2009.10.03 19:00 - Long Lasting Ripples

The Guardian for this meeting was Pema Pera. The comments are by Pema Pera.

doug Sosa: hi tar.
Tarmel Udimo: Hi Doug, how's things?
doug Sosa: great hat.
Tarmel Udimo: tks:)
doug Sosa: things are ok, its the people i worry about :)
Tarmel Udimo: nods
Pema Pera: Hi Doug and Tarmel!
doug Sosa: hi pema.
Tarmel Udimo: Hi there Pema
doug Sosa: your hair is longer?
Tarmel Udimo: Hi Eos:)
Pema Pera: Hi Eos!
Tarmel Udimo: Pema's hair?
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Tarmel! Hi Pema! Hi Doug!
doug Sosa: yes..
Tarmel Udimo: So are you back home Pema?
doug Sosa: eos :)
Pema Pera: my hair hasn't changed in the last year . . . .
Pema Pera: yes, back in New York, for a change :)
Tarmel Udimo: nice
doug Sosa: hm, it is hitting the bak of your shirt differently.
Pema Pera: perhaps SL is getting smaller?
doug Sosa: more crowded.
Eos Amaterasu notices Tarmel's dragon pet

Pema Pera: the wicked witch of Oz?
Tarmel Udimo: perhaps:)
stevenaia Michinaga: better rezz a bit more
Pema Pera: Hi rezzing Steve!
stevenaia Michinaga: didn;t mean to sit on you eos
Tarmel Udimo: Hi Steve
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Doug, Pema, Tarmel
doug Sosa: :)
Tarmel Udimo: So....
Tarmel Udimo: Things sure seem different aftre the retreat.. anyone else notice that?
Pema Pera: oh yes, very much so for me
Pema Pera: it really helped to deepen my own involvement with PaB
Tarmel Udimo: yes?
Eos Amaterasu: I've found that it's been an experience with long lasting ripples
Pema Pera: made the whole thing even more concrete
Pema Pera: yes, well put Eos, for me too
Tarmel Udimo: yes Eos me tooo
Pema Pera: hehehe, group think
Tarmel Udimo: grins
Pema Pera: well, Steve, you'll get your chance in a month!
Pema Pera: in Princeton
Tarmel Udimo: its like so much has dropped away
Pema Pera: can you say more about that, Tarmel?
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, I will be happy to join you at a minimum for the better part of Saturday
Pema Pera: great, Steve!
Eos Amaterasu: cool!
Tarmel Udimo: yes you must Steve the RL expereince is very different
Pema Pera: Doug, we'll have a four day, three nights, two full days retreat in Princeton, the first weekend of November
stevenaia Michinaga: yes
Pema Pera: yes indeed
stevenaia Michinaga: it;s a lovely experience
Tarmel Udimo: well, its like I am still trying to figure it out
doug Sosa: again sorry i can't make it. in this case costs plus other commitments.

