2009.06.24 07:00 - Pride and the Judge

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Fefonz Quan. The comments are by Fefonz Quan.

    Fefonz Quan: Hi Gaya;)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Fefonz :) [btw you are standing on my screen]
    Gaya Ethaniel: Do you mind if I lower the fountain?
    Fefonz Quan: no, why and how?
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: I will forward the instruction from Storm. How are you anyway?
    Fefonz Quan: i am good, just warming up to the morning
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Just came in for a stop, it's been a bit stressful with my computer going wrong this morning.
    Fefonz Quan: and how are you?
    Fael Illyar: Hi Fefonz, Gaya.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Fael :)
    Fefonz Quan: oh
    Fefonz Quan: Hey Fael
    Gaya Ethaniel: How are you Fael?
    Fael Illyar: I'm well. You?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well thanks :)
    Fefonz Quan: a very new av, fael
    Gaya Ethaniel: oh it is :)
    Fael Illyar: Yes :)
    Fefonz Quan: ahwt happened to the old wingy you?
    Fael Illyar: very new.
    Fael Illyar: remains to be seen. I'll propably choose to look like that sometimes too.
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah ok
    Fefonz Quan nods.
    Fael Illyar: but as for wings ...
    Fael Illyar: I can wear them like this too :)
    Fefonz Quan: ah, now we recignizeyou :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Fael Illyar: these work too.
    Fael Illyar: seems the wings need a bit tuning to be in the right position for this shape though.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes :)
    Fefonz Quan: well, this small distance gives some dreamy hovering feeling :)
    Fael Illyar: distance?
    Fefonz Quan: i thought by position you meant the gap between the wings and back
    Fael Illyar: ah, I meant they were a bit too high.
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Fefonz Quan: i see. sorry for mixiing x and z axis :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Fael Illyar: that's ok :)
    Fael Illyar: the biggest problem is that my choice of clothes is now rather limited ... most of the clothes I have don't quite suit this AV :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well time for shopping/hunting :)
    Fefonz Quan: yep! i am surprised it is so easy to change av gender,
    Fael Illyar: yes, I stumbled on a hunt for stuff for males while buying the skin
    Fael Illyar: umm... how do you mean "easy"?
    Fael Illyar: as in what you need to do?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Fefonz, you can just go edit appearances and click female :)
    Fefonz Quan: ah, well didn't know that. ingnorants are easy to surprise :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Fael Illyar: I got this hair from the hunt thing at the shop I got this skin from
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah ok
    Gaya Ethaniel: Looks half redish brown and half black on my screen O.o
    Fael Illyar: works with female shape too but creates a boyish feel, this hair :)
    Fael Illyar: it is
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah ok
    Fefonz Quan: unisex they call this things in RL
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Fael Illyar: yes, this hair is kind of unisex :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: A funny word, now that I think about it
    Fael Illyar: although, I find hair that doesn't work for a female rather rare.
    Fefonz Quan: hmmm, interesting
    Fael Illyar: (that works for male that is)
    Fefonz Quan: does it say that females are much more versatile in that sense, while males are more conserc=vative?
    Fefonz Quan: conservative*
    Gaya Ethaniel: Or males are just less adventurous in their appearances?
    Fael Illyar: it says about what I accept (and expect others to accept) being worn by males or females.
    Fefonz Quan: yes, that's what i menat
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah ok, yes I agree.
    Fefonz Quan: (to Gaya)
    Fael Illyar: Hi Mick :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Mick :)
    Fefonz Quan: yes, your expected expectations...
    Fefonz Quan: Hi Mick
    Mickorod Renard: Hiya folks
    Fefonz Quan: btw - gaya - are you responsible to the title above my head?
    Fael Illyar: yes, as in what I expect to be able to wear without getting a ton bricks dumped on me for it :)
    Mickorod Renard: yea,,I had one of those
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes :) It's temporary so open to suggestion Fefonz.
    Fefonz Quan: is it attached to one of my contact groups?
