2009.06.22 13:00 - Detached

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Stim Morane. The comments are by Stim Morane.

    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Stim!
    Stim Morane: Hi Scathach!
    Scathach Rhiadra: How are you today?
    Stim Morane: in between ...
    Stim Morane: and you?
    Scathach Rhiadra: i'm fine, inbetween how?
    Stim Morane: Hi Gaya
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Gaya!
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Scath and Stim :)
    Stim Morane: in between everything, Scathach
    Scathach Rhiadra: ah:)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Pila :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Pila
    Pila Mulligan: hi Gaya, Scath and Stim
    Stim Morane: Hi Pila
    Gaya Ethaniel: [If you want different tag, do let me know Stim - we first thought about giving you 'Guru' heheheh]
    Scathach Rhiadra: haha, have just seen that now:))
    Stim Morane: :)
    Stim Morane: it's a good tag, thanks. But "guru" no, definitely not.
    Stim Morane: doormouse, maybe
    Gaya Ethaniel: :) gave you a choice between homework and ç„¡ anyway Stim.
    Stim Morane: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: We had a little gathering yesterday which I found really helpful.
    Stim Morane: say more, Gaya?
    Gaya Ethaniel: I was a bit puzzled about 'going' 'goer' and 'gone to' and asked others on this point. Your choice of the word was particularly interesting, rather than 'do', 'go'.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Others present suggested time element from there which was quite helpful.
    Stim Morane: it was just an example, although one drawn from the tradition
    Fefonz Quan: Hello all!
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Fefonz :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: hello Fefonz
    Stim Morane: hi Fefonz
    Pila Mulligan: hi Fefonz
    Gaya Ethaniel: So 'doer' is an equally good example then Stim?
    Stim Morane: it could be
    Stim Morane: with respect to the overall topic now being discussed in the workshop, I'm just presenting a very brief overview of some options and levels of teaching
    Stim Morane: I'm not really attempting to make them fully understandable, because as I kept saying, I don't think that's possible
    Gaya Ethaniel nods.
    Gaya Ethaniel: That's a good clarification on it then Stim thanks :)
    Stim Morane: I will remind people of this when we meet next
    Fefonz Quan: could i see the chat before i got here? seems i missed some...
    Gaya Ethaniel: yep making nc one moment Fefonz
    Fefonz Quan: thanks.
    Pila Mulligan: hi sophia
    Stim Morane: Hi sophia
    Fefonz Quan: hi Sophia
    sophia Placebo: greetings
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Sophia
    Gaya Ethaniel: But I'm still curious why you chose go instead of do Stim.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello sophia :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Stim Morane: it would probably be best to discuss this on Thursday, when the little group is present
    Fefonz Quan: maybe going have some direction in it
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes I thought the same :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: ok Stim makes sense :)
    Stim Morane: I just don't want to interfere with PaB's main focus
    Fefonz Quan: somehow i feel, at least for my practice, PaB is not so distanced from what we talked aobut i the workshop
    Fefonz Quan: for example, when i practice 'appearances', the appearances of the 'self' blend into others.
    Stim Morane: yes
    Fefonz Quan: so the notion of 'i am walking' goes to 'there is walking'
    Stim Morane: well, I'm happy that you see connections. But I'm also happy to wait until Thurs to discuss them.
    Stim Morane: :)
    Fefonz Quan: cool. so we can discuss the PaB side of those connections ;-)
    Fefonz Quan: (just kidding, )
    Stim Morane: sure
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Stim Morane: There are long-standing connections between the codependent arising teaching and other things that fit more in PaB.
    Stim Morane: But PaB as an event, a group, etc., has a very broad focus, and isn't really the right place to zero in on something like this traditional topic.
    Fefonz Quan: when practicing appearances, for example, i feel like the point ov view shrinks in a way,
    sophia Placebo: hi wol
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Wol :)
    Pila Mulligan: hi Wol
    Stim Morane: Hi Cunning planner
    Wol Euler: hello everyone, sorry I'm late
    Wol Euler: hello homework-lovers :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Wol!
    Fefonz Quan: so if in daily life, the 'center' is a huma being watching the outside world, in APA, the appearances of the human being (hands, pains, etc.) are also a part of 'outside' world, while the 'inner viewer' is now some 'point' that sees all that surrounding it
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Fefonz Quan: Hey WOl!
    Fefonz Quan: AM I MAKING ANY SENSE?
    Fefonz Quan: caps....
    Wol Euler: if not, shouting won't help :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Fefonz Quan: yesss, i guesses so
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Stim Morane: Yes, Fefonz, your point is clear.
