2009.06.11 13:00 - teachers students?

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Lia Rikugun. The comments are by Lia Rikugun.


    Lia Rikugun: hello wol
    Wol Euler: hello lia
    Lia Rikugun: hehe yes come sit next to me
    Wol Euler smiles.
    Wol Euler: It's odd that space and Raumdynamik is so important in SL (at least to me)
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Wol Euler: how are you, LIa?
    Lia Rikugun: a little sick ;)
    Lia Rikugun: but very good
    Lia Rikugun: actually i met pema today :) in dortmund which was very nice
    Wol Euler: I'm sorry to hear that you are sick.
    Lia Rikugun: hello genesis
    Wol Euler: oh wow, yes, he mentioned that! How was it?
    Lia Rikugun: short ;)
    Wol Euler: hello gen
    genesis Zhangsun: HI Wol and Lia!
    Lia Rikugun: we just had lunch together
    Wol Euler: yes, a few hours between trains I believe?
    Lia Rikugun: hello questa
    Questa Blackheart: Hi Lia, Wol and Genesis.
    genesis Zhangsun: Hi Questa
    Wol Euler: hello Questa
    Wol Euler: that's a bold new look :)
    Wol Euler: and a very old t-shirt! When was that? 75? 74?
    Questa Blackheart: I thought it looked quite ordinary. :-)
    Lia Rikugun: he its fefonz!
    Questa Blackheart: I'm old enough that I can't remember. :-)
    Wol Euler: hello fefonz
    Questa Blackheart: Hi Fefonz.
    genesis Zhangsun: HI fefonz
    Fefonz Quan: Hi everybody!
    Questa Blackheart: Heyyyy.

    Do we have leaders in our group? Are we all students? teachers? because someone accused this group of being church like

    genesis Zhangsun: Does anyone here perceive certain people as leaders here?
    genesis Zhangsun: in Play as Being
    genesis Zhangsun: like a church with a preacher?
    Lia Rikugun: hello mickorod
    Wol Euler: hello grey mick
    Questa Blackheart: Hi Mockorod
    genesis Zhangsun: or teachers and students?
    Mickorod Renard: hiya
    Fefonz Quan: Hey Mick
    genesis Zhangsun: Hi Mick
    Questa Blackheart: Sorry, _Mickorod_
    Fefonz Quan: more teachers, yes
    Mickorod Renard: he he
    genesis Zhangsun: so do you feel like a student Fefonz or a teacher? or both?
    Mickorod Renard: well..I cant be bothered with being a leader anyway
    Fefonz Quan: not teacher, surely :)
    genesis Zhangsun: I've learned a lot from you though Fefonz
    Fefonz Quan: i am glad to hear (blush...)
    Fefonz Quan: surely i don't see us as pure students like in university
    genesis Zhangsun: so what kind of students exactly?
    genesis Zhangsun: I ask because recently
    Fefonz Quan: infact you broguht that term up...
    Fefonz Quan: yes, sorry
    genesis Zhangsun: someone accused this group of being church like
    Mickorod Renard: I will sttle with being a sponge
    genesis Zhangsun: followers and leaders
    sophia Placebo: greetings all
    Questa Blackheart: Hi Sophia
    Wol Euler: hello sophia
    Lia Rikugun: hello sophia
    Mickorod Renard: Hi sophia
    genesis Zhangsun: Hi Sophia
    Fefonz Quan: since i never was in a church that way, i wouldn't know
    Fefonz Quan: hi sophia
    Questa Blackheart: Church like seems to say more about the person making the accusation than the group.
    Fefonz Quan: but if you can say waht' meant by 'beign church like'? (and then by 'student') that can be interesting to discuuss
    Mickorod Renard: church leader should be like the good shepherd
    genesis Zhangsun: he said church like in terms of sharing a common vision and purpose
    genesis Zhangsun: which is broader than the way I usually think of it
    Wol Euler: that is a pretty broad brush...
    genesis Zhangsun: yes
    Wol Euler: right

    Do we share a common vision or purpose? What are our common values?

