2009.06.07 13:00 - Dreaming (continued)

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    Maxine Walden, the usual Guardian for this session, was unable to attend, and so Pila Mulligan was the Guardian for this meeting (if there were any comments they would have been Pila's, but there are not any:)  

    Pila Mulligan: hi Wester and Mick
    Mickorod Renard: Hiya Pila Webs
    Wester Kiranov: hi pila, mickey
    Mickorod Renard: nice weekend?
    Pila Mulligan: yes, thanks, Mick -- and you?
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Adams
    Mickorod Renard: yes, super thanks
    Wester Kiranov: trying to clean up the house, which of course is much more time consuming than I thought ;-)
    Pila Mulligan: hi Adams
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Wester Kiranov: hi adams
    Adams Dubrovna: Hello Mick, Pila and Wester :)
    Mickorod Renard: ;)
    Mickorod Renard: I have a busy time next few days,,i have some scribe to do
    Mickorod Renard: first time
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Wester Kiranov: enjoy it -a s much as possible
    Adams Dubrovna: Oh great Mick. I'll look forward to rerading it
    Mickorod Renard: I cant believe how much chat log seems to have been compiled recently
    Adams Dubrovna: :)
    Wester Kiranov: I know - reading is the worst part
    Wester Kiranov: and the best
    Mickorod Renard: well, i sort of enjoyed reading it,,but lol,seems that the sesions i dont usually atten are much more active
    Pila Mulligan: it sounds like like gardening -- enough work to make the results more satisfying
    Adams Dubrovna: It is not hard to pull out some great quotes; it gets more difficult when tryting to come up with a grand theme for three days. It usually doesn't fit
    Pila Mulligan: hi Scathach
    Wester Kiranov: hi scath
    Adams Dubrovna: Hello Scath :)
    Mickorod Renard: yes, i can see that adams
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello all:)
    Mickorod Renard: hi scath
    Mickorod Renard: I think this first time will be just a basic one..cut and paste
    Adams Dubrovna: sounds wise :)
    Wester Kiranov: basic is fine -getting it done is the important thing
    Mickorod Renard: also the subject matter seems to be getting more and more diverse
    Adams Dubrovna nods
    Pila Mulligan: this is Maxine's Guardian session, but she could not be here today; as she has said before, we have been thinking about dreams/dreaming among other things in these Sunday sesssions; any thoughts anyone would like to pursue?
    Mickorod Renard: strangely enough
    Mickorod Renard: I remember having a dream this morning
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Mickorod Renard: the content wsnt memorable except
    Mickorod Renard: I was on a motorbike that I had to stop in an odd place,,next to a house
    Mickorod Renard: and this guy came walking up to the house,,he lived there
    Mickorod Renard: nd he wasnt too happy
    Mickorod Renard: by the expression on his face
    Mickorod Renard: noise or maybe fumes
    Mickorod Renard: nyway,,he looked at me and I him and realised we knew each other
    Mickorod Renard: oops
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Mickorod Renard: anyway..at first i couldnt place him
    Mickorod Renard: then i saw a familiararity,,he was much older now
    Mickorod Renard: so I asked him if he were this person and he said yes
    Mickorod Renard: then I woke up
    Mickorod Renard: frustrated,,cos I wanted a chat with him
    Mickorod Renard: I am sure he died..and i knew him when ,,well,,30 years ago
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: do you usually remember dreams, Mick?
    Mickorod Renard: I used to remember all my dreams,,but recent years very few
    Pila Mulligan: what do you suppose made you wake up?
    Scathach Rhiadra: sorry all, I have to leave early tonjght, Namaste
    Pila Mulligan: bye Scath
    Mickorod Renard: nothing unusual,no noise,maybe just the time
    Mickorod Renard: bye scath
    Wester Kiranov: bye scath
    Adams Dubrovna: bye Scath
    Mickorod Renard: I have always wanted to ask the carachters who they were
    Pila Mulligan: could it have been the anamoloy of your mind remembering that he died?
