2009.06.10 19:00 - A question of discourse

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    The Guardian for this meeting was stevenaia Michinaga. The comments are by stevenaia Michinaga.

    Pema Pera and cosmic Ghost join me with cosmic dancing all over the place.

    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Pema, didn;t you get my email?


    I had emailed the group earlier to tell them I would take this open Guardian slot 


    Pema Pera: Hi Steve!

    Pema Pera: Yes, I got it, thank you very much!

    stevenaia Michinaga: it seems it was ment to be

    stevenaia Michinaga: :)

    Pema Pera: I wasn't completely sure whether you would be here tonite too, so I was just checking :-)

    stevenaia Michinaga: strange, my emails to the PaB Group never come back to me, so I never know if they went out, must be a google thing

    stevenaia Michinaga: how is Germany?

    Pema Pera: oh fine! very busy, staying in a different place for a few days at a time

    Pema Pera: fun, but I'm also looking forward to staying at the same place again for a while

    Pema Pera: which will happen soonish, when I settle in Kyoto for more than a month

    Pema Pera: starting ten days from now

    Pema Pera: how are things with you?

    stevenaia Michinaga: I will be missing a few wednesdays in July, I will try to find a suitable replacement

    stevenaia Michinaga: I will be off to the Jersey shore and Montreal

    stevenaia Michinaga: things are good, never a steady state, always nicely in flux

    stevenaia Michinaga: Hello Cosmic, nice to see you again

    Pema Pera: Hi Cosmic!

    Pema Pera: nice to meet you

    cosmic Ghost: WHOOPIE !!! ...

    cosmic Ghost: WHOOPIE! ! ! !!

    stevenaia Michinaga: that's quite an animation

    cosmic Ghost: and u 2 big boy

    stevenaia Michinaga: I seem to remember seeing you where but I don;t remember when

    kenji Pookes joins us

    Pema Pera: Hi Kenji

    kenji Pookes: Hi all

    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Kenji

    stevenaia Michinaga: :)

    cosmic Ghost: i don't look happy but i am

    cosmic Ghost: its just the face i was born with

    Pema Pera: well, I think I'm trying to get some more sleep -- it's 4:15 here in Germany -- I was just checking in to make sure this slot was taken care of. Thanks again, Steve, for taking over this slot for now, and I hope we'll get someone else to replace you again soon.

    stevenaia Michinaga: :)

    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, get some sleep

    Pema Pera: bye for now, Kenji, Cosmic, Steve!

    cosmic Ghost: WHOOPIE !!! ...

    cosmic Ghost: WHOOPIE! ! ! !!

    kenji Pookes: Bye

    stevenaia Michinaga: awww, that's the Cosmic I remember

    stevenaia Michinaga: there was a disconnect between appearances and memory

    stevenaia Michinaga: always interesting how appearances and sense of memories are connected

    stevenaia Michinaga: now I have to think of you in three ways cosmic

    stevenaia Michinaga: it may be to much for me :)

    stevenaia Michinaga: how are you Keni?

    kenji Pookes: I'm ok.

    stevenaia Michinaga: Kenji

    kenji Pookes: How are you?

    stevenaia Michinaga: Been keeping busy, happy, and amused

    kenji Pookes: That's good.

    kenji Pookes: This is entertaining.

    kenji Pookes: Stevenaia, may I ask you a question about PaB?

    stevenaia Michinaga: sure

    Kinji ask about PaB and his recent experiences here with the group

    kenji Pookes: I was wondering what, from your perspective, the purpose of this place is. I've had a rather unpleasant week here and was wondering if I simply don't understand the purpose of the place.

    cosmic Ghost: WHOOPIE !!! ...

    cosmic Ghost: WHOOPIE! ! ! !!

    stevenaia Michinaga: there is much written on the wiki, have you read it?

    kenji Pookes: I have.

    stevenaia Michinaga: but the reason for this group is to give reality a unique and personal perspective

    stevenaia Michinaga: and to take from others their experiences and add them to your own

    stevenaia Michinaga: over the year the basis of the experiences I have gathered here have been enriching

    kenji Pookes: OK. That's basically what I thought. IS it unacceptable to bring in an intellectual perspective?

    stevenaia Michinaga: not at all, as we can then bring our own perspectives on those thoughts

    kenji Pookes: That, too, is what I thought. But I have been rather thoroughly shot down while trying to voice my own thoughts and experiences in a couple of cases this week. So I have begun to think that I don't understand the purpose of PaB.

    stevenaia Michinaga: when I first got here it took me a while to understand the flow, but over time it becomes easier

    Corvi arrived on my head......

