2009.10.31 19:00 -Limits

The Guardian for this meeting was genesis Zhangsun. The comments are by genesis Zhangsun.

Pila Mulligan: hi Neela :)
Neela Blaisdale: Hi Pila
Pila Mulligan: nice to see you :) lol
Neela Blaisdale: haha you too...
Pila Mulligan: [this is a stage entrance, for the record]
Neela Blaisdale: so I had an interesting experience this week
Pila Mulligan: what was your experience?
Neela Blaisdale: I'm taking a course i teaching mindfulness based stress reduction...
Pila Mulligan: hmm
Neela Blaisdale: and the eacher used the phrase... Being as Knowing...
Neela Blaisdale: I was amazed...
Neela Blaisdale: PaB in RL!
Pila Mulligan: well, there certainly are a lot of opporutnities for it
Neela Blaisdale: then someone said... Knowing as Being:)
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: did you suggest they try a 90 second pause
Neela Blaisdale: felt like they were channling PaB:)
Neela Blaisdale: *e
Neela Blaisdale: haha.. no because they're following a curriculum.. but we do have periods of silent sitting...
Pila Mulligan: I think it must help, I'd bet it could become popular in many meetings
Pila Mulligan: it helps keep balance
Neela Blaisdale: so.. in many contexts
Neela Blaisdale: yes
Pila Mulligan: Doug Sosa was thinking about intorducing it to a workshop of graduate students dealing with real lif eissues
Neela Blaisdale: introducing which part?
Pila Mulligan: the 90 second pause, I believe
Pila Mulligan: maybe more
Pila Mulligan: I can recall several organizations I've been associated with that could have benefitted from more balance
Neela Blaisdale: as you say would be great n a number of settings...
Pila Mulligan: yep
--BELL--
Neela Blaisdale: but I think you have to do some education on what to focus on during the 90 sec, otherwise people would feel a little lost...
Pila Mulligan: perhaps, but then again maybe not in some situations -- the idea of an empty pause may be helpful just to restore a degree of objectivity in a meeting where there is debate, for example
Pila Mulligan: community organization meetings, for example, can heat up easily
stevenaia Michinaga: hello
Neela Blaisdale: Hello Steve:)
Pila Mulligan: speaking of heating up -- hi Steve
Neela Blaisdale: from the frying pan....
stevenaia Michinaga: hi Pila, Neela, haven't seen