    Mickorod Renard: ooops
    Mickorod Renard: scuse spellin
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Adams Dubrovna: :)
    Mickorod Renard: still look at the keyboard
    Mickorod Renard: I think it may have been Pila
    Pila Mulligan: what did you mean by noise or fumes, please? -- he wasnt too happy [13:14] Mickorod Renard: by the expression on his face [13:14] Mickorod Renard: noise or maybe fumes
    Mickorod Renard: I have been trying hard to ask who people are in dreams,,I think it may be a taboo
    Mickorod Renard: just the circumstances,,of stopping a motorbike next to his front door
    Pila Mulligan: ahh, thanks
    Mickorod Renard: it was the harley,,very noisy and smelly
    Pila Mulligan: 1000 cc?
    Mickorod Renard: 1600
    Pila Mulligan: even more :)
    Mickorod Renard: grin,,its got an S &S motor
    Mickorod Renard: but I wonder sometimes if some of the characters are made up of dead persons
    Pila Mulligan: you said you think the ethics of dreaming may go contrary to asking someone who they are
    Mickorod Renard: maybe
    Pila Mulligan: I have a sense of that sometimes, but in this case I think the mind anamoloy may have been more influential
    Mickorod Renard: I only have silly romantic thoughts about dreams really
    Wester Kiranov: (slipping away quietly - bye all)
    Mickorod Renard: yes, perhaps,,but odd that I should remember someone so obscure
    Pila Mulligan: bye Wester
    Mickorod Renard: bye Webs
    Pila Mulligan: well, you said you wanted a chat with him :)
    Mickorod Renard: He went off to be part of the drugs scene in amsterdam in the early seventies
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    Adams Dubrovna: bye Wester
    Pila Mulligan: that would be an interesting chat
    Mickorod Renard: I have occasionally wondered about what happened to him
    Pila Mulligan: it seems to me that there is a delicate continuity in dreams, and when it is disrupted the dream shifts or the dreamer wakes up
    Mickorod Renard: but I have been mystified for many years who the characters are in dreams
    Pila Mulligan: so asking them is okay, in my opinion :)
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,many years ago, I managed to practice,,and have some control within some dreams
    Mickorod Renard: like become concious,,yet still asleep with the tape running
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Mickorod Renard: if that makes sense
    Adams Dubrovna: Yesit does, that has been my experience off and on for the past year
    Pila Mulligan: Mick, you mean being conscious of dream events as they happen and then remembering them later?
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,and even to the point of stearing certain events in a dream
    Pila Mulligan: is that also what you meant, Adams?
    Mickorod Renard: steering
    Adams Dubrovna: no, I mispoke
    Adams Dubrovna: I simply remember dreams and they are in tune with my explorations
    Pila Mulligan: do you have a dream awareness in the dream? being aware that you are dreaming?
    Mickorod Renard: I see,,and may I ask the nature of the explorations?
    Adams Dubrovna: they have varied and I blog about them
    Mickorod Renard: cool
    Adams Dubrovna: but it has been a breaking down of my identities and attachments
    Mickorod Renard: I do often have dream awareness
    Adams Dubrovna: the dreams have provided clues
    Mickorod Renard: thats nice adams,,I too have made some discoveries about myself too,,this way
    Pila Mulligan: the hints from dreams can be quite subtle sometimes
    Adams Dubrovna: Sometimes the characters have meaning later
    Adams Dubrovna: yes Pila
    Mickorod Renard: this is interesting,,as some of my dreams are kept on hold for several months,,until my mind interprets them
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Mickorod Renard: others are dismisssed very easily and forgotten
    Adams Dubrovna: Mine seem to come clear within a day or two or they don't at all except for one I had which took a few weeks to come clear
    Adams Dubrovna: That was particularly important
    Pila Mulligan: your effrots may help make them more immediately sensible, Adams
    Pila Mulligan: your intent to deal with identities and attachments
    Mickorod Renard: nice,,I seem to sense a certain quality,or feel about a dream,,that sugests that it is for remembering..
    Pila Mulligan: now I had an unrealted expereince yesterday
    Mickorod Renard: please tell?
    Adams Dubrovna: Mine seem to be those I wake up during or after but often I know it has been recurring
    Adams Dubrovna: yess Pila?
    Pila Mulligan: an old friend from where i used to live called in the late morning
    Mickorod Renard: I see,,like a narative,thats on going?
