2009.06.10 13:00 - PaB Community Culture

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    The Guardian for this meeting was genesis Zhangsun. The comments are by genesis Zhangsun.

    genesis Zhangsun: Hey Questa!
    Questa Blackheart: Hi Genesis
    genesis Zhangsun: nice to see you again
    Questa Blackheart: Thank you. You too.
    Questa Blackheart: Are you the host?
    genesis Zhangsun: yes
    Questa Blackheart: Good. :)
    genesis Zhangsun: so have you been attending meetings regularly?
    Questa Blackheart: I have been to 3, I think.
    genesis Zhangsun: and how are you enjoying them?
    Questa Blackheart: I enjoy them very much!
    genesis Zhangsun: wonderful
    genesis Zhangsun: so Questa have you started the 9 second practice?
    Questa Blackheart: No.
    genesis Zhangsun: Oh hey Wol!
    Wol Euler: hello gen, questa
    Questa Blackheart: I have my own meditation practice though.
    Questa Blackheart: Hi Wol.
    genesis Zhangsun: that was interesting you sank into the cushion for a moment for me Wol
    Wol Euler: yeah, I stll had my AO on :)
    Wol Euler: how are we all today?
    Questa Blackheart: Fine although rather tired.
    Questa Blackheart: I don't think I will last the full session.
    Wol Euler: oh dear.
    Questa Blackheart: It's been a busy week so far with work and children.
    genesis Zhangsun: I am spacing out
    Wol Euler: :)
    genesis Zhangsun: as maybe you can tell
    Questa Blackheart: You do look a bit out of it Genesis. :)
    genesis Zhangsun: /m does not hide mind states very well
    genesis Zhangsun: yes Questa taking care of kids takes alot out of you
    Wol Euler: what#s up, gen?
    genesis Zhangsun: ?
    Questa Blackheart: I have a 2 year old who is being a 2 year old and a baby who has cut his first teeth at 4 1/2 months.
    genesis Zhangsun: oh my!
    genesis Zhangsun: that little
    genesis Zhangsun: yes a lot of work and sleepless nights
    genesis Zhangsun: congrats!
    Questa Blackheart: Thanks. :)
    genesis Zhangsun: oh nothing is up Wol I am just out of it
    Wol Euler smiles
    Wol Euler: ah, ok :)
    genesis Zhangsun: I've been this way for days
    Wol Euler: heh
    Wol Euler: hello fefonz
    genesis Zhangsun: kind of stranfe
    genesis Zhangsun: hi fefonz
    sophia Placebo: hi all
    Fefonz Quan: Hello all
    Wol Euler: hello sophia
    genesis Zhangsun: hi sophia
    Questa Blackheart: Hi Fefonz.
    Questa Blackheart: Hi Sophia
    genesis Zhangsun: I feel the way that I was feeling before I started meditating
    genesis Zhangsun: my life passing by me
    genesis Zhangsun: a feeling that I need to catch up but not sure to what
    Wol Euler: oh, wow.
    genesis Zhangsun: that was really dramatic sorry
    Wol Euler shrugs and smiles. Don't apologise for telling us how you are.
    Questa Blackheart: Nothing to apologise for.
    Wol Euler: *are feeling
    Fefonz Quan nods
    genesis Zhangsun: no but it really isn't that bad
    genesis Zhangsun: its kind of numbing
    genesis Zhangsun: like watchin tv
    genesis Zhangsun: kind of distanced
    Fefonz Quan: is it a constant feeling or coming and going in waves?
    genesis Zhangsun: pretty constant
    genesis Zhangsun: its actually quite a stable kind of distanced
    Questa Blackheart: Are you uncomfortable with the feeling?
    genesis Zhangsun: there is a part of me that is uncomfortable or I wouldn't bring it up
    Wol Euler nods
    Questa Blackheart: Sure.
    Fefonz Quan: maybe we shouldn't expect meditation to solve all things, maybe other method can apply too
    Questa Blackheart: Has something happened or changed to make you feel like this?