    stevenaia Michinaga: nice landing Corvi

    stevenaia Michinaga: smiles

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi, Steve, Kenji.

    kenji Pookes: Hi

    Corvuscorva Nightfire whaps Steve with the nearest pillow.

    kenji Pookes: There seem to be different dynamics depending upon the grouping, as well.

    stevenaia Michinaga: I can't imagine ideas being "shot down" it is usually a very open group

    kenji Pookes: I was accused of running an anthropological experiment today--something that is unimaginable to me.

    stevenaia Michinaga: accused???

    kenji Pookes: yes

    stevenaia Michinaga: should be interesting reading :)

    stevenaia Michinaga: it is best to not take things to personally, or we all would have been offended by cosmic ghost

    kenji Pookes: I was also asked what I want out of PaB, as though I was intruding and as though I was trying to, what's the word?, I can't remember the SL word for it, but cause trouble.

    stevenaia Michinaga: may I ask who?

    kenji Pookes: I don't take them personally, but I am rather surprised at the lack of civility.

    kenji Pookes: The same sort of thing happened with two different people, once on Monday and today.

    stevenaia Michinaga: how unusual, see, whatever you did, there is rally no excuse for that sort of response

    stevenaia Michinaga: what was alleged experiment?

    stevenaia Michinaga: maybe I will have an abrupt reaction as well...smiles

    kenji Pookes: Apparently what I did was raised questions and challenged the concept of being on Monday. Today, I simply was pointing out an experience with hitting a deer with a car while we were discussing connection between humans and animals and awareness of mutual life.

    kenji Pookes: I have no idea what the experiment was supposed to be.

    kenji Pookes: I enjoy exchange of ideas and experiences, so it was disappointing. I was also told I don't listen--which would be hard to do and also engage in a discussion.

    kenji Pookes: Oh well, no point whining about it. How are you Corvuscorva?

    stevenaia Michinaga: much of what I enjoy about this group, even with extreme individuals (not currently including you) is to listen and lean, what you proposed was not even personally confrontational

    kenji Pookes: I didn't think so--you can read the chat log, but I didn't intend it that way in any case.

    kenji Pookes: Oh well.

    stevenaia Michinaga: the idea here is if you can be open... in general, all perspectives and be a common pool for learn from

    kenji Pookes: Makes sense to me.

    stevenaia Michinaga: But, you see, I only speak for me

    stevenaia Michinaga: :)

    kenji Pookes: Yes, I'm sure there are different opinions about the aim of PaB.

    stevenaia Michinaga: I wonder , even knowing the "aim" which path will eventually get us there and if this is the path

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I'm pretty sure an aim is counterproductive.

    stevenaia Michinaga: that is the point of this "experiment" of pema's

    kenji Pookes: And, of course, the question of "where" is quite problematic.

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: nods.

    kenji Pookes: I agree Corvuscorva.

    stevenaia Michinaga: now now, point of any experiment is to not presume the answer

    stevenaia Michinaga: just to wait and see if something or nothing happens

    kenji Pookes: True.

    kenji Pookes: OF course, this is an experiment in the social sciences more than anything, which creates some different types of parameters.

    kenji Pookes: Or maybe not. IT is an experiment related to behavior--not necessarily social science.

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: wait..

    stevenaia Michinaga: a friend in college did his PhD thesis on proving something was not possible, somehow he figured that out in his experiment

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: wait..its not an experiment, really.

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: not really.

    kenji Pookes: Did he prove it is not possible to write a dissertation?

    stevenaia Michinaga: no I think he did complete his dissertation

    kenji Pookes: Corvuscorva, what did you mean?

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: please call me Corvi, Kenji..I meant that this is not really an experiment, so much as a way of debriefing about experience.

    stevenaia Michinaga: if you ask pema, I believe he would say this is an experiment on understanding the nature of reality

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and if a hypothesis about the nature of reality shows up..we'll each be lucky to glimpse it.

    kenji Pookes: Thanks, Corvi--much easier to type.

    stevenaia Michinaga: I asked him once what the application of this is and his response...pure research w/o application

    Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles.

    stevenaia Michinaga: *application

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: yeah..he's stretching it in my humble opinion to call it an experiment in the scientific manner.

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: but..we each do experiment with ideas here...over an over again.

    kenji Pookes: But research into what?

    stevenaia Michinaga: that;s the point, it's what's next.. after science

    kenji Pookes: I realize that it is the nature of reality. but I wonder how this is research into that. IT is research into ideas about reality.

    kenji Pookes: I see. After science--an interesting idea.

    stevenaia Michinaga: "IT"?

    kenji Pookes: ?

    stevenaia Michinaga: "IT is research into ideas about reality."

