2009.06.12 13:00 - The motivation workshop

Wol Euler was guardian for this session. Comments coming soon, I hope.

Fael Illyar: Hi Trav :)

Travieso Sella: hello

Travieso Sella: Do you have a topic you want to discuss?

Fael Illyar: No, haven't had one for ages :)

Wol Euler: hello Fael, Travi

Fael Illyar: Hi Wol :)

Travieso Sella: hey wol

Fael Illyar: Hi Wester :)

Fael Illyar: Ah, you're the guardian for today Wol?

Wol Euler: I believe so :)

Wester Kiranov: hi wol, fael, travieso

Travieso Sella: hello

Wol Euler: Solo asked for cover for two weeks, I htink this is the second of them

Wol Euler: hello wester

Fael Illyar: Ah, yes, I think I recall something of the sort :)

Wol Euler: hello star

Fael Illyar: Hi Star :)

Wester Kiranov: hi star

Stargate Tone: Hello Wol , Fael, Wester and Travieso :)*

Wol Euler: does anyone have a topic for us today?

Fael Illyar: meep :)

Stargate Tone: _/!\_

Wol Euler: Meep Meep ;P :p:P :p :P

Fael Illyar: Hi Mick :)

Wol Euler: hello mick

Stargate Tone: how about joy or joy or joy ..or...:)***

Wester Kiranov: hey mickey

Mickorod Renard: Hiya everyone

Stargate Tone: Hi Mickorod

Travieso Sella: Well, mine is human motivation, that is what gets people motivated and willing to do things rather than be lazy or something else.

Mickorod Renard: ;)

Wol Euler: hello gayabunny

Wester Kiranov: yeah, i could use some ;)

Mickorod Renard: hi Gaya

Travieso Sella: What's gets people motivated and or energied to work?

Wester Kiranov: hi gaya

Gaya Ethaniel: Hello everyone :)

Wol Euler: Joy is a motivator, I think; people are glad to do things that they think will give them that.

Mickorod Renard: I am motivated cos I like avin something to do

Fael Illyar: Hi Gaya :)

Mickorod Renard: yea,,there is like a paradox,,like i like doin nice things for people,,bu that in itself is selfish cos I enjoy it

Wol Euler frowns. Who said that good works had to feel bad?

Mickorod Renard: grin,,well spose it doesnt..but I do feel like I do nice things cos I want to

Fael Illyar: Hi Fef :)

Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Fefonz :)

Mickorod Renard: In the past that always seemed a pain,,cos I only wanted to do for myself

Wester Kiranov: hi fef

Wol Euler: hello Fefonz

Mickorod Renard: Hiya fef

Fefonz Quan: hello hello :)

Gaya Ethaniel: :)

Wol Euler: what do you mean, Mick?

Mickorod Renard: well,,thats the paradox

Gaya Ethaniel: Do you mean you want to be able to do things for others when it doesn't necessarily make you feel good Mick?

Mickorod Renard: cos I am now trapped in this love for wanting to spread good,,but sometimes i wonder whether i do it just to make myself feel good about myself

Wol Euler: that depends on how the feeling good arises, I would say.

Mickorod Renard: dont worry, I dont loose sleep over it

Gaya Ethaniel: Sorry brb

Gaya Ethaniel: /afk

Wol Euler: if it comes from within you, as a result of what you see yourself doing, then IMHO it's not a bad motivation

Wol Euler: if it comes from the gratitude and humble thanks you expect to receive, that might be different.

Fael Illyar: as a motivation, it's great but ... do you do it because you feel you need it?

Wol Euler: because that puts you in a different relation to the others

Mickorod Renard: I feel mbarrased if I recieve thanks

Travieso Sella: I don't know. Even when I'm doing things just for myself, I have trouble get motivated, as one does sometimes. I've just been wondering how to find motivatin to get things done, not necceasrily my philosophy behind kind acts.