Tarmel Udimo: but its like all my parts have come together and I am no longer in need of reassurance about Being
Pema Pera: too bad we dont' have a tp in RL, Doug
stevenaia Michinaga: Princeton is just a bit closer than Malta
Tarmel Udimo: that would be great pema
Pema Pera: wow, Tarmel, glad to hear that!
Pema Pera: can you say (even) more?
stevenaia Michinaga: Droping doubts, Tarmel?
Eos Amaterasu: I am also wowed by that, Tarmel!
Tarmel Udimo: yes well you did kind of ZAP me Pema:)
doug Sosa: Inhawaii week before till 3rd.
Pema Pera: Hawaii is on our list for RL retreats, Doug, in July perhaps
Pema Pera: you mean, walking back from the restaurant, Tarmel?
--BELL--
Tarmel Udimo: well yes that as well as the whole retreat of course but mainly then... oral transmission of some kind:)
Pema Pera: do you want to describe what happened?
Tarmel Udimo: Well essentially Pema joined myself, Corvi and Fefonz for a final bite in Berkely?
Tarmel Udimo: and then walked with us to the station.
Tarmel Udimo: During that walk Pema basically bombarded me with the need to 'wake' up
Tarmel Udimo: That was it really quite a simple everyday activity... but coupled with the retreat I think something shifted...
Tarmel Udimo: What about you Eos, you mentioned ripples?
Pema Pera: I basically asked Tarmel when she wanted to "wake up", pointing out that it couldn't possibly take time :-)
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
Eos Amaterasu: The RL retreat was more meaningful and lasting than anticipated - I mean, was kind of an experiment
Tarmel Udimo: :)
Tarmel Udimo: nods
Eos Amaterasu: and the retreat time itself had a kind of vividness
Tarmel Udimo: nods
Eos Amaterasu: but I keep noticing/encountering that just doing this, whether 9secs or 90 or random or longer, whenever,
Eos Amaterasu: actually "works" - it's just enough, and it keeps disclosing more
Eos Amaterasu: it's also affected the cross SL/RL boundary
Pema Pera: yes, it grows on itself, doesn't it
doug Sosa: part of the 9 sec seems to me that one can experience one is is in it because there is not in it experience at both ends. whereas
doug Sosa: i normal meditation the "in it" is so long that the contrast is not so evident.
Pema Pera: interesting point, Doug!
Tarmel Udimo: not sure if I got it?
Eos Amaterasu: also done in little dots it can become or be more normal
Pema Pera: second nature, yes
Pema Pera: like breathing almost
doug Sosa: its like if a vacation were a year long, he contrast between vacation and not vaction would dissapear from consciousness.
Pema Pera: Tarmel, Doug pointed to the transitions, in and out of the 9 seconds
Tarmel Udimo: OK
Pema Pera: whereas transitions in and out of half an hour of meditation are less frequent
doug Sosa: and less clear.
Tarmel Udimo: nods

Pema Pera: for me an important effect of the retreat has been that it somehow produced a much stronger connection between the 9-sec practice and my normal practice that I was already engaged in
Tarmel Udimo: yes?
doug Sosa: we are talking of the santa cruz retreat?
Tarmel Udimo: in what way?
Pema Pera: yes
Pema Pera: integrating more my regular daily practice into a momen-to-moment sense during the day
Tarmel Udimo: nods
doug Sosa: i need to go at the bell.
Pema Pera: (as I told *you* to do, I guess it backfired!!)
--BELL--
stevenaia Michinaga: enjoy dinner
Tarmel Udimo: hehe
Pema Pera: (be carefull what you wish to others, hehe)
Tarmel Udimo: well I am glad it backfired if that was the case:)
Pema Pera: :)
Tarmel Udimo: its strange it feels less about practice and more about just being present
Pema Pera: the whole spirit of PaB is very close to that of wu-wei, not-doing, yes, Tarmel
Pema Pera: letting it be, letting it happen
Pema Pera: not trying to interfere
Tarmel Udimo: nods
Pema Pera: yet being alert and present
Pema Pera: watching
stevenaia Michinaga: I enjoy the opportunities to turn my thinking inside out, be it for 9 or 90 seconds and as the day moves on
Eos Amaterasu: HI Fox!
Fox Monacular: Hi everyone
stevenaia Michinaga: it all helps with that
Tarmel Udimo: Hi Fox
stevenaia Michinaga: hello fox
Pema Pera: Good evening Fox!

Fox Monacular: I went to Dalai Lama's talk today:)
Fox Monacular: so I'm all inspired
Tarmel Udimo: in what way may i ask?
Fox Monacular: it was a public talk on compassion and education
Tarmel Udimo: intergrating compassion into education?
Fox Monacular: well, basically he just talked about compassion, and at the end formulated that integrating compassionate ethics into education is the next challenge for this century
Fox Monacular: the talk was nice, but the place was very disorienting for me - it was in a huge stadium - 15 000 people they say
Pema Pera: wow! That's quite a crowd
Tarmel Udimo: wow
Fox Monacular: yeah, hard to wrap your mind around
Fox Monacular: I've been to such a huge place only once before - to see cirque du soleil... and it was spooky:)
Fox Monacular: and Mathieu Ricard was his French translator today:)
Pema Pera: I've never met him, but he seems like a very special person, from what I've read
stevenaia Michinaga: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthieu_Ricard
Tarmel Udimo: are you in France Fox?
Tarmel Udimo: tks Steve
Fox Monacular: I could hardly see anything, of course, because we were kinda far, and so saw mostly screens, but it was nice to know you're in the presence... like knowing that he's there:)
Fox Monacular: No, I'm in Montreal
Tarmel Udimo: ahh canada like Eos
Fox Monacular: yes:)
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
--BELL--
Eos Amaterasu: it's a broad topic - integrating compassionate ethics into education - but think that's where the short PaB sessions can make that real in everyday life
Eos Amaterasu: at least re connecting where such an ethics comes from
Pema Pera: yes, ethics is all about integration
Fox Monacular: it's also a loaded topic, since there are many religious backgrounds... and the whole hostility between atheists and believers... we have a long way to go to develop a sensitive approach
Eos Amaterasu: yes, so it has to be accessible either thru or without such lenses
Pema Pera: yes, PaB is an attempt to go beyond the divide
Fox Monacular: nods
Tarmel Udimo: so what would that look like? intergrating compassionate ethics into education?
Fox Monacular: good question:)

