Wol Euler recovered this session from the autologging database. Adlene was the guardian.
Wester Kiranov: hi zen
Zen Arado: Hi WEster
Questa Blackheart: Hi.
Zen Arado: not exactly a big crowd then :)
Questa Blackheart: I was here few days ago.
Zen Arado: Hi Questa
Wester Kiranov: hi questa
Questa Blackheart: Hi. May I join you?
Zen Arado: I haven't been for a while
Zen Arado: sure
Questa Blackheart: Thanks.
Zen Arado: are you the leader Questa?
Questa Blackheart: No. I'm new.
Zen Arado: soryy Wester I meant
Questa Blackheart: There is a leader?
Zen Arado: usually I thought
Wester Kiranov: Im not the GoC if thats what you mean
Questa Blackheart: Hello Adelene.
Wester Kiranov: hi ade
Zen Arado: Hi Adelene
Adelene Dawner: I'm the Goc today - sorry I'm late.
Zen Arado: Ah
Wester Kiranov: if you have any questions questa, feel free to ask
Questa Blackheart: Well, I've read the note...
Wester Kiranov: hi yaku
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone here
Questa Blackheart: I'm just wondering how you all find so much to talk about for 4 hours every day.
Questa Blackheart: Hi Yakuzza.
Wester Kiranov: sometimes we just sit quietly...
Questa Blackheart: And do you sit quietly in real life at the same time?
Zen Arado: Hi Yakuzza
Yakuzza Lethecus: I already managed to sit quietly and was asleep in real life, in fact that happened to me last night :)
Questa Blackheart: :)
Zen Arado: I meditate twice a day
Wester Kiranov: and sometimes we like to talk, to make things clearer or just because we enjoy communicating
Questa Blackheart: What do you like to talk about?
Zen Arado: everything :)
Wester Kiranov: have you taken a look at the chat logs? they're in the wiki
Questa Blackheart: That's quite a big subject. :)
Zen Arado: usually somebody introduces a topic
Questa Blackheart: Yes, I have. I was waiting for my last visit to appear but it hasn't yet.
Questa Blackheart: Probably my ego dictating things. :)
Wester Kiranov: :)
Zen Arado: I was at an interesting talk earlier
Zen Arado: about whether children should have a more authoritarian education
Wester Kiranov: and what did they say about that?
Zen Arado: Stephen Law I think was the guys name
Questa Blackheart: I have two children. Did they come to a conclusion?
Zen Arado: http://www.amazon.co.uk/War-Children...4319333&sr=8-4
Questa Blackheart: Sorry, I spoke when I shouldn't
Wester Kiranov: np
Zen Arado: 'The War for Children's Minds is a brilliantly clear and convincingly argued defence of liberalism in moral education. Stephen Law examines and demolishes all the arguments in favour of authoritarian ways of teaching, and shows that in spite of the insistence of popular commentators from the religious right, a liberal and rational examination and discussion of moral questions does not lead to relativism and the decay of ethical behaviour, but can in fact be the best defence against them. This book won't be read by popular journalists: they will attack it without reading it. But it should be read by every teacher, every parent, and every politician. What's more, it should form the subject for discussion in every church, synagogue, mosque, and religious youth group. It's one of the most engaging as well as one of the most necessary books that I've ever read in the field of moral education.' - Philip Pullman
Questa Blackheart: THE Philip Pullman? :)
Wester Kiranov: So it's about older children?
Zen Arado: he more or less argues that children should be taught to question things
Zen Arado: ah - that thought came into my mind
Zen Arado: we need to be more authoritarian with younger children dont we ?
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey mick
Zen Arado: Hi Mick
Questa Blackheart: I definitely don't take the authoritarian approach with my own children. They are both too young for school yet.
Wester Kiranov: hi mickey
Mickorod Renard: Hiya folks
Questa Blackheart: Hi Mickorod
Zen Arado: but they need a framework with boundaries dont they?
Wester Kiranov: But I do think children need clear boundaries, if only as a starting point
Questa Blackheart: Oh yes, Wester. I don;t think that is the same as being authoritarian though.
Zen Arado: well thats a bit authoritarian I think
Yakuzza Lethecus: He was telling that they need rules but should be reenfored to discuss and question those
Zen Arado: you were there Yakuzza?
Mickorod Renard: I was never very strict with my lad,,also we became mates..but then when he got to the terible teens everyone said it was because i had been too soft
Yakuzza Lethecus: sure
Zen Arado: I missed some of it cos I kept crashing
Yakuzza Lethecus: and in fact that was a point where i agree and even see problems i don´t know many parents really discussiong their rules
Questa Blackheart: I think it depends on how you enforce the rules.