    Gaya Ethaniel: You can change group tags easily by clicking Contacts tab in then Communicate window -> Groups
    Mickorod Renard: there,,I have it now
    Gaya Ethaniel: Select a group you'd like to display or none -> Activate
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Mickorod Renard: ;)
    Gaya Ethaniel: We missed you at the last workshop Mick :)
    Mickorod Renard: so I heard,,sorry
    Gaya Ethaniel: np at all :)
    Mickorod Renard: i just couldnt make it,,and I love Stims workshop
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yeah he loves you too :D
    Mickorod Renard: he he ..well I dont know about that,,;)
    Fefonz Quan: codependent arising...
    Gaya Ethaniel: ?
    Fefonz Quan: this mutual feelings there
    Fefonz Quan: these...
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Positive feedback loops hey?
    sophia Placebo: hi
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello sophia :)
    Mickorod Renard: hiya sophia
    Fael Illyar: Hi sophia :)
    Fefonz Quan: Hey Sophia
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
    Fefonz Quan: hey Yakuza
    sophia Placebo: hi yak
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Yakuzza :)
    Mickorod Renard: I think what welearn here is great,,hiya yaku,,,,,,but I wish I didnt keep loosing it
    Fael Illyar: Hi Yakuzza :)
    Fael Illyar: Mick, you're not losing it, you're studying it.
    Fefonz Quan: i know what you mean mick.
    sophia Placebo: feal you are a boy :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well personally I'm hoping eventually it will stick Mick :)
    Fefonz Quan: i believe practice helps in that
    Mickorod Renard: me too Gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel nods.
    Fael Illyar: sophia, yes :)
    Fefonz Quan: but it is interesting how different these things are from regular study of information and facts
    Fael Illyar: Mick, you're studying how things look from both ways. It's necessary part of integrating it.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Indeed Fefonz.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Though both are needed imo ...
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,I feel I have come a long way with that,,but still want more,,which is a weakness in me no doubt
    Mickorod Renard: to Fael
    Fefonz Quan: i feel in a way that sometimes it is more like traning in a gym. when you stop training, your muscles get weaker, no matter how well you remember the exercises
    Gaya Ethaniel: Like the way I understood 'selflessness' and 'emptiness' now is vastly different from that of the past.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes when one stops, it goes real fast and takes longer to build up again.
    Fefonz Quan: yes, me too Gaya, regarding no-self etc.

    At that point a newbie arrived, but after we all welcomed him and offered cards, he disappeared, so i removed all the relevant lines from the log.

    Mickorod Renard: I always found the gym diferent,,like as though once the muscles had an identity they could return easy
    Mickorod Renard: I am sure that i have learnt lots from the studies,,and yet it may not appear obvious,,and this is frustrating
    Gaya Ethaniel: Sometimes changes are incremental so takes a while to see it.

    Fefonz Quan: yes aya, mick, i know this frustration too.
    Fefonz Quan: gaya*
    Gaya Ethaniel: And when I see it, it tends to be out of blue/sudden click.
    Gaya Ethaniel nods.
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,for me too,,and I think wow,,I will never forget,,,then I do
    Gaya Ethaniel nods nods.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Habits are hard to break ...
    Fefonz Quan: and mostly just trying to hold to it makes it go away faster
    Mickorod Renard: perhaps u have a point Fef
    Fael Illyar: forgetting happens if it's necessary to learn something...
    Fefonz Quan: or relearn?
    Gaya Ethaniel: I do find writing helps ... record and to look back later.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes ... brain needs time to reoganise right?
    Gaya Ethaniel: re-organise*
    Mickorod Renard: it would be easier for me if I didnt care about seeming stupid
    Fael Illyar: the judge wouldn't let the learning happen so it's hidden from it that it's happening.
    Fefonz Quan: which judge?
    Fael Illyar: until it can no longer be prevented
    Gaya Ethaniel: brb
    Fael Illyar: the one in my mind or yours or someone else's
    Fefonz Quan: ha, that one! a tough one that judge is
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes, I guess in Mick's case, it says "That sounds stupid."
    Fael Illyar: the judge is just a part of the whole and when something needs to happen and the judge is in the way, it's worked around the best it can.
