2009.06.24 19:00 - Labels and Categories

The Guardian for this meeting was stevenaia Michinaga. The comments are by stevenaia Michinaga.

Pila Mulligan: hi Steve
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Pila
stevenaia Michinaga: I am filing in for Sophia
stevenaia Michinaga: filling
Pila Mulligan: ahh, cool
stevenaia Michinaga: hope you weren't expecting her
Pila Mulligan: when I saw no one was here I was not sure what to expect
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, I was here sunday and no one was here for the hour
Pila Mulligan: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: you just never know
Pila Mulligan: ahh, spontaneity
stevenaia Michinaga: how have you been, volcano quiet down?
Pila Mulligan: yes, all is quiet on the western edge (of the US)
Pila Mulligan: North Korea is getting more publicity here actually
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, I heard, what an interesting rumor, how did that get started?
Pila Mulligan: from Japan
Pila Mulligan: maybe Pema :)
stevenaia Michinaga: grins
Pila Mulligan: someone in th japanese Defense Agency suggested it actually
Pila Mulligan: Japanese*
Pila Mulligan: as a maybe
Pila Mulligan: next thing you know newspaper headlines say North Korea Target Hawaii
stevenaia Michinaga: on the 4th
Pila Mulligan: hi Pema
Pema Pera: Hi Pila and Steve!
stevenaia Michinaga: maybe they are just celebrating
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Pema
Pila Mulligan: they have a holiday on the 6th I believe
Pila Mulligan: and the Great Leader may like fireworks
stevenaia Michinaga: apparently
Pila Mulligan:

[19:06] Pila Mulligan: North Korea is getting more publicity here actually
[19:06] stevenaia Michinaga: yes, I heard, what an interesting rumor, how did that get started?
[19:06] Pila Mulligan: from Japan
[19:07] Pila Mulligan: maybe Pema :)
Pila Mulligan: [19:07] Pila Mulligan: someone in th Japanese Defense Agency suggested it actually [19:07] Pila Mulligan: Japanese*
[19:07] Pila Mulligan: as a maybe
[19:07] Pila Mulligan: next thing you know newspaper headlines say North Korea Target Hawaii

Pila Mulligan: I don;t think many people take it seriously here though
stevenaia Michinaga: where in the world is Pema Pera?
Pema Pera: what was the rumor?
Pila Mulligan: North Korea will fire a ballistic missile at Hawaii early next month
Pema Pera: I'm in Kyoto, Japan, or at least my typist is :-)
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pema Pera: interesting idea, doubt they can aim that well though
Pila Mulligan: me too
stevenaia Michinaga: I think they may try for distance not accuracy
Pema Pera: they might hit the Japanese telescope at the highest mountain in Hawaii, that would be an interesting political twist
Pila Mulligan: there is some tension with the UN order to inspect suspected weapon transporting N Korean vessels
Pila Mulligan: remember the Pueblo
stevenaia Michinaga: it all seem like a waste in any case
Pila Mulligan: fluff and bluster mostly
Pila Mulligan: but that's what makes politics
Pila Mulligan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Pueblo_(AGER-2)
Pila Mulligan: the Pueblo was a US spy ship captured by North Korea a while back
stevenaia Michinaga: always amazed what has a wiki site
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: 40 years ago, but some people are still pissed off about it
Pila Mulligan: a relic of the cold war

