2009.10.01 13:00 - Modest advice

The Guardian for this meeting was Storm Nordwind. The comments are by Storm Nordwind.

This session covered many topics, and it was hard to choose a title. I decided to forget about it and go with a modest one!

--BELL--
Pema Pera: Hi Paul!
Paul Namiboo: Hi folks
Pema Pera: and hi again Storm and Cal!
Pema Pera: hi again Fael!
Paul Namiboo: I'm in my spin-dry cycle for a trip and thought I'd drop by for a minute or two of relaxation
Fael Illyar: Hi again, Pema, Storm :) Hi Paul :)
Paul Namiboo: Hi Fael
Storm Nordwind: Hi there Widget!
Widget Whiteberry: greetings
Pema Pera: hi Widget!
Fael Illyar: Hi Widget, Bertram :)
Bertram Jacobus: hi everybody ... :-)
Widget Whiteberry: ☆smiles☆
Pema Pera: hi Bert!
Paul Namiboo: :)
Bertram Jacobus: ups. sry. slow rezzing here ... ;-)
Storm Nordwind: Mike open Pema!
Pema Pera: (I'll be away for two minutes, getting some tea and cookies while they last -- sorry, thanks, Storm
Pema Pera: (back soon)
Fael Illyar remembers the nice times with the tea and cookies.
Bertram Jacobus: where was that fael ? :-)
Fael Illyar: IAS, Princeton :)
Bertram Jacobus: nice ... :-)
Storm Nordwind: A teacher once said to me that we are human beings, not human eatings. I think he was eyeing my paunch when he said that!
Fael Illyar: :D
Bertram Jacobus: tz tz tz ... ;o)
Fael Illyar: Very good cookies there :)
Paul Namiboo: No I'm getting tempted and I had a great chocolate/chocolate for lunch!
Pema Pera: (back)
Fael Illyar: wb :)
Paul Namiboo: No + now
Storm Nordwind: Well that's all the more reason to do Play as Being practice! To get a good perspective on where cookies fit in to what's really important! :D

Bertram brings up an interesting topic, but for the first minutes we are still engrossed in snack-talk!

Bertram Jacobus: yesterday i had a great insight : i could accept that suffering - as all - is unlimited ... :-)
Fael Illyar: I just ate some rye bread with sausage and fried eggs on it :)
Pema Pera: yes, Fael, and Storm will get to taste the cookies in a few weeks when he visits Princeton
Fael Illyar smiles 'Look forward to it, Storm.'
Storm Nordwind: Bertram... would you like to expand on your insight? :)
Pema Pera: sorry, Bert, could you tell us more about that?
Fael Illyar: mmm... cookies:)

Then we get talking about it: ego and separation.

Bertram Jacobus: yes. sure. before i always had problems with that. because so i thought, no end of suffering would be possible ... but then i saw, that when one gets rid of the ego - thats a solution
Fael Illyar: what would it mean to get rid of the ego?
Bertram Jacobus: and my impression is, that ego comes up only in this life, at a certain age. don´t know when exactly. but little children or babies seem not to have it yet. so one can get rid of it again, too
Storm Nordwind remembers we mentioned something a little like this last week.
Paul Namiboo: Got to go -- duty calls, but thanks for the relaxation. Bye:)
Bertram Jacobus: to overcome it. to get part of all again. without hindrances. the wu wei state
Fael Illyar: Have fun Paul :)
Storm Nordwind: Bye Paul
Storm Nordwind waves
Pema Pera: bye Paul!
Bertram Jacobus: bye paul
Fael Illyar: Would Ego, as in your thoughts, be the separation of self and other?
Bertram Jacobus: i don´t make such a big difference between ego and self
Bertram Jacobus: and so in my understanding - yes, ego as well as self makes this difference
Bertram Jacobus: this separation (sry)
Bertram Jacobus: but i think, correct is the following : there is seperation as well as no seperation. relative and absolute sight or state
--BELL--
Fael Illyar: it exists but is impermanent
Bertram Jacobus: yes. aspects of the relative field ...
Storm Nordwind: Do you find, bert, that Play as Being practice is helpful to your realizing this?
Bertram Jacobus: ah
Bertram Jacobus: may be yes :-)
Storm Nordwind smiles
Bertram Jacobus: and storm ? what did you mention last week ?
Fael Illyar: Hi Yak :)
Bertram Jacobus: hello yaku :-)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
Pema Pera: Hi Yaku!
Yakuzza Lethecus: hello aidan
Fael Illyar: Hi Aidan, Ara :)
Pema Pera: Hi Arabella, and hi Aidan!
Bertram Jacobus: hey aida and ara :-)
Yakuzza Lethecus: and ara
Yakuzza Lethecus: and ara
Aidan Spiritor: hello
arabella Ella: Hiya!
Storm Nordwind: Last week, Bert, I briefly mentioned the Buddhist idea of emptiness. And that if the apparent cause of the suffering and its recipient and the suffering itself were empty then it can help with patient acceptance.
Storm Nordwind: Hi there Yak , ara and Aidan
Bertram Jacobus: oh i see. thanks for the information storm !

