2009.06.07 13:00 - Dreaming (continued)

Maxine Walden, the usual Guardian for this session, was unable to attend, and so Pila Mulligan was the Guardian for this meeting (if there were any comments they would have been Pila's, but there are not any:)  

Pila Mulligan: hi Wester and Mick
Mickorod Renard: Hiya Pila Webs
Wester Kiranov: hi pila, mickey
Mickorod Renard: nice weekend?
Pila Mulligan: yes, thanks, Mick -- and you?
Mickorod Renard: Hi Adams
Mickorod Renard: yes, super thanks
Wester Kiranov: trying to clean up the house, which of course is much more time consuming than I thought ;-)
Pila Mulligan: hi Adams
Pila Mulligan: :)
Wester Kiranov: hi adams
Adams Dubrovna: Hello Mick, Pila and Wester :)
Mickorod Renard: ;)
Mickorod Renard: I have a busy time next few days,,i have some scribe to do
Mickorod Renard: first time
Pila Mulligan: :)
Wester Kiranov: enjoy it -a s much as possible
Adams Dubrovna: Oh great Mick. I'll look forward to rerading it
Mickorod Renard: I cant believe how much chat log seems to have been compiled recently
Adams Dubrovna: :)
Wester Kiranov: I know - reading is the worst part
Wester Kiranov: and the best
Mickorod Renard: well, i sort of enjoyed reading it,,but lol,seems that the sesions i dont usually atten are much more active
Pila Mulligan: it sounds like like gardening -- enough work to make the results more satisfying
Adams Dubrovna: It is not hard to pull out some great quotes; it gets more difficult when tryting to come up with a grand theme for three days. It usually doesn't fit
Pila Mulligan: hi Scathach
Wester Kiranov: hi scath
Adams Dubrovna: Hello Scath :)
Mickorod Renard: yes, i can see that adams
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello all:)
Mickorod Renard: hi scath
Mickorod Renard: I think this first time will be just a basic one..cut and paste
Adams Dubrovna: sounds wise :)
Wester Kiranov: basic is fine -getting it done is the important thing
Mickorod Renard: also the subject matter seems to be getting more and more diverse
Adams Dubrovna nods
Pila Mulligan: this is Maxine's Guardian session, but she could not be here today; as she has said before, we have been thinking about dreams/dreaming among other things in these Sunday sesssions; any thoughts anyone would like to pursue?
Mickorod Renard: strangely enough
Mickorod Renard: I remember having a dream this morning
Pila Mulligan: :)
Mickorod Renard: the content wsnt memorable except
Mickorod Renard: I was on a motorbike that I had to stop in an odd place,,next to a house
Mickorod Renard: and this guy came walking up to the house,,he lived there
Mickorod Renard: nd he wasnt too happy
Mickorod Renard: by the expression on his face
Mickorod Renard: noise or maybe fumes
Mickorod Renard: nyway,,he looked at me and I him and realised we knew each other
Mickorod Renard: oops
Pila Mulligan: :)
Mickorod Renard: anyway..at first i couldnt place him
Mickorod Renard: then i saw a familiararity,,he was much older now
Mickorod Renard: so I asked him if he were this person and he said yes
Mickorod Renard: then I woke up
Mickorod Renard: frustrated,,cos I wanted a chat with him
Mickorod Renard: I am sure he died..and i knew him when ,,well,,30 years ago
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: do you usually remember dreams, Mick?
Mickorod Renard: I used to remember all my dreams,,but recent years very few
Pila Mulligan: what do you suppose made you wake up?
Scathach Rhiadra: sorry all, I have to leave early tonjght, Namaste
Pila Mulligan: bye Scath
Mickorod Renard: nothing unusual,no noise,maybe just the time
Mickorod Renard: bye scath
Wester Kiranov: bye scath
Adams Dubrovna: bye Scath
Mickorod Renard: I have always wanted to ask the carachters who they were
Pila Mulligan: could it have been the anamoloy of your mind remembering that he died?