    Fefonz Quan: but it makes me confused from two different directions:
    Fefonz Quan: one, is that i feel distances from myself, detachment feeling.
    Fefonz Quan: two, there is still some dimensionless 'me' watching all that
    Fefonz Quan: (and three: in all those appearances, surely i control some of them much more easily, making them somehow seperated form the others).
    Stim Morane: Good points. Comments, anyone?
    Stim Morane: brb
    Fefonz Quan: so no other have similar experiences? only fefonz hallucinating by himself? :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: I don't think we need to feel detached when observing ... in a way it is not possible to be detached completely in my experiences.
    Wol Euler: could you copy/paste me your remarks to IM please?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello xxxxx
    Gaya Ethaniel: Welcome to PaB, have you been here before?
    xxxxx: No
    Stim Morane: Hi xxxxx
    sophia Placebo: hehe fef , i had one , trying to go back to those feelings
    sophia Placebo: hi xxxxx
    Gaya Ethaniel: Will IM you for introduction so we don't disturb the ongoing discussion xxxxx.
    xxxxx: OK
    Fefonz Quan: was it so good Sophia?
    sophia Placebo: hmm im trying to remmber the feeling of detachment or not or if i ever appreciate them
    sophia Placebo: but yes self remain always there
    Gaya Ethaniel: Would you say the degree of feeling detached varies on when/how you practice Fefonz?
    Fefonz Quan: i don't feel the detachment is where we want to go. It tend to make me feel numb and don't care about what happens
    xxxxx: Vedanta
    Fefonz Quan: yes, sure it varies
    Gaya Ethaniel: It does for me too ... would you care to say when it is the lightest or heaviest?
    Fefonz Quan: didn't manage yet to pinpoint the exact parameters, seems unpredictable in a way.
    sophia Placebo: more attachement to self when dpressed,less when happy and clear minded
    Fefonz Quan: maybe when i am in a good mood, i feel less detached
    Wol Euler: or perhaps the detachment is less threatening?
    Wol Euler: (when in a good moood)
    Gaya Ethaniel: For me, when I'm doing introspection rather than observation is the heaviest times.
    Fefonz Quan: in a good mood there comes some empathy to all that arises,
    Fefonz Quan: hence no 'distanced' feeling
    Gaya Ethaniel: And in good mood tend to be more open 'outwardly'.
    Fefonz Quan: what do you mean by introspection Gaya?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Happens more often when sitting alone ... watching my mind yet lacking movements to put it crudely.
    Fefonz Quan: eyes closed?
    Gaya Ethaniel: I only know that I'm doing that more than seeing when I catch myself feeling detached or closed up somewhat.
    Gaya Ethaniel: No, half opened.
    Gaya Ethaniel: I don't always know in the moment, normally afterwards over time ... am I making sense?
    Fefonz Quan nods
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Gaya Ethaniel: Let me give you an example ... let's say dancing.
    Fefonz Quan: so in a way 'looking inward
    Fefonz Quan: ' rather than outward.
    Fefonz Quan: sorry, go on
    Gaya Ethaniel: Once I learn the movements, I can listen to music better ... articular so more open in that sense.
    Gaya Ethaniel: At that level, I would be watching loosely over my body, sounds etc but not controlling ...
    sophia Placebo: i guess i understand what you mean by distanced in good mood fef
    Gaya Ethaniel: I try to do that when meditating ...
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes Fefonz that probably applies to the directions you mentioned in the beginning.
    Gaya Ethaniel: [So just open ... all directions]
    Fefonz Quan: i see. have similar feeling when playing
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: When we do something we enjoy especially :)
    Fefonz Quan: enjoy, but also have enough skill not to 'control every movement'
    Gaya Ethaniel: mhm that's the rub >.<
    Gaya Ethaniel: But you know ... one doesn't have to start with Prokofiev Piano Concertos :) Start and become good at something simple and enjoy the experience.
    Wol Euler: heheheh
    Fefonz Quan: well, dust in the wind is not so hard ;-)
    Gaya Ethaniel: heheheh otherwise we will end up breaking the wrists at the beginning :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Dust in the wind?