Can Play as Being help us find reality just by making us stop?

Storm Nordwind: I like Play as Being's insistent reminder! Every 15 minutes I can be reminded to check what's really important, what's really real... all these things. Poking holes in illusion every 15 minutes! :)
Bertram Jacobus: for sake i´m not so disciplined ...
Bertram Jacobus: but the idea of this ultrashort meditations already is a great help
Storm Nordwind points out he said "can be" reminded, not always is! He is not always so disciplined either!
Bertram Jacobus: also when one does it only not regulary i think
Aidan Spiritor: nice to meet you too
Fael Illyar: I found that the bell sound, in itself, even without really noticing it was having an effect too.
Fael Illyar: after a long time of hearing it and doing the pauses
Storm Nordwind nods to Fael
Aidan Spiritor: I found your profile very interesting--as a former theoretical chemist and mathemarician
Fael Illyar: but it was an effect that didn't interrupt anything
Bertram Jacobus: sounds like a nice experience fael ... :-)
Storm Nordwind: It's a small ritual, at the very least. My wife and I were studying a practice that involves some ritual actions, words and thoughts, and she questioned whether the rituals were useful. But I said, "What else would you be doing instead of the ritual?" :)
arabella Ella: I feel that quite a few of us need to be more disciplined Bert :)
Bertram Jacobus: hehe ara. need we ? ;-)
arabella Ella: speaking for myself, a big YES
Fael Illyar: Hello Gaya :)
Pema Pera: Aidan, nice meeting you here; I just read your RL profile, you're leading an interesting life!
Fael Illyar: Hi Mick :)
Pema Pera: Hi Gaya and Mick!
Storm Nordwind: Hi Mick, Gaya
arabella Ella: Hiya Gaya Mick
Mickorod Renard: hiya
Bertram Jacobus: smile ... my conviction is, that every practise is good. more - better, for sure ... ;-)
Gaya Serendipity: Hello :)
arabella Ella: oh definitely yes
Bertram Jacobus: hey gaya and mick ! ... :-)
Fael Illyar: oh, new alt?
Gaya Serendipity: Yeah ... SL is spamming my account. Lindens told me they don't have developers available to deal with it for now.
...
Storm Nordwind: Sorry to hear that Gaya
Fael Illyar: ouch
Gaya Serendipity: Anyhow, sorry for being late and interrupting >.<

Discipline, practice and the possibility of perfection.