Mickorod Renard: ooops
Mickorod Renard: scuse spellin
Pila Mulligan: :)
Adams Dubrovna: :)
Mickorod Renard: still look at the keyboard
Mickorod Renard: I think it may have been Pila
Pila Mulligan: what did you mean by noise or fumes, please? -- he wasnt too happy [13:14] Mickorod Renard: by the expression on his face [13:14] Mickorod Renard: noise or maybe fumes
Mickorod Renard: I have been trying hard to ask who people are in dreams,,I think it may be a taboo
Mickorod Renard: just the circumstances,,of stopping a motorbike next to his front door
Pila Mulligan: ahh, thanks
Mickorod Renard: it was the harley,,very noisy and smelly
Pila Mulligan: 1000 cc?
Mickorod Renard: 1600
Pila Mulligan: even more :)
Mickorod Renard: grin,,its got an S &S motor
Mickorod Renard: but I wonder sometimes if some of the characters are made up of dead persons
Pila Mulligan: you said you think the ethics of dreaming may go contrary to asking someone who they are
Mickorod Renard: maybe
Pila Mulligan: I have a sense of that sometimes, but in this case I think the mind anamoloy may have been more influential
Mickorod Renard: I only have silly romantic thoughts about dreams really
Wester Kiranov: (slipping away quietly - bye all)
Mickorod Renard: yes, perhaps,,but odd that I should remember someone so obscure
Pila Mulligan: bye Wester
Mickorod Renard: bye Webs
Pila Mulligan: well, you said you wanted a chat with him :)
Mickorod Renard: He went off to be part of the drugs scene in amsterdam in the early seventies
Mickorod Renard: yes
Adams Dubrovna: bye Wester
Pila Mulligan: that would be an interesting chat
Mickorod Renard: I have occasionally wondered about what happened to him
Pila Mulligan: it seems to me that there is a delicate continuity in dreams, and when it is disrupted the dream shifts or the dreamer wakes up
Mickorod Renard: but I have been mystified for many years who the characters are in dreams
Pila Mulligan: so asking them is okay, in my opinion :)
Mickorod Renard: yes,,many years ago, I managed to practice,,and have some control within some dreams
Mickorod Renard: like become concious,,yet still asleep with the tape running
Pila Mulligan: :)
Mickorod Renard: if that makes sense
Adams Dubrovna: Yesit does, that has been my experience off and on for the past year
Pila Mulligan: Mick, you mean being conscious of dream events as they happen and then remembering them later?
Mickorod Renard: yes,,and even to the point of stearing certain events in a dream
Pila Mulligan: is that also what you meant, Adams?
Mickorod Renard: steering
Adams Dubrovna: no, I mispoke
Adams Dubrovna: I simply remember dreams and they are in tune with my explorations
Pila Mulligan: do you have a dream awareness in the dream? being aware that you are dreaming?
Mickorod Renard: I see,,and may I ask the nature of the explorations?
Adams Dubrovna: they have varied and I blog about them
Mickorod Renard: cool
Adams Dubrovna: but it has been a breaking down of my identities and attachments
Mickorod Renard: I do often have dream awareness
Adams Dubrovna: the dreams have provided clues
Mickorod Renard: thats nice adams,,I too have made some discoveries about myself too,,this way
Pila Mulligan: the hints from dreams can be quite subtle sometimes
Adams Dubrovna: Sometimes the characters have meaning later
Adams Dubrovna: yes Pila
Mickorod Renard: this is interesting,,as some of my dreams are kept on hold for several months,,until my mind interprets them
Pila Mulligan: :)
Mickorod Renard: others are dismisssed very easily and forgotten
Adams Dubrovna: Mine seem to come clear within a day or two or they don't at all except for one I had which took a few weeks to come clear
Adams Dubrovna: That was particularly important
Pila Mulligan: your effrots may help make them more immediately sensible, Adams
Pila Mulligan: your intent to deal with identities and attachments
Mickorod Renard: nice,,I seem to sense a certain quality,or feel about a dream,,that sugests that it is for remembering..
Pila Mulligan: now I had an unrealted expereince yesterday
Mickorod Renard: please tell?