Fael Illyar: Motivation is a tough subject.

Fefonz Quan: lack of it is harder

Mickorod Renard: maybe it was the loss of motivation in doin for myself that I found motivation in doing for others

Fael Illyar: At least for me, if I feel I'd like to get something done but can't get motivated, there's some reason for that.

Fael Illyar: something I believe that makes the prospect of doing it seem uninviting, even with the expected good that comes out of getting it done.

Wester Kiranov: I think so too, but how are you going to find that reason?

Fefonz Quan: sometimes it is just basic laziness from my side

Wester Kiranov: And it might be intrinsic, something in what you think you want to do, or extrinsic, like fear.

Mickorod Renard: some things..like tidying the kitchen , for me is not motivating,,as it looks a mess an hour later

Fefonz Quan: i agree with that mick.

Travieso Sella: yeah, fear, laziness, both things I can relate to, as well as the kicthen

Wol Euler: :)

Mickorod Renard: but I do find motivation if I see a lasting legacy

Fael Illyar feels laziness is too broad of a term to mean anything useful.

Fefonz Quan: what do you mean by lasting legacy?

Mickorod Renard: I mean something you may be able to observe later and be able to feel good about my input

Fael Illyar: something you can look at and think "ah, I'm so happy I did that"?

Wester Kiranov: for me, calling something lazy is just an excuse to beat myself up about it

Wester Kiranov: not helpful at all

Mickorod Renard: true

Wol Euler: mmhmm

Fefonz Quan: mostly i find this 'laziness' arises when the tasks are boring/unpleasant etc.

Travieso Sella: Well perhaps it's simply lack of motivation.

Mickorod Renard: there is a danger in this group,,that we are learning to see diferent values,,this in turn may make regular chores seem rather meaningless

Fefonz Quan: yes there is Mick

Travieso Sella: And someone once told me there are no lazy people. I'm a bit sketpical about that though.

Wol Euler: "differently energetic" perhaps.

Fefonz Quan: he was too lazy to clasify them better :)

Fael Illyar: there is no 'laziness'. Just different fears.

Fael Illyar: and expectations

Fefonz Quan: i am not sure Fael. if something is very boring (dishes), what do i fear?

Fael Illyar: the unpleasant time you will have washing them.

Wol Euler: might that be resentment rather than boredom?

Fefonz Quan: yes, that's true. but that makes fear a very general term

Wol Euler: the feeling "I should not have to do this"

Fael Illyar: do you have a better term to propose as the general term?

Fefonz Quan: not i should not (who else will?), but just 'i need to do it, yet it is so boring, i don't enjoy it a bit'

Fefonz Quan: )

Fefonz Quan: no, i wanted more specific terms Fael :)

Mickorod Renard: I have a friend,,its called a dishwasher,,it has done more for me than anyone (in manual work) with exception of my parents.(now dead)

Wol Euler: :)

Fefonz Quan: i got him too lately Mick, great great joy!

Fael Illyar: it is very specific too. Fear is just a very common feature of our minds.

Wol Euler washes the dishes by hand, by choice, and enjoys doing it.

Mickorod Renard: I love my dishwasher

Wol Euler: hello Ninja

Fael Illyar: for example, my own dislike of washing dishes...

Ninja Easterman: hellooo what happennen

Fael Illyar: I recently had an experience of joyously washing the mountain of dishes I had piling up.

Wol Euler: you've been here before, haven't you?

Mickorod Renard: Hi Ninja

Wol Euler: I think I remember your av

Travieso Sella: Sometimes I like doing the dishes, and sometimes it's the lat thing I want to think about. And I'll go through phases where I'm very productive and phases where I'm just wasting time.

Wol Euler: yes, fael.

Fefonz Quan: yes Fael, i agree it has much more to do with my state of mind than with the dishes.

Fael Illyar: I found I was punishing myself for not having done them faster the entire time washing them usually.