    Pila Mulligan: on the phone, I had been tired and was taking a nap
    Mickorod Renard: in rl?
    Mickorod Renard: awake?
    Pila Mulligan: just before the phone rang, while I was still asleep, I heard his voice lod and clear say 'pick up the phone'
    Pila Mulligan: hi ShaktiShiva
    Adams Dubrovna: wow!
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Shak
    Adams Dubrovna: Hi ShaktShiva
    Mickorod Renard: that is so wierd
    ShaktiShiva Core: Hello, all. Mind if I listen for a while?
    Pila Mulligan: have you been here before ShaktiShiva?
    ShaktiShiva Core: Nope.
    ShaktiShiva Core: Anything I need to know?
    Pila Mulligan: let me give you a note card then pease
    Mickorod Renard: just done it
    Pila Mulligan: we have a website that posts the logs of these chats -- http://playasbeing.wik.is/
    Pila Mulligan: do you mind having your comments in the web log?
    Mickorod Renard: so what you may say could be read by anyone..;)
    Pila Mulligan: if you prefer, your comments can be made anonymous
    Mickorod Renard: I sometimes wake up to an alarm,,yet when I awake,,it has not yet gone off
    Pila Mulligan: :) timing anamoly
    Mickorod Renard: follows after about 2 mins
    Adams Dubrovna: :)
    ShaktiShiva Core: Well, I hope I don't so anything too untoward ... is keeping my comments but listing them as anonymous any difficulty?
    Pila Mulligan: kind of, actually :)
    Mickorod Renard: he he he
    ShaktiShiva Core: then don't worry about it
    Pila Mulligan: just a cut and paste for your name on the log
    Mickorod Renard: but you are very welcome Shak
    Pila Mulligan: we have been chatting about dreams today
    Pila Mulligan: thanks, then, I'll leave your name in the log today :)
    Mickorod Renard: so what do you make of your dream experience Pila?
    Pila Mulligan: it is as curious as my waking expereince, Mick
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,I can understand
    Pila Mulligan: these days I am looking at the filters between origins and perceptions
    Pila Mulligan: where did a perception originate
    Mickorod Renard: I have wondered for a long time whether the unharnessed mind/conciousness,can transcend time
    Pila Mulligan: probably it can
    Pila Mulligan: hi arabella
    arabella Ella: hiya
    Mickorod Renard: Hiya Ara
    Pila Mulligan: we have been chatting about dreams, again
    Mickorod Renard: just chatting about dreams
    arabella Ella: oh interesting
    Adams Dubrovna: hell Ara
    arabella Ella: except that i dream a lot and always forget my dreams when i wake up
    Adams Dubrovna: hello
    arabella Ella: i would love to be able to remember my dreams but i cant bring myself to write them when i wake up
    Pila Mulligan: rememebring is an obstacle, for sure
    Pila Mulligan: anyone have suggestions for helping remmeber dreams
    ShaktiShiva Core: I could babble off quite a few, but I'm more interested in why you want to remember them more often?
    arabella Ella: maxine had suggested we write them down once we wake up but i find that tough - not enough self discipline perhaps
    Adams Dubrovna: I do write them down as soon as I wake up
    arabella Ella: i want to remember them to reflect on them, to learn from them, some are worth remembering i know
    ShaktiShiva Core: Well, humans have actually been able to remember things without writing. I might not be a good example of this but . . . .
    ShaktiShiva Core: Yes, but what specifically do you hope to learn from them, I was wondering? Some psychologists have proposed that dreams are indications of neurosis and that dreamless sleep is actually a sign of health. (I don't necessarily agree.)
    Pila Mulligan: an aside: the older I get the more remembering things seems to involve some intent or focus -- notes help there
    Pila Mulligan: I think there may be a continuity between some dream expereince and some waking expereince
    ShaktiShiva Core: Right. Is why I'm asking more about the focus or intention behind remembering. Sometimes, if this isclarified, the doing is less of an effort, if not effortless.
    arabella Ella: i think dreams are part of our unconscious thought processes and reveal to us aspects about ourselves ... perhaps i am a bit too influenced by Freud on dreams?
