2009.06.22 13:00 - Detached

The Guardian for this meeting was Stim Morane. The comments are by Stim Morane.

Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Stim!
Stim Morane: Hi Scathach!
Scathach Rhiadra: How are you today?
Stim Morane: in between ...
Stim Morane: and you?
Scathach Rhiadra: i'm fine, inbetween how?
Stim Morane: Hi Gaya
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Gaya!
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Scath and Stim :)
Stim Morane: in between everything, Scathach
Scathach Rhiadra: ah:)
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Pila :)
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Pila
Pila Mulligan: hi Gaya, Scath and Stim
Stim Morane: Hi Pila
Gaya Ethaniel: [If you want different tag, do let me know Stim - we first thought about giving you 'Guru' heheheh]
Scathach Rhiadra: haha, have just seen that now:))
Stim Morane: :)
Stim Morane: it's a good tag, thanks. But "guru" no, definitely not.
Stim Morane: doormouse, maybe
Gaya Ethaniel: :) gave you a choice between homework and ç„¡ anyway Stim.
Stim Morane: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: We had a little gathering yesterday which I found really helpful.
Stim Morane: say more, Gaya?
Gaya Ethaniel: I was a bit puzzled about 'going' 'goer' and 'gone to' and asked others on this point. Your choice of the word was particularly interesting, rather than 'do', 'go'.
Gaya Ethaniel: Others present suggested time element from there which was quite helpful.
Stim Morane: it was just an example, although one drawn from the tradition
Fefonz Quan: Hello all!
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Fefonz :)
Scathach Rhiadra: hello Fefonz
Stim Morane: hi Fefonz
Pila Mulligan: hi Fefonz
Gaya Ethaniel: So 'doer' is an equally good example then Stim?
Stim Morane: it could be
Stim Morane: with respect to the overall topic now being discussed in the workshop, I'm just presenting a very brief overview of some options and levels of teaching
Stim Morane: I'm not really attempting to make them fully understandable, because as I kept saying, I don't think that's possible
Gaya Ethaniel nods.
Gaya Ethaniel: That's a good clarification on it then Stim thanks :)
Stim Morane: I will remind people of this when we meet next
Fefonz Quan: could i see the chat before i got here? seems i missed some...
Gaya Ethaniel: yep making nc one moment Fefonz
Fefonz Quan: thanks.
Pila Mulligan: hi sophia
Stim Morane: Hi sophia
Fefonz Quan: hi Sophia
sophia Placebo: greetings
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Sophia
Gaya Ethaniel: But I'm still curious why you chose go instead of do Stim.
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello sophia :)
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Stim Morane: it would probably be best to discuss this on Thursday, when the little group is present
Fefonz Quan: maybe going have some direction in it
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes I thought the same :)
Gaya Ethaniel: ok Stim makes sense :)
Stim Morane: I just don't want to interfere with PaB's main focus
Fefonz Quan: somehow i feel, at least for my practice, PaB is not so distanced from what we talked aobut i the workshop
Fefonz Quan: for example, when i practice 'appearances', the appearances of the 'self' blend into others.
Stim Morane: yes
Fefonz Quan: so the notion of 'i am walking' goes to 'there is walking'
Stim Morane: well, I'm happy that you see connections. But I'm also happy to wait until Thurs to discuss them.
Stim Morane: :)
Fefonz Quan: cool. so we can discuss the PaB side of those connections ;-)
Fefonz Quan: (just kidding, )
Stim Morane: sure
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Stim Morane: There are long-standing connections between the codependent arising teaching and other things that fit more in PaB.
Stim Morane: But PaB as an event, a group, etc., has a very broad focus, and isn't really the right place to zero in on something like this traditional topic.
Fefonz Quan: when practicing appearances, for example, i feel like the point ov view shrinks in a way,
sophia Placebo: hi wol
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Wol :)
Pila Mulligan: hi Wol
Stim Morane: Hi Cunning planner
Wol Euler: hello everyone, sorry I'm late
Wol Euler: hello homework-lovers :)
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Wol!
Fefonz Quan: so if in daily life, the 'center' is a huma being watching the outside world, in APA, the appearances of the human being (hands, pains, etc.) are also a part of 'outside' world, while the 'inner viewer' is now some 'point' that sees all that surrounding it
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Fefonz Quan: Hey WOl!
Fefonz Quan: AM I MAKING ANY SENSE?
Fefonz Quan: caps....
Wol Euler: if not, shouting won't help :)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Fefonz Quan: yesss, i guesses so
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Stim Morane: Yes, Fefonz, your point is clear.
