2009.06.21 13:00 - Interconnectedness

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Maxine Walden. The comments are by Maxine Walden.

    Another wonderful Sunday 1300 discussion with close to a dozen of the PaB group and a newcomer who fit in beautifully.  In fact, Sunfire asked a question which got us all focussed on the issue of interconnectedness and the concerns which interfere with its full recognition.  Some, but probably not enough recognition to Adams for the splendid presentation on two mosques which occurred just the hour before this meeting.  A lovely discussion which merits at least one read through by us all.


    Maxine Walden: hi, Wol
    Wol Euler: hello maxine
    Maxine Walden: 'cunning planner'? (referring to her bubble title)
    Wol Euler grins. A party-organizing group :)
    Wol Euler: we are conspiring and conniving behind the backs of a wedding pair
    Maxine Walden: ah, I see:)
    Maxine Walden: oh, sounds rather intriguing and fun
    Wol Euler: :)
    Wol Euler: as so often in SL and RL, it requires that somebody do an awful lot of pushing.
    Wol Euler: so far hat person has been (a) mostly missing, but (b) myself
    Maxine Walden: oh, yes....
    Maxine Walden: ah, more than just intriguing and fun then...also a bit of entropy to overcome perhaps
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Wol Euler: yes, inertia is vastly unerestimated as a cultural force :)
    Maxine Walden: that was the word I was reaching for -- inertia
    Maxine Walden: thanks
    Maxine Walden: hi, Tarmel
    Wol Euler: yw
    Wol Euler: hello tarmel
    Tarmel Udimo: Hi Maxine & Wol:)
    Maxine Walden: and seeing the balloons of Scath, Eliza and Wester
    Maxine Walden: hi, Eliza
    Wol Euler: hello scath, wester, eliza
    Maxine Walden: hi Scath, Wester
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi everyone :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Maxine, Wol, Tarmel, eliza
    Tarmel Udimo: hi Scath, Eliza, Wester:0
    Tarmel Udimo: :)
    Wol Euler: aloha pila
    Maxine Walden: hi Pila
    Tarmel Udimo: Hey Pila
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Pila
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Wester
    Maxine Walden: meditative today?
    Pila Mulligan: om
    Eliza Madrigal: soaking in the art history workshop a bit...visited two mosques today :)
    Wol Euler nods
    Maxine Walden: oh, wished I could have gone. Bet it was really interesting...
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, I missed it too:(
    Wol Euler: I can give you the notecard, adn the bits of Adams' talk that he repeated in text chat
    Tarmel Udimo: nods too early for me
    Maxine Walden: oh, that would be great, wol
    Wol Euler: sure, just a mo.
    Pila Mulligan: me too please Wol :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: ty Wol
    Wol Euler: despite the date, that has today's landmarks :)
    Wol Euler: textchat coming up ...
    Maxine Walden: thanks, Wol
    Tarmel Udimo: and me:)
    Wol Euler: just a mo! anyone else?
    Pila Mulligan: yes please
    Pila Mulligan: you propbably have an entire audience awaiting one
    Pila Mulligan: each
    Wol Euler: :)
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: thanks Wol:)
    Pila Mulligan: thanks Wol :)
    Wol Euler: yw
    Maxine Walden: thanks again, wol
    Wol Euler: hello sunfire
    Pila Mulligan: hello Sunfire
    Sunfire Langer: hi, everyone
    Maxine Walden: hi, sunfire
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Sunfire
    Maxine Walden: and here comes Adams
    Wol Euler: I see you know Kira. have you been here before?
    Pila Mulligan: greeting Mullah Dubrovna
    Adams Dubrovna: Hi everyone :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Adams
    Wester Kiranov: hi adams
    Wol Euler: hello adams
    Maxine Walden: Sunfire, wondering if you have been to these meetings, where we talk about a lot of things, including the nature of reality. And we also post the chatlog. Would you mind having your comments included?
    Sunfire Langer: this is my first visit, I have attended other discussion groups, wanted to try a new one. No, I don't mind being recorded at all
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Wol Euler: ty
    Adams Dubrovna: welcome Sunfire :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Wol Euler: take a seat, few of us bite :)
    Pila Mulligan: Wol was just distributing material from the earlier tour
    Eliza Madrigal: haha Wol
    Eliza Madrigal: It is interesting to me that one can just stand in a setting and learn quite a lot...that the setting itself seems to ask questions
    Eliza Madrigal: and then thoughtful teaching has context..comes alive
    Wester Kiranov: which applies to both mosques and pavillions
    Eliza Madrigal nods :)
    Maxine Walden: yes indeed.
