2009.06.24 13:00 - "Looking into What You Are"

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    The Guardian for this meeting was genesis Zhangsun. The comments are by genesis Zhangsun.

    sophia Placebo: hi storm
    Storm Nordwind: Hi sophia
    sophia Placebo: hi gen
    genesis Zhangsun: Hi Storm, hi Sophia
    sophia Placebo: can denying self lead to hostility ?
    genesis Zhangsun: That is an interesting thing to say
    genesis Zhangsun: are you having some experiences with this sophia?
    Storm Nordwind: Hostility by whom towards whom?
    sophia Placebo: yes
    sophia Placebo: the denier storm toward self and others
    sophia Placebo: hi gaya
    Storm Nordwind: denier sophia?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello :)
    genesis Zhangsun: hi Gaya
    sophia Placebo: denyer ?
    Storm Nordwind is not sure what that means, sorry
    Gaya Ethaniel: Could someone copp/paste what's been said before I joined in IM please?
    sophia Placebo: hmm im not sure about this , still thinking of it , but i feel that if someone deny oneself - deny it some right or some identification or some care or some love - that leads to hostility being arises from within
    Gaya Ethaniel: Denial?
    sophia Placebo: yes :) thanks
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    genesis Zhangsun: sophia do you think the self exists?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes, not accepting others of one's traits can cause negative moods.
    Gaya Ethaniel: others or*
    sophia Placebo: as that me is not you , as this body is here behind the keyborard yes i do
    genesis Zhangsun: so you would define self as other and as physical body
    genesis Zhangsun: Gaya is talking about self as traits
    genesis Zhangsun: that is also another interpretation
    Gaya Ethaniel: [that's how I understood it]
    genesis Zhangsun: sophia do you also see the self as collection of traits?
    Gaya Ethaniel: [that's not my definition of self btw]
    genesis Zhangsun: Hi Fefonz
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Fefonz :)
    Fefonz Quan: Hey All :)
    Storm Nordwind: Hi Fef
    genesis Zhangsun: sure Gaya okay what is your complete definition?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Let me make nc of what's been said Fefonz :)
    sophia Placebo: hi fef
    Gaya Ethaniel: Sorry I can't answer that gen.
    Fefonz Quan: cool thanks.
    genesis Zhangsun: why is that?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Traits are part of it yes but I don't know beyond it - hope that's satisfactory for you.
    sophia Placebo: gen when i said as me is not you i meant it in everymeaning you can get there
    genesis Zhangsun: I guess I am just trying to get a sense of what you and gaya and others see as "self"
    genesis Zhangsun: there is no right answer :)
    genesis Zhangsun: just perspectives
    Fefonz Quan: i also see it as a distinguished point of view
    sophia Placebo: i tried to bring up better answer sorry
    genesis Zhangsun: I think without knowing what you (sophia) see as self it is hard to understand what a denial of self means
    Gaya Ethaniel: As with difficult concepts, I cannot claim to know the whole I'm afraid gen ... what I understand now may well be different later as well.
    genesis Zhangsun: which is how the conversation started
    Gaya Ethaniel: Anyway my understanding was others and one's traits etc ...
    Fefonz Quan: and self can have some layers, beginning with teh physical, emotional, etc.
    genesis Zhangsun: yes you could deny the body food, water etc
    genesis Zhangsun: you could deny your self of pursuing physical desires
    genesis Zhangsun: but denial could also be mental, emotional
    genesis Zhangsun: can you define further what you mean by denial?
    Fefonz Quan: maybe a denial of the difference between me and you
    sophia Placebo: well
    Gaya Ethaniel: I understood denial as not accepting - [13:05] sophia Placebo: can denying self lead to hostility ?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Guess since many of us are not native English, I tend to read it loosely, sorry.
    sophia Placebo: all of what you said is true in my question case
    Gaya Ethaniel: oh so I understood you ok sophia?
    sophia Placebo: totally gaya
    sophia Placebo: and fef and gen
    Gaya Ethaniel: wow happy occassion - it's rare ^__^
    sophia Placebo: hehe :)
    genesis Zhangsun: so you are not accempting all aspects of your self physical, emotional,
    genesis Zhangsun: is that right?
    genesis Zhangsun: *accepting
    sophia Placebo: in a way or another
    Fefonz Quan: "Denial ain't just a river in Egypt." :)
    Storm Nordwind groans
    Gaya Ethaniel: In extreme situation personally, it can lead to anger yes ... but normally I just end up feeling a bit down about myself and that's it until next round.
    sophia Placebo: :-))
    genesis Zhangsun: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: lol Fefonz
    genesis Zhangsun: I don't get it
    genesis Zhangsun: what does denying the self mean
    genesis Zhangsun: like not eating chocolate?
    Gaya Ethaniel: hm ...