Gaya Ethaniel quitely slips back on her cushion.

Wol Euler: wb gaya

Fefonz Quan: in a way, sitting in meditation with closed eyes is more boring, but i enjoy it

Mickorod Renard: I am so lazy I wud hate having to load and empty the dishwasher,,but its a chance for me to bond with it

Wol Euler: Ninja, I'll give you an intro in IM so that we don't disturb the others

Fefonz Quan: yet the dishes need some Effort to do them, which is an important parameter here

Fael Illyar: yes, but it's not the physical effort that's the key. It's the mental effort

Mickorod Renard: washing dishes in my house is like digging a hole in a very dry sandy desert

Fefonz Quan: both i would say. there is no more mental effort in doing dishes than in watching TV, but if i could do them sitting on the couch, not moving, it will be easier

Wol Euler: actually, at least for me being lazy is not about conserving energy.

Wol Euler: I've noticed that when I am lazy about doing X, I spend just as much time and energy on Y instead

Fefonz Quan: (in fact i do that while meditating when the dishwasher is working. much more fun Fael :))

Fael Illyar: doing the dishes itself does not take much mental effort, agreed. But everything else you're used to doing while washing them does...

Fael Illyar: perhaps after too

Ninja Easterman: cool..

Fael Illyar: before I learned to leave the extra mental effort out, it was quite taxing work.

Fefonz Quan: well, in a way it is similar to teh cooking before the meal, yet i have no troubles with the cooking.

Mickorod Renard: I have observed that many people..(me included at times) spend more effort trying to get out of a task,,than the effort needed to just do it

Wol Euler: yes mick!

Fefonz Quan nods

Wol Euler: how silly, but I do it too.

Fael Illyar: Hi Scath :)

Mickorod Renard: Hi Scath

Wol Euler: hello scath

Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Fael, all:)

Fefonz Quan: Hi Scath

Ninja Easterman: tasks i do i do not finish ...

Fael Illyar: That's always rooted in the extra mental effort we're used to doing but don't know we're doing.

Mickorod Renard: I have built upon this observation,,and now do find I am less lazy,,in this way

Wester Kiranov: in some way I tend to feel that washing up is not really part of the meal, while cooking is

Mickorod Renard: I am guilty of that NInja

Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Scath (finally caught up

Wol Euler nods. Good point

Scathach Rhiadra: :)

Mickorod Renard: I often start something,,then loose interest

Wester Kiranov: same here mick

Ninja Easterman: thats why im on here now....gave up to many half finished projects

Mickorod Renard: I do like to feel a buzz

Wol Euler smiles

Mickorod Renard: grin

Gaya Ethaniel shrugs ... those things I just accept I have to do it ... like other necessary activities ie sleep.

Fefonz Quan: agree with Wester, but for me there is another difference: i find the cooking creative, hence 'interesting', while the washing is just cleaning up, routine and boring

Mickorod Renard: I am not much of a cooker..but i can relate to that thought

Mickorod Renard: and to Gaya

Ninja Easterman: barbecue no mess in house just cook and eat...lol

Wester Kiranov: I did have a time when cooking was getting boring too, but I got out of that. Maybe it is possible to do something similar with the rest of the meal?

Fefonz Quan: i suspect i was too lucky till now so i have very little tasks i need to do and don't want to.

Gaya Ethaniel: I mean ... I don't think cats put a lot of thoughts about grooming themselves much.

Fefonz Quan: maybe children will solve that ;-)

Fael Illyar: I took washing dishes routine, non creative ... until I let go of the idea that it has to be that.

Mickorod Renard: I think cats get an instinktive stimulus

Gaya Ethaniel: Why attach values to those basic activities?

Mickorod Renard: excuse the play on words

Wol Euler: yes, gaya, value is the key, I think.

