2009.06.06 13:00 - Needing clear boundaries

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    Wol Euler recovered this session from the autologging database. Adlene was the guardian.


    Wester Kiranov: hi zen

    Zen Arado: Hi WEster

    Questa Blackheart: Hi.

    Zen Arado: not exactly a big crowd then :)

    Questa Blackheart: I was here few days ago.

    Zen Arado: Hi Questa

    Wester Kiranov: hi questa

    Questa Blackheart: Hi. May I join you?

    Zen Arado: I haven't been for a while

    Zen Arado: sure

    Questa Blackheart: Thanks.

    Zen Arado: are you the leader Questa?

    Questa Blackheart: No. I'm new.

    Zen Arado: soryy Wester I meant

    Questa Blackheart: There is a leader?

    Zen Arado: usually I thought

    Wester Kiranov: Im not the GoC if thats what you mean

    Questa Blackheart: Hello Adelene.

    Wester Kiranov: hi ade

    Zen Arado: Hi Adelene

    Adelene Dawner: I'm the Goc today - sorry I'm late.

    Zen Arado: Ah

    Wester Kiranov: if you have any questions questa, feel free to ask

    Questa Blackheart: Well, I've read the note...

    Wester Kiranov: hi yaku

    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone here

    Questa Blackheart: I'm just wondering how you all find so much to talk about for 4 hours every day.

    Questa Blackheart: Hi Yakuzza.

    Wester Kiranov: sometimes we just sit quietly...

    Questa Blackheart: And do you sit quietly in real life at the same time?

    Zen Arado: Hi Yakuzza

    Yakuzza Lethecus: I already managed to sit quietly and was asleep in real life, in fact that happened to me last night :)

    Questa Blackheart: :)

    Zen Arado: I meditate twice a day

    Wester Kiranov: and sometimes we like to talk, to make things clearer or just because we enjoy communicating

    Questa Blackheart: What do you like to talk about?

    Zen Arado: everything :)

    Wester Kiranov: have you taken a look at the chat logs? they're in the wiki

    Questa Blackheart: That's quite a big subject. :)

    Zen Arado: usually somebody introduces a topic

    Questa Blackheart: Yes, I have. I was waiting for my last visit to appear but it hasn't yet.

    Questa Blackheart: Probably my ego dictating things. :)

    Wester Kiranov: :)

    Zen Arado: I was at an interesting talk earlier

    Zen Arado: about whether children should have a more authoritarian education

    Wester Kiranov: and what did they say about that?

    Zen Arado: Stephen Law I think was the guys name

    Questa Blackheart: I have two children. Did they come to a conclusion?

    Zen Arado: http://www.amazon.co.uk/War-Children...4319333&sr=8-4

    Questa Blackheart: Sorry, I spoke when I shouldn't

    Wester Kiranov: np

    Zen Arado: 'The War for Children's Minds is a brilliantly clear and convincingly argued defence of liberalism in moral education. Stephen Law examines and demolishes all the arguments in favour of authoritarian ways of teaching, and shows that in spite of the insistence of popular commentators from the religious right, a liberal and rational examination and discussion of moral questions does not lead to relativism and the decay of ethical behaviour, but can in fact be the best defence against them. This book won't be read by popular journalists: they will attack it without reading it. But it should be read by every teacher, every parent, and every politician. What's more, it should form the subject for discussion in every church, synagogue, mosque, and religious youth group. It's one of the most engaging as well as one of the most necessary books that I've ever read in the field of moral education.' - Philip Pullman

    Questa Blackheart: THE Philip Pullman? :)

    Wester Kiranov: So it's about older children?

    Zen Arado: he more or less argues that children should be taught to question things

    Zen Arado: ah - that thought came into my mind

    Zen Arado: we need to be more authoritarian with younger children dont we ?

    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey mick

    Zen Arado: Hi Mick

    Questa Blackheart: I definitely don't take the authoritarian approach with my own children. They are both too young for school yet.

    Wester Kiranov: hi mickey

    Mickorod Renard: Hiya folks

    Questa Blackheart: Hi Mickorod

    Zen Arado: but they need a framework with boundaries dont they?

    Wester Kiranov: But I do think children need clear boundaries, if only as a starting point

    Questa Blackheart: Oh yes, Wester. I don;t think that is the same as being authoritarian though.

    Zen Arado: well thats a bit authoritarian I think

    Yakuzza Lethecus: He was telling that they need rules but should be reenfored to discuss and question those

    Zen Arado: you were there Yakuzza?

    Mickorod Renard: I was never very strict with my lad,,also we became mates..but then when he got to the terible teens everyone said it was because i had been too soft

    Yakuzza Lethecus: sure

    Zen Arado: I missed some of it cos I kept crashing

    Yakuzza Lethecus: and in fact that was a point where i agree and even see problems i don´t know many parents really discussiong their rules

    Questa Blackheart: I think it depends on how you enforce the rules.