    Fefonz Quan: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkbdP7sq0w8
    Fefonz Quan: Anice and quite simple song for guitar players
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah :)
    Wol Euler smiles and nods. It's a classic, I'm sure you know it even if you don't know the name
    Gaya Ethaniel: yeah, heard of it before :)
    Fefonz Quan: that's why i sent the link
    Gaya Ethaniel: [Stim btw xxxxx left without giving permission so need to remove her name from the log]
    Stim Morane: OK
    Gaya Ethaniel: I suspect Fefonz, now that you know when feeling detached, over the time you will be able to stop the cycle. [well I'm hoping that's the case]
    sophia Placebo: hmm
    sophia Placebo: i can distingushed 2 feelings
    sophia Placebo: distanced and detached
    Gaya Ethaniel: What has helped me is trying to meditate more during the day.
    sophia Placebo: say more gaya
    Fefonz Quan: i mostly meditate during the day, but maybe
    Gaya Ethaniel: You first sophia :)
    sophia Placebo: :) ok , distanced is the feeling btw yourself and other rthings , hmm in good mood you appreciations to things is better and distances are larger
    sophia Placebo: in bad sad mood ,everything just on your chest and aroud your neck
    Fefonz Quan: interesting, for me in good mood i feel less distanced
    sophia Placebo: but in that case you are more detached from them , they lose meaning
    Fefonz Quan might indeed confuse these two terms
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    sophia Placebo: but in good mood when you can appreiciate things they are more distanced but more attachment to them
    Gaya Ethaniel: Detached = what's the point feeling, Fefonz?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Sorry I just don't have a way with words >.<
    Fefonz Quan: yes, agreed Gaya. i thought distanced is similar ('you look distant today...')
    Gaya Ethaniel: ok so I understood you ok then :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: I was told 'there is no point' eeek
    Wol Euler excuses herself and sneaks quietly away. Bye everyone, take care.
    sophia Placebo: what i said at first being attached or detached from -self- in relation to moods is a third feeling though :)
    Stim Morane: Bye Wol
    Gaya Ethaniel: Goodnight Wol :)
    Fefonz Quan: night Wol :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Wol
    Pila Mulligan: bye Wol
    sophia Placebo: bye wol
    Gaya Ethaniel: In the past, I'd sit daily if possible, doing various things like watching mind, counting breath etc. And during the most I did was pause and look for why and what to do.
    Gaya Ethaniel: These days I try to watch more during the day even if there isn't any loud pointers to make me stop.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Anyway that's what I do these days.
    Fefonz Quan: that sounds nice, incorporating it into the flow of the day
    Gaya Ethaniel: 9 sec bell was helpful in that regards - got me to stop more frequently to begin with. These days I just pause when I 'feel like it'.
    Gaya Ethaniel: When I do this less, I feel closed up and heavy
    Fefonz Quan: me too, mostly
    sophia Placebo: mee three
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Fefonz Quan: your four
    Fefonz Quan: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: But genuinely this is something I am interested to find out more for my sake too. We can share more notes going forward :)
    sophia Placebo: :-0
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah and the View!
    Gaya Ethaniel: That helped ... to be more open during sitting.
    Gaya Ethaniel: You know the combining 3 types Stim mentioned?
    Fefonz Quan nods
    Gaya Ethaniel: Before I was doing #1 and #2 mainly.
    sophia Placebo: better be off , goodnight all and thanks for the great chat :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Took a while to figure out I need to be inclusive >.<
    Gaya Ethaniel: Good night sophia :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: good night Sophia
    Stim Morane: by sophia
    Stim Morane: bye
    Scathach Rhiadra: I must go too, good night all, thank you:)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Good night Scath :)
    Stim Morane: bye Scathach
    Stim Morane: I should go as well
    Stim Morane: Bye everyone!
    Gaya Ethaniel: Bye Stim have a good day :)
    Fefonz Quan: night scath, stim
    Fefonz Quan: i thought #1 was not for daily practice
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well I learnt that first and did that for a few years.
    Fefonz Quan: wasn't the first the regular 'focusing' practice?
    Pila Mulligan also slips away to rl -- bye Gaya and Fefonz
    Fefonz Quan: bye Pila
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes counting breath with the vie that distractions is the cause of problems.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Bye Pila
    Gaya Ethaniel: Except a few meetings/retreats, I was learning alone.
    Fefonz Quan: right.
    Gaya Ethaniel: It can be done ... I know that but takes a looong time heheheheh
    Fefonz Quan: yes, good teacher can initiate great leaps forward
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes at the same time, it's not easy to find a suitable or willing teacher.
    Gaya Ethaniel: I'm glad I found PaB and WoK workshop.
    Fefonz Quan: yes, i am glad too
    Fefonz Quan: i did found a nice group though in RL even in my small country
    Fefonz Quan: so i guess there are some meditation groups where you live too
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes tons!
    Fefonz Quan: you know what they say 'when the student is ready, the teacher will come' :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes I wasn't ready :)
    Fefonz Quan: as ready as any of us i guess :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well I should get going now too I'm afraid. It was a good discussion, thanks for your help Fefonz :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Enjoy your day/evening :)
    Fefonz Quan: good to see you gaya! good night
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