    Fael Illyar: forgetting is one way for that.
    Mickorod Renard: so,,gotta get rid of the judge?
    Fael Illyar: it's the judge there telling you you need to get rid of itself :)
    Fefonz Quan: that would be too judgmental, won't it Mick?
    Gaya Ethaniel: What is 'it' here Fael? "it's worked around the best it can."
    Fefonz Quan: :)
    Mickorod Renard: he he
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Fael Illyar: the judge
    Gaya Ethaniel: Seeing the judging mind is enough I think Mick.
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah ok
    Mickorod Renard: I guess when one is satisfied that I am pure in thought and actions,,then the judge will feel surpluss and take early retirement
    Fael Illyar: the same way in a country. When the government is passing idiotic laws, citizens will do their best to get around them and even break them if necessary.
    Fefonz Quan: the judge will call it Pride mick, and go on
    Mickorod Renard: true,,so best work within what is ethicaly right
    Mickorod Renard: not be greedy etc
    Mickorod Renard: one thing i have discovered is,,I have tried to become more correct,,and this makes me more judgemental about myself,,not less
    Fael Illyar: what is your motivation for becoming more correct?
    Gaya Ethaniel: The judge is definitely different from the rational mind/ability to judge ... just goes problematic when it affects one's ability to see.
    Mickorod Renard: my motivation,,phew,,I have almost forgotten why
    Gaya Ethaniel: Would you care to say where is ideas/standards of 'correctness' come from Mick?
    Fael Illyar: (also, what does it mean to be more correct?)
    Gaya Ethaniel: these ideas/standards*
    Fefonz Quan: correctness might be a big obstacle
    Gaya Ethaniel nods.
    sophia Placebo: how so?
    Gaya Ethaniel: It may takes some time to untangle the 'correctness' ball.
    Mickorod Renard: well,,that is dificult area
    Gaya Ethaniel: Because it may have got various ideas from different situations/people over the time.
    Fefonz Quan: very hard to accept yourself and the world, and being correct all the time
    Mickorod Renard: I can say that much came from revelations about my past
    sophia Placebo: hmm
    Fael Illyar: being correct is a practical impossibility :)
    Fael Illyar: that is... if I understood right what you mean with it :)
    Mickorod Renard: some also from discovering a basis in most religions
    Gaya Ethaniel: Essentially though those correctness ideas/standards come from yourself Mick. So you can change if you want.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Or decide to drop even ...
    Fefonz Quan: exactly. always correct is like building an utopia, where the reality fails to compare permanently
    Mickorod Renard: like we discover in Stims group,,some things are not obviously damaging to others,,but are
    Fefonz Quan: yes, dropping it might be a useful practice
    sophia Placebo: isnt that perfectness
    Gaya Ethaniel: Think it's a bit different but similar in vein.
    Fael Illyar: correctness is a form of perfection.
    Fefonz Quan: correctness is a pointer to perfectness
    Mickorod Renard: there are still the basic,love one another aspects
    Mickorod Renard: and some peoples idea of how that works is quite diferent to otheres
    sophia Placebo: well i dont think im perfect nor poeple around me thus i dont treat them as such not expect to be treated as such
    Fefonz Quan: personally, one of the biggest breakthrough i had was when i let go of being 'good' or 'just' all the time, and letting myself be accepted even when acting foolishly
    sophia Placebo: but i lkie to be more correct in how i interact with them
    Gaya Ethaniel nods @ Fefonz.
    Gaya Ethaniel: It can be a real stumbling block.
    Fael Illyar: yes, true freedom includes the permission to be a complete idiot.
