2009.06.11 13:00 - teachers students?

The Guardian for this meeting was Lia Rikugun. The comments are by Lia Rikugun.

 

Lia Rikugun: hello wol
Wol Euler: hello lia
Lia Rikugun: hehe yes come sit next to me
Wol Euler smiles.
Wol Euler: It's odd that space and Raumdynamik is so important in SL (at least to me)
Lia Rikugun: :)
Wol Euler: how are you, LIa?
Lia Rikugun: a little sick ;)
Lia Rikugun: but very good
Lia Rikugun: actually i met pema today :) in dortmund which was very nice
Wol Euler: I'm sorry to hear that you are sick.
Lia Rikugun: hello genesis
Wol Euler: oh wow, yes, he mentioned that! How was it?
Lia Rikugun: short ;)
Wol Euler: hello gen
genesis Zhangsun: HI Wol and Lia!
Lia Rikugun: we just had lunch together
Wol Euler: yes, a few hours between trains I believe?
Lia Rikugun: hello questa
Questa Blackheart: Hi Lia, Wol and Genesis.
genesis Zhangsun: Hi Questa
Wol Euler: hello Questa
Wol Euler: that's a bold new look :)
Wol Euler: and a very old t-shirt! When was that? 75? 74?
Questa Blackheart: I thought it looked quite ordinary. :-)
Lia Rikugun: he its fefonz!
Questa Blackheart: I'm old enough that I can't remember. :-)
Wol Euler: hello fefonz
Questa Blackheart: Hi Fefonz.
genesis Zhangsun: HI fefonz
Fefonz Quan: Hi everybody!
Questa Blackheart: Heyyyy.

Do we have leaders in our group? Are we all students? teachers? because someone accused this group of being church like

genesis Zhangsun: Does anyone here perceive certain people as leaders here?
genesis Zhangsun: in Play as Being
genesis Zhangsun: like a church with a preacher?
Lia Rikugun: hello mickorod
Wol Euler: hello grey mick
Questa Blackheart: Hi Mockorod
genesis Zhangsun: or teachers and students?
Mickorod Renard: hiya
Fefonz Quan: Hey Mick
genesis Zhangsun: Hi Mick
Questa Blackheart: Sorry, _Mickorod_
Fefonz Quan: more teachers, yes
Mickorod Renard: he he
genesis Zhangsun: so do you feel like a student Fefonz or a teacher? or both?
Mickorod Renard: well..I cant be bothered with being a leader anyway
Fefonz Quan: not teacher, surely :)
genesis Zhangsun: I've learned a lot from you though Fefonz
Fefonz Quan: i am glad to hear (blush...)
Fefonz Quan: surely i don't see us as pure students like in university
genesis Zhangsun: so what kind of students exactly?
genesis Zhangsun: I ask because recently
Fefonz Quan: infact you broguht that term up...
Fefonz Quan: yes, sorry
genesis Zhangsun: someone accused this group of being church like
Mickorod Renard: I will sttle with being a sponge
genesis Zhangsun: followers and leaders
sophia Placebo: greetings all
Questa Blackheart: Hi Sophia
Wol Euler: hello sophia
Lia Rikugun: hello sophia
Mickorod Renard: Hi sophia
genesis Zhangsun: Hi Sophia
Fefonz Quan: since i never was in a church that way, i wouldn't know
Fefonz Quan: hi sophia
Questa Blackheart: Church like seems to say more about the person making the accusation than the group.
Fefonz Quan: but if you can say waht' meant by 'beign church like'? (and then by 'student') that can be interesting to discuuss
Mickorod Renard: church leader should be like the good shepherd
genesis Zhangsun: he said church like in terms of sharing a common vision and purpose
genesis Zhangsun: which is broader than the way I usually think of it
Wol Euler: that is a pretty broad brush...
genesis Zhangsun: yes
Wol Euler: right

Do we share a common vision or purpose? What are our common values?