Pema Pera: Kira is a modest attempt in that direction . . . .
Tarmel Udimo: nods
Pema Pera: educating from a base attitude of respect rather than competition
Tarmel Udimo: OK
Fox Monacular: in some schools they do 15 mins of transcendental meditation before classes... they found that it reduces aggressivity and improves relashionships between pupils and teachers
Fox Monacular: yes
Tarmel Udimo: OH
Pema Pera: The vision I had, and still have, is that Kira could grow into a kind of "university based on respect"
stevenaia Michinaga: the insecurities of humanity creates that competition
Pema Pera: interesting, Fox
Fox Monacular: university based on respect:) how great!
Fox Monacular: actually TM in schools is promoted by David Lynch foundations
Eos Amaterasu: One aspect is that of ethics coming from Being rather than from rules, prescriptions for actions
Pema Pera: So there are Catholic Universities, Black Universities, Buddhist Universities; Kira's possible goal would be a University based not on a creed or a subgroup, but on respect
Pema Pera: YES, Eos!
Tarmel Udimo: to achieve this would take some kind of training as outlined by Eos
Fox Monacular: The question is: how many people are actually ready for this:)
Tarmel Udimo: my question too
Eos Amaterasu: so in a way ethics in education means that we students :-) also learn, practice getting or not getting away from being
Pema Pera: respect, like in PaB; that is one thing PaB and Kira have in common, even while there are many differences. We don't respond with "I disagree!" but with "interesting, can you tell me more, so we can compare notes?"
Pema Pera: perhaps more than we think, Fox -- most people have never even gotten exposed!
Pema Pera: yes, Eos, very much so
Pema Pera: we are all students together, learning from each other
Fox Monacular: you know, sometimes I find that with my friends, my teachers, my family we have some common understanding of these thigs, there;s PaB, there;s Kira... and then I go out for a drink and find out that people are still homophobic, or still rant that religion is the root of all evil...
Eos Amaterasu: It's bringing it into the everyday that's a challenge
Fox Monacular: and I find that I don't know what to answer to such things anymore... because I have incorporated certain things as true and good and obvious