Fefonz Quan: but it makes me confused from two different directions:
Fefonz Quan: one, is that i feel distances from myself, detachment feeling.
Fefonz Quan: two, there is still some dimensionless 'me' watching all that
Fefonz Quan: (and three: in all those appearances, surely i control some of them much more easily, making them somehow seperated form the others).
Stim Morane: Good points. Comments, anyone?
Stim Morane: brb
Fefonz Quan: so no other have similar experiences? only fefonz hallucinating by himself? :)
Gaya Ethaniel: I don't think we need to feel detached when observing ... in a way it is not possible to be detached completely in my experiences.
Wol Euler: could you copy/paste me your remarks to IM please?
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello xxxxx
Gaya Ethaniel: Welcome to PaB, have you been here before?
xxxxx: No
Stim Morane: Hi xxxxx
sophia Placebo: hehe fef , i had one , trying to go back to those feelings
sophia Placebo: hi xxxxx
Gaya Ethaniel: Will IM you for introduction so we don't disturb the ongoing discussion xxxxx.
xxxxx: OK
Fefonz Quan: was it so good Sophia?
sophia Placebo: hmm im trying to remmber the feeling of detachment or not or if i ever appreciate them
sophia Placebo: but yes self remain always there
Gaya Ethaniel: Would you say the degree of feeling detached varies on when/how you practice Fefonz?
Fefonz Quan: i don't feel the detachment is where we want to go. It tend to make me feel numb and don't care about what happens
xxxxx: Vedanta
Fefonz Quan: yes, sure it varies
Gaya Ethaniel: It does for me too ... would you care to say when it is the lightest or heaviest?
Fefonz Quan: didn't manage yet to pinpoint the exact parameters, seems unpredictable in a way.
sophia Placebo: more attachement to self when dpressed,less when happy and clear minded
Fefonz Quan: maybe when i am in a good mood, i feel less detached
Wol Euler: or perhaps the detachment is less threatening?
Wol Euler: (when in a good moood)
Gaya Ethaniel: For me, when I'm doing introspection rather than observation is the heaviest times.
Fefonz Quan: in a good mood there comes some empathy to all that arises,
Fefonz Quan: hence no 'distanced' feeling
Gaya Ethaniel: And in good mood tend to be more open 'outwardly'.
Fefonz Quan: what do you mean by introspection Gaya?
Gaya Ethaniel: Happens more often when sitting alone ... watching my mind yet lacking movements to put it crudely.
Fefonz Quan: eyes closed?
Gaya Ethaniel: I only know that I'm doing that more than seeing when I catch myself feeling detached or closed up somewhat.
Gaya Ethaniel: No, half opened.
Gaya Ethaniel: I don't always know in the moment, normally afterwards over time ... am I making sense?
Fefonz Quan nods
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Gaya Ethaniel: Let me give you an example ... let's say dancing.
Fefonz Quan: so in a way 'looking inward
Fefonz Quan: ' rather than outward.
Fefonz Quan: sorry, go on
Gaya Ethaniel: Once I learn the movements, I can listen to music better ... articular so more open in that sense.
Gaya Ethaniel: At that level, I would be watching loosely over my body, sounds etc but not controlling ...
sophia Placebo: i guess i understand what you mean by distanced in good mood fef
Gaya Ethaniel: I try to do that when meditating ...
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes Fefonz that probably applies to the directions you mentioned in the beginning.
Gaya Ethaniel: [So just open ... all directions]
Fefonz Quan: i see. have similar feeling when playing
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: When we do something we enjoy especially :)
Fefonz Quan: enjoy, but also have enough skill not to 'control every movement'
Gaya Ethaniel: mhm that's the rub >.<
Gaya Ethaniel: But you know ... one doesn't have to start with Prokofiev Piano Concertos :) Start and become good at something simple and enjoy the experience.
Wol Euler: heheheh
Fefonz Quan: well, dust in the wind is not so hard ;-)
Gaya Ethaniel: heheheh otherwise we will end up breaking the wrists at the beginning :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Dust in the wind?