    Storm Nordwind: mmmmmm chocolate
    Fefonz Quan: maybe we are talking about deniying the existance of teh self?
    genesis Zhangsun: I thought that was the original topic
    genesis Zhangsun: but I got confused
    sophia Placebo: like sophia trying to deny that she is sophia
    genesis Zhangsun: ah okay I was not confused
    Storm Nordwind: Or denying the evidence that self even exists perhaps? (Or doesn't exist?)
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah ok so I didnt' quite get it after all ^^;;;
    sophia Placebo: hmm storm i was going to think about that :)
    Storm Nordwind: But what is "sophia"?
    genesis Zhangsun: so what is "sophia"
    genesis Zhangsun: lol
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    sophia Placebo: what is sophia ?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Gosh questions you guy throw out!
    Gaya Ethaniel: guys*
    sophia Placebo: who is sophia should be the question right ?
    genesis Zhangsun: just trying to be helpful :)
    Fefonz Quan: i thought what is is more appropriate here
    Storm Nordwind: No not who. Because that makes the assumption already that you are a person with all the baggage that brings. First find out what.
    sophia Placebo: like in the mild case trying to deny myself a choclate and in extreme state trying to deny that -i- deserve something at least
    Fefonz Quan: yes, there are two different notionts for denial here.
    Gaya Ethaniel: I know gen :) People who are genuinely interested in others like you and many at PaB are treasures.
    sophia Placebo: hmm storm , like me consisting of atoms cells genetics , tissues and organs?
    sophia Placebo: thats my corsp
    genesis Zhangsun: :) back at you Gaya
    Storm Nordwind: Yes sophia, but that's not what it seems you meant. I'm happy to discuss chocolate denial! :)
    sophia Placebo: hehe choclate it is then
    Gaya Ethaniel: heheheh Storm
    Fefonz Quan: [13:09] sophia Placebo: hmm im not sure about this , still thinking of it , but i feel that if someone deny oneself - deny it some right or some identification or some care or some love - that leads to hostility being arises from within
    sophia Placebo: dose it leads to hostility when you deny yourself a choclate ?
    Storm Nordwind: That depends on why you do it
    Fefonz Quan: surely can!
    Gaya Ethaniel looks at Storm for an answer.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Fefonz you have a troublesome relationship with chocolate too?
    Storm Nordwind: If you deny yourself chocolate because you need to lose weight, or you will get spots, you can feel a sense of satisfaction for taking control of yourself. No hostility there.
    Fefonz Quan: not a big one, but i know that when one need carbs (sweet are a good example) and don't get them, grampiness evolves swiftly :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes instable sugar level in blood streams :)
    Storm Nordwind: That's an insulin problem Fefonz
    Gaya Ethaniel: unstable*
    genesis Zhangsun: but the question is who has the insulin problem ;)
    Storm Nordwind: Go to a low carb diet and that will disappear in a day or two
    Gaya Ethaniel: :D
    Fefonz Quan: well, in a way 90% of the population will feel it
    Gaya Ethaniel: Not those in Beverley HIlls in LA for sure.
    Fefonz Quan: saying low carb diet and day or two in one sentence seems odd to me.
    sophia Placebo: thats prediabetic state
    genesis Zhangsun: can I offer one view
    Gaya Ethaniel: Sure shoot gen :)
    sophia Placebo: and you dont get hostile ,better , just nervouse
    Storm Nordwind takes ain
    Storm Nordwind: *aim
    genesis Zhangsun: so I don't think when the Buddha talked about "no self" for example, again this is just one view
    Fefonz Quan: without getting physiological, in general what is meant is that deniying one from things he crave, tend to bring agitation and short temper
    genesis Zhangsun: the Buddha did not mean asceticism
    Storm Nordwind: No Fefonz. That is not a given.
    genesis Zhangsun: denial of the body to the point of pain
    genesis Zhangsun: I think this is what Storm is getting at by his abstaining from chocolate to lose some weight
    genesis Zhangsun: but if you abstain from chocolate because you deny yourself any pleasure
    genesis Zhangsun: that is in the direction of asceticism
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes Storm I agree, not always it leads to negative states.
    sophia Placebo: hi pema
    genesis Zhangsun: HI Pema
    Pema Pera: Hi Gen, Storm, Sophia, Gaya, Fef!
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Pema :)
    Fefonz Quan: Hey Pema :)
    Storm Nordwind: Again, although I am nowhere near being an ascetic, if you do it to fulfill a purpose, the pleasure in that purpose can override any discomfort from denial
    Storm Nordwind: Hi Pema
    Fefonz Quan: i agree with storm too. though it takes some work to get there.
    Gaya Ethaniel: I think it depends a lot on reasons behind the denial ...
    Fefonz Quan: and also, by forcing it out of your life, i am not sure it will bring the best results
    genesis Zhangsun: yes indeed that is why I think it is important to inquire into who you are "denying"
    Fefonz Quan: letting go and avoiding are two different things
    genesis Zhangsun: who do you see is there?
    genesis Zhangsun: or "what"
    genesis Zhangsun: same question
    Gaya Ethaniel: What do you think gen?
