2009.06.02 13:00 - myself as an appearance

The Guardian for this meeting was Lia Rikugun. The comments are by Lia Rikugun.

 

sophia Placebo: hello lia
Lia Rikugun: hello sophia
Lia Rikugun: you are going to have a theme session on saturday right?
sophia Placebo: yes :)
Lia Rikugun: hehe yes, but maybe we shouldnt talk about this yet
sophia Placebo: sl is funny today
Lia Rikugun: really?
Lia Rikugun: why?
sophia Placebo: i dont know , wouldnt let me sit easly
Lia Rikugun: :) hehe this happens sometimes
Lia Rikugun: how long have you been doing PaB?
Lia Rikugun: did we meet before in SL?
sophia Placebo: not so long
sophia Placebo: maybe who knows :)
Lia Rikugun: :) well it is very nice to meet you
Lia Rikugun: so how have you come to PaB?
sophia Placebo: hehe nice to meet you too lia
Lia Rikugun: helo Wol
sophia Placebo: through kira workshops
sophia Placebo: hello wol
Wol Euler: hello sophia, lia

Daniel Dennet's book - "The Mind's I" and trying to see the self as an appearance

Lia Rikugun: currently i am reading a book from daniel dennet
Lia Rikugun: in german its "einsicht ins ich"
Lia Rikugun: looking for the english title...
sophia Placebo: intersting book so far ?
Lia Rikugun: about the "I"
Wol Euler: hmmmm
Lia Rikugun: i started reading this because i wanted to see myself as appearance
Lia Rikugun: which i thought was very difficult
Wol Euler nods
Lia Rikugun: well still think so ;)
Lia Rikugun: hello travieso
sophia Placebo: brb
Wol Euler: hello travieso
Wol Euler smiles across at Trav. We don't bite...
Travieso Sella: that's what htey all say
sophia Placebo: back , hello trav
Lia Rikugun: :)
Travieso Sella: hey
Wol Euler: :)
sophia Placebo: where you find it difficult to see yourself as appearnce lia?
Lia Rikugun: because it is me who sees appearances
Lia Rikugun: what can be seen when detached from me
Lia Rikugun: .. in this way
Lia Rikugun: (wow i closed my eyes and went into a djungel :))
Lia Rikugun: (because of the sounds)
sophia Placebo: hmm, one cant tell if he is short or tall if he lived alone , but can see - the diffrence and resemblance- if he copare and relate to others lenghths
Lia Rikugun: can you explain a little more sophia please
sophia Placebo: well i agree with you that i cant too see myself as appearnace from a point of veiw of something not an appearnce
Lia Rikugun: so in which way detach from the self?
Lia Rikugun: or see it as appearance
sophia Placebo: comparing i guess
Lia Rikugun: compare myself to others?
sophia Placebo: but without detachment me thinks
sophia Placebo: to other appearances
Lia Rikugun: ok

mickorod joins us

sophia Placebo: hello mick
Wol Euler: hell mick, ara
sophia Placebo: hello ara
arabella Ella: hiya
Mickorod Renard: Hiya
Lia Rikugun: hello ara hello fael
Wol Euler: and hello fael
Lia Rikugun: hello mick
sophia Placebo: hello fael
Fael Illyar: Hi Wol, Travieso, Lia, Sophia, ara, Mick :)
Mickorod Renard: howz it all going?
Lia Rikugun: very good and with you mick?
Mickorod Renard: Hi Trav..are you new?
Mickorod Renard: yes,,I am fine ty
Travieso Sella: hi
Travieso Sella: nope
Travieso Sella: I gtg though
Travieso Sella: I'll cy u guys later
Mickorod Renard: ok..grin..
sophia Placebo: bye trav
Mickorod Renard: ok,,c u
Lia Rikugun: byebye
Fael Illyar: See you Travieso :)
Wol Euler: bye travieso
arabella Ella: it's quiet here tonite
arabella Ella: anyone got anything to discuss?
Mickorod Renard: some of you ladies get through some changes of clothes in a week
Wol Euler grins
sophia Placebo: lia asked about how to see self as appearnce
Fael Illyar smiles 'Well, need to dress in something and ... Well, I'm not always feeling like wearing the same ones.'
arabella Ella smiles
Mickorod Renard: grin