Questa Blackheart: I don't get the impression that we share a common vision or purpose. :-)
Wol Euler smiles
Mickorod Renard: a common need?
Fefonz Quan: i tihnk there is some "common" vision hovering about here, but we still try to figure it out
genesis Zhangsun: there are some common values
genesis Zhangsun: like the value on experience
genesis Zhangsun: over opinion and theory
Fefonz Quan nods
Questa Blackheart: Is that a stated value Genesis?
Mickorod Renard: opinion is sometimes based on experience
genesis Zhangsun: no just one came up with by observation, by experience ;)
Fefonz Quan: it is stated, though not formaly, by some of teh 'leaders' :)
Questa Blackheart: It seems to me that such things would have to be explicitly stated, like you must obey the ten commandments or wear a hat in church.
Fefonz Quan: no, that is too tough.
Fefonz Quan: but tendencies can be stated and followed generally
genesis Zhangsun: I would differentiate it from a rule to a norm
genesis Zhangsun: its more of a norm
genesis Zhangsun: an unwritten rule
Fefonz Quan: yes, good point
Questa Blackheart: Then, to me, that is just a group of like-minded individuals.
Fefonz Quan: with like-values, like-visions
Fefonz Quan: like-hypothesis
Questa Blackheart: We could just as well be a political party or a flower arranging club.
Fefonz Quan: (non of the above?)
Mickorod Renard: I think that some desire to be part of a group that is in order,,wud be a good start rather than chaos
genesis Zhangsun: so you disagree that the norm exists?
Fefonz Quan: i don't think we could Questa
Questa Blackheart: I just don't see that what is being describe is any more church like than a number of other things.
Fefonz Quan: well, if we all collected stamps, that wouldn't say anything about common values
Questa Blackheart: Maybe, but if we were a political party it would.
Questa Blackheart: Or a charitable organisation.
Fefonz Quan: yes, in fact the church is a political party in a way, so i think this is the wrong example
Mickorod Renard: collecting stamps would evolve into some sort of common value
Mickorod Renard: through exchange
Questa Blackheart: Maybe on a more mundane level.

there is a norm in operation in this group, a common hypothesis & practice

genesis Zhangsun: so church comparison aside...
genesis Zhangsun: do we agree that there is some sort of norm in operation in this group
genesis Zhangsun: regarding the things I mentioned?
Fefonz Quan: i agree
Questa Blackheart: Possibly. :-)
Mickorod Renard: I didnt catch what hadbeen mentioned
Fefonz Quan: and there is also some common hypothesis & practice
Wol Euler: yes, there is. Though it is perhaps more in the tone of voice than in the words that are used
genesis Zhangsun: [13:19] genesis Zhangsun: there are some common values [13:19] genesis Zhangsun: like the value on experience [13:19] genesis Zhangsun: over opinion and theory]
Mickorod Renard: but wud guess..yes

our values: listening rather than speaking

Wol Euler: we have a culture of listening rather than speaking, of disagreeing without contradicting
Questa Blackheart: True.
genesis Zhangsun: or disagreeing without dismissing
Wol Euler: which could be summed up as Storm wrote in his first Scribe piece, as having respect for each others' opinions even when our own differ
Fefonz Quan nods
Mickorod Renard: some respect,born out of common need to be part of the group
Fefonz Quan: and we have rules like not speaking for 90 sec
Wol Euler: right :)
Fefonz Quan: which brings me again to the practice, which i believe is one of the main essences common hear
Fefonz Quan: here
genesis Zhangsun: it is just interesting to note what kind people immediately get the "norm" in operation and gel with the group and which ones just don't
Fefonz Quan: btw - i don't feel intimidated by the 'like a church' accusation
Fefonz Quan: i have been in some places in my life that outsiders could call 'cult', but they did me a lot of good
Mickorod Renard: I sort of saw some of this after reading lots of logs and scribe jottings
Fefonz Quan: so those are boxes people put you in, in order not to look and think for themselve
Wol Euler nods
Fefonz Quan: some of what Mick?
Mickorod Renard: there is a sense that most fit in nicely
genesis Zhangsun: I really think PaB is beyond definition
genesis Zhangsun: yes that was my point to the person
genesis Zhangsun: and to get it would take some time observing the group, a real anthropological study ;)
Mickorod Renard: well,,i had to do alot of reading the chat logs
genesis Zhangsun: where you listen and don't make conclusions for some time
genesis Zhangsun: the person of which I am speaking felt excluded from the group
genesis Zhangsun: and felt this was a "closed group"
Fefonz Quan: that can happen.
sophia Placebo: hello ara
Wol Euler: hello ara
Fefonz Quan: hi ara
Lia Rikugun: hello arabella
genesis Zhangsun: hello ara
arabella Ella: hiya everyone
sophia Placebo: one cant satefy all human kind
Questa Blackheart: Hi arabella