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: lol
    Fefonz Quan: also, the fear that you will not be correct is a big barrier from acting and being
    Mickorod Renard: well,,I have become much more honest..not that I was a liar and cheat,,but more so in that I am happier to reveal my true self
    Fael Illyar: ah wait, not permission, a right :)
    Fefonz Quan: yep! to Fael]
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: What others will think of me is something I won't be able to know let alone something I can influence.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Alast ... the hour is up and I must get back to RL ... was great to pause and talk with friends :)
    sophia Placebo: bye gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: Thank you, enjoy your day :)
    Fael Illyar: See you later Gaya :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye gaya
    Mickorod Renard: bye Gaya
    Mickorod Renard: I suppose non of us will truly know what others think of us
    sophia Placebo: you can ask
    Mickorod Renard: grin
    Fefonz Quan: bye gaya
    Fael Illyar: sophia, even that is complete certainty :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: neither i want to :)
    Fael Illyar: is not
    sophia Placebo: no certinity but not complete truth
    sophia Placebo: rarely one would tell you the complete truth about what he thinks about you
    Mickorod Renard: but I wouldnt want to be nice for reward, my reward would only be in feeling I have done no harm
    Yakuzza Lethecus: It´s one of my biggest problem´s in real life that i care about what other people think about me.
    Fefonz Quan nods to yakuzza
    Mickorod Renard: I am sensitive to rejection
    Fael Illyar: Everyone is sensitive to rejection...
    Fefonz Quan: letting go of it (to yaku) is a big big relief, i can tell you
    Fael Illyar: some just hide it better
    Fefonz Quan: yes, rejection is not fun...
    Fefonz Quan: paradoxicaly, when you care less, you are less rejected :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: Maybe i have a problem because i am living on the countryside and i see always the same faces and there are stories about people from 10 years ago still around...
    sophia Placebo: :)
    Mickorod Renard: that is an interesting point Fael,,,I think we often think everyone else is either happier or better,,yet I find that most are just good at hidng things
    Fael Illyar: when you care, others notice and use that to control you.
    Fael Illyar: (not everyone but many)
    Fefonz Quan: agree
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,sorry bout my grammer
    sophia Placebo: kidness is something , weakness is something else
    Fefonz Quan: i don't think others are happier
    Fefonz Quan: few others, maybe
    Mickorod Renard: weaknes is sometimes a strenth
    Fael Illyar: and even if they were, why would it matter?
    Mickorod Renard: well,,i spose I look for standards,,like a measure
    Fael Illyar: yes, also easy to mistake a strength for a weakness
    Mickorod Renard: and wud like to be in the middle of happy etc
    sophia Placebo: true
    Fefonz Quan: yes to weakness. the parable says, in the strong wind, the trees that bent won't break
    Fael Illyar: when someone cares about not hurting you, becoming more easily hurt is also a way to control... even if a rather extreme one.
    Fefonz Quan: not sure how extreme statistically
    Mickorod Renard: thats an interesting observation Fael
    Fael Illyar: although, I'd think that's mostly subconscious.
    Mickorod Renard: I have noticed that some who spout on about violence and bullying,,are often just as bad but ully using cleverness and words
    Mickorod Renard: there is much veilled
    Mickorod Renard: hidden
    sophia Placebo: better to look to one mistakes rather looking to others me thinks
    Fefonz Quan nods
    Fefonz Quan: and accepting ones mistakes might lead to accepting others too
    Mickorod Renard: altering the past to correct mistakes was raised yesterday
    Fefonz Quan: yes? could it be done?
    Mickorod Renard: only slightly
    sophia Placebo: plus watching poeple all the time is a very exhuasting job , this is happier that is richer , those are luckier so on
    Mickorod Renard: no
    Fefonz Quan: can you say more?