    Questa Blackheart: Parents NEED to discuss rules. Where you have two parents they must be consistent.

    Yakuzza Lethecus: i was thinking about discussion with the child

    Yakuzza Lethecus: sure they need to do that with each other too

    Zen Arado: what do you do when a child has temper tantrums to get what it wants?

    Wester Kiranov: I ignore her in that case ;)

    Questa Blackheart: Since I have a 2 year old I ask that question all the time. :)

    Wester Kiranov: I havbe 2 two year olds

    Questa Blackheart: Twins?

    Zen Arado: I read that you shouldnt discuss with them

    Wester Kiranov: yep, twins

    Mickorod Renard: I fell foul of inter parent games..some jelousy and trying to gain favour

    Adelene Dawner: Give the kid a better way than tantruming to get what they want? Seems to me like it'd work.

    Zen Arado: just be firm

    Yakuzza Lethecus: it was about school

    Yakuzza Lethecus: those are prescoolers

    Mickorod Renard: hiya

    Yakuzza Lethecus: preschoolers

    Zen Arado: HI Arabela

    Questa Blackheart: Hi arabella

    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey arabella

    Wester Kiranov: When the tantrum gets really bad, I sent ger to her room to cool off. She even starts to go there herself now when things heat up too much

    Questa Blackheart: I think mine is a bit young to do that yet.

    Wester Kiranov: mine is 2 - like yours?

    Questa Blackheart: Especially since she tends to bang her head on the floor.

    Questa Blackheart: Ah. Differing parenting approaches. :-)

    Wester Kiranov: :)

    Questa Blackheart: We have a corner of the room where she sits to cool off.

    Mickorod Renard: soz..I have to go,,,I had my fill of kids,,he he

    Wester Kiranov: That doesn't work with mine

    Questa Blackheart: Bye Mickorod

    Wester Kiranov: bye mickey

    Zen Arado: bye MIck

    arabella Ella: bye mick

    Questa Blackheart: Well, it doesn't often work with mine. :)

    Mickorod Renard: bye everyone

    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye

    Questa Blackheart: But I don't want to deal with the bruises if I leave her on her own in that state.

    Zen Arado: it still seems to me like you have to have some sort of moral code

    Wester Kiranov: i understand..

    Zen Arado: religious or otherwise

    Questa Blackheart: Yes.

    Wester Kiranov: what do you mean by code?

    Questa Blackheart: A set of rules?

    Zen Arado: you cant have a debate with a child all the time abut the correct moral stance ?

    Zen Arado: guidelines

    Zen Arado: broad guidelines

    Questa Blackheart: Fair enough.

    Wester Kiranov: I think so

    Questa Blackheart: You are a Buddhist, Zen?

    arabella Ella: fraid i must go now ... bye everyone

    Zen Arado: I practice it

    Wester Kiranov: bye ara

    Questa Blackheart: Bye arabella

    Zen Arado: bye Arbella

    Wester Kiranov: :)

    Zen Arado: what would that be?

    Questa Blackheart: Zen, does your religious practice establish your moral code and the one you set out for your children>

    Questa Blackheart: Maybe that is a stupid question. :-)

    Zen Arado: no questions are stupid to me

    Zen Arado: I dont think it is 'religious'though I do practice its moral guidelines

    Zen Arado: and I dont have any children :)

    Questa Blackheart: Ah. :-)

    Questa Blackheart: Then my question maybe was a bit stupid. :-)

    Zen Arado: no it wasnt

    Zen Arado: lots of people think Buddhism is religious

    Zen Arado: epends how you define the word

    Questa Blackheart: As a Buddhist myself I think of it as a religion. :-)

    Questa Blackheart: But yes, it depends on how you define it.

    Zen Arado: there is no god or belief in a supernatural revelation

    Zen Arado: why do you think of it as a religion Questa?

    Questa Blackheart: Well, you say there is no god but that depends on what you think god is.

    Zen Arado: yes

    Questa Blackheart: And there may not be belief but there is certainly faith.

    Zen Arado: Zen teaches us not to get trapped by words and concepts

    Zen Arado: faith?

    Questa Blackheart: Or hold on to the opposites, like it is or isn;t a religion. :-)

    Questa Blackheart: Faith like leaping off a cliff and having the faith that you will survive.

    Zen Arado: faith in the practice I guess

    Questa Blackheart: Yes.

    Questa Blackheart: If you didn't have faith, why would you do it?

    Zen Arado: and you call absolute reality god too I suppose

    Questa Blackheart: You can do if you want.

    Zen Arado: can call I meant

    Questa Blackheart: It gets called many things.