Bertram Jacobus: so disciplin "only" makes that we practise more may be ara ? or also in every mood --BELL--
Storm Nordwind: It's true that discipline means practising. But I believe it's wrong to think that Practice makes Perfect. I think instead that only Perfect Practice makes Perfect!
Gaya Serendipity grins.
arabella Ella: not sure what your question means Bert?
Bertram Jacobus: that discipline is not the only way to reach enlightenment ara ...
Fael Illyar would prefer "practise makes a master".
Bertram Jacobus: what is the difference between practise and perfect practise for you storm ? ... :-)
arabella Ella: i dont think i am well versed enough to reply to that Bert
Storm Nordwind: Perfect practice is what is appropriate for a particular person at the time with nothing inappropriate.
arabella Ella: perhaps it also involves what Socrates had said ... know yourself?
Bertram Jacobus: yes : to know does not seem to be a hindrance to me ... ;-)
Pema Pera: hi Bolonath
Fael Illyar listened yesterday to Weird Al Yankovic - Everything You Know is Wrong.

What is illusion?

Bertram Jacobus: but storm - may i ask some question to some words from you before ? : what does "illusion" mean to you please ?
Bolonath Crystal: namaste @ all :)
Gaya Serendipity: Hello Bolonath :)
Mickorod Renard: hi Bol
Fael Illyar: Hello Bolonath :)
Storm Nordwind: Hello Bolonath
Bertram Jacobus: hey bolonath ! :-)
arabella Ella: Hiya Bolonath
Bertram Jacobus: fael - same topic : from a "absolute state" that all may be called "wrong" - from a relative one that is not necessairily so i think -
Mickorod Renard: I am anoyed I wont get to sit in on the Phenemology sessions
Storm Nordwind: Illusion, Bert, means anything that is not real to me, or something that appears real but on deeper examination holds no reality, or something that prevents me from seeing reality.
Storm Nordwind loves Weird Al :)
Fael Illyar: Bertram, I think the key in the sentence is that if you take something to be certain, it's wrong. It's not knowing without being certain :)
Aidan Spiritor: such as the illusion of a self in the conventional sense?
Bertram Jacobus: you have an example for something which seems not to be real when one examimes it storm ?
Fael Illyar smiles.
Gaya Serendipity: @.@ ... reads what Fael said again ...
Bertram Jacobus: smiles at fael ... :-)
Aidan Spiritor: reflection in a mirror but is not "a real face"
Storm Nordwind: That might be the case Aidan. I am refering specifically to how a very short but very regular meditation sessions can help one with mindfulness
Pema Pera: I'd love to hear from Aidan about his interests in philosophy and comparative religion (re: his RL profile part)
Aidan Spiritor: seems real ..but is not..
Fael Illyar: (more accurately, the certainty is what's wrong about it)
Storm Nordwind agrees with Pema :)
Fael Illyar: not necessarily anything else.
Bertram Jacobus: nice example aidan ...
Aidan Spiritor: Mostly currently interested in buddhism currently
Aidan Spiritor: do not consider myself a buddhist

Fael tells of a visit to Diamondway.

Fael Illyar visited the local Diamondway Buddhist Center today.
Bertram Jacobus: where is that fael ?
Aidan Spiritor: How was that for you?
Gaya Serendipity: How was it?
Aidan Spiritor: yes
Fael Illyar: Turku, Finland
Bertram Jacobus: ah
Fael Illyar: I'm most likely going again tomorrow :)
Gaya Serendipity: :)
Storm Nordwind: Diamondway is Kagyu?
Fael Illyar: yes
Bertram Jacobus: ole nydahls centres ...
Fael Illyar: Yes
Aidan Spiritor: are you all regulars here?
Fael Illyar: They were having a planning meeting for Ole Nydahl's visit to Turku in 2 weeks
Bertram Jacobus: whaow
Pema Pera: yes, Aidan
Aidan Spiritor: thx
Bertram Jacobus: i´m often here aidan
Fael Illyar: more or less regulars most of us :)
Aidan Spiritor: thanks for including me in your discussion today
arabella Ella: yes most of us are regulars
Gaya Serendipity: Welcome Aidan :)
arabella Ella: actually all of us are regulars :)
Pema Pera: and we have a mix of people, half of them Buddhists I guess, half of them all kind of different other backgrounds
Bertram Jacobus: you are more then welcome aidan ! :-)
Storm Nordwind: You are always most welcome Aidan :)
--BELL--
Fael Illyar: I spent most of the time after the meditation (during the planning meeting) reading Ole Nydahl's book "The Way Things Are".
Storm Nordwind: How do you find it Fael?
Fael Illyar: I like it
Fael Illyar: I read 58 pages out of around 100 in 3 hours
Pema Pera: besides talking about Buddhism sometimes, Aidan, we have had interesting discussions about prayer, between a Christian Franciscan and a Sunni Muslim, for example -- and we often talk about Taoism, or other traditions
Aidan Spiritor: That would be interesting..
Fael Illyar: not sure how but somehow managed to listen to the planning meeting while reading it too :)
Bertram Jacobus: i read some books from the diamondway too fael ... also this one ...
Pema Pera: (the prayer session was logged here: http://playasbeing.wik.is/index.php?...ghlight=prayer)
Fael Illyar smiles.