    Fefonz Quan: methods*
    Questa Blackheart: Meditation certainly isn;t a cure-all. Sometimes I find it quite disturbing.
    genesis Zhangsun: oh yeah my meditation is totally disturbing right now
    Fefonz Quan: i can say i am familiar with that sort of feeling, but for short times mostly
    Questa Blackheart: Hi Kenji
    kenji Pookes: Hello
    genesis Zhangsun: HI Kenji!
    Fefonz Quan: Hi Kenji
    sophia Placebo: hi kenji
    Fefonz Quan: and meditatin might be a little distancing by itself, mainly when sittig, isolated
    Fefonz Quan: sitting*
    Questa Blackheart: Yes, it can be.
    Wol Euler: hello kenji
    kenji Pookes: Hi
    sophia Placebo: once i was looking at the cat in the garden then i thought omg im not the only living creature
    sophia Placebo: it was like looking at new living creature or an alien
    genesis Zhangsun: yes so often we don't even recognize the existence of other beings
    genesis Zhangsun: today a deer appeared in my window and we had a moment where we started at eachother
    Wol Euler: wow!
    sophia Placebo: re distance due meditation , in my case it makes me feel part of the world suddenly , more feeling like it i mean
    genesis Zhangsun: and recognized one another and sort of connected not to sound too new agey
    sophia Placebo: you lucky gen :)
    Fefonz Quan: new ageyness has some good things about it :)
    Questa Blackheart: Yes, as long as you don't take it too seriously. :)
    kenji Pookes: How would that be different, qualitatively, from what I do when I encounter a deer--run it off?
    Questa Blackheart: I think recognising a connection with other creatures is something most people experience.
    Questa Blackheart: Why do you do that, Kenji?
    genesis Zhangsun: you chase deer around Kenji?
    kenji Pookes: Well, first of all, I hate deer.
    genesis Zhangsun: oh
    Questa Blackheart: I hate wasps but I think I have good reason. :)
    kenji Pookes: They infest my neighborhood, eat every flower and vegetable in sight, and cause $3500 in damage when you hist one--they are really stupid.
    kenji Pookes: But aside from that, what I really meant was how is my action a different or similar kind of connection to the one when you seem to "connect" with the animal. I am connecting, but in a different way--through fear and loathing.
    Wol Euler raises a finger to her lips
    genesis Zhangsun: [13:29] kenji Pookes: They infest my neighborhood, eat every flower and vegetable in sight, and cause $3500 in damage when you hist one--they are really stupid.
    kenji Pookes: Sorry, I hit reutn just as the bell rang.
    sophia Placebo: hehe kenji
    genesis Zhangsun: hey I know another species like that
    genesis Zhangsun: humans!
    Wol Euler: no worries
    Questa Blackheart: Isn't the difference self-evident Kenji?
    genesis Zhangsun: I bet that deer hates you as much you hate it!
    kenji Pookes: Humans don't eat my flowers.
    kenji Pookes: And they don't usualy jump in front of my car, either.
    Fefonz Quan: just recently i had more strong examples how connecting with others can be of the most basic, strengthening and vivid experience one can have
    kenji Pookes: It probably does. A sort of connection?
    genesis Zhangsun: what I meant was that from the deer's perspective you are invading its territory
    genesis Zhangsun: in the same way as you see the deer invading yours
    kenji Pookes: Yes, I think so. And I do think there is a connection there--not of a sort os spiritual nature, but of a more visceral nature.
    Fefonz Quan: in a way i believe fear and loathe are connection antidotes
    Fefonz Quan: they make seperation, not unification
    Fefonz Quan: so i guess genesis was speaking about a different exerience then kenji
    kenji Pookes: Could be. The dear don't fear me as much as I loath them, though. This is going to sound vulgar, but there is a point. Another way to connect with another being is to kill it. When my wife hit the deer the other day, she was extremely shaken, not becuase of the damage to the car ( which is what bothered me), but because she was afraid that she killing a living thing. And she watched it fly over her hood and into the ditch. She got quite upset when she saw deer hair on the front of the car.