stevenaia Michinaga: why is "respect" such a dificult concept, why do people think they loose something by respecting others (who may disagree)
Fox Monacular: yes, exactly
Eos Amaterasu: they feel threatened
stevenaia Michinaga: seems to be a fence the place around themslves
Fox Monacular: if they feel threatened, does it imply they are insecure in their own worldview?
Eos Amaterasu: Well, if something questions their worldview they feel threatened - we do too :-)
Eos Amaterasu: At least for an instant :-)
Tarmel Udimo: its an emotional response that unfortuantely is triggered and often the person has no control.. or even awareness of the need for control
Pema Pera: we draw back from what we are into what we have -- a movement largely built on fear, a defense reaction; PaB gently tries to undo that
Tarmel Udimo: and is fear based,
Pema Pera: yes, Eos, and it's fun to watch that, isn't it, in ourselves!
Tarmel Udimo: agree with pema
Fox Monacular: yes, I know!
--BELL--
Fox Monacular: I get into very heated debates with my brother in law who is in evolutionary psychology
Fox Monacular: and I often observe myself becoming very emotional and defensive...:)
stevenaia Michinaga: having compassion for someone does not mean you necessarily share their view or lifestyle, compassion does not diminish or threaten
Fox Monacular: that's right, and that is why compassion is like a muscle that needs to be built gradually
Eos Amaterasu: as does our own sense of being able to let go
Tarmel Udimo: nods being right is no longer important
Fox Monacular: Dalai Lama gave an example today of a Tibetan monk who was in Chinese concentration camps for 20 years, was then released, and was asked what was the greatest danger that he faced in the goulags. He responded that the greatest danger was losing his compassion towards the Chinese
Pema Pera: that's a profound reaction, Fox . . . .
Tarmel Udimo: yes
Fox Monacular: that's a high degree of compassion training...!
Tarmel Udimo: yes talk about one pointed focus in a lifetime:)
Fox Monacular: I'm from Russia, and there were memberst of my family that were victims of the Stalinist regime, and the new regime is also quite bloody, and even now, in Canada, I sometimes have real anger buld up, even though I directly didn't saw anything evil myself... but have family members who suffered
Tarmel Udimo: nods
Fox Monacular: even to just imagine being compassionate towards some people of the government is hard for me... although in theory I know why I should
Eos Amaterasu: I've found that people with concentration camp and similar histories can still relate very humanely to individual people
Eos Amaterasu: the question is about the "systems" the "oppressors" belong to
Pema Pera: I have a similar experience, Fox, growing up soon after the second world war, and hearing stories about the German occupation of Holland; probably not as brutal as in your case, but nonetheless incredibly brutal for those who were directly affected
Eos Amaterasu: and we sometimes find ourselves belonging to such oppressive systems
Pema Pera: and indeed, some people could cope with it remarkabl well
Eos Amaterasu: that's the challenge for ethics
Fox Monacular: yes, in theory I understand. but when I introspectively observe myself, I know I can't quite help feeling strong emotion
Pema Pera: "unconditional" is what is being tested in compassion under such circumstances
Fox Monacular: yes, exactly
stevenaia Michinaga: certain aspects of compassion are as blind as some aspects of love
Pema Pera: yes, Fox, and the challenge is NOT to suppress or deny or wish away those emotions, but to include them in what you feel compassion about -- if you don't look at your own reactions in an inclusive compassionate way you cannot possibly be compassionate toward others
Tarmel Udimo: well said Pema
Tarmel Udimo: and the only way to deal with it

Eos Amaterasu: I have to leave, but just want to say that Eliza and I have been talking about having a book club or something similar about Francisco Varela's "Ethical Know-How", a very short book which I believe talks about ethics from Being
Pema Pera: what you really are goes beyond your emotions; emotions are tools or ornaments to work with and polish
Tarmel Udimo: grest topic Eos
Eos Amaterasu: (I believe based on having read it twice :-)
Tarmel Udimo: And true enough Pema
Pema Pera: great idea, Eos!
Tarmel Udimo: *great
Pema Pera: and actually, I have to go too
Tarmel Udimo: yes me too
Tarmel Udimo: nice chat all
Pema Pera: how do you intend to structure that, Eos?
Eos Amaterasu: This was great discussion - thanks all, and see you soon!
Fox Monacular: that would be great Eos
Eos Amaterasu: Not sure - maybe just announce it, and set it up with those that are interested.
stevenaia Michinaga: you should have it here, in the community
Fox Monacular: yes, I know what you mean, Pema
Pema Pera: sure
Pema Pera: (to Eos)
Fox Monacular: I'm definitely interested
Eos Amaterasu: Elize suggested doing it a spart of regular sessions - that's one way
Pema Pera: perhaps in the Village?
Tarmel Udimo: keep us all posted
--BELL--
Pema Pera: the PaB Village?
Eos Amaterasu: Yes
Tarmel Udimo: yes right place
Fox Monacular: yes, we should start using tje village:)
stevenaia Michinaga: yes
Tarmel Udimo: I am thinking of moving in:)
stevenaia Michinaga: it's easier than you think Tarmel
Tarmel Udimo: grins at Steve, actually found a spot I liek
Tarmel Udimo: Like
Tarmel Udimo: close to a tree:)
stevenaia Michinaga: or, bring your own tree
Pema Pera: bfn
Eos Amaterasu: bye....
Tarmel Udimo: bye
stevenaia Michinaga: buy pema, see you soon
Eos Amaterasu: ttfn!
Fox Monacular: bye everyone, thanks for the great discussion