Fefonz Quan: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkbdP7sq0w8
Fefonz Quan: Anice and quite simple song for guitar players
Gaya Ethaniel: ah :)
Wol Euler smiles and nods. It's a classic, I'm sure you know it even if you don't know the name
Gaya Ethaniel: yeah, heard of it before :)
Fefonz Quan: that's why i sent the link
Gaya Ethaniel: [Stim btw xxxxx left without giving permission so need to remove her name from the log]
Stim Morane: OK
Gaya Ethaniel: I suspect Fefonz, now that you know when feeling detached, over the time you will be able to stop the cycle. [well I'm hoping that's the case]
sophia Placebo: hmm
sophia Placebo: i can distingushed 2 feelings
sophia Placebo: distanced and detached
Gaya Ethaniel: What has helped me is trying to meditate more during the day.
sophia Placebo: say more gaya
Fefonz Quan: i mostly meditate during the day, but maybe
Gaya Ethaniel: You first sophia :)
sophia Placebo: :) ok , distanced is the feeling btw yourself and other rthings , hmm in good mood you appreciations to things is better and distances are larger
sophia Placebo: in bad sad mood ,everything just on your chest and aroud your neck
Fefonz Quan: interesting, for me in good mood i feel less distanced
sophia Placebo: but in that case you are more detached from them , they lose meaning
Fefonz Quan might indeed confuse these two terms
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
sophia Placebo: but in good mood when you can appreiciate things they are more distanced but more attachment to them
Gaya Ethaniel: Detached = what's the point feeling, Fefonz?
Gaya Ethaniel: Sorry I just don't have a way with words >.<
Fefonz Quan: yes, agreed Gaya. i thought distanced is similar ('you look distant today...')
Gaya Ethaniel: ok so I understood you ok then :)
Gaya Ethaniel: I was told 'there is no point' eeek
Wol Euler excuses herself and sneaks quietly away. Bye everyone, take care.
sophia Placebo: what i said at first being attached or detached from -self- in relation to moods is a third feeling though :)
Stim Morane: Bye Wol
Gaya Ethaniel: Goodnight Wol :)
Fefonz Quan: night Wol :)
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Wol
Pila Mulligan: bye Wol
sophia Placebo: bye wol
Gaya Ethaniel: In the past, I'd sit daily if possible, doing various things like watching mind, counting breath etc. And during the most I did was pause and look for why and what to do.
Gaya Ethaniel: These days I try to watch more during the day even if there isn't any loud pointers to make me stop.
Gaya Ethaniel: Anyway that's what I do these days.
Fefonz Quan: that sounds nice, incorporating it into the flow of the day
Gaya Ethaniel: 9 sec bell was helpful in that regards - got me to stop more frequently to begin with. These days I just pause when I 'feel like it'.
Gaya Ethaniel: When I do this less, I feel closed up and heavy
Fefonz Quan: me too, mostly
sophia Placebo: mee three
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Fefonz Quan: your four
Fefonz Quan: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: But genuinely this is something I am interested to find out more for my sake too. We can share more notes going forward :)
sophia Placebo: :-0
Gaya Ethaniel: ah and the View!
Gaya Ethaniel: That helped ... to be more open during sitting.
Gaya Ethaniel: You know the combining 3 types Stim mentioned?
Fefonz Quan nods
Gaya Ethaniel: Before I was doing #1 and #2 mainly.
sophia Placebo: better be off , goodnight all and thanks for the great chat :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Took a while to figure out I need to be inclusive >.<
Gaya Ethaniel: Good night sophia :)
Scathach Rhiadra: good night Sophia
Stim Morane: by sophia
Stim Morane: bye
Scathach Rhiadra: I must go too, good night all, thank you:)
Gaya Ethaniel: Good night Scath :)
Stim Morane: bye Scathach
Stim Morane: I should go as well
Stim Morane: Bye everyone!
Gaya Ethaniel: Bye Stim have a good day :)
Fefonz Quan: night scath, stim
Fefonz Quan: i thought #1 was not for daily practice
Gaya Ethaniel: Well I learnt that first and did that for a few years.
Fefonz Quan: wasn't the first the regular 'focusing' practice?
Pila Mulligan also slips away to rl -- bye Gaya and Fefonz
Fefonz Quan: bye Pila
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes counting breath with the vie that distractions is the cause of problems.
Gaya Ethaniel: Bye Pila
Gaya Ethaniel: Except a few meetings/retreats, I was learning alone.
Fefonz Quan: right.
Gaya Ethaniel: It can be done ... I know that but takes a looong time heheheheh
Fefonz Quan: yes, good teacher can initiate great leaps forward
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes at the same time, it's not easy to find a suitable or willing teacher.
Gaya Ethaniel: I'm glad I found PaB and WoK workshop.
Fefonz Quan: yes, i am glad too
Fefonz Quan: i did found a nice group though in RL even in my small country
Fefonz Quan: so i guess there are some meditation groups where you live too
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes tons!
Fefonz Quan: you know what they say 'when the student is ready, the teacher will come' :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes I wasn't ready :)
Fefonz Quan: as ready as any of us i guess :)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Well I should get going now too I'm afraid. It was a good discussion, thanks for your help Fefonz :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Enjoy your day/evening :)
Fefonz Quan: good to see you gaya! good night