    Questa Blackheart: As would most of us.
    Questa Blackheart: I accidentally hit a pheasant once. I was pretty upset about it.
    genesis Zhangsun: yeah okay so deer kind of hit a nerve I see
    kenji Pookes: I'm not so sure about that. There may be a gender difference operating there, as well. But my point is that when you have that type of encounter with an animal, it also reminds you powerfully that there are other living things around us.
    genesis Zhangsun: indeed kenji
    kenji Pookes: ANd, of course, there is a hierarchy of connection. My wwife has absoltely no problem klling a cockroach.
    Questa Blackheart: Ah. I do.
    kenji Pookes: Well, she has no problem asking me to kill a cockroach.
    sophia Placebo: :)
    kenji Pookes: Yes, many Buddhists also would have trouble killing a cockroach.
    Questa Blackheart: And sometimes we find it necessary, unless we can come up with a better option.
    sophia Placebo: im thinking what it would take to distinguish them
    kenji Pookes: You mean cockroaches and deer?
    sophia Placebo: cockroaches , they are since dinosors
    sophia Placebo: extinguish them * sorry for spelling
    Questa Blackheart: The difference is obvious. Disney didn't make a film where a cockroaches mother got killed.
    kenji Pookes: Yes, Questa, I think that is part of it. Also, I think the experience that deer have seems to us to be more like ours than the experience that cockroaches have.
    kenji Pookes: Also, cockroaches are gross.
    Questa Blackheart: If they did, I missed it.
    kenji Pookes: You missed Roachbi? It is about a cute little roach with spots on its back.
    Questa Blackheart: :)
    Wol Euler: what is this about, Kenji?
    kenji Pookes: What do you mean?
    Fefonz Quan: (pun, i guess)
    Fefonz Quan: Hi Gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello all :) Sorry for being late.
    sophia Placebo: hi gaya
    Questa Blackheart: Hi Gaya.
    kenji Pookes: Hi
    genesis Zhangsun: Hi Gaya
    Questa Blackheart: Kenji, do you really believe what you say or are you just trying to provoke a reaction?
    kenji Pookes: Huh?
    Wol Euler: what are you doing here? Are we subjects in an anthropology experiment? I'm really curious
    Questa Blackheart: Interesting reaction.
    kenji Pookes: I thought I was participating in the discussion. Anthropologists don't conduct experiments. Apparently my identity in RL is a problem fo you.
    Questa Blackheart: I don't know your identity in RL.
    arabella Ella: hiya
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello arabella :)
    Wol Euler: hello ara, gaya
    kenji Pookes: And I do believe what I was saying, otherwise I wouldn't have said it. I am not a lier and I have no interest in provoking anything or anyone. I thought it was pertinant to the point that Gen made about connection with animals.
    Questa Blackheart: Hiya Arabella.
    Fefonz Quan: Hey Ara
    Gaya Ethaniel: What did Kenji say? I'm curious ...
    kenji Pookes: liar
    sophia Placebo: hi ara
    kenji Pookes: I made the mistake of saying what I think---again.
    arabella Ella: hiya everyone
    Gaya Ethaniel: This could be a wrong impression but ... are you guys ganging up on Kenji?
    Questa Blackheart: Hi Arabella.
    sophia Placebo: i dont understand whats wrng with what kenji said
    kenji Pookes: Looks that way.
    Questa Blackheart: It seems that way, doesn't it. Sorry Kenji. YOu are obviously much misunderstood.
    arabella Ella: and what did kenji say may i ask?
    Wol Euler: possibly. I'm sorry. I've had an odd week and am taking it out here.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Surely we can disagree here ...?
    kenji Pookes: If you want me to leave, please just say so and I'll do so. I'm not sure what the problem is but I have no intention of bothering anyone. I find this place interesting and enlightening. apparently the feeling is not mutual
    Gaya Ethaniel: I'm not guaranteeing that I won't be 'provoked' by what Kenji said though ... alas my name is human >.<
    sophia Placebo: wait kenji lets understand the thoughts here
    arabella Ella: ken if anyone wants you to leave they would have said so already
    Gaya Ethaniel hugs Wol.
    kenji Pookes: It certainly has been implied.