Wol Euler: I've found that once I actually make myself do something, that the doing itself is not nearly as bad (dull, effortful, annoying) as I had told myself it would be

Fefonz Quan: yes, very true Wol

Wester Kiranov: Actually, I think we don't value those basic activities enough

Fefonz Quan: seems it is a nice place for APA practice

Wester Kiranov: We don't really see their importance

Mickorod Renard: I remember when I was younger,,I had this idea that domestication was a conspiracy to make people conform and loose the real objective in life

Wol Euler: yes, fef :)

Ninja Easterman: have to keep on top off it.....then not much work at all.......

Fael Illyar: (in my case, I was giving washing dishes negative value)

Wester Kiranov: ok, next time we do the dishes we do APA with it

Gaya Ethaniel ponders ... value ... appreciation ... interesting.

Ninja Easterman: smoke doobie dishes be realy clean...

Mickorod Renard: get paper dishes

Wol Euler: shocking!

Wol Euler: the enviornment!!

Gaya Ethaniel: So starting with giving values can be positive yet can be problematic in Fael's example.

Ninja Easterman: just thinken that tooo

Ninja Easterman: bad bad

Wol Euler: :)

Fefonz Quan: i also see that my general state of mind makes a lot of difference when comeing to these 'boring' task. when in a good mood, i will do anything and enjoy it.

Mickorod Renard: hey,,there is proberbly less polution in discarded paper dishes than detergent and water waste

Wol Euler: not if you factor in _making_ the paper plate, surely?

Mickorod Renard: mmmm..not sure

Fefonz Quan: recycled paper Wol ?

Ninja Easterman: true true i just use a water at times...why not

Wol Euler admits to using paper plates at barbecues and picnics.

Gaya Ethaniel: With a right choice of the machine and usage, using dishwasher can be greener than doing them by hand (I don't have dishwasher btw).

Mickorod Renard: I suppose this is all about,,'what is the meaning of life'' in the end

Ninja Easterman: paperplates can not recycle ....

Fael Illyar: well, you can burn them for energy :)

Ninja Easterman: true

Fefonz Quan: 'those who burn paperplates will one day burn books' ;-)

Wol Euler: most of our discussions are about that, Mick :)

Gaya Ethaniel: :)

Mickorod Renard: make them outa rice paper,,then eat them afterwards

Fael Illyar: aah, rice paper plates... sounds a nice idea :)

Fefonz Quan: now we understand why in certain monestaries the monks endure years of washing dishes and floor sweeping before starting the 'real' practice

Ninja Easterman: ah there yeah go

Gaya Ethaniel: hm ... you can't eat rice paper Mick.

Fael Illyar: oh?

Mickorod Renard: I thought you cud?

Wol Euler: actually, there are some kinds of paper that are edible, used in baking.

Gaya Ethaniel: Maybe you are thinking about rice crackers I don't know >.<

Wol Euler: maybe not rice ...

Wol Euler: yeah, really big crackers.

Mickorod Renard: well,,something edible then

Mickorod Renard: ;)

Gaya Ethaniel: We are concerned about *how* we live our lives I guess.

Fefonz Quan: Mick, instead of the rice paper you can just eat with the hands from the central pot, if we go there...

Mickorod Renard: wont it need washing?

Fefonz Quan: just one element though, instead of a table full of silverware

Ninja Easterman: water wash it

Wol Euler: I suppose you could let teh dogs lick it clean ...

Wester Kiranov: or the ants...

Fefonz Quan: we are getting off topic totally, sorry

Mickorod Renard: I suppose the crux is,,what would we do with the extra time?

Wol Euler: more SL!

Fefonz Quan: yeah!

Mickorod Renard: he he he

Wester Kiranov: :D

Ninja Easterman: what was topic any way

Gaya Ethaniel: :)

Fael Illyar: propably something you like :)

Mickorod Renard: its not lazy if we do something with our spare time

Wester Kiranov: topic was motivation

Ninja Easterman: ah i need some a that..lol

Fael Illyar: the best way to be motivated is to like doing whatever it is.