Questa Blackheart: Parents NEED to discuss rules. Where you have two parents they must be consistent.
Yakuzza Lethecus: i was thinking about discussion with the child
Yakuzza Lethecus: sure they need to do that with each other too
Zen Arado: what do you do when a child has temper tantrums to get what it wants?
Wester Kiranov: I ignore her in that case ;)
Questa Blackheart: Since I have a 2 year old I ask that question all the time. :)
Wester Kiranov: I havbe 2 two year olds
Questa Blackheart: Twins?
Zen Arado: I read that you shouldnt discuss with them
Wester Kiranov: yep, twins
Mickorod Renard: I fell foul of inter parent games..some jelousy and trying to gain favour
Adelene Dawner: Give the kid a better way than tantruming to get what they want? Seems to me like it'd work.
Zen Arado: just be firm
Yakuzza Lethecus: it was about school
Yakuzza Lethecus: those are prescoolers
Mickorod Renard: hiya
Yakuzza Lethecus: preschoolers
Zen Arado: HI Arabela
Questa Blackheart: Hi arabella
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey arabella
Wester Kiranov: When the tantrum gets really bad, I sent ger to her room to cool off. She even starts to go there herself now when things heat up too much
Questa Blackheart: I think mine is a bit young to do that yet.
Wester Kiranov: mine is 2 - like yours?
Questa Blackheart: Especially since she tends to bang her head on the floor.
Questa Blackheart: Ah. Differing parenting approaches. :-)
Wester Kiranov: :)
Questa Blackheart: We have a corner of the room where she sits to cool off.
Mickorod Renard: soz..I have to go,,,I had my fill of kids,,he he
Wester Kiranov: That doesn't work with mine
Questa Blackheart: Bye Mickorod
Wester Kiranov: bye mickey
Zen Arado: bye MIck
arabella Ella: bye mick
Questa Blackheart: Well, it doesn't often work with mine. :)
Mickorod Renard: bye everyone
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye
Questa Blackheart: But I don't want to deal with the bruises if I leave her on her own in that state.
Zen Arado: it still seems to me like you have to have some sort of moral code
Wester Kiranov: i understand..
Zen Arado: religious or otherwise
Questa Blackheart: Yes.
Wester Kiranov: what do you mean by code?
Questa Blackheart: A set of rules?
Zen Arado: you cant have a debate with a child all the time abut the correct moral stance ?
Zen Arado: guidelines
Zen Arado: broad guidelines
Questa Blackheart: Fair enough.
Wester Kiranov: I think so
Questa Blackheart: You are a Buddhist, Zen?
arabella Ella: fraid i must go now ... bye everyone
Zen Arado: I practice it
Wester Kiranov: bye ara
Questa Blackheart: Bye arabella
Zen Arado: bye Arbella
Wester Kiranov: :)
Zen Arado: what would that be?
Questa Blackheart: Zen, does your religious practice establish your moral code and the one you set out for your children>
Questa Blackheart: Maybe that is a stupid question. :-)
Zen Arado: no questions are stupid to me
Zen Arado: I dont think it is 'religious'though I do practice its moral guidelines
Zen Arado: and I dont have any children :)
Questa Blackheart: Ah. :-)
Questa Blackheart: Then my question maybe was a bit stupid. :-)
Zen Arado: no it wasnt
Zen Arado: lots of people think Buddhism is religious
Zen Arado: epends how you define the word
Questa Blackheart: As a Buddhist myself I think of it as a religion. :-)
Questa Blackheart: But yes, it depends on how you define it.
Zen Arado: there is no god or belief in a supernatural revelation
Zen Arado: why do you think of it as a religion Questa?
Questa Blackheart: Well, you say there is no god but that depends on what you think god is.
Zen Arado: yes
Questa Blackheart: And there may not be belief but there is certainly faith.
Zen Arado: Zen teaches us not to get trapped by words and concepts
Zen Arado: faith?
Questa Blackheart: Or hold on to the opposites, like it is or isn;t a religion. :-)
Questa Blackheart: Faith like leaping off a cliff and having the faith that you will survive.
Zen Arado: faith in the practice I guess
Questa Blackheart: Yes.
Questa Blackheart: If you didn't have faith, why would you do it?
Zen Arado: and you call absolute reality god too I suppose
Questa Blackheart: You can do if you want.
Zen Arado: can call I meant
Questa Blackheart: It gets called many things.