    Questa Blackheart: I'm going to call it a night. Goodnight all.
    kenji Pookes: I'd rather it be said outright.
    Fefonz Quan: kenji, i don't think this was an issue of oppinions, but more an issue of atmosphere and a diversion in the course the conversation had before
    genesis Zhangsun: night questa
    Wol Euler: I'm sorry, the problem is me. I shall withdraw for today. Goodnight all.
    sophia Placebo: bye questa
    Fefonz Quan: night questa
    arabella Ella: nite wol
    arabella Ella: nite questa
    Gaya Ethaniel: hm ...
    kenji Pookes: But the conversation was dealing with Gen's experience of an encounter with an animal and the issue of recognizing that there are other living things in the world. I thought that was what I was talking about.
    Gaya Ethaniel looks at the fountain ...
    Fefonz Quan: no, that was the line of the conversation when you came kenji, but there was a broader issue before it
    kenji Pookes: It may just be that I'm not terribly bright and, therefore, my ideas don't come through well.
    genesis Zhangsun: no I think you just kind of came into another conversation
    genesis Zhangsun: but it doesn't matter we all change the course of a conversation
    genesis Zhangsun: thats how it goes
    Fefonz Quan: yes, but if you read only the last line, it is hard to get the feeling of things
    Fefonz Quan: there is a game of writing a story seeing only the last line, it getrs quite bizzare
    kenji Pookes: Then why must people say things like " what are you doing here? Are we subjects in an anthropology experiment? I'm really curious" ? Frankly, I find that quite offensive and hurtful.
    kenji Pookes: As it was intended.
    genesis Zhangsun: yes kenji some people will disagree with you
    genesis Zhangsun: of course that happens
    genesis Zhangsun: I have been hurt here too
    genesis Zhangsun: but I have also had a great time!
    Gaya Ethaniel nods nods.
    genesis Zhangsun: it comes with it
    arabella Ella: i am sure you would have asked for informed consent first ken if we were as that is what is done on SL too
    kenji Pookes: Disagreement and personal attack are different things. I don't mind of people disagree with me. I don't see any need to make those kind of comments, however.
    genesis Zhangsun: yes arabella I think Wol was just making the point that there is a lack of common intention
    arabella Ella nods
    kenji Pookes: If I were doing research, I would have asked for informed consent and would have an accepted IRB proposal; neither of which I have.
    genesis Zhangsun: I don't think she believes that kenji is studying us
    Gaya Ethaniel: I know Wol really well ... whether you see it or not, it seems that she was provoked by your comments.
    genesis Zhangsun: yes kenji understood
    Gaya Ethaniel: Of course it's not about you or Wol being right or wrong Kenji ...
    kenji Pookes: Clearly she was provoked, but I have no idea why. however, this is a fairly pointless conversation. I'd much rather go back to the topic that was at hand.
    sophia Placebo: you can just simply asked her why
    arabella Ella: yes that is an advantage on sl
    Gaya Ethaniel: She doesn't talk about it just now sophia ... I will ask her later.
    Gaya Ethaniel: She is one of the most reasonable and patient person I know ... so she would have her reasons for this I'm sure.
    sophia Placebo: i wouldnt asked her thats kenji question
    Fefonz Quan: kenji, i think the issue is that the topic you thought is at hand was not the topic at hand
    Gaya Ethaniel: In the past as well, when we perceived someone trying to change ongoing conversation forcefully this kind of thing happened.
    Gaya Ethaniel: [Assuming that was the case]
    Fefonz Quan: in this case not intentionally forcefully, just by a misunderstanding for my opinion
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah ok that's really good to know, hope that's the case :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: I think we are largely used to having new people coming in and getting 'used' to the group at a 'slow' pace.
    genesis Zhangsun: there is a certain "culture" specific to this group kenji
    genesis Zhangsun: it takes awhile to get into
    arabella Ella nods
    sophia Placebo: see all later
    arabella Ella: bye soph
    Gaya Ethaniel: Bye sophia :)
    genesis Zhangsun: bye sophia
    Fefonz Quan: bye sophia
    arabella Ella: Fefonz is Stim's session on tonite?
    arabella Ella: at Kira i mean
    Gaya Ethaniel: The workshop is tomorrow.