Adams Dubrovna: Mine seem to be those I wake up during or after but often I know it has been recurring
Adams Dubrovna: yess Pila?
Pila Mulligan: an old friend from where i used to live called in the late morning
Mickorod Renard: I see,,like a narative,thats on going?
Pila Mulligan: on the phone, I had been tired and was taking a nap
Mickorod Renard: in rl?
Mickorod Renard: awake?
Pila Mulligan: just before the phone rang, while I was still asleep, I heard his voice lod and clear say 'pick up the phone'
Pila Mulligan: hi ShaktiShiva
Adams Dubrovna: wow!
Mickorod Renard: Hi Shak
Adams Dubrovna: Hi ShaktShiva
Mickorod Renard: that is so wierd
ShaktiShiva Core: Hello, all. Mind if I listen for a while?
Pila Mulligan: have you been here before ShaktiShiva?
ShaktiShiva Core: Nope.
ShaktiShiva Core: Anything I need to know?
Pila Mulligan: let me give you a note card then pease
Mickorod Renard: just done it
Pila Mulligan: we have a website that posts the logs of these chats -- http://playasbeing.wik.is/
Pila Mulligan: do you mind having your comments in the web log?
Mickorod Renard: so what you may say could be read by anyone..;)
Pila Mulligan: if you prefer, your comments can be made anonymous
Mickorod Renard: I sometimes wake up to an alarm,,yet when I awake,,it has not yet gone off
Pila Mulligan: :) timing anamoly
Mickorod Renard: follows after about 2 mins
Adams Dubrovna: :)
ShaktiShiva Core: Well, I hope I don't so anything too untoward ... is keeping my comments but listing them as anonymous any difficulty?
Pila Mulligan: kind of, actually :)
Mickorod Renard: he he he
ShaktiShiva Core: then don't worry about it
Pila Mulligan: just a cut and paste for your name on the log
Mickorod Renard: but you are very welcome Shak
Pila Mulligan: we have been chatting about dreams today
Pila Mulligan: thanks, then, I'll leave your name in the log today :)
Mickorod Renard: so what do you make of your dream experience Pila?
Pila Mulligan: it is as curious as my waking expereince, Mick
Mickorod Renard: yes,,I can understand
Pila Mulligan: these days I am looking at the filters between origins and perceptions
Pila Mulligan: where did a perception originate
Mickorod Renard: I have wondered for a long time whether the unharnessed mind/conciousness,can transcend time
Pila Mulligan: probably it can
Pila Mulligan: hi arabella
arabella Ella: hiya
Mickorod Renard: Hiya Ara
Pila Mulligan: we have been chatting about dreams, again
Mickorod Renard: just chatting about dreams
arabella Ella: oh interesting
Adams Dubrovna: hell Ara
arabella Ella: except that i dream a lot and always forget my dreams when i wake up
Adams Dubrovna: hello
arabella Ella: i would love to be able to remember my dreams but i cant bring myself to write them when i wake up
Pila Mulligan: rememebring is an obstacle, for sure
Pila Mulligan: anyone have suggestions for helping remmeber dreams
ShaktiShiva Core: I could babble off quite a few, but I'm more interested in why you want to remember them more often?
arabella Ella: maxine had suggested we write them down once we wake up but i find that tough - not enough self discipline perhaps
Adams Dubrovna: I do write them down as soon as I wake up
arabella Ella: i want to remember them to reflect on them, to learn from them, some are worth remembering i know
ShaktiShiva Core: Well, humans have actually been able to remember things without writing. I might not be a good example of this but . . . .
ShaktiShiva Core: Yes, but what specifically do you hope to learn from them, I was wondering? Some psychologists have proposed that dreams are indications of neurosis and that dreamless sleep is actually a sign of health. (I don't necessarily agree.)
Pila Mulligan: an aside: the older I get the more remembering things seems to involve some intent or focus -- notes help there
Pila Mulligan: I think there may be a continuity between some dream expereince and some waking expereince
ShaktiShiva Core: Right. Is why I'm asking more about the focus or intention behind remembering. Sometimes, if this isclarified, the doing is less of an effort, if not effortless.
arabella Ella: i think dreams are part of our unconscious thought processes and reveal to us aspects about ourselves ... perhaps i am a bit too influenced by Freud on dreams?