Criticism - and how what it's often really a measure of!

Bertram Jacobus: but some people critisize ole ... big discussions about him now and then ... ;-)
Storm Nordwind: It often seems when someone tries to help others, they get criticism from some quarter or another. The same is true with my teacher.
Fael Illyar: not possible to find someone who someone doesn't criticise :)
Bertram Jacobus: who is it storm, please ?
Storm Nordwind: My teacher is Geshe Kelsang Gyatso
Bolonath Crystal: oh :)
Bertram Jacobus: ah new kadampa ...
Bolonath Crystal: i visited our local nkt-center quite often
Bolonath Crystal: but never met geshe-la himself
Storm Nordwind: And it applies to the new president of the United States too, to take a more mundane example
Bertram Jacobus: lol. yes
Storm Nordwind nods to Bolonath
Pema Pera: :)
Bertram Jacobus: but about some persons there are more discussions and about others less. unless they are famous or not ;-)
Aidan Spiritor: If the motivation is correct the criticism is not so important
Storm Nordwind: The heat and amount of discussion, Bert, does not seem to bear any relation to where that person is worthy of criticism though! :)
Fael Illyar: Hi Ari :)
arabella Ella: well isnt there always some sort of jealousy of famous people due to their success?
arabella Ella: or successful people
Storm Nordwind: Quite so Aidan!
Bertram Jacobus: hey ari ... :-)
Mickorod Renard: Hi Arisia
Arisia Vita: Hi all
Gaya Serendipity: Hello Arisia :)
arabella Ella: Hiya Ari
Pema Pera: hi Ari!
Storm Nordwind: Very possibily ara, certainly in some cases
Aidan Spiritor: hello Arisia

Motivation, authenticity and intention.

Bertram Jacobus: motivation is a wonderful angle !
Storm Nordwind: Hi Ari!
Gaya Serendipity: Well known people often provide convenient platforms to start discussions.
Gaya Serendipity: As in topic ... etc.
Aidan Spiritor: If it is pure and you are authentic the criticism is less important.
Gaya Serendipity: And it is easy to hide behind them.
Mickorod Renard: thats true Aidan
Storm Nordwind finds he cannot know other people's motivations. It's often difficult to be honest enough to find out his own!
Aidan Spiritor: Do we feel that Obama is authentic?
Bertram Jacobus: but it´s a wonderful angle storm ! isn´t it ? ;-)
arabella Ella: that could be another example Storm of thinking something is real when it is not ... knowing motivation ... own and others

Gaya picks me up on something I just said.

Gaya Serendipity: Storm ... all these experienced people at PaB say the same thing. It just isn't encouraging!
Mickorod Renard: I wouldnt like to make a judgement on Obama..I dont know much about him
Storm Nordwind: I find it important to try an purify my intentions.
Bertram Jacobus: i feel yes. may be not with all, but at least not only a bit aidan -
Aidan Spiritor: based upon his public persona
Storm Nordwind: Sorry Gaya? What's that?
Gaya Serendipity: You have practised for a long time yes? Still find it difficult to be honest you say.
Storm Nordwind: perhaps I am being modest Gaya ;)

Modesty is a virtue, praised and exemplified by the greatest. The great teacher Atisha, in Advice from Atisha's heart, starts by saying, "Friends, since you already have great knowledge and clear understanding, whereas I am of no importance and have little wisdom, it is not suitable for you to request advice from me. However because you dear friends, whom I cherish from my heart, have requested me, I shall give you this essential advice from my inferior and childish mind."

