2009.06.24 13:00 - "Looking into What You Are"

The Guardian for this meeting was genesis Zhangsun. The comments are by genesis Zhangsun.

sophia Placebo: hi storm
Storm Nordwind: Hi sophia
sophia Placebo: hi gen
genesis Zhangsun: Hi Storm, hi Sophia
sophia Placebo: can denying self lead to hostility ?
genesis Zhangsun: That is an interesting thing to say
genesis Zhangsun: are you having some experiences with this sophia?
Storm Nordwind: Hostility by whom towards whom?
sophia Placebo: yes
sophia Placebo: the denier storm toward self and others
sophia Placebo: hi gaya
Storm Nordwind: denier sophia?
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello :)
genesis Zhangsun: hi Gaya
sophia Placebo: denyer ?
Storm Nordwind is not sure what that means, sorry
Gaya Ethaniel: Could someone copp/paste what's been said before I joined in IM please?
sophia Placebo: hmm im not sure about this , still thinking of it , but i feel that if someone deny oneself - deny it some right or some identification or some care or some love - that leads to hostility being arises from within
Gaya Ethaniel: Denial?
sophia Placebo: yes :) thanks
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
genesis Zhangsun: sophia do you think the self exists?
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes, not accepting others of one's traits can cause negative moods.
Gaya Ethaniel: others or*
sophia Placebo: as that me is not you , as this body is here behind the keyborard yes i do
genesis Zhangsun: so you would define self as other and as physical body
genesis Zhangsun: Gaya is talking about self as traits
genesis Zhangsun: that is also another interpretation
Gaya Ethaniel: [that's how I understood it]
genesis Zhangsun: sophia do you also see the self as collection of traits?
Gaya Ethaniel: [that's not my definition of self btw]
genesis Zhangsun: Hi Fefonz
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Fefonz :)
Fefonz Quan: Hey All :)
Storm Nordwind: Hi Fef
genesis Zhangsun: sure Gaya okay what is your complete definition?
Gaya Ethaniel: Let me make nc of what's been said Fefonz :)
sophia Placebo: hi fef
Gaya Ethaniel: Sorry I can't answer that gen.
Fefonz Quan: cool thanks.
genesis Zhangsun: why is that?
Gaya Ethaniel: Traits are part of it yes but I don't know beyond it - hope that's satisfactory for you.
sophia Placebo: gen when i said as me is not you i meant it in everymeaning you can get there
genesis Zhangsun: I guess I am just trying to get a sense of what you and gaya and others see as "self"
genesis Zhangsun: there is no right answer :)
genesis Zhangsun: just perspectives
Fefonz Quan: i also see it as a distinguished point of view
sophia Placebo: i tried to bring up better answer sorry
genesis Zhangsun: I think without knowing what you (sophia) see as self it is hard to understand what a denial of self means
Gaya Ethaniel: As with difficult concepts, I cannot claim to know the whole I'm afraid gen ... what I understand now may well be different later as well.
genesis Zhangsun: which is how the conversation started
Gaya Ethaniel: Anyway my understanding was others and one's traits etc ...
Fefonz Quan: and self can have some layers, beginning with teh physical, emotional, etc.
genesis Zhangsun: yes you could deny the body food, water etc
genesis Zhangsun: you could deny your self of pursuing physical desires
genesis Zhangsun: but denial could also be mental, emotional
genesis Zhangsun: can you define further what you mean by denial?
Fefonz Quan: maybe a denial of the difference between me and you
sophia Placebo: well
Gaya Ethaniel: I understood denial as not accepting - [13:05] sophia Placebo: can denying self lead to hostility ?
Gaya Ethaniel: Guess since many of us are not native English, I tend to read it loosely, sorry.
sophia Placebo: all of what you said is true in my question case
Gaya Ethaniel: oh so I understood you ok sophia?
sophia Placebo: totally gaya
sophia Placebo: and fef and gen
Gaya Ethaniel: wow happy occassion - it's rare ^__^
sophia Placebo: hehe :)
genesis Zhangsun: so you are not accempting all aspects of your self physical, emotional,
genesis Zhangsun: is that right?
genesis Zhangsun: *accepting
sophia Placebo: in a way or another
Fefonz Quan: "Denial ain't just a river in Egypt." :)
Storm Nordwind groans
Gaya Ethaniel: In extreme situation personally, it can lead to anger yes ... but normally I just end up feeling a bit down about myself and that's it until next round.
sophia Placebo: :-))
genesis Zhangsun: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: lol Fefonz
genesis Zhangsun: I don't get it
genesis Zhangsun: what does denying the self mean
genesis Zhangsun: like not eating chocolate?
Gaya Ethaniel: hm ...