Mickorod Renard: yes

Fefonz Quan: i again come back to our general approach and mood.

Ninja Easterman: martial art is good for that very good...

Fefonz Quan: one week ago i was on a vacation in my homeland, and i can tell you going to the IRA and feeling forms was very delightful

Wester Kiranov: appreciate the presence of appearance of dishes as a presentation by Being?

Fael Illyar smiles.

Wol Euler: because it meant "home", Fef?

Mickorod Renard: grin

Fefonz Quan: yes, because i was happy where i was, so simple

Wol Euler has an idea.

Wol Euler: I would like to suggest a workshop.

Mickorod Renard: I left england because of the rain,,now I am back I love the rain,,water is the esence of life..water is beautiful

Fael Illyar smiles.

Wol Euler: For a week, take something that comes up more than once (ideally every day) that you dislike doing

Ninja Easterman: water is for sale...

Gaya Ethaniel agrees yet wishes for a drish summer.

Wol Euler: and try to do it with Appreciation

Wol Euler: seeing it as it really is, doing it with care and thought and consideration

Wol Euler: without judging it at all.

Fefonz Quan: yes great idea Wol

Wol Euler: (or maybe a month of things that you do only once or twice a week)

Fefonz Quan: just needs some motivation to initialize :)

Mickorod Renard: mmmm..I think I have got rid of all tose things

Wol Euler: the motivation is that I will kick your sorry arse if you don't :-PPPPPPP

Ninja Easterman: see yeah

Wester Kiranov: it actually fits in very well with looking more closely at food as I was already doing for Stims "class"

Wol Euler: it's a workshop.

Travieso Sella: I like that idea Wol

Fael Illyar: rid as in not doing them anymore or rid as in not having things you dislike anymore?

Fefonz Quan: yes, fear will get us a long way wol :)

Wol Euler: :)

Mickorod Renard: rid of ,,not doing them anymore

Wol Euler: a better motivation is that trying this might free you of a source of unhappiness in your life.

Mickorod Renard: although sleeping is frustrating

Fefonz Quan: oh, sleeping is great Mick!

Fael Illyar: sleeping with appreciation :)

Wester Kiranov: not sleeping is frustrating

Mickorod Renard: I suppose its the tiredness that is frustrating

Wester Kiranov: I very much appreciate the sleep i get

Fefonz Quan: mick, it is like saying chocolate is frustrating because of the hunger

Mickorod Renard: well,,i love chocolate

Mickorod Renard: but sleep takes up time

Fefonz Quan: ok, that is very individual

Wol Euler: ah!

Wol Euler: mick, this can be your subject for the workshop

Mickorod Renard: ok

Wol Euler: try to just "do" sleeping, without assigning it a value

Wol Euler: don't feel that it takes away X or gives you Y, just be calm and neutral and do it

Mickorod Renard: usually i am so nackered i dont think about it,,but wud have liked to have not slept if posible

Fefonz Quan: aha, smart Mick got the easy tasks :) can i get the chocolate?

Wol Euler: hahahahah

Gaya Ethaniel: What would you do instead of sleeping Mick?

Fael Illyar: feeling that sleep is taking time from you is assuming you have that time in the first place :)

Fefonz Quan: [13:59] Gaya Ethaniel: What would you do instead of sleeping Mick? 0---> washing dishes!

Gaya Ethaniel: :)

Wol Euler laughs and thwaps Fef with a cushion

Fefonz Quan: fong!

Fefonz Quan: agree with Fael here

Mickorod Renard: I hve so much i want to read and hobbies too that I like doing

Travieso Sella: okay have a good day folks. I'm glad I got to discuss this.

Fael Illyar: See you later Trav :)

Gaya Ethaniel: Bye Travieso :)

Wol Euler smiles. Goodnight Travi, take care.