    Questa Blackheart: I don't get the impression that we share a common vision or purpose. :-)
    Wol Euler smiles
    Mickorod Renard: a common need?
    Fefonz Quan: i tihnk there is some "common" vision hovering about here, but we still try to figure it out
    genesis Zhangsun: there are some common values
    genesis Zhangsun: like the value on experience
    genesis Zhangsun: over opinion and theory
    Fefonz Quan nods
    Questa Blackheart: Is that a stated value Genesis?
    Mickorod Renard: opinion is sometimes based on experience
    genesis Zhangsun: no just one came up with by observation, by experience ;)
    Fefonz Quan: it is stated, though not formaly, by some of teh 'leaders' :)
    Questa Blackheart: It seems to me that such things would have to be explicitly stated, like you must obey the ten commandments or wear a hat in church.
    Fefonz Quan: no, that is too tough.
    Fefonz Quan: but tendencies can be stated and followed generally
    genesis Zhangsun: I would differentiate it from a rule to a norm
    genesis Zhangsun: its more of a norm
    genesis Zhangsun: an unwritten rule
    Fefonz Quan: yes, good point
    Questa Blackheart: Then, to me, that is just a group of like-minded individuals.
    Fefonz Quan: with like-values, like-visions
    Fefonz Quan: like-hypothesis
    Questa Blackheart: We could just as well be a political party or a flower arranging club.
    Fefonz Quan: (non of the above?)
    Mickorod Renard: I think that some desire to be part of a group that is in order,,wud be a good start rather than chaos
    genesis Zhangsun: so you disagree that the norm exists?
    Fefonz Quan: i don't think we could Questa
    Questa Blackheart: I just don't see that what is being describe is any more church like than a number of other things.
    Fefonz Quan: well, if we all collected stamps, that wouldn't say anything about common values
    Questa Blackheart: Maybe, but if we were a political party it would.
    Questa Blackheart: Or a charitable organisation.
    Fefonz Quan: yes, in fact the church is a political party in a way, so i think this is the wrong example
    Mickorod Renard: collecting stamps would evolve into some sort of common value
    Mickorod Renard: through exchange
    Questa Blackheart: Maybe on a more mundane level.

    there is a norm in operation in this group, a common hypothesis & practice

    genesis Zhangsun: so church comparison aside...
    genesis Zhangsun: do we agree that there is some sort of norm in operation in this group
    genesis Zhangsun: regarding the things I mentioned?
    Fefonz Quan: i agree
    Questa Blackheart: Possibly. :-)
    Mickorod Renard: I didnt catch what hadbeen mentioned
    Fefonz Quan: and there is also some common hypothesis & practice
    Wol Euler: yes, there is. Though it is perhaps more in the tone of voice than in the words that are used
    genesis Zhangsun: [13:19] genesis Zhangsun: there are some common values [13:19] genesis Zhangsun: like the value on experience [13:19] genesis Zhangsun: over opinion and theory]
    Mickorod Renard: but wud guess..yes

    our values: listening rather than speaking

    Wol Euler: we have a culture of listening rather than speaking, of disagreeing without contradicting
    Questa Blackheart: True.
    genesis Zhangsun: or disagreeing without dismissing
    Wol Euler: which could be summed up as Storm wrote in his first Scribe piece, as having respect for each others' opinions even when our own differ
    Fefonz Quan nods
    Mickorod Renard: some respect,born out of common need to be part of the group
    Fefonz Quan: and we have rules like not speaking for 90 sec
    Wol Euler: right :)
    Fefonz Quan: which brings me again to the practice, which i believe is one of the main essences common hear
    Fefonz Quan: here
    genesis Zhangsun: it is just interesting to note what kind people immediately get the "norm" in operation and gel with the group and which ones just don't
    Fefonz Quan: btw - i don't feel intimidated by the 'like a church' accusation
    Fefonz Quan: i have been in some places in my life that outsiders could call 'cult', but they did me a lot of good
    Mickorod Renard: I sort of saw some of this after reading lots of logs and scribe jottings
    Fefonz Quan: so those are boxes people put you in, in order not to look and think for themselve
    Wol Euler nods
    Fefonz Quan: some of what Mick?
    Mickorod Renard: there is a sense that most fit in nicely
    genesis Zhangsun: I really think PaB is beyond definition
    genesis Zhangsun: yes that was my point to the person
    genesis Zhangsun: and to get it would take some time observing the group, a real anthropological study ;)
    Mickorod Renard: well,,i had to do alot of reading the chat logs
    genesis Zhangsun: where you listen and don't make conclusions for some time
    genesis Zhangsun: the person of which I am speaking felt excluded from the group
    genesis Zhangsun: and felt this was a "closed group"
    Fefonz Quan: that can happen.
    sophia Placebo: hello ara
    Wol Euler: hello ara
    Fefonz Quan: hi ara
    Lia Rikugun: hello arabella
    genesis Zhangsun: hello ara
    arabella Ella: hiya everyone
    sophia Placebo: one cant satefy all human kind
    Questa Blackheart: Hi arabella