"to be open,,one has to feel not intimidated"

Mickorod Renard: from my experience here,,,everyone has made me feel very comfortable,,and free to be open...with perhaps an odd exception
Fefonz Quan: it is always hard to get into a group where people know each other for some time, no matter the values and format of the group
Questa Blackheart: My understanding is that this group is open to everyone but people might regard it as closed because the general opinion of the group is not their own.
Fefonz Quan: more general approach i would say
Questa Blackheart: Sure.
Mickorod Renard: to be open,,one has to feel not intimidated
sophia Placebo: what general opinion you mean questa?if i may ask
Fefonz Quan: maybe it is a good thing that not anyone fits in
Fefonz Quan: it might hint that we do have a stand :)
Questa Blackheart: I don't really know. :-)
sophia Placebo: :))
Mickorod Renard: we are all diferent,,but strangely have not created a chaos
Questa Blackheart: It's down to individual perceptions, if someone feels that the rest of the group is against them.
Wol Euler: because our differences can be subsumed in our desire to pursue something common?
Fefonz Quan: i think so Wol
Fefonz Quan still wonders sometimes if this something common is not imaginary
arabella Ella: would you not say some people tend to have some sort of ... not sure of right word ... persecution complex ... for good or bad?
Fefonz Quan: but yet worth pursuing

Questa Blackheart: There is a difference between having an opinion and expecting everyone to agree with you.
Wol Euler: as long as we all imagine it together, fef, it is as real as anything else :)
Questa Blackheart: Indeed Arabella
Fefonz Quan: sounds like we share the same pills Wol ;-)
Wol Euler: :)
genesis Zhangsun: some people I think are more interested in conquering their experience than understanding it
Lia Rikugun: I am sorry but i am not sure if i undertsand what you are saying genesis
Lia Rikugun: conquering their experience
genesis Zhangsun: yes they want to define their experience, categorize it before they even really understand what it is is
Lia Rikugun: ok
Fefonz Quan: understanding, or the urge to understand can detach one from teh experience too
Wol Euler nods
Wol Euler: it can be an attachment, a very seductive one.
Wol Euler: because it is "of course" a good thing.

fefonz's "ping" joke ;)

Fefonz Quan: oops, where is Gen?
Wol Euler: ping!
Fefonz Quan: (remind me of a joke: "ping pong", "--> "Pong is not responding")
Questa Blackheart: Techie joke. :-)
Wol Euler: ah yes, old unix hackers never die.
Wol Euler: they just start dropping bits
Lia Rikugun: oh now i get it
Lia Rikugun: :)
Fefonz Quan: haha, so i spotted two more in the geek trap :)
Wol Euler: wb gen
Fefonz Quan: Hi Gen
Lia Rikugun: welcome back genesis!
sophia Placebo: *:::* WELCOME BACK *:::*
Questa Blackheart: WB Gen
arabella Ella: wb gen
Lia Rikugun: wow how nice!
arabella Ella: cool
arabella Ella: who was that? sophia you?
sophia Placebo: yes :))
Fefonz Quan: we just blah blahed off topic till you came back Gen
Questa Blackheart: Got to go. Sorry.
Lia Rikugun: byebye questa
Wol Euler: bye questa, take care.
genesis Zhangsun: thanks!
Questa Blackheart: Bye all.
Fefonz Quan: Bye Questa
arabella Ella: bye questa
genesis Zhangsun: sorry bad connection
sophia Placebo: bye questa
Mickorod Renard: bye questa
Wol Euler: (I love watching the way Gen's hair settles in slow motion)