    Pila Mulligan: some Tibetan books on dream yoga relate dreaming consciousness to waking cosnciousness
    ShaktiShiva Core: and Jung. Probably. I certainly am. But what unconscious materials are you hoping to access specifically and what do you want to happen with them? Following Freud too strictly, for instance, means you'll be carrying a lot of his psychological baggage with you.
    arabella Ella: well it is definitely not the guilt trip i am after
    ShaktiShiva Core: Pila, is that related to Indian systems? You know, the four states: waking, sleeping-dreaming, dreamless-sleep, and turiyaa.
    ShaktiShiva Core: hahaha
    arabella Ella: but as you know - we only know very little of our true selves
    Adams Dubrovna: I look at this purely on the level of watching myself, learning what I can
    arabella Ella: i am a curious person - i often ask why? then again why? and again why?
    Pila Mulligan: I read one of the Tibetan books ten years ago, it was mor eon technique than theory
    arabella Ella: delving deeper to attempt to gain understanding
    ShaktiShiva Core: I worry technique without theory can lead to dangerous misinterpretations.
    ShaktiShiva Core: Adams, that sounded like a Gurdjieff/Oudspensky perspective to me. Is that part of your background in mindfulness?
    Pila Mulligan: well, if the dream expereince is seen as part of a whole of expereince, it may need less interpretation
    Adams Dubrovna: Yes Pila
    Pila Mulligan: ShiveShakti mentioned the turiya state of transcendent consiousness
    Adams Dubrovna: It is part of our practice here Shakt, stopping and seeing
    Pila Mulligan: maybe we can aim for that :)
    Pila Mulligan: Maxine, the usual moderator for this session, likes to suggest that dreaming happens continuosly
    Adams Dubrovna: Time for me to run. Take care everyone :)
    arabella Ella: continuously - what does that mean? also when awake?
    ShaktiShiva Core: I agree with that. It fiddles with the definition of sleep/awake, revealing how fuzzy the definitions can be, but I agree.
    Pila Mulligan: bye Adams
    arabella Ella: bye Adams
    Mickorod Renard: bye adams
    Pila Mulligan: arabella, I tihnk she means that we always have dreams going on, and somtrimes we notice them
    Pila Mulligan: hi wol
    ShaktiShiva Core: I just got notice of an event. Will miss the calming pauses.
    Mickorod Renard: I think there are many posibilities
    Wol Euler: hello pila, ara, mick, shakti
    Pila Mulligan: by ShaktiShiva, noe to meet you
    Mickorod Renard: Hiya Wol
    Pila Mulligan: nice*
    arabella Ella: hiya Wol!
    ShaktiShiva Core: You, as well. I hope to talk to you all later. Goodbye.
    arabella Ella: bye Shaki
    Pila Mulligan: see you next time
    Mickorod Renard: bye Shak
    Mickorod Renard: you know what
    Wol Euler: tell me what.
    Pila Mulligan: hi Questa
    Mickorod Renard: we have to create future lil universe's all the time in our heads
    Mickorod Renard: Hiya questa
    Questa Blackheart: Hi
    arabella Ella: hiya Questa
    Wol Euler: hello questa
    Pila Mulligan: have you been here before Questa?
    Wol Euler: four days old :) welcome to second life
    Questa Blackheart: Yes, a couple of times.
    Pila Mulligan: welcome back, then
    Questa Blackheart: Thank you.
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Questa Blackheart: I guess I'm a bit late.
    Pila Mulligan: time is relative
    Mickorod Renard: its ok,,but i may have to leave you all now
    Questa Blackheart: So Albert reckons. :-)
    Questa Blackheart: Bye.
    Pila Mulligan: as Mick just noted, it lets us create little universes
    Pila Mulligan: bye Mick
    arabella Ella: bye mick
    arabella Ella: i gotta go too nite all
    Wol Euler: bye mick, take care
    Wol Euler: and bye ara
    Wol Euler: I got here just in time, I guess...
    Pila Mulligan: bye ara
    Questa Blackheart: Bye
    Mickorod Renard: bye,,must talk again on the subject
    Pila Mulligan: so it seems Wol :)
    Wol Euler: ah well.