    "to be open,,one has to feel not intimidated"

    Mickorod Renard: from my experience here,,,everyone has made me feel very comfortable,,and free to be open...with perhaps an odd exception
    Fefonz Quan: it is always hard to get into a group where people know each other for some time, no matter the values and format of the group
    Questa Blackheart: My understanding is that this group is open to everyone but people might regard it as closed because the general opinion of the group is not their own.
    Fefonz Quan: more general approach i would say
    Questa Blackheart: Sure.
    Mickorod Renard: to be open,,one has to feel not intimidated
    sophia Placebo: what general opinion you mean questa?if i may ask
    Fefonz Quan: maybe it is a good thing that not anyone fits in
    Fefonz Quan: it might hint that we do have a stand :)
    Questa Blackheart: I don't really know. :-)
    sophia Placebo: :))
    Mickorod Renard: we are all diferent,,but strangely have not created a chaos
    Questa Blackheart: It's down to individual perceptions, if someone feels that the rest of the group is against them.
    Wol Euler: because our differences can be subsumed in our desire to pursue something common?
    Fefonz Quan: i think so Wol
    Fefonz Quan still wonders sometimes if this something common is not imaginary
    arabella Ella: would you not say some people tend to have some sort of ... not sure of right word ... persecution complex ... for good or bad?
    Fefonz Quan: but yet worth pursuing

    Questa Blackheart: There is a difference between having an opinion and expecting everyone to agree with you.
    Wol Euler: as long as we all imagine it together, fef, it is as real as anything else :)
    Questa Blackheart: Indeed Arabella
    Fefonz Quan: sounds like we share the same pills Wol ;-)
    Wol Euler: :)
    genesis Zhangsun: some people I think are more interested in conquering their experience than understanding it
    Lia Rikugun: I am sorry but i am not sure if i undertsand what you are saying genesis
    Lia Rikugun: conquering their experience
    genesis Zhangsun: yes they want to define their experience, categorize it before they even really understand what it is is
    Lia Rikugun: ok
    Fefonz Quan: understanding, or the urge to understand can detach one from teh experience too
    Wol Euler nods
    Wol Euler: it can be an attachment, a very seductive one.
    Wol Euler: because it is "of course" a good thing.

    fefonz's "ping" joke ;)

    Fefonz Quan: oops, where is Gen?
    Wol Euler: ping!
    Fefonz Quan: (remind me of a joke: "ping pong", "--> "Pong is not responding")
    Questa Blackheart: Techie joke. :-)
    Wol Euler: ah yes, old unix hackers never die.
    Wol Euler: they just start dropping bits
    Lia Rikugun: oh now i get it
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Fefonz Quan: haha, so i spotted two more in the geek trap :)
    Wol Euler: wb gen
    Fefonz Quan: Hi Gen
    Lia Rikugun: welcome back genesis!
    sophia Placebo: *:::* WELCOME BACK *:::*
    Questa Blackheart: WB Gen
    arabella Ella: wb gen
    Lia Rikugun: wow how nice!
    arabella Ella: cool
    arabella Ella: who was that? sophia you?
    sophia Placebo: yes :))
    Fefonz Quan: we just blah blahed off topic till you came back Gen
    Questa Blackheart: Got to go. Sorry.
    Lia Rikugun: byebye questa
    Wol Euler: bye questa, take care.
    genesis Zhangsun: thanks!
    Questa Blackheart: Bye all.
    Fefonz Quan: Bye Questa
    arabella Ella: bye questa
    genesis Zhangsun: sorry bad connection
    sophia Placebo: bye questa
    Mickorod Renard: bye questa
    Wol Euler: (I love watching the way Gen's hair settles in slow motion)