    Sunfire Langer: almost like the space includes both the setting and all the people there is as one entity
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, really nice thought
    Pila Mulligan: interconnectedness :)
    Wester Kiranov: good, good, good vibrations :-)
    Wol Euler: :)
    Sunfire Langer: I have a question
    Wol Euler: fire away
    Sunfire Langer: I've introduced interconnectedness as an idea in a few topics, and its usually met with resistance, why would people resist it?
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Wol Euler: because it challenges their world view?
    Maxine Walden: agree, and it softens the edges of difference which many of us like to maintain
    Wol Euler: there's a lot of territorial defence that happens when disciplines abutt. Interconnectedness threatens that
    Pila Mulligan: some actually fragile world views can seem very solid
    Maxine Walden: thoughts about the protests in Iran come to mind
    Pila Mulligan: but Sunfire, let's follow the topic further, would you like ot say more
    Wol Euler: please do
    Sunfire Langer: it seems to me that people cling to their anger or indignation, thinking it to be their individuality, or their story. But I've found that anger retained for a long time leads to blocking your own energy, and also blocking interconnectivity...
    Wol Euler nods
    Pila Mulligan: true
    Maxine Walden: It Can feel so importat to maintain an 'enemy' or 'wrongness' as part of the other
    Maxine Walden: and thus keep the 'rightness' as part of the self
    Eliza Madrigal: Certainly. We are possesive of our 'independence' ... the idea that we can know things...
    Wol Euler: hello eos
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi eos :)
    Wester Kiranov: hi eos
    Pila Mulligan: hi Eos
    Adams Dubrovna: hello Eos :)
    Maxine Walden: hi eos
    Tarmel Udimo: Hi Eos
    Eos Amaterasu: hi all :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: and Maxine, especially that word 'rightness' seems to apply
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Eos
    Wol Euler: there may be an element of self-protection too. If everything is interconnected, then I had better stop squandering resources and adding to mountains of garbage - and there goes my lifestyle.
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Scath
    Maxine Walden: yes, 'right' vs 'wrong' can seem so important, especially when one feels vulnerable or uncertain about oneself
    Tarmel Udimo: Read a very interesting article yesterday adbout Intergral Life Practice and interconnectivity
    Maxine Walden: oh?
    Wol Euler: mmm?
    Tarmel Udimo: Four Authors including Terry Patten, its based a round a concept put forth by Ken Wilber
    Wester Kiranov: I was wondering if this was wilber...
    Tarmel Udimo: nods
    Tarmel Udimo: talks aboutthree ways to interconnect with spirit (Being)
    Tarmel Udimo: not quite the topic but close:)
    Wester Kiranov: Only three?
    Wol Euler whispers: http://www.integral-life-practice.com/
    Sunfire Langer: its an oft neglected part of self, the spirit
    Tarmel Udimo: hehehe
    Pila Mulligan: the pervasive nature of interconnectedness may be more than some modern assumptions of reality can handle -- Jung postulated the collective unconscious as a start, but even that may be too much for the existing culutre -- but science is getting some hints, such as theories of quantum entanglement and mirror neurons
    Sunfire Langer likes quantum entaglement
    Pila Mulligan like mirror neurons, also
    Wester Kiranov: mirror neurons are cool ;-)
    Tarmel Udimo: ty Wol yes that is the book (only read the article about the book)
    Pila Mulligan: Tarmel, the interconnectedness is probably there already, and the three practices may be just opening the shutters
    Tarmel Udimo: well it talked about three kind of templates
    Tarmel Udimo: the first is closer to what we do in PaB where there is no seperation with Being/Spirt - one is
    Eos Amaterasu thinks a a pattern language for appreciating the presence of appearance
    Tarmel Udimo: and one can appreciate the greatness
    Maxine Walden: 15 min bell info. Gives info about this aspect of our study
    Tarmel Udimo: nodsthe third is nature worship when we are in awe
    Tarmel Udimo: and the second is what we seemed to have lost touch with was an intimate relationship with spirit
    Maxine Walden: sorry, was writing an Im to sunfire...
    Tarmel Udimo: if one no longer holds God/Being Spirit in an abstract way but interconnects and has an ongoing personal dialogue
    Tarmel Udimo: they perhaps seems like all the same but found the discription interesting
    Wester Kiranov: Do these three map onto I/you/it (trying to make wilberian sense of this)?
    Tarmel Udimo: not sure.... I was interested in the second approach as this is the one I use least:)
    Eos Amaterasu: How would you describe the practice of that second one?