    Questa Blackheart: Looks like I have missed everything.
    Wol Euler: me too.
    Pila Mulligan: oh, not everything :)
    Pila Mulligan: and what happened already will be on the website chat log
    Pila Mulligan: it was about dreaming
    Questa Blackheart: I will read it with interest.
    Wol Euler sighs. I'm sorry to have missed that, those sessions are interesting
    Pila Mulligan: dreaming is a fun topic
    Pila Mulligan: shall we continue?
    Pila Mulligan: or any other topic of interest?
    Questa Blackheart: Sure. I have a little bit of time.
    Questa Blackheart: I don't have a topic though.
    Pila Mulligan: well, here's a commen tI made earlier:
    Pila Mulligan: these days I am looking at the filters between origins and perceptions -- where did a perception originate
    Wol Euler smiles. Let us continue, then. The recorder is still running
    Pila Mulligan: this relates to dreams as well as waking
    Pila Mulligan: in a dream, an idea may weeks later dawn in relation to a dream perception
    Pila Mulligan: we see mental images and thoughts arise and we recognize them or not, but my question is more about how they get to us
    Questa Blackheart: I have read something interesting recently about the way we perceive things...
    Wol Euler: hmmmmm
    Pila Mulligan: cool -- please say more Questa
    Questa Blackheart: For example, we think we see a complete picture through our eyes...
    Questa Blackheart: Apart from the blind spot, which we are totally not aware of, our actual perception is seen through a series of interpretations.
    Questa Blackheart: Our mind fill sin the gaps so to speak.
    Pila Mulligan: so we have mind filters
    Pila Mulligan: and interpret things thgourh them
    Questa Blackheart: Yes.
    Wol Euler: Threedee said once that almost all of our vision is blurry and low-resolution, the area of accurate focusing is tiny, about the size of the eyeball of somebody standing at arm#s length from us
    Wol Euler: yet we imagine that we see the whole world in focus
    Wol Euler: because the brain patches together clearly-seen bits and blends over the edges.
    Questa Blackheart: Yes, that is pretty much what I read.
    Questa Blackheart: There is a part of the brain that perceives edges. Even though we may not see all of an edge, that part fills in the gap so we think we do.
    Pila Mulligan: well, let's think some more about dreaming in that sense then, please ....
    Pila Mulligan: we may see many people in a dream, but can we say those people are actually present in the dream
    Questa Blackheart: Ah, sorry. I did it again.
    Pila Mulligan: no problem Q :)
    Questa Blackheart: I don't know how you could make a statement like that if the dream itself is not a real thing.
    Pila Mulligan: that's the idea, what is the reality
    Wol Euler: the person in a dream is often a symbol of somebody or something else.
    Pila Mulligan: we have a mind that filters and interprets things
    Pila Mulligan: it takes impressions and formulates perceptions
    Questa Blackheart: I think the world would be a very confusing place if we didn't/
    Pila Mulligan: but the same process is probably hapening in dreams
    Pila Mulligan: so could the symbol of the person in the dream, as Wol said, have an actual origin elsewhere?
    Pila Mulligan: for example, may a thought you hold now appear later in my dream?
    Pila Mulligan: or vice versa
    Pila Mulligan: or, may a person's thought find its way into another person's dream without any delay?
    Wol Euler: oh, interesting.
    Pila Mulligan: so that the idea originates with one thought and then the impression appears elsewhere
    Pila Mulligan: with whatever symbols and associations the mind gives it as interpretation
    Questa Blackheart: The interconnectedness of all things?
    Pila Mulligan: yes
    Questa Blackheart: With that, all things are possible,
    Pila Mulligan: this hypothetical process may apply to both dreaming and waking
    Pila Mulligan: maybe we should call it co-dependent origination :)
    Questa Blackheart: :)
    Pila Mulligan: and take it to Stim's Thurday workshop :)
    Wol Euler: I've hard that before somehwere ...
    Wol Euler: *heard
    Questa Blackheart: Dependent origination maybe. :)
    Questa Blackheart: It's a Buddhist term.
    Pila Mulligan: yep, interrelated is the thought
    Questa Blackheart: Dependent origination is what brings us into existence.