appreciate yourself, appreciate everything around you

Mickorod Renard: the problem with apperance is in what context
Fael Illyar: see self as appearance? might be more helpful if you could detail what's in the way.
Lia Rikugun: as i try to see everything as appearances or appreciate the presneence of appearances i tried to see myself as appearance as well
Lia Rikugun: and still think it is difficult
arabella Ella nods
arabella Ella: i think so too Lia
arabella Ella: it is not easy
Lia Rikugun: in the way is that I myself can appreaciate the presence of appearances
Lia Rikugun: but how can i detach from myself and still appreciate the presence of appearances...
Lia Rikugun: :)
Lia Rikugun: or see appreanaces and myself as appearances
Lia Rikugun: hehe
Mickorod Renard: well,,I sometimes think that we all have diferent idea's or approaches to these thiings
Lia Rikugun: so what is your approach
Mickorod Renard: well,,I dont realy go in that direction much,,I am having to dig deep in my thoughts
Lia Rikugun: in what direction do you go mick?
Lia Rikugun: what is important for you?
Fael Illyar: to appreciate yourself... perhaps the first thing that's needed is to accept yourself as you are.
Fael Illyar: as in, no feelings of "this or that must be changed right now"
Mickorod Renard: prestently I am apreciating appearance of other things around me..or the world in general
Lia Rikugun: i can understand that
Mickorod Renard: Fael is in the mind I was thinking
Lia Rikugun: so you think this is more important the appreciation
Lia Rikugun: instead of the appearance
Mickorod Renard: I think we accept ourselves as what we have learnt to become
Mickorod Renard: and maybe it is the undressing of that, which is important
Lia Rikugun: I understand
arabella Ella: if i may ask ... is this the same as what we were discussing yesterday ... appreciating being?
Mickorod Renard: to take time out to examine ourselves, our motives etc
Fael Illyar: to appreciate yourself... take a look at what this yourself is and accept that right now it is that which you see.
Lia Rikugun: i dont think this is what I wanted to say
Mickorod Renard: try again Lia
Lia Rikugun: :) actually i was more refering to the appearance part
Lia Rikugun: i can appreaciate myself
Mickorod Renard: I am not suer it reflects visual appearance so much
Lia Rikugun: but i wanted to try to see if this "me" if I can see it as an appearance only
Fael Illyar: the "appearance" here definitel has nothing to do with visual appearance
Lia Rikugun: exactly
Fael Illyar: or well, it includes that too
Fael Illyar: but much more than just that

see yourself visually as you see others -> we are not so different

Mickorod Renard: I have tried to see myself visually as I do others
Lia Rikugun: and?
Mickorod Renard: and it brought to mind that i am like others,,flesh and blood,,with a life story, and responsibilities....it put me back into context
Mickorod Renard: I had become too insular
Lia Rikugun: you are like others but you are not
Lia Rikugun: for you you are not
arabella Ella: do you mean 'like the others' in the sense of no superiority Mickorod?
Mickorod Renard: yes,,but one mustnt forget that others are also individuals too, with thier emotions and idea;s
Lia Rikugun: of course
Lia Rikugun: :)
Mickorod Renard: I meant that I am an individual in a collective
Mickorod Renard: and should not isolate myself, by thinking perhaps that I am superior

evberybody has different ways and approaches of 'seeing'

arabella Ella: one important related thing for me from yesterday was that Stim said we all have different ways of 'seeing' ... some visual, some physical, some tactile, some intuitive, etc
Mickorod Renard: I think this opens up avenues of exploration
arabella Ella: and that is one reason why we are not given too much specific direction
arabella Ella: but we are asked to find our own direction
Mickorod Renard: I have explored many aspects of myself,,outside play as being and recently within
Lia Rikugun: so what have you learned mick?
Mickorod Renard: its a very evocative subject
Mickorod Renard: by learning about myself i am learning about others too
Lia Rikugun: :) you start to understand a little bit more
Mickorod Renard: yes
Lia Rikugun: this is my experience as well
Mickorod Renard: we all comefrom diferent walks of life,,and in some way feel we are diferent because,,,,..but here we discover that we harbour similar idea's
Mickorod Renard: I like to think I have a great social concience,,but deep inside I want to give myself a better standard of living
Lia Rikugun: yes i made the experience that by opeing up and having all kind of discussion with other people I could realize how people have same ideas
Lia Rikugun: even though i didnt expect that
Mickorod Renard: a conflict
Mickorod Renard: yes,,sometimes its the deep routed thoughts about ourselves that can hold us back
Mickorod Renard: stop us from enjoying what is
Lia Rikugun: the idea fo yourself exactly
Lia Rikugun: not yourself "ourselves" sorry ;)
Mickorod Renard: yes, both

new revelations like seeing the future through spiritual practice ;) - the clear moments