Pila Mulligan: so Pema after yesterday I think it may be better to try to define metaphysical than to try to define non-physical, regarding Eliza's question (her question was 'is anything non-physical')
Pema Pera: :-)
Pema Pera: for me, categories are less interesting than descriptions of what we are actually dealing with
Pila Mulligan: yes, but you know how the science-meatphysics boundary often arises in doing so
Pema Pera: we can endlessly define new categories and discuss borderline cases, where they go
Pila Mulligan: I think quite a few of the experiences people describe here are borderline cases
Pila Mulligan: bordering metaphysics (as a vague term)
Pema Pera: I would say: if it is real, let's find out what it is and what we can do with it -- if it is not real, but a speculation or fantasy, it is more a question of psychology
stevenaia Michinaga: hmm, meatphysics, a new category
Pema Pera: everything that is real is also natural, I would say
Pema Pera: part of nature
Pema Pera: why make a distinction?
Pila Mulligan: yes, I agree with the psychology relationship, and metaphysic may make a nice category, being part of history and human nature
Pema Pera: of course there may be many things that are real that are not yet acknowledged by science
stevenaia Michinaga: when was that log Pila?
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: the log,Steve -- I was thinking future instead of past
Pema Pera: I would be happy to drop metaphysics as a category
Pila Mulligan: is it a category?
Pila Mulligan: already
Pema Pera: and say : some parts of physics have been discovered yet, some parts not yet
stevenaia Michinaga: aww
Pila Mulligan: metaphysics has been around a long time, it used to be science
Pema Pera: but I won't quibble with others using other categories, as long as we know what we are talking about
Pila Mulligan: before science became what it is
Pila Mulligan: traditional views of nature may be close
stevenaia Michinaga: which traditions
stevenaia Michinaga: pre modern?
Pila Mulligan: yes
Pila Mulligan: most cultures have well-developed sciences that predate modern times
Pila Mulligan: quite complex and evolved too
stevenaia Michinaga: so "science" is just another in a line
Pila Mulligan: well, it is the end point, so far
Pila Mulligan: but it had predecessors and will no doubt have successors
stevenaia Michinaga: the latest view always seems that way
Pila Mulligan: fashion
Pema Pera: again, it depends what you want to call "science" -- the word is a label and category, and you can decide to use it only for modern science, the last five hundred years, or you can use it for all experience-based systems of knowledge -- it's just a category, and as such uninteresting
Pema Pera: unless you want to use the category for political purposes
Pema Pera: to argue that other cultures are equally good as ours in some way
Pema Pera: but I prefer to argue that directly
Pema Pera: rather than through the use of categories :-)
Pila Mulligan: well, maybe the part I am interested in the ths sulling of reality from the various parts and phases
Pila Mulligan: culling*
Pema Pera: clearly, it is true that many other traditions have something that is like science, in being experience based, and equally clearly they don't have the systematic mathematical approach that science has -- both are clear, and it's anyone's pick what label or category to use for the word "science"
Pila Mulligan: yes, for sure
Pila Mulligan: empiricism is an old art
Pila Mulligan: proof is a new art maybe
stevenaia Michinaga: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empiricism
Pema Pera: universality is very interesting, in that science transcends traditions and cultures . . . .
Pema Pera: so far I don't think any tradition or religion quite does that
Pema Pera: Buddhism may come closest, but is still mired in debates between sects
Pema Pera: THE hall mark of science is that differences are welcomed and then sorted out
Pema Pera: science does not form schools that fight each other forever
Pema Pera: they want to reach agreement, and typically within a few decades succeed in doing so
Pema Pera: inconceivable to have an "Einsteinian School of Science" and a "Newtonian School of Science" -- like Theravada and Mahayana. For me that is a HUGE difference between modern science and ANY other approach, traditional or not. In fact, when I say that PaB has a scientific angle to it, I mean exactly that universalism, that we don't form/stress different sects, fortunately!!!

Paradise Tennant joins us

Pila Mulligan: hi Paradise
Pema Pera: Hi Paradise!
Pema Pera: Good seeing you again!
Paradise Tennant: hi pila pema steve :)))
Paradise Tennant: good to be here :)
Pila Mulligan: Pab has the Pema Trying to Capture Stim Sect
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Paradise
Pema Pera: hehehe
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pema Pera: Stim and I see eye to eye on anything important
Pila Mulligan: Slippery Stims Escapes Sect
Paradise Tennant: ?
Pema Pera: though we may emphasize things in different words, within three sentences we are back on the same place again
Pila Mulligan: but you are cof course rights about the universal aspect of science, for the time being anyway
Pema Pera: I am more willing to approximate
Pema Pera: he prefers to always be precise
Pila Mulligan: Stim is more cautious
Pema Pera: yes
Pila Mulligan: but he lacks your enthusiasm
Pila Mulligan: it seems
Pema Pera: oh, he has it, at least as much as I do, but it is hidden
Pila Mulligan: he has yet to show his poetry
Pema Pera: he expresses it in ways that don't get through the filter of SL
Pema Pera: or most of RL for that matter
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pema Pera: if you would come to the retreat, you would see it
Pila Mulligan: Stim the Inscrutable?
Pema Pera: when you ask him in the right way about the nature of reality
Pema Pera: but only if you do that in a really serious way -- the flippant approach here is not a good match for his nature
Pema Pera: while I'm quite happy with that :-)
Pila Mulligan: Eos mentioned something interesting yesterday