    Zen Arado: maybe you need a structure like that when you begin to practice

    Zen Arado: I think I did because I was a Christian

    Questa Blackheart: Well, I'm only on my first 15 years, so may one day I can let go of that. :)

    Questa Blackheart: I meant maybe

    Zen Arado: ha ha I have only been practicing 5 years

    Questa Blackheart: Maybe "new" can't be measured in time. :)

    Zen Arado: I have spent so much time trying to figure it out

    Zen Arado: to realise that you have to give up seeking

    Questa Blackheart: Yes.

    Zen Arado: give up trying to get anywhere

    Questa Blackheart: And how can you give that up and still practice?

    Zen Arado: well in zen they say 'just sit'

    Questa Blackheart: You are told to "just sit" and yet there is no belief to back that up. It must be really hard not to just give up. I know I find it so.

    Zen Arado: yes - we always want to be 'doing' something

    Zen Arado: not content iwth just being

    Questa Blackheart: It is the modern condition. We feel the need to see real and immediate benefits.

    Questa Blackheart: That's why so many people do just give up.

    Zen Arado: ABANDON ANY HOPE OF FRUITION Our next slogan is "Abandon any hope of fruition." You could also say, "Give up all hope" or "Give up" or just "Give." The shorter the better. One of the most powerful teachings of the Buddhist tradition is that as long as you are wishing for things to change, they never will. As long as you're wanting yourself to get better, you won't. As long as you have an orientation toward the future, you can never just relax into what you already have or already are.

    Zen Arado: Im studying Tibetan Lojong teachings at the moment

    Wester Kiranov: isn't that pema chodron?

    Zen Arado: yes

    Wester Kiranov: lojong is a nice teaching

    Zen Arado: very difficult to me

    Wester Kiranov: very counterintuitive

    Zen Arado: opposite to our usual pattern

    Zen Arado: exactly

    Questa Blackheart: If it was easy, a lot more people would do it. :-)

    Questa Blackheart: And yet it is simple.

    Questa Blackheart: It's "just let go".

    Zen Arado: hey everyone's Buddhist

    Zen Arado: here

    Questa Blackheart: Really?

    Zen Arado: :)

    Zen Arado: just seems it

    Wester Kiranov: this practive does tend to attract buddhists

    Zen Arado: yes

    Questa Blackheart: Cool! Let's plan to overthrow society. :)

    Zen Arado: found that already

    Wester Kiranov: but there are other religions and atheists and agnostics too just not now

    Zen Arado: yes I know

    Zen Arado: I think I am an atheist

    Zen Arado: non believer anyway

    Questa Blackheart: Atheism is a belief.

    Zen Arado: good point

    Zen Arado: belief in no belief :)

    Zen Arado: or no god

    Questa Blackheart: Sounds like a Koan. :)

    Zen Arado: strong unbeliefs some have :)

    Questa Blackheart: Well, non-belief could be called agnosticism, although I'm not sure about the definition.

    Questa Blackheart: Atheists actively believe that god does not exist.

    Zen Arado: they have to construct a version of god to be able to deny its existence though :)

    Wester Kiranov: Agnostics think they can and/or do not know if God exists

    Questa Blackheart: Good point!

    Yakuzza Lethecus: sorrry i fall asleep nihgt

    Questa Blackheart: I meant good point Zen, although Westers was also a good point. :-)

    Questa Blackheart: Sounds like you need the sleep Yauzza.

    Wester Kiranov: And they ususally don't choose they most interesting version, to deny

    Wester Kiranov: bye yaku

    Questa Blackheart: Right. The man in white with the long beard is an easy target. :)

    Zen Arado: I dont know if I am an agnostic :)

    Zen Arado: yes Dawkins chooses targets like that I think

    Questa Blackheart: Indeed. :)

    Zen Arado: bigotted US evangelicals version of God

    Wester Kiranov: I was thinking of dawkins, I admit it

    Questa Blackheart: Interesting guy. I'm reading a collection of scientific extracts he compiled at the moment.

    Questa Blackheart: Not his "All religion is wrong and terrible" stuff though.

    Zen Arado: I have his 'God Delusion'but I havent read it yet

    Zen Arado: I shouldnt criticse him until I do

    Questa Blackheart: Or even then. :)

    Questa Blackheart: But then we are all only human. :)

    Questa Blackheart: Ah. I'm not good at the 15 minute bell thing.

    Wester Kiranov: human enough to not read the green text ;)

    Zen Arado: :)

    Questa Blackheart: Yes. Maybe it needs to be a brighter colour. :)

    Questa Blackheart: I need to go.

    Questa Blackheart: Bye all.

    Wester Kiranov: bye questa, nice to meet you

    Zen Arado: yes me too

    Questa Blackheart: And thank you for an interesting discussion.

    Zen Arado: nice to meet you all

    Wester Kiranov: bye zen

    Zen Arado: bye Wester

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