Storm Nordwind: mmmmmm chocolate
Fefonz Quan: maybe we are talking about deniying the existance of teh self?
genesis Zhangsun: I thought that was the original topic
genesis Zhangsun: but I got confused
sophia Placebo: like sophia trying to deny that she is sophia
genesis Zhangsun: ah okay I was not confused
Storm Nordwind: Or denying the evidence that self even exists perhaps? (Or doesn't exist?)
Gaya Ethaniel: ah ok so I didnt' quite get it after all ^^;;;
sophia Placebo: hmm storm i was going to think about that :)
Storm Nordwind: But what is "sophia"?
genesis Zhangsun: so what is "sophia"
genesis Zhangsun: lol
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
sophia Placebo: what is sophia ?
Gaya Ethaniel: Gosh questions you guy throw out!
Gaya Ethaniel: guys*
sophia Placebo: who is sophia should be the question right ?
genesis Zhangsun: just trying to be helpful :)
Fefonz Quan: i thought what is is more appropriate here
Storm Nordwind: No not who. Because that makes the assumption already that you are a person with all the baggage that brings. First find out what.
sophia Placebo: like in the mild case trying to deny myself a choclate and in extreme state trying to deny that -i- deserve something at least
Fefonz Quan: yes, there are two different notionts for denial here.
Gaya Ethaniel: I know gen :) People who are genuinely interested in others like you and many at PaB are treasures.
sophia Placebo: hmm storm , like me consisting of atoms cells genetics , tissues and organs?
sophia Placebo: thats my corsp
genesis Zhangsun: :) back at you Gaya
Storm Nordwind: Yes sophia, but that's not what it seems you meant. I'm happy to discuss chocolate denial! :)
sophia Placebo: hehe choclate it is then
Gaya Ethaniel: heheheh Storm
Fefonz Quan: [13:09] sophia Placebo: hmm im not sure about this , still thinking of it , but i feel that if someone deny oneself - deny it some right or some identification or some care or some love - that leads to hostility being arises from within
sophia Placebo: dose it leads to hostility when you deny yourself a choclate ?
Storm Nordwind: That depends on why you do it
Fefonz Quan: surely can!
Gaya Ethaniel looks at Storm for an answer.
Gaya Ethaniel: Fefonz you have a troublesome relationship with chocolate too?
Storm Nordwind: If you deny yourself chocolate because you need to lose weight, or you will get spots, you can feel a sense of satisfaction for taking control of yourself. No hostility there.
Fefonz Quan: not a big one, but i know that when one need carbs (sweet are a good example) and don't get them, grampiness evolves swiftly :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes instable sugar level in blood streams :)
Storm Nordwind: That's an insulin problem Fefonz
Gaya Ethaniel: unstable*
genesis Zhangsun: but the question is who has the insulin problem ;)
Storm Nordwind: Go to a low carb diet and that will disappear in a day or two
Gaya Ethaniel: :D
Fefonz Quan: well, in a way 90% of the population will feel it
Gaya Ethaniel: Not those in Beverley HIlls in LA for sure.
Fefonz Quan: saying low carb diet and day or two in one sentence seems odd to me.
sophia Placebo: thats prediabetic state
genesis Zhangsun: can I offer one view
Gaya Ethaniel: Sure shoot gen :)
sophia Placebo: and you dont get hostile ,better , just nervouse
Storm Nordwind takes ain
Storm Nordwind: *aim
genesis Zhangsun: so I don't think when the Buddha talked about "no self" for example, again this is just one view
Fefonz Quan: without getting physiological, in general what is meant is that deniying one from things he crave, tend to bring agitation and short temper
genesis Zhangsun: the Buddha did not mean asceticism
Storm Nordwind: No Fefonz. That is not a given.
genesis Zhangsun: denial of the body to the point of pain
genesis Zhangsun: I think this is what Storm is getting at by his abstaining from chocolate to lose some weight
genesis Zhangsun: but if you abstain from chocolate because you deny yourself any pleasure
genesis Zhangsun: that is in the direction of asceticism
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes Storm I agree, not always it leads to negative states.
sophia Placebo: hi pema
genesis Zhangsun: HI Pema
Pema Pera: Hi Gen, Storm, Sophia, Gaya, Fef!
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Pema :)
Fefonz Quan: Hey Pema :)
Storm Nordwind: Again, although I am nowhere near being an ascetic, if you do it to fulfill a purpose, the pleasure in that purpose can override any discomfort from denial
Storm Nordwind: Hi Pema
Fefonz Quan: i agree with storm too. though it takes some work to get there.
Gaya Ethaniel: I think it depends a lot on reasons behind the denial ...
Fefonz Quan: and also, by forcing it out of your life, i am not sure it will bring the best results
genesis Zhangsun: yes indeed that is why I think it is important to inquire into who you are "denying"
Fefonz Quan: letting go and avoiding are two different things
genesis Zhangsun: who do you see is there?
genesis Zhangsun: or "what"
genesis Zhangsun: same question
Gaya Ethaniel: What do you think gen?