    Gaya Ethaniel: [in your experiences]
    genesis Zhangsun: you could take a small view of yourself as a bundle of your indentifications
    genesis Zhangsun: and if you see yourself "fat" or "smart" or "bad" or "good"
    genesis Zhangsun: lets take "fat"
    genesis Zhangsun: since we are on the issue of chocolate
    genesis Zhangsun: so if you see yourself as "fat"
    genesis Zhangsun: then perhaps denying yourself of chocolate seems like a denial of self
    genesis Zhangsun: hmm sorry not explaining well
    Storm Nordwind: or it could be denial of the opportunity to be "unfat", if you consider thin being better than fat
    genesis Zhangsun: yes okay that makes sense Storm
    sophia Placebo nods
    genesis Zhangsun: I guess I am just trying to get at again "who are you denying"
    Fefonz Quan: i think we talk about some addiction here, not exactly denial of self
    genesis Zhangsun: in my experience I can tell when I am denying my small self and when I am denying my truer self
    genesis Zhangsun: when I deny my small self it stings for a little while
    genesis Zhangsun: when I deny my "truer" self it feel completely wrong right away
    genesis Zhangsun: and stays that way
    genesis Zhangsun: until I stop
    Gaya Ethaniel: I feel 'closed up' a bit in those time - 'denying true self'
    Fefonz Quan: how do you deny your truer self? can you give an example?
    sophia Placebo: can you explain your 2 selvs gen ?
    Fefonz Quan: (i guess chocolate wont do that)
    genesis Zhangsun: I guess its just about the small things v. the bigger picture of who I am
    genesis Zhangsun: I can deny myself a lot of small things
    genesis Zhangsun: chocolate etx
    Gaya Ethaniel: lol did't know chocolate can cause such an impact.
    genesis Zhangsun: *etc
    genesis Zhangsun: but denying myself of who I really "am" in a big picture sense
    Fefonz Quan: try 'hotel chocolate' in London Gaya :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: oh heheheh
    genesis Zhangsun: really hurts, small things you get over
    Gaya Ethaniel: Don't you find gen in those times relationships/understanding others also suffer?
    genesis Zhangsun: yeah you just feel very disconnected
    genesis Zhangsun: and when I feel that I try reconnect
    Gaya Ethaniel nods ...
    genesis Zhangsun: *to reconnect
    Gaya Ethaniel: That's why I said earlier, it *can* lead to hostility in sophia's statement.
    genesis Zhangsun: we are musing about self and no self and denial of self as leading to hostility
    genesis Zhangsun: (for Pema)
    genesis Zhangsun: yes Gaya thats right
    genesis Zhangsun: so I agree sophia
    genesis Zhangsun: denial of the true self does lead to hostility :)
    Pema Pera: you talked about addiction too: perhaps addiction is the double denial of the small self and the present -- trying to go back to what pleased the small self in the past
    sophia Placebo: :)
    Storm Nordwind suspects that in league table of things that lead to hostility, self denial is way down the list
    sophia Placebo: whats on the top?
    genesis Zhangsun: thats an interesting point Pema
    Storm Nordwind: Good question. Could be many things sophia
    Fefonz Quan: other denying you? (to sophia) :)
    Gaya Ethaniel still thinking what Pema said ... brain going flat after Kant >.<
    genesis Zhangsun: so do we eat chocolate to pleasr the small self- repeat some past experience of eating a chocolate and feel warm and fuzzy or do we eat chocolate for this moment because it is the natural thing to do
    sophia Placebo: hmm fef , thats dosnt lead to that much amount untill you are confronted by others
    genesis Zhangsun: I am going to disappear in 1 minute
    Fefonz Quan: well if the other deny your freedom, rights to exist etc., it senough amount for most people
    genesis Zhangsun: just had to let you all know
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well time for bed then. Thanks for the conversation.
    Gaya Ethaniel waves.
    Fefonz Quan: night Gaya
    Pema Pera: bye Gaya!
    sophia Placebo: bye gaya
    Storm Nordwind waves
    genesis Zhangsun: night gaya
    Fefonz Quan: i still wander about the other meaning - the denial of the existance of the self
    Fefonz Quan: wonder*
    sophia Placebo: what do you think fef?
    Storm Nordwind: gen's battery has finally denied her access to the conversation
    sophia Placebo: hehe
    Fefonz Quan: or did she go to the Kira meeting?
    Storm Nordwind has a meeting to go to
    Storm Nordwind: No she ran out of power
    Fefonz Quan: yep, me too.
    Storm Nordwind: Please excuse me
    Storm Nordwind: Namaste
    sophia Placebo: bye storm , fef , pema
    Pema Pera: good seeing you all, sorry to be so late -- just woke up :)
    Fefonz Quan: bye Sophia
    Fefonz Quan: , Pema
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