    Fefonz Quan: isn't it tomorrow?
    arabella Ella: oh ok thanks
    genesis Zhangsun: Wol asked me to send this: Wol Euler: I am sorry, I was clearly as out of sync with the group's spirit as I thought that Kenji was.
    arabella Ella: i lost track sometimes of which day sessions are on :)
    genesis Zhangsun: oops
    genesis Zhangsun: missed the silence
    arabella Ella: my fault apologies!
    Gaya Ethaniel: :) that happens.
    arabella Ella: i started off with a nod as i suppose one can nod in silence then i went on ...
    genesis Zhangsun: sorry I am not typing
    genesis Zhangsun: it just looked like
    genesis Zhangsun: it
    arabella Ella: happens too
    genesis Zhangsun: anyway Wol recognizes that the way she reacted was not in the spirit of our group
    genesis Zhangsun: which I agree with
    genesis Zhangsun: we try to practice openess and tolerance
    genesis Zhangsun: sometimes we fail
    genesis Zhangsun: thats part of being human
    Gaya Ethaniel shrugs ...
    arabella Ella: but ... we are all human ... and i personally do not believe anything comes out of pointing fingers
    arabella Ella: blaming one person or another leads nowhere
    Gaya Ethaniel: This group ... is precious to many of us here Kenji so it can get a bit emotional sometimes >.<
    arabella Ella nods
    genesis Zhangsun: yes and sometimes we learn more from the emotional clashes than we would like
    kenji Pookes: Obviously.
    genesis Zhangsun: I think back on every conflict we have had here in this group
    arabella Ella: and it is amazing too how it manages to sustain itself ... as a group ... over time
    genesis Zhangsun: and I am truly thankful for each one
    genesis Zhangsun: because I think we all learned a lot
    genesis Zhangsun: from the people who provoked us the most for one reason or another
    Gaya Ethaniel nods.
    genesis Zhangsun: and what really is about is to keep the relationship going
    genesis Zhangsun: to keep interacting and facing one another even if it hurts
    genesis Zhangsun: because we're that much closer to knowing ourselves and things as they truly are
    Gaya Ethaniel: They have given us real opportunities to practice what we discuss and are concerned about at PaB too.
    arabella Ella: and we have some fantastic role models here too ... i can think of a few :)
    Mickorod Renard: Hi all
    arabella Ella: their openness and tolerance and guidance and advice are amazing
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Mick :)
    Fefonz Quan: Hey Micko
    arabella Ella: hiya micko
    genesis Zhangsun: HI Mick
    genesis Zhangsun: oh no I have to go to the team meeting!
    Gaya Ethaniel: Enjoy your day gen :)
    arabella Ella: oh and their leadership qualities too which are very facilitating rather than directive
    arabella Ella: bye gen
    Mickorod Renard: bye gen
    kenji Pookes: Bye Gen
    Fefonz Quan: me too. Bye all !
    arabella Ella: bye Fefon
    Mickorod Renard: bye Fef
    Gaya Ethaniel: Good night Fefonz :)
    genesis Zhangsun: bye!
    arabella Ella: nite
    genesis Zhangsun: bye everyone!
    genesis Zhangsun: bye Kenji!
    arabella Ella: bye gen
    genesis Zhangsun: bye!
    Mickorod Renard: bye Ken
    kenji Pookes: Bye Mick
    Gaya Ethaniel: Must go to bed here too. Have a good day/night :) Kenji, see you again soon.
    Mickorod Renard: bye gaya
    kenji Pookes: Perhaps.
    arabella Ella: nite Gaya
    arabella Ella: i'll be off too
    Mickorod Renard: nite ALL
    arabella Ella: nite ken and go easy
    arabella Ella: nite mick
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