Pila Mulligan: he is setting up something for a Shambala conference being organized by his wife
Pila Mulligan: one thing he is setting up is a conference mixing RL, SL and that internet telephone service I cannot remember
Pema Pera: Skype
Pila Mulligan: RL + SL + conference call
Pila Mulligan: yes, thank you -- Skype
Paradise Tennant: cool
Pila Mulligan: isn;t that interesting
Pila Mulligan: maybe it could be done with the PaB Retreat
Pema Pera: I would prefer to keep the PaB RL retreat focused as much as possible
Pema Pera: we only have three fully days, five in total with coming and going
Pila Mulligan: yes, I was thinking just for an hour or so, for those of us waiting for it to get a feel and say hi
Pema Pera: the big challenge will be to dive deeply into reality
Pila Mulligan: but I appreciate your view on the need to be there
Pema Pera: this is our first retreat, afterwards we can plan longer and more diverse events
Pema Pera: as many as we like, in different places and with different formats
Pema Pera: But it's a neat idea, for later, I agree, thanks!

Paradise Tennant: the retreat is in august is it not in california ?
Pila Mulligan: plus we do not yet have Eos reporting his experience with it
Pila Mulligan: the conference idea, that is
Pema Pera: yes, Paradise
Pema Pera: are you interested in attending?
Pema Pera: August 18-24
Pema Pera: oops, wrong
Paradise Tennant: could be an option
Paradise Tennant: have lots of company coming in july .. will see .. when is the deadline for registration ?
Pema Pera: August 14-28 it is
Paradise Tennant: kk
Pema Pera: August 24-28 it is
stevenaia Michinaga: will there be a posting to the wiki from the retreat, pema?
Pema Pera: so many typos
Pema Pera: REPEAT: 24-28 August
Paradise Tennant: ;))
Pila Mulligan: SL is a typo
Pema Pera: not from the retreat I think, Steve
Pema Pera: again that would be a distraction
Pema Pera: I really want everybody to focus fully on presence
Pema Pera: there and then with the group
Pema Pera: at the land
Pema Pera: in the place
Pema Pera: no cyber stuff ! ! !
Paradise Tennant: in the moment
Pema Pera: ideally no email and cell phones . . . .
Pema Pera: but that will be hard to ask :-)
Pila Mulligan: or televisions :)
Pema Pera: Hi Maggie!
Pema Pera: How nice to see you again!!
Pila Mulligan: that alone could generate a few epiphanies
Pema Pera: yes