we are explorers... :)

genesis Zhangsun: did you get the part when I said I think the common thing that connects us is our willingness to explore our identities
sophia Placebo: no
Fefonz Quan: nope
Mickorod Renard: no
Fefonz Quan: and i agree
Wol Euler: yes, agreed
Lia Rikugun: me too ;)
Fefonz Quan: we are explorers :)
genesis Zhangsun: ah okay yes I realized that I was sort of talking in the negative as in..
genesis Zhangsun: yes nevermind WE are explorers to say it in the positive!
Wol Euler: "just say yes", to coin a phrase
Mickorod Renard: yes,,I like that,,and as said before,,as explorers we will make wrong turns
genesis Zhangsun: or "why not, have to try out everything at least once"
Mickorod Renard: mmmmmmm?
genesis Zhangsun: I have to go
genesis Zhangsun: but thanks everyone
genesis Zhangsun: bye
arabella Ella: bye gen
Lia Rikugun: byebye genesis
sophia Placebo: bye gen
Wol Euler: bye gen, take care.
Mickorod Renard: bye gen
Lia Rikugun: i think i will leave too, have to go to bed early today
sophia Placebo: bye lia
Fefonz Quan: bye Gen
Lia Rikugun: so you all take care!
Wol Euler: bye lia, gute besserung.
Mickorod Renard: nite lia
arabella Ella: bye lia
Fefonz Quan: bye Lia, good to see you
Lia Rikugun: danke!:)
arabella Ella: guten nacht
arabella Ella: schlaf gut

I had to leave at this time and will not try to comment the following chat.

Fefonz Quan: It is Stim's workshop soon, isn't it?
arabella Ella: yes
arabella Ella: may i say something following what was said pls?
Wol Euler: of course.
Fefonz Quan: please do
arabella Ella: i think we have a couple of excellent role models here who when present help us all a great deal to stay on track and from whom we all have learnt so much
arabella Ella: and also ... it sometimes takes time for people to get used to the open mentality and flexibility and experiential style of this group
arabella Ella: and one last thing if i may
arabella Ella: i think this group may benefit ... a suggestion ... if we were to discuss whether the chat logs should remain public or should go private
arabella Ella: as i feel that with them being public some of us may not always be as open as we wish to be
Wol Euler: generally private, you mean? subscription-only?
Wol Euler: (or some such thing)
Mickorod Renard: perhaps
Fefonz Quan: interesting idea.
arabella Ella: ok now i can respond again :)
arabella Ella: speaking for myself
arabella Ella: there have been times when i wish to be more open as i feel i have got to know you all well and trust you all
arabella Ella: but because of the chat logs being public ... i hesitate
arabella Ella: not sure if others here get same feeling
Mickorod Renard: well, I am having second doubts about being open now
Wol Euler: there are things I have held back, yes.
arabella Ella: so perhaps Wol and Fef
Fefonz Quan: i am not sure Ara, there are ~60 guardians, not all of them i know, so in a way it is quite public
arabella Ella: if you are part of the committee
Wol Euler: I might make a counter-proposal: that it is possible and permissible to turn the recorder off.
arabella Ella: perhaps it is something you could suggest if you think it is worth mentioning?
arabella Ella: yes turning the recorder off is another option
Fefonz Quan: though i feel being open was beneficial for me at times
Mickorod Renard: that is true,,or even request the chat is removed,,the personal bits
arabella Ella: yes Fef ... 60 guardians ... most of us tho come here in the same time zone
arabella Ella: i mean i am generally here at this time and rarely at other times so i know the people who attend this time slot
Wol Euler: the things I have suppressed were often related to absent fellow guardians, so a password access type of system would not solve it for me.
Fefonz Quan: on of the advantage of the chatlog is that they are so large and many, one should spent a LOT of time to find teh juicy bits
Mickorod Renard: ok,,I am off to kira
Wol Euler: but I'll make the suggestion, Ara.
Wol Euler: bye mick