Fefonz Quan: Bye Travie

Mickorod Renard: bye trav

Scathach Rhiadra: bye Travieso

Gaya Ethaniel: Yes Mick, there are so much I want to do too :)

Travieso Sella: _/!\_

Wester Kiranov: and you have to appreciate your cigars too mick - just don't smoke in bed ;-)

Wol Euler: !

Scathach Rhiadra: and good night from me too, Namaste:)

Fefonz Quan: bye Scath

Gaya Ethaniel: Good night Scath :)

Wol Euler: goodnight scath, take care.

Wester Kiranov: bye scath

Gaya Ethaniel: hm ... that itself is a wonderful thing.

Mickorod Renard: bye scath

Gaya Ethaniel: There are so much one would like to do. :)

Wol Euler: mmhmm

Fael Illyar: just... Mick, even if you could avoid sleeping, you wouldn't feel like you'd be getting things done any faster ... at least after a few days.

Mickorod Renard: ok,,I have to go home,,see you and thanks

Fefonz Quan: yes, we are approaching some real limitations here

Wol Euler: bye mick, enjoy the weekend

Fael Illyar: See you later Mick :)

Fefonz Quan: Night Mick

Fael Illyar: happy sleeping :)

Wol Euler: and do the workshop!

Mickorod Renard: nite everyone..xx

Gaya Ethaniel: Good night MIck :)

Wester Kiranov: think i'll go wash the dishes then :-)

Wester Kiranov: bye all

Wol Euler smiles and nods.

Gaya Ethaniel: :) Bye Wester.

Fefonz Quan: bye Wester

Fael Illyar: see you later Wester :)

Wol Euler: I meant that quite seriously :)

Ninja Easterman: bye bye was cool

Wol Euler: goodnight wester, take care

Fefonz Quan: Ninja surely left a mark

Wol Euler: indeed.

Fael Illyar: well, they're fading already :)

Gaya Ethaniel: What did I miss? O.o

Wol Euler: bloody footprints and hand marks

Gaya Ethaniel: ah ... that.

Fael Illyar: bloody footstep particles.

Fefonz Quan: maybe just red, why bloody?

Gaya Ethaniel: :)

Wol Euler shrugs.

Wol Euler: I found blood somehow more likely than having stepped in a puddle of red paint.

Wol Euler: perhaps an association with his name

Fael Illyar: yes, me too.

Fefonz Quan: muddy is quite more common...

Gaya Ethaniel: oh! ty Fefonz.

Wol Euler: but mud usually isn't the colour known as "blood red"

Fael Illyar: mud color tends to be quite different...

Fefonz Quan: that wasn't either

Fael Illyar: but it's good to remember it cold be muddy too.

Wol Euler nods

Gaya Ethaniel: I thought of it as blood only after I heard from Fael and Wol ... looks like I tend to lean on what people say first.

Fefonz Quan: yes, i didn't think of it as blood too

Gaya Ethaniel: This actually relates to my preference in checking with others more than myself.

Gaya Ethaniel: So thanks :)

Fael Illyar smiles.

Wol Euler smiles.

Fefonz Quan too

Wol Euler: well, the conversation seems to have reached a natural end. Shall we adjourn?

Gaya Ethaniel: Who's the GoC?

Wol Euler: me

Fefonz Quan: i guess we shell, whatever adjourn means

Fefonz Quan: :)

Fael Illyar: end the meeting it means :)

Wol Euler: "be finished"

Gaya Ethaniel: Solo can't make it anymore?

Wol Euler: no, just for these two weeks

Wol Euler: I hope

Fefonz Quan: ah, good

Gaya Ethaniel: ah ok

Wol Euler: mmhmm

Gaya Ethaniel: Fefonz, if you have time maybe you can tell me of the examples you mentioned in the previous log?

Gaya Ethaniel: [my email]

Fefonz Quan: yes, i can, but it will be less private...