    Questa Blackheart: Hi Kenji.
    Pila Mulligan: that was my aim in wondering about how the mind filters impressions and interprets things -- and their origins
    Wol Euler: hello kenji
    kenji Pookes: Hi
    Pila Mulligan: hi Kenji
    kenji Pookes: Hi all
    Pila Mulligan: we are still on the subject of dreaming kind of Kenji
    Questa Blackheart: Maybe it's not so different to what the mind does when we are awake.
    kenji Pookes: Thanks
    Questa Blackheart: Maybe we just create the world in a slightly different way.
    Pila Mulligan: well, the waking state is more solid it seems
    Pila Mulligan: so that would account for the differences
    Questa Blackheart: But may that is only a perception.
    Pila Mulligan: yes, true
    Questa Blackheart: Most of us don't know we are dreaming when we are.
    Pila Mulligan: and some of us forget we are awake :)
    kenji Pookes: REally? I'm not so sure about that.
    Questa Blackheart: Neither am I. It's just an idea.
    kenji Pookes: We diffrentiate lucid dreams from regular dreams, which would suggest that normally we are in some way aware of dreaming.
    Pila Mulligan: menaing there are degrees of lucidiy or awareness?
    kenji Pookes: I meant that some dreams are defined as lucid dreams, meaning that we are NOT in those dreams aware that we are dreaming--they seem real.
    Pila Mulligan: does remembering them affect our 'knowing' them?
    kenji Pookes: I may have that wrong. I looked it up and found that a lucid dream is when someone is aware that he/she is dreaming and can participate consciously in he dream. Different from what I thought.
    Questa Blackheart: I think lucid dreaming is just another filter, another layer of interpretation.
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Questa Blackheart: If we think we are in control of a dream how do we know that that isn't just a perception?
    kenji Pookes: What's the difference between a dream and perception?
    Wol Euler: perhaps we merely dream that we are controlling the dream?
    Pila Mulligan: a lucid dream can seem so real that not only do you recognize you are dreaming, you also doubt the validity of differentiating the expereince from waking experinece
    kenji Pookes: Yes
    kenji Pookes: In other words some dreams seem so real that they do not appear to be dreams.
    Pila Mulligan: yes, our knowledge of reality needs to incroprate that expereince the same as it does waking expereince to have a grasp of the perception
    Pila Mulligan: but time continuity seems to be a big factor in diffrentiating dreams from waking life
    kenji Pookes: How is "iknowledge of reality" difffernt from "perception", which is implied by your last sentence Pila?
    Pila Mulligan: well, we have perceptions all the time, but we cannot possibly rememebr them all
    Pila Mulligan: at least i cannot
    Pila Mulligan: soe we consturct knowlegde from them
    kenji Pookes: That would seem to be memory rather than knowledge of reality.
    Pila Mulligan: to me they are the same
    kenji Pookes: Do we construct knowledge from memory or from perception or both?
    Pila Mulligan: both
    Pila Mulligan: but we do not always rememebr every pereption
    kenji Pookes: What's memory?
    Pila Mulligan: recollections of perceptions
    kenji Pookes: But I can remember things that I have not perceived--I can remember a dream.
    Pila Mulligan: how did you have the dream i fnot by perception?
    kenji Pookes: I think of perception as processing of external stimuli.
    Pila Mulligan: you missed the earlier part here where I suggested dreams are respionse to eexternal stimulii
    kenji Pookes: Crud, TExas just lost to TCU in baseball Super Regional.
    kenji Pookes: I see.
    Questa Blackheart: Sorry, I have to go.
    Pila Mulligan: bye Questa
    kenji Pookes: Bye, Questa.
    Wol Euler: bye questa, take care.
    Pila Mulligan: nice to meet you
    Questa Blackheart: Bye all.
    Wol Euler: I shall have to be going too, work tomorrow; and "tomorrow" is 21 minutes away
    Wol Euler: goodnight all, take care.
    Pila Mulligan: bye Wol, sweet dreams :)
    kenji Pookes: Goodnight.
    kenji Pookes: I think I'll move on, as well. Need to make dinner.
    Pila Mulligan: bye Kenji
    kenji Pookes: Cheers.
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