    we are explorers... :)

    genesis Zhangsun: did you get the part when I said I think the common thing that connects us is our willingness to explore our identities
    sophia Placebo: no
    Fefonz Quan: nope
    Mickorod Renard: no
    Fefonz Quan: and i agree
    Wol Euler: yes, agreed
    Lia Rikugun: me too ;)
    Fefonz Quan: we are explorers :)
    genesis Zhangsun: ah okay yes I realized that I was sort of talking in the negative as in..
    genesis Zhangsun: yes nevermind WE are explorers to say it in the positive!
    Wol Euler: "just say yes", to coin a phrase
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,I like that,,and as said before,,as explorers we will make wrong turns
    genesis Zhangsun: or "why not, have to try out everything at least once"
    Mickorod Renard: mmmmmmm?
    genesis Zhangsun: I have to go
    genesis Zhangsun: but thanks everyone
    genesis Zhangsun: bye
    arabella Ella: bye gen
    Lia Rikugun: byebye genesis
    sophia Placebo: bye gen
    Wol Euler: bye gen, take care.
    Mickorod Renard: bye gen
    Lia Rikugun: i think i will leave too, have to go to bed early today
    sophia Placebo: bye lia
    Fefonz Quan: bye Gen
    Lia Rikugun: so you all take care!
    Wol Euler: bye lia, gute besserung.
    Mickorod Renard: nite lia
    arabella Ella: bye lia
    Fefonz Quan: bye Lia, good to see you
    Lia Rikugun: danke!:)
    arabella Ella: guten nacht
    arabella Ella: schlaf gut

    I had to leave at this time and will not try to comment the following chat.

    Fefonz Quan: It is Stim's workshop soon, isn't it?
    arabella Ella: yes
    arabella Ella: may i say something following what was said pls?
    Wol Euler: of course.
    Fefonz Quan: please do
    arabella Ella: i think we have a couple of excellent role models here who when present help us all a great deal to stay on track and from whom we all have learnt so much
    arabella Ella: and also ... it sometimes takes time for people to get used to the open mentality and flexibility and experiential style of this group
    arabella Ella: and one last thing if i may
    arabella Ella: i think this group may benefit ... a suggestion ... if we were to discuss whether the chat logs should remain public or should go private
    arabella Ella: as i feel that with them being public some of us may not always be as open as we wish to be
    Wol Euler: generally private, you mean? subscription-only?
    Wol Euler: (or some such thing)
    Mickorod Renard: perhaps
    Fefonz Quan: interesting idea.
    arabella Ella: ok now i can respond again :)
    arabella Ella: speaking for myself
    arabella Ella: there have been times when i wish to be more open as i feel i have got to know you all well and trust you all
    arabella Ella: but because of the chat logs being public ... i hesitate
    arabella Ella: not sure if others here get same feeling
    Mickorod Renard: well, I am having second doubts about being open now
    Wol Euler: there are things I have held back, yes.
    arabella Ella: so perhaps Wol and Fef
    Fefonz Quan: i am not sure Ara, there are ~60 guardians, not all of them i know, so in a way it is quite public
    arabella Ella: if you are part of the committee
    Wol Euler: I might make a counter-proposal: that it is possible and permissible to turn the recorder off.
    arabella Ella: perhaps it is something you could suggest if you think it is worth mentioning?
    arabella Ella: yes turning the recorder off is another option
    Fefonz Quan: though i feel being open was beneficial for me at times
    Mickorod Renard: that is true,,or even request the chat is removed,,the personal bits
    arabella Ella: yes Fef ... 60 guardians ... most of us tho come here in the same time zone
    arabella Ella: i mean i am generally here at this time and rarely at other times so i know the people who attend this time slot
    Wol Euler: the things I have suppressed were often related to absent fellow guardians, so a password access type of system would not solve it for me.
    Fefonz Quan: on of the advantage of the chatlog is that they are so large and many, one should spent a LOT of time to find teh juicy bits
    Mickorod Renard: ok,,I am off to kira
    Wol Euler: but I'll make the suggestion, Ara.
    Wol Euler: bye mick
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