    Mickorod Renard: well,,I have been tormented by wanting to put things right
    Mickorod Renard: and in the end have noticed that i was bordering on looking for ways to alter the past
    Fael Illyar: Ah, seems I need to leave... See you all later :)
    Mickorod Renard: which is a waste of effort
    sophia Placebo: bye fef
    Mickorod Renard: bye Fael
    Fefonz Quan: bye fael, good seeing you
    sophia Placebo: * feal
    Fefonz Quan: :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: ok, bye everyone
    sophia Placebo: bye yak
    Fefonz Quan: bye yak
    Mickorod Renard: bye yak
    Fefonz Quan: yes, indeed a waste
    Fefonz Quan: though a very common practice
    Mickorod Renard: I think the point is,,one has to try and get past regrets and things
    Mickorod Renard: as i cannot undo all mistakes
    Fefonz Quan nods
    Mickorod Renard: either mine or others
    Fefonz Quan: [8:13] sophia Placebo: plus watching poeple all the time is a very exhuasting job , this is happier that is richer , those are luckier so on
    Fefonz Quan: one of my favorite quotes regarding that is:
    Mickorod Renard: and i think it may have been from realising that some regrets are so bad that only by a change of way of life can hopefully avoid further ones
    Fefonz Quan: 'there are three kind of pride: one when you think you are betterthen others, two when you think you are worse, and three when you think you are exactly the same'
    Fefonz Quan: kinds*
    sophia Placebo: i understand mick
    Fefonz Quan: yes, mick
    Fefonz Quan: and regret is like an overdraft never closed, just taking more and more energy
    Mickorod Renard: pride is a largely misunderstood word
    sophia Placebo: yep the pride to be exctly the same , like poepel going to therapist and just want to be like normal poeple
    sophia Placebo: but i didnt get the wors part
    Fefonz Quan: agree sophia, but more over, i think it is pointing to the comparison itself as a wrong pracice
    Mickorod Renard: how do you mean sophia?
    Fefonz Quan: (being lesss then others is maybe more correct)
    Mickorod Renard: I see now
    sophia Placebo: agrees to comparision being wrong practice in many times
    Mickorod Renard: I decided to work on pride from an angle of,,if it means cost to someone else its pride...
    Fefonz Quan: interesting definition...
    Mickorod Renard: like for eg,,becoming rich by ripping people off
    Fefonz Quan: this is just stealing, why pride?
    Fefonz Quan: i see pride as a state of mind rather than action
    Mickorod Renard: often when people feel pride in themselves,,under the surface is that they feel they have made themselves better than someone else
    Mickorod Renard: and have not considered the effects on others
    sophia Placebo: fef , one can be pride but hold himself from showing , one is not pride but poeple see him as one due to his actions
    Fefonz Quan: even what you don't show effect your reality
    sophia Placebo: true
    Fefonz Quan: and you can be very proud without hearting others. then you mostly heart yourself
    Fefonz Quan: hurt*
    sophia Placebo: g2g , see you later
    Fefonz Quan: bye Sophia
    Mickorod Renard: c u Sophia
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,pride goes much deeper than many think
    Mickorod Renard: and its a subject all in its own
    Fefonz Quan: its one of the most anti-no-self ingredients there is
    Fefonz Quan: pro-self i guess would sound simpler :)
    Mickorod Renard: I didnt believe pride was so bad until I saw some explanations
    Mickorod Renard: I like most of the world I guess,,was brought up through school to think pride was so important
    Mickorod Renard: pride was a valable asset to have
    Fefonz Quan: yes. i can see that it has some important role in cultivating self-confidence
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    Fefonz Quan: but maybe it can be approached in a less comparative way
    Mickorod Renard: but typical is the way people motivate themselves through pride,,and then gloat at their success
    Fefonz Quan: less attached way maybe
    Mickorod Renard: a better way would be to see how one can raise the conditions of those less fortunate
    Fefonz Quan: one should have appereciation for oneself i think.
    Mickorod Renard: yes,perhaps
    Fefonz Quan: but not on the acount of others.
    Fefonz Quan: account*
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,i guess only we ourselves can know the motives behind our actions
    Fefonz Quan: in buddhist karma stidies, the states of mind are no less important than the outside actions.
    Fefonz Quan: they even say, that is someone built and orfand house, but in order to put his name on it, he gained negative karma
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,i see the reasoning
    Mickorod Renard: and very true
    Mickorod Renard: I question myself often
    Mickorod Renard: my motives
    Mickorod Renard: in the end,,it will be what is in my mind that i will die with
    Mickorod Renard: money, clothes,,all insignificant
    Mickorod Renard: ok Fef, I have to get to the shops
    Mickorod Renard: before they close
    Fefonz Quan: have a good evening Mick
    Fefonz Quan: c u
    Mickorod Renard: thanks,,you have a good rest of day,,grin
    Mickorod Renard: c u
    Fefonz Quan: :)

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