Pila Mulligan: some Tibetan books on dream yoga relate dreaming consciousness to waking cosnciousness
ShaktiShiva Core: and Jung. Probably. I certainly am. But what unconscious materials are you hoping to access specifically and what do you want to happen with them? Following Freud too strictly, for instance, means you'll be carrying a lot of his psychological baggage with you.
arabella Ella: well it is definitely not the guilt trip i am after
ShaktiShiva Core: Pila, is that related to Indian systems? You know, the four states: waking, sleeping-dreaming, dreamless-sleep, and turiyaa.
ShaktiShiva Core: hahaha
arabella Ella: but as you know - we only know very little of our true selves
Adams Dubrovna: I look at this purely on the level of watching myself, learning what I can
arabella Ella: i am a curious person - i often ask why? then again why? and again why?
Pila Mulligan: I read one of the Tibetan books ten years ago, it was mor eon technique than theory
arabella Ella: delving deeper to attempt to gain understanding
ShaktiShiva Core: I worry technique without theory can lead to dangerous misinterpretations.
ShaktiShiva Core: Adams, that sounded like a Gurdjieff/Oudspensky perspective to me. Is that part of your background in mindfulness?
Pila Mulligan: well, if the dream expereince is seen as part of a whole of expereince, it may need less interpretation
Adams Dubrovna: Yes Pila
Pila Mulligan: ShiveShakti mentioned the turiya state of transcendent consiousness
Adams Dubrovna: It is part of our practice here Shakt, stopping and seeing
Pila Mulligan: maybe we can aim for that :)
Pila Mulligan: Maxine, the usual moderator for this session, likes to suggest that dreaming happens continuosly
Adams Dubrovna: Time for me to run. Take care everyone :)
arabella Ella: continuously - what does that mean? also when awake?
ShaktiShiva Core: I agree with that. It fiddles with the definition of sleep/awake, revealing how fuzzy the definitions can be, but I agree.
Pila Mulligan: bye Adams
arabella Ella: bye Adams
Mickorod Renard: bye adams
Pila Mulligan: arabella, I tihnk she means that we always have dreams going on, and somtrimes we notice them
Pila Mulligan: hi wol
ShaktiShiva Core: I just got notice of an event. Will miss the calming pauses.
Mickorod Renard: I think there are many posibilities
Wol Euler: hello pila, ara, mick, shakti
Pila Mulligan: by ShaktiShiva, noe to meet you
Mickorod Renard: Hiya Wol
Pila Mulligan: nice*
arabella Ella: hiya Wol!
ShaktiShiva Core: You, as well. I hope to talk to you all later. Goodbye.
arabella Ella: bye Shaki
Pila Mulligan: see you next time
Mickorod Renard: bye Shak
Mickorod Renard: you know what
Wol Euler: tell me what.
Pila Mulligan: hi Questa
Mickorod Renard: we have to create future lil universe's all the time in our heads
Mickorod Renard: Hiya questa
Questa Blackheart: Hi
arabella Ella: hiya Questa
Wol Euler: hello questa
Pila Mulligan: have you been here before Questa?
Wol Euler: four days old :) welcome to second life
Questa Blackheart: Yes, a couple of times.
Pila Mulligan: welcome back, then
Questa Blackheart: Thank you.
Pila Mulligan: :)
Questa Blackheart: I guess I'm a bit late.
Pila Mulligan: time is relative
Mickorod Renard: its ok,,but i may have to leave you all now
Questa Blackheart: So Albert reckons. :-)
Questa Blackheart: Bye.
Pila Mulligan: as Mick just noted, it lets us create little universes
Pila Mulligan: bye Mick
arabella Ella: bye mick
arabella Ella: i gotta go too nite all
Wol Euler: bye mick, take care
Wol Euler: and bye ara
Wol Euler: I got here just in time, I guess...