Gaya Ethaniel: [in your experiences]
genesis Zhangsun: you could take a small view of yourself as a bundle of your indentifications
genesis Zhangsun: and if you see yourself "fat" or "smart" or "bad" or "good"
genesis Zhangsun: lets take "fat"
genesis Zhangsun: since we are on the issue of chocolate
genesis Zhangsun: so if you see yourself as "fat"
genesis Zhangsun: then perhaps denying yourself of chocolate seems like a denial of self
genesis Zhangsun: hmm sorry not explaining well
Storm Nordwind: or it could be denial of the opportunity to be "unfat", if you consider thin being better than fat
genesis Zhangsun: yes okay that makes sense Storm
sophia Placebo nods
genesis Zhangsun: I guess I am just trying to get at again "who are you denying"
Fefonz Quan: i think we talk about some addiction here, not exactly denial of self
genesis Zhangsun: in my experience I can tell when I am denying my small self and when I am denying my truer self
genesis Zhangsun: when I deny my small self it stings for a little while
genesis Zhangsun: when I deny my "truer" self it feel completely wrong right away
genesis Zhangsun: and stays that way
genesis Zhangsun: until I stop
Gaya Ethaniel: I feel 'closed up' a bit in those time - 'denying true self'
Fefonz Quan: how do you deny your truer self? can you give an example?
sophia Placebo: can you explain your 2 selvs gen ?
Fefonz Quan: (i guess chocolate wont do that)
genesis Zhangsun: I guess its just about the small things v. the bigger picture of who I am
genesis Zhangsun: I can deny myself a lot of small things
genesis Zhangsun: chocolate etx
Gaya Ethaniel: lol did't know chocolate can cause such an impact.
genesis Zhangsun: *etc
genesis Zhangsun: but denying myself of who I really "am" in a big picture sense
Fefonz Quan: try 'hotel chocolate' in London Gaya :)
Gaya Ethaniel: oh heheheh
genesis Zhangsun: really hurts, small things you get over
Gaya Ethaniel: Don't you find gen in those times relationships/understanding others also suffer?
genesis Zhangsun: yeah you just feel very disconnected
genesis Zhangsun: and when I feel that I try reconnect
Gaya Ethaniel nods ...
genesis Zhangsun: *to reconnect
Gaya Ethaniel: That's why I said earlier, it *can* lead to hostility in sophia's statement.
genesis Zhangsun: we are musing about self and no self and denial of self as leading to hostility
genesis Zhangsun: (for Pema)
genesis Zhangsun: yes Gaya thats right
genesis Zhangsun: so I agree sophia
genesis Zhangsun: denial of the true self does lead to hostility :)
Pema Pera: you talked about addiction too: perhaps addiction is the double denial of the small self and the present -- trying to go back to what pleased the small self in the past
sophia Placebo: :)
Storm Nordwind suspects that in league table of things that lead to hostility, self denial is way down the list
sophia Placebo: whats on the top?
genesis Zhangsun: thats an interesting point Pema
Storm Nordwind: Good question. Could be many things sophia
Fefonz Quan: other denying you? (to sophia) :)
Gaya Ethaniel still thinking what Pema said ... brain going flat after Kant >.<
genesis Zhangsun: so do we eat chocolate to pleasr the small self- repeat some past experience of eating a chocolate and feel warm and fuzzy or do we eat chocolate for this moment because it is the natural thing to do
sophia Placebo: hmm fef , thats dosnt lead to that much amount untill you are confronted by others
genesis Zhangsun: I am going to disappear in 1 minute
Fefonz Quan: well if the other deny your freedom, rights to exist etc., it senough amount for most people
genesis Zhangsun: just had to let you all know
Gaya Ethaniel: Well time for bed then. Thanks for the conversation.
Gaya Ethaniel waves.
Fefonz Quan: night Gaya
Pema Pera: bye Gaya!
sophia Placebo: bye gaya
Storm Nordwind waves
genesis Zhangsun: night gaya
Fefonz Quan: i still wander about the other meaning - the denial of the existance of the self
Fefonz Quan: wonder*
sophia Placebo: what do you think fef?
Storm Nordwind: gen's battery has finally denied her access to the conversation
sophia Placebo: hehe
Fefonz Quan: or did she go to the Kira meeting?
Storm Nordwind has a meeting to go to
Storm Nordwind: No she ran out of power
Fefonz Quan: yep, me too.
Storm Nordwind: Please excuse me
Storm Nordwind: Namaste
sophia Placebo: bye storm , fef , pema
Pema Pera: good seeing you all, sorry to be so late -- just woke up :)
Fefonz Quan: bye Sophia
Fefonz Quan: , Pema