Zen Arado: maybe you need a structure like that when you begin to practice
Zen Arado: I think I did because I was a Christian
Questa Blackheart: Well, I'm only on my first 15 years, so may one day I can let go of that. :)
Questa Blackheart: I meant maybe
Zen Arado: ha ha I have only been practicing 5 years
Questa Blackheart: Maybe "new" can't be measured in time. :)
Zen Arado: I have spent so much time trying to figure it out
Zen Arado: to realise that you have to give up seeking
Questa Blackheart: Yes.
Zen Arado: give up trying to get anywhere
Questa Blackheart: And how can you give that up and still practice?
Zen Arado: well in zen they say 'just sit'
Questa Blackheart: You are told to "just sit" and yet there is no belief to back that up. It must be really hard not to just give up. I know I find it so.
Zen Arado: yes - we always want to be 'doing' something
Zen Arado: not content iwth just being
Questa Blackheart: It is the modern condition. We feel the need to see real and immediate benefits.
Questa Blackheart: That's why so many people do just give up.
Zen Arado: ABANDON ANY HOPE OF FRUITION Our next slogan is "Abandon any hope of fruition." You could also say, "Give up all hope" or "Give up" or just "Give." The shorter the better. One of the most powerful teachings of the Buddhist tradition is that as long as you are wishing for things to change, they never will. As long as you're wanting yourself to get better, you won't. As long as you have an orientation toward the future, you can never just relax into what you already have or already are.
Zen Arado: Im studying Tibetan Lojong teachings at the moment
Wester Kiranov: isn't that pema chodron?
Zen Arado: yes
Wester Kiranov: lojong is a nice teaching
Zen Arado: very difficult to me
Wester Kiranov: very counterintuitive
Zen Arado: opposite to our usual pattern
Zen Arado: exactly
Questa Blackheart: If it was easy, a lot more people would do it. :-)
Questa Blackheart: And yet it is simple.
Questa Blackheart: It's "just let go".
Zen Arado: hey everyone's Buddhist
Zen Arado: here
Questa Blackheart: Really?
Zen Arado: :)
Zen Arado: just seems it
Wester Kiranov: this practive does tend to attract buddhists
Zen Arado: yes
Questa Blackheart: Cool! Let's plan to overthrow society. :)
Zen Arado: found that already
Wester Kiranov: but there are other religions and atheists and agnostics too just not now
Zen Arado: yes I know
Zen Arado: I think I am an atheist
Zen Arado: non believer anyway
Questa Blackheart: Atheism is a belief.
Zen Arado: good point
Zen Arado: belief in no belief :)
Zen Arado: or no god
Questa Blackheart: Sounds like a Koan. :)
Zen Arado: strong unbeliefs some have :)
Questa Blackheart: Well, non-belief could be called agnosticism, although I'm not sure about the definition.
Questa Blackheart: Atheists actively believe that god does not exist.
Zen Arado: they have to construct a version of god to be able to deny its existence though :)
Wester Kiranov: Agnostics think they can and/or do not know if God exists
Questa Blackheart: Good point!
Yakuzza Lethecus: sorrry i fall asleep nihgt
Questa Blackheart: I meant good point Zen, although Westers was also a good point. :-)
Questa Blackheart: Sounds like you need the sleep Yauzza.
Wester Kiranov: And they ususally don't choose they most interesting version, to deny
Wester Kiranov: bye yaku
Questa Blackheart: Right. The man in white with the long beard is an easy target. :)
Zen Arado: I dont know if I am an agnostic :)
Zen Arado: yes Dawkins chooses targets like that I think
Questa Blackheart: Indeed. :)
Zen Arado: bigotted US evangelicals version of God
Wester Kiranov: I was thinking of dawkins, I admit it
Questa Blackheart: Interesting guy. I'm reading a collection of scientific extracts he compiled at the moment.
Questa Blackheart: Not his "All religion is wrong and terrible" stuff though.
Zen Arado: I have his 'God Delusion'but I havent read it yet
Zen Arado: I shouldnt criticse him until I do
Questa Blackheart: Or even then. :)
Questa Blackheart: But then we are all only human. :)
Questa Blackheart: Ah. I'm not good at the 15 minute bell thing.
Wester Kiranov: human enough to not read the green text ;)
Zen Arado: :)
Questa Blackheart: Yes. Maybe it needs to be a brighter colour. :)
Questa Blackheart: I need to go.
Questa Blackheart: Bye all.
Wester Kiranov: bye questa, nice to meet you
Zen Arado: yes me too
Questa Blackheart: And thank you for an interesting discussion.
Zen Arado: nice to meet you all
Wester Kiranov: bye zen
Zen Arado: bye Wester
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