Pila Mulligan: bye ara
Questa Blackheart: Bye
Mickorod Renard: bye,,must talk again on the subject
Pila Mulligan: so it seems Wol :)
Wol Euler: ah well.
Questa Blackheart: Looks like I have missed everything.
Wol Euler: me too.
Pila Mulligan: oh, not everything :)
Pila Mulligan: and what happened already will be on the website chat log
Pila Mulligan: it was about dreaming
Questa Blackheart: I will read it with interest.
Wol Euler sighs. I'm sorry to have missed that, those sessions are interesting
Pila Mulligan: dreaming is a fun topic
Pila Mulligan: shall we continue?
Pila Mulligan: or any other topic of interest?
Questa Blackheart: Sure. I have a little bit of time.
Questa Blackheart: I don't have a topic though.
Pila Mulligan: well, here's a commen tI made earlier:
Pila Mulligan: these days I am looking at the filters between origins and perceptions -- where did a perception originate
Wol Euler smiles. Let us continue, then. The recorder is still running
Pila Mulligan: this relates to dreams as well as waking
Pila Mulligan: in a dream, an idea may weeks later dawn in relation to a dream perception
Pila Mulligan: we see mental images and thoughts arise and we recognize them or not, but my question is more about how they get to us
Questa Blackheart: I have read something interesting recently about the way we perceive things...
Wol Euler: hmmmmm
Pila Mulligan: cool -- please say more Questa
Questa Blackheart: For example, we think we see a complete picture through our eyes...
Questa Blackheart: Apart from the blind spot, which we are totally not aware of, our actual perception is seen through a series of interpretations.
Questa Blackheart: Our mind fill sin the gaps so to speak.
Pila Mulligan: so we have mind filters
Pila Mulligan: and interpret things thgourh them
Questa Blackheart: Yes.
Wol Euler: Threedee said once that almost all of our vision is blurry and low-resolution, the area of accurate focusing is tiny, about the size of the eyeball of somebody standing at arm#s length from us
Wol Euler: yet we imagine that we see the whole world in focus
Wol Euler: because the brain patches together clearly-seen bits and blends over the edges.
Questa Blackheart: Yes, that is pretty much what I read.
Questa Blackheart: There is a part of the brain that perceives edges. Even though we may not see all of an edge, that part fills in the gap so we think we do.
Pila Mulligan: well, let's think some more about dreaming in that sense then, please ....
Pila Mulligan: we may see many people in a dream, but can we say those people are actually present in the dream
Questa Blackheart: Ah, sorry. I did it again.
Pila Mulligan: no problem Q :)
Questa Blackheart: I don't know how you could make a statement like that if the dream itself is not a real thing.
Pila Mulligan: that's the idea, what is the reality
Wol Euler: the person in a dream is often a symbol of somebody or something else.
Pila Mulligan: we have a mind that filters and interprets things
Pila Mulligan: it takes impressions and formulates perceptions
Questa Blackheart: I think the world would be a very confusing place if we didn't/
Pila Mulligan: but the same process is probably hapening in dreams
Pila Mulligan: so could the symbol of the person in the dream, as Wol said, have an actual origin elsewhere?
Pila Mulligan: for example, may a thought you hold now appear later in my dream?
Pila Mulligan: or vice versa
Pila Mulligan: or, may a person's thought find its way into another person's dream without any delay?
Wol Euler: oh, interesting.
Pila Mulligan: so that the idea originates with one thought and then the impression appears elsewhere
Pila Mulligan: with whatever symbols and associations the mind gives it as interpretation
Questa Blackheart: The interconnectedness of all things?
Pila Mulligan: yes
Questa Blackheart: With that, all things are possible,
Pila Mulligan: this hypothetical process may apply to both dreaming and waking
Pila Mulligan: maybe we should call it co-dependent origination :)
Questa Blackheart: :)
Pila Mulligan: and take it to Stim's Thurday workshop :)
Wol Euler: I've hard that before somehwere ...
Wol Euler: *heard
Questa Blackheart: Dependent origination maybe. :)
Questa Blackheart: It's a Buddhist term.
Pila Mulligan: yep, interrelated is the thought
Questa Blackheart: Dependent origination is what brings us into existence.