Gaya Serendipity: ah :)
Mickorod Renard: I find there is so much facade, that I now stop trying to see through it but i try and circumnavigate it, or ignor it
Storm Nordwind chuckles
Pema Pera: some of the greatest practitioners in Medieval Christianity as well as Tibetan Buddhism, to mention just two, have said the same, Gaya
Aidan Spiritor: complete honesty is very difficult
Fael Illyar: Hi Fef :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey fef
Mickorod Renard: Hi Fef
arabella Ella: Hiya Fefonz
Gaya Serendipity nods ... :)
Pema Pera: hi Fef!
Storm Nordwind waves
Yakuzza Lethecus: ok, i swap over to the wok session
Bolonath Crystal: hallo fef
Fefonz Quan: Hello all!
Bertram Jacobus: hello fef ... :-)
Gaya Serendipity: Hello Fefonz :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye for now everyone
Bertram Jacobus: bye yaku ...
Bolonath Crystal: bye yaku

Time to remind people of an event about to happen...

Storm Nordwind would like to remind people of Ways of Knowing, starting now in the Kira Cafe!
Aidan Spiritor: bye
Fael Illyar: Bye Yak :)
arabella Ella: oh yes WoK is on now
arabella Ella: must go too
Gaya Serendipity: Yes time to move too. Nice to see you everyone. Thanks for keeping us encouraged Storm and Pema!
arabella Ella: bye all

Pema gives a reference to more modest "advice", this time a more recent example.

Pema Pera: Gaya, here is a Tibetan example, Patrul Rinpoche, one of the greatest practitioners in Tibet of the last century: http://www.sealevel.ns.ca/patrul/
Bertram Jacobus: bye ara ...
Pema Pera: bye Ara!
--BELL--
Bertram Jacobus: [bye gaya] ...
Fefonz Quan: of to Wok too, bye all :)
Mickorod Renard: ok,,Its Wok time
Fefonz Quan: lets WoK ;-)
Mickorod Renard: c u everyone
Pema Pera: bye everybody
Storm Nordwind: Whoosh... there are many departures!
Aidan Spiritor: bye everybody
Storm Nordwind waves
Bertram Jacobus: i never was at a kira group ....
Fael Illyar: See you later everyone :)
Fael Illyar: Thank you for the nice meeting :)
Bertram Jacobus: bye fael
Storm Nordwind: Never too late to start Bert!
Bolonath Crystal: bye fael
Bertram Jacobus: hehe storm :-)
Arisia Vita: bye all
Bertram Jacobus: bye ari

Bert was curious about Stim Morane's Ways of Knowing workshop that was starting now (Thursdays at 2pm SLT in the Kira Cafe).

Bertram Jacobus: you don´t take part in that group storm ? :-)
Storm Nordwind: Well I have lost continuity with it. It's good but I am often here with people at the end of my guardian slot
Bertram Jacobus: ah. i see :-)
Bertram Jacobus: what do they do there ? :-)
Storm Nordwind: There is only one way to find out Bert!!
Bertram Jacobus: hehe. okay
Bertram Jacobus: but ... i always believe in many ways (!?) ;-)
Storm Nordwind chuckles
Bertram Jacobus: :-))
Bertram Jacobus: "okay" - then i´ll leave too. tyvm for the nice meeting ! ...
Storm Nordwind: Great. See you again Bert!
Bolonath Crystal: bye bert
Bertram Jacobus: bye storm and bolonath :-)
Bolonath Crystal: and bye storm. i'm leaving, too
Storm Nordwind: Bye Bolonath. Please call in again some time
Bolonath Crystal: ty, i will :)
Storm Nordwind: Namaste