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: the point is to reach into our own experience, share it with each other and see if further understanding can come from it.

    stevenaia Michinaga: nods

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: it's additive or multiplicative knowledge.

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: unlike debate

    kenji Pookes: I suppose IT is that.

    kenji Pookes: Makes sense. But debate is also additive knowledge. Socratic method and all that.

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: grins, nods.

    kenji Pookes: Everything really is additive knowledge, I suppose.

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: yeah..it is..but some ways of discourse work better in different situations, yanno/

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: ?

    stevenaia Michinaga: only if you are open to accepting it

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: this one...debate seems not to work well, except if it's agreed upon before the session.

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: so sometimes two people will set up a debate, carefully before the session.

    kenji Pookes: Yes, I've noticed that raising alternative ideas--particularly if they are presented as a challenge to assumptions--does not work here.

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: thinks.

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: it's a slippery slope.

    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, there have been "dialogues" here or themes

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: the traditional landscape of debate with point/counterpoint and thesis doesn't work well.

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: here.

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: except in those agreed upon debates.

    kenji Pookes: It is. If I start raising questions based upon things coming to mind as the discussion occurs, it comes off as I'm trying to debate. It quickly becomes interpreted that way.

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: nods thoughtfully.

    stevenaia Michinaga: are you from an academic background?

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: a method that works well here, is to let one persons lead and find out more about their experience, without challenging it.

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: then to add your experience, even if it's wildly different.

    kenji Pookes: Yeah, I'm a professor--from a family of multi-generation academics.

    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: professor of what, Kenji?

    stevenaia Michinaga: and Pema is a professor outside the normal box

    kenji Pookes: The difficulty, of course, is that most of my "experience" is related to thinking, research,, etc.

    kenji Pookes: I'm an anthropologist.

    stevenaia Michinaga: someone has to live out there :)

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: ah!

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: me thinks.

    stevenaia Michinaga: while I research :)

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: so this is a different atmosphere than you are used to.

    kenji Pookes: It is different.

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: nods.

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: it does have it's own culture.

    kenji Pookes: I would say it has its patterns--not really a culture.

    stevenaia Michinaga: I view pema as an anthropologist of humanities and scientific future

    Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs...ok..patterns.

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: let me give you an alternative way to challenge my language?

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: one that might work better here?

    kenji Pookes: I don't mean to be too picky, but I'm not sure what constitutes "culture" in SL.

    kenji Pookes: If you wish.

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: no..it's ok...but let me share with you how I might do that.

    kenji Pookes: sure

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I might say..."corvi, tell me what you mean when you say culture?"

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: then..even if what corvi means is very different..we now share a language.

    kenji Pookes: That's fine. But it raises another question--is disagreement not permitted in PaB? I'm beginning to see not simply patterns, but rules that are not simply in the wiki, but have become part of the understood basis for interaction.

    kenji Pookes: That's normally, o course.

    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods smiling broadly.

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: yes it is.

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: normal.

    kenji Pookes: yes, normal

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and yes..I think there are norms that have grown up in our group over time.

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: disagreement is allowed, vehement disagreement.

    kenji Pookes: But the lack of capacity to see each other's faces and take queues from that makes it difficult to understand intent. I could say "patterns" rather than culture with a smile and you might respond very differently.

    stevenaia Michinaga: it should not be a mater of agreeing or disagreeing, it's your opinion, not a conflict with theirs unless they take it as such, not matter if your intent is to disagree or offer another perspective, disagreements lead to defensiveness

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: but the expectation is that we each come as much from our experience as we can, and try to let go of theories outside our own experience.

    kenji Pookes: I agree, Steve.

    Corvuscorva Nightfire points to Steve and says "what he said"

    kenji Pookes: What if theories are confirmed by our experiences?

    stevenaia Michinaga: then someone else's can be confirms by theory experiences too

    kenji Pookes: Sure

    kenji Pookes: That opens up discussion

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: yes!

    stevenaia Michinaga: I work in a world of no absolutes, just continuing synthesis of ideas, probably why I return :)

    kenji Pookes: Well, I'm tired. I think I will take off for tonight. Thanks for the calm conversation.

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I enjoyed talking with you.

    kenji Pookes: Well, as a social scientist, I fully understand living in a world of no absolutes.

    stevenaia Michinaga: you are welcome and please return,, leaving blood pressure at the door

    kenji Pookes: Good night. Oh, I don't get particularly pissed. Actually it's fascinating, even when it's annoying.

    Corvuscorva Nightfire grins.

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: see you soon!

    stevenaia Michinaga: :)

    stevenaia Michinaga: night Kinji

    stevenaia Michinaga: Kenji

    I stopped the log......

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