Mickorod Renard: I think I began to think that through spiritual practice there would be some revelation
sophia Placebo: still thinking of detaching from self to appreciate the presence of self - sounds tempty
Mickorod Renard: like seeing into the future, or,,x ray vision,,or silly things like that
Lia Rikugun: so? anything of that mick?
Mickorod Renard: noooo...but what you can see,,i believe,,,is what is just there
Lia Rikugun: I believe i got a better feeling for people somehow
Lia Rikugun: through being more aware
Mickorod Renard: if we took time to see,,and reflect
Lia Rikugun: so how do you just see and reflect?
Lia Rikugun: you mean stop thinking so much?
Fael Illyar: more like not creating new thoughts and if any thoughts come up, just let them be.
Mickorod Renard: I think i think more,,,but in the sense i think you mean,,yes, get rid of the distracting noise of regular thoughts
Lia Rikugun: ok still trying on that :)
Lia Rikugun: i get some clear moments but not very often
Mickorod Renard: same here
Fael Illyar: once you realize how, it's easy. Until then it feels hard.
Lia Rikugun: :)
Mickorod Renard: build up on the succesful moments
Mickorod Renard: dont forget them,,but instead let them create an identity you can call back
Fael Illyar: Sometimes, I've managed to return to the clarity of those moments by recalling them. Although, when I recall them with the intent to return, it often doesn't work that well.
Fael Illyar: Works the best when the moment comes to mind because I'm talking to someone else and want to talk o that.
sophia Placebo: nods
Mickorod Renard: yes,,I think there are many ways,,but for most I think that is why they set aside meditation times
Mickorod Renard: which I dont
Mickorod Renard: I remember when we first discused some of this,,people came up with idea's..like standin on hills with the wind blowing
Lia Rikugun: hello kenji
Mickorod Renard: othersstanding on a beach watchin seaguls fly

kenji is joining us and at this moment I had to leave SL and will not try to comment on the following

kenji Pookes: Hi everyone
sophia Placebo: hi kenji
Lia Rikugun: have you been here before kenji?
Mickorod Renard: Hi Ken
Wol Euler: hello kenji
Mickorod Renard: yes,,Ken is a regular
Fael Illyar is finding herself falling asleep at the keyboard...
Lia Rikugun: ok wonderful
Fael Illyar: I'd better head to bed :)
Fael Illyar: Good night everyone :)
Lia Rikugun: yes actually me to: time for bed
Mickorod Renard: nite Fael
Lia Rikugun: good night fael
sophia Placebo: goodnight fael happy dreams
Wol Euler: bye fael, take care
kenji Pookes: It was great chatting with you Fael.
Mickorod Renard: he he
Fael Illyar: Hi and bye Kenji :)
sophia Placebo: :)
Mickorod Renard: you have scared her of Ken
Lia Rikugun: mick i will post the log tomorrow ok?
Mickorod Renard: ok cool,,no rush
kenji Pookes: I'm sure I did.
Lia Rikugun: good bye everyone
Lia Rikugun: was nice to talk to you!
Mickorod Renard: bye Lia
sophia Placebo: bye lia
Fael Illyar: I really am falling asleep here though...
Wol Euler: :)
Mickorod Renard: do you still go down to the beach Ara?
sophia Placebo: i need to go to bed too
Mickorod Renard: nite Sophia
sophia Placebo: see you all soon
kenji Pookes: Wow. I'm beginning to feel quite self-conscious.
Wol Euler: bye sophia, ttake care
kenji Pookes: Bye
arabella Ella is nodding off too ... dreaming of the beach
Wol Euler: bad timing, Ken, you arrived just after the hour
arabella Ella: )while in wet Potsdam at the moment)
kenji Pookes: Oh well. Had a busy time napping, actually.
Mickorod Renard: do you live near a beach Ken?
kenji Pookes: No, I live in Austin, Texas. No beaches around here. Right in the middle of the state.
Mickorod Renard: oh yea,,I remem
kenji Pookes: I grew up near a beach, though.
Mickorod Renard: so do you find anywhere near you that is tranquil etc?
Mickorod Renard: like watchin the sand blow?
kenji Pookes: Hmm. I really don't have time to watch sand blow. I have two kids.
Mickorod Renard: he he he
kenji Pookes: But I tend to make my own tranquility. I've really never needed tranquil places.
Mickorod Renard: I love the sky
Mickorod Renard: I was looking at clouds today
Mickorod Renard: fantastic colours and shapes
Mickorod Renard: all diferent hights and consistancies
arabella Ella: nite everyone gotta go now
arabella Ella: lovely seeing u here!
kenji Pookes: Good night
Mickorod Renard: nite ara,,I have to leave too
Wol Euler: bye ara, take care
Wol Euler: and bye mick, goodnight
Mickorod Renard: hope you dont mind,,but I have an appointment
kenji Pookes: Good night Mick. Enjoy the sky.
Mickorod Renard: cheers
kenji Pookes: Well, it's just us.
Wol Euler: and I am stuck in two IMs at the same time, sorry :)
kenji Pookes: I hate when that happens.
Wol Euler: a friend has decided to go to university in his mid _thirties
Wol Euler: didn't even finish high school
Wol Euler: I am teaching him how to write a research paper
kenji Pookes: I see. That's quite a challenge.
kenji Pookes: I'll let you go and do that. Important to help out your friend. Talk to you later.
Wol Euler: sorry :)
Wol Euler: bye for now, kenji
kenji Pookes: Cheers.