Questa Blackheart: Hi Kenji.
Pila Mulligan: that was my aim in wondering about how the mind filters impressions and interprets things -- and their origins
Wol Euler: hello kenji
kenji Pookes: Hi
Pila Mulligan: hi Kenji
kenji Pookes: Hi all
Pila Mulligan: we are still on the subject of dreaming kind of Kenji
Questa Blackheart: Maybe it's not so different to what the mind does when we are awake.
kenji Pookes: Thanks
Questa Blackheart: Maybe we just create the world in a slightly different way.
Pila Mulligan: well, the waking state is more solid it seems
Pila Mulligan: so that would account for the differences
Questa Blackheart: But may that is only a perception.
Pila Mulligan: yes, true
Questa Blackheart: Most of us don't know we are dreaming when we are.
Pila Mulligan: and some of us forget we are awake :)
kenji Pookes: REally? I'm not so sure about that.
Questa Blackheart: Neither am I. It's just an idea.
kenji Pookes: We diffrentiate lucid dreams from regular dreams, which would suggest that normally we are in some way aware of dreaming.
Pila Mulligan: menaing there are degrees of lucidiy or awareness?
kenji Pookes: I meant that some dreams are defined as lucid dreams, meaning that we are NOT in those dreams aware that we are dreaming--they seem real.
Pila Mulligan: does remembering them affect our 'knowing' them?
kenji Pookes: I may have that wrong. I looked it up and found that a lucid dream is when someone is aware that he/she is dreaming and can participate consciously in he dream. Different from what I thought.
Questa Blackheart: I think lucid dreaming is just another filter, another layer of interpretation.
Pila Mulligan: :)
Questa Blackheart: If we think we are in control of a dream how do we know that that isn't just a perception?
kenji Pookes: What's the difference between a dream and perception?
Wol Euler: perhaps we merely dream that we are controlling the dream?
Pila Mulligan: a lucid dream can seem so real that not only do you recognize you are dreaming, you also doubt the validity of differentiating the expereince from waking experinece
kenji Pookes: Yes
kenji Pookes: In other words some dreams seem so real that they do not appear to be dreams.
Pila Mulligan: yes, our knowledge of reality needs to incroprate that expereince the same as it does waking expereince to have a grasp of the perception
Pila Mulligan: but time continuity seems to be a big factor in diffrentiating dreams from waking life
kenji Pookes: How is "iknowledge of reality" difffernt from "perception", which is implied by your last sentence Pila?
Pila Mulligan: well, we have perceptions all the time, but we cannot possibly rememebr them all
Pila Mulligan: at least i cannot
Pila Mulligan: soe we consturct knowlegde from them
kenji Pookes: That would seem to be memory rather than knowledge of reality.
Pila Mulligan: to me they are the same
kenji Pookes: Do we construct knowledge from memory or from perception or both?
Pila Mulligan: both
Pila Mulligan: but we do not always rememebr every pereption
kenji Pookes: What's memory?
Pila Mulligan: recollections of perceptions
kenji Pookes: But I can remember things that I have not perceived--I can remember a dream.
Pila Mulligan: how did you have the dream i fnot by perception?
kenji Pookes: I think of perception as processing of external stimuli.
Pila Mulligan: you missed the earlier part here where I suggested dreams are respionse to eexternal stimulii
kenji Pookes: Crud, TExas just lost to TCU in baseball Super Regional.
kenji Pookes: I see.
Questa Blackheart: Sorry, I have to go.
Pila Mulligan: bye Questa
kenji Pookes: Bye, Questa.
Wol Euler: bye questa, take care.
Pila Mulligan: nice to meet you
Questa Blackheart: Bye all.
Wol Euler: I shall have to be going too, work tomorrow; and "tomorrow" is 21 minutes away
Wol Euler: goodnight all, take care.
Pila Mulligan: bye Wol, sweet dreams :)
kenji Pookes: Goodnight.
kenji Pookes: I think I'll move on, as well. Need to make dinner.
Pila Mulligan: bye Kenji
kenji Pookes: Cheers.