    Tarmel Udimo: its the path of devotion
    Wol Euler: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Wilber#Quadrants (i/it/we)
    Eliza Madrigal: ... thinking of Wol's earlier point in that context, that it is hard to hurt anyone/anything you truly experience as being 'self'..and maybe that experience only comes through that sense of 'intimacy'/trust in what seems more 'true' ?
    Tarmel Udimo: nods
    Eos Amaterasu: I trust you/your neurons / as my neurons
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Wol Euler: good point.
    Sunfire Langer: there is no distance between one's thoughts and another's
    Wol Euler: do mirror neurons activate when you are watching somebody you dislike or distrust? Probably not :)
    Wester Kiranov: I think they do...
    Eos Amaterasu: Oh, I would think they would - that's why you feel yucky!
    Tarmel Udimo: I think they do too
    Maxine Walden: Yes, but we project onto those we do not like the parts of ourselves we do not like, a kind of negative mirror, perhaps
    Maxine Walden: and we would like to call them 'different' from me to gain distance from those unwanted aspects
    Tarmel Udimo: I am curious why we only do this n ceratin people and not others
    Tarmel Udimo: *on
    Eliza Madrigal: we often amplify what we dislike in others because they trigger our own fears?
    Sunfire Langer: us and them dynamics are always harmful
    Tarmel Udimo: yes just carrying the thought further, we project our negativity or see the mirror of it in others, why certain people and not everyone?
    Maxine Walden: and yet 'us and them' dynamics are ancient herd and tribe stuff which is really hard-wired and we seemm to reflexively return to it when we are stressed
    Tarmel Udimo: nods
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Pila Mulligan: herd-wired :)
    Eos Amaterasu: They might trigger neurons you're repressing, don't want to ackknowledge the mirror
    Eliza Madrigal: hahaha
    Sunfire Langer: perhaps we see a similarity in those people with ourselves and that is what bothers us about it, Tarmel
    Adams Dubrovna: :)
    Maxine Walden: so I find it useful to consider that I carry all that primitive tendency to the 'herd-wired!' and appreciate I have to work to overcome that at times
    Eliza Madrigal nods.. let go as able and natural... as arises
    Maxine Walden: yes, Eliza
    Maxine Walden: have to go in a minute...lovely conversation today...so many topics see 'to arise' here...
    Tarmel Udimo: and yet we all have the same negative states just in varying degrees
    Wester Kiranov: bye maxine - I will leave pretty soon too
    Maxine Walden: see you all soon, I hope.
    Adams Dubrovna: bye Maxine :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks Maxine :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye for now
    Wol Euler: bye maxine, take care.
    Scathach Rhiadra: Bye maxine, ty:)
    Tarmel Udimo: nice to see you again Maxine :)
    Pila Mulligan: bye Maxine
    Adams Dubrovna: I need to head out too. bye everyone. Nice to mmeet you Sunrise :)
    Adams Dubrovna: Sunfire
    Pila Mulligan: bye Wester, pretty soon
    Pila Mulligan: bye Adams
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Adams :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Adams
    Tarmel Udimo: bye Adams
    Wol Euler: bye adams
    Sunfire Langer: It was a pleasure Aaron
    Eos Amaterasu: bye Adams
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, and Wester...missed saying bye... thought I had a minute :)
    Tarmel Udimo: me too, thanks for the links, Wol and good chats all
    Wol Euler: bye tarmel
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Tareml
    Pila Mulligan: bye Tarmel
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Tarmel
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: Thank you everyone. Pleasure to meet you Sunrise.
    Eliza Madrigal: Sunfire...
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Bye for now Eos, Wol, Scath, Pila
    Scathach Rhiadra: I must go too, good night all, Namasté
    Wol Euler: bey eliza, bye scath
    Eos Amaterasu: Ciao Eliza, Scath
    Sunfire Langer: why did you both get it wrong in the same way, Eliza?
    Pila Mulligan: moi aussi, bye ybe
    Wol Euler: bye pila
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes odd Sunfire...maybe I just read the text alone :)
    Wol Euler: power of suggestion, maybe, sunfire?
    Eliza Madrigal: yes perhaps :)
    Pila Mulligan: see you next time Sunfire :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye for now
    Eos Amaterasu: bye Pila
    Wol Euler: (I admit I paused adn read your name before typing)
    Sunfire Langer: interesting...
    Wol Euler: some mistakes are contagious
    Sunfire Langer: as thoughts are
    Wol Euler: but I too must leave, my bed is calling :)
    Wol Euler: nice to meet you, sunfire. bye eos, take care
    Eos Amaterasu: Bye Wol..
    Eos Amaterasu: Dinner time here, ciao!
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