Paradise Tennant: hi maggie
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Maggie
Pila Mulligan: hi Magdalena
Magdalena Colclough: hi :)
Magdalena Colclough: this is Max
Pila Mulligan: hi Max
Magdalena Colclough: he's my guide dog
Paradise Tennant: he is lovely
stevenaia Michinaga: he may be the first to drink from the fountain
Magdalena Colclough grins
Pema Pera: :-)
Pema Pera: How have you been, Maggie?
Magdalena Colclough: I've been good. How about all of you?
Paradise Tennant: very well thanks
Magdalena Colclough smiles
Pema Pera is always bemused about American greetings -- :-)
Pila Mulligan: the idea of using Skype or a free conference call combined with SL actually would be a blessing for those of us without the bandwidth capacity for voice at Kira events
Pema Pera: the first time somebody asked me "how are you" I actually gave a long answer!
Pila Mulligan: especially land line + SL
Paradise Tennant: :))
Magdalena Colclough grins
Magdalena Colclough: I like the long answers
Paradise Tennant: me too
Pema Pera: but we never do . . .
Pema Pera: most of the time, that is
Pema Pera: like today :-)
Pila Mulligan: it is a formal routine, usually
Pema Pera: yes, a longer form of "hi!"
Magdalena Colclough: well, let's make a pact - if any of the four of us ask another of the four, we'll give the REAL answer
Pema Pera: how are you, Maggie?
Magdalena Colclough: five of us, sorry
Pila Mulligan: six actually, with Max
Pema Pera: How is Max>
Magdalena Colclough grins
Magdalena Colclough: Max and I are very intrigued by a "Vision Quest" we are on
Pila Mulligan: oh?
Pila Mulligan: how is the vision quest?
Paradise Tennant: :))
Magdalena Colclough: exploring possibilities for SL for those who have visual disabilities
Pema Pera: fascinating!
stevenaia Michinaga: how long have you had Max?
Paradise Tennant: ;)))
Pema Pera: it would be great to have a viewer using braille!
Magdalena Colclough: an hour or two
Pila Mulligan: hmm, with text-voice translation?
Magdalena Colclough: yes
Pila Mulligan: SL is probably full of real potential there
Magdalena Colclough: someone just gave me a HUD with a better text to speech reader than the one that comes with Max
Magdalena Colclough: but Max lets you find things
Paradise Tennant: sl is full of wonderful music .. there is a diverse richness here for sight and sound
Pila Mulligan: Max speaks?
Magdalena Colclough: like typing "/2 find stevenaia"
Pila Mulligan: cool
Paradise Tennant: cool
Magdalena Colclough: well, no, it just reads the chat text
Magdalena Colclough: How are you, Pema?
Pema Pera: can you demo finding Stevenaia?
Paradise Tennant: ;))
Pema Pera: show us?
Magdalena Colclough: sure
Pila Mulligan: oops -- Max!
Pema Pera: I'm fine, Maggie, in Japan right now, have to go to a seminar in three minutes
Pema Pera: wow, how nice!
stevenaia Michinaga: well perhaps I am not here
Magdalena Colclough smiles
Pema Pera: I'm visiting Kyoto, it is almost noon here
Pila Mulligan: can Max find an empty cushion?
Magdalena Colclough: ah, did you have a nice breakfast?
Pila Mulligan: an important visual act
Magdalena Colclough: he can tell me what's around
Pila Mulligan: have a nice afternoon in Kyoto Pema-san
Magdalena Colclough: but not whether it's empty, I think
Pema Pera: sure did, traditional Japanese (breakfast)
Paradise Tennant: ;)) enjoy the seminar :)
Pema Pera: interesting question Pila!
Pila Mulligan: a nice add-on for the scripter -- to avoid sitting on steve, for example
Pema Pera: would be a great addition!
Pema Pera: (empty cushion finder)
Magdalena Colclough nods!
stevenaia Michinaga: bye pema
Pila Mulligan: bye Pema
Pema Pera: off to my seminar -- see you all soon again!
Magdalena Colclough: be well, Pema
Paradise Tennant: be well .. :)) pema
Pema Pera: and bye Max!
Pila Mulligan: i tried using a text only SL client for a while and finding a seat in an chat session was difficult
Paradise Tennant: :)) well I think I will say good night too. I have been waking very early these days.. so should be off to bed .. big wave from toronto :))
Magdalena Colclough: lol
Pila Mulligan: bye bye PAradise, sleep well
Magdalena Colclough: sleep well, Paradise
Pila Mulligan: Hey!
Paradise Tennant: thanks maggie and you .. max . good boy!
Paradise Tennant: nite nite pila steve
stevenaia Michinaga: night
stevenaia Michinaga: oops
Pila Mulligan: the most genuine appreciation of SL I've seen so far was from a disabled woman saying how thrilled she was to avi-dance with her SL husband in SL
Pila Mulligan: her RL husband
Pila Mulligan: dancing in SL -- sorry
Magdalena Colclough nods
Pila Mulligan: even as an animation, it meant a lot to her
stevenaia Michinaga: reminds me of the star trek episode were captain Pike was in a wheelchair except when his mind was controlled by aliens, then he walked (in his mind)
Magdalena Colclough nods
stevenaia Michinaga: so SL is the aliens here
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
Magdalena Colclough smiles
stevenaia Michinaga: well I must go long days ahead
Magdalena Colclough: goodnight, Steven
Pila Mulligan: bye steve -- see you next time
stevenaia Michinaga: I will be here sunday :)
Magdalena Colclough: I need to head back to my quest as well
Pila Mulligan: nice to see you Maggier and Max
Pila Mulligan: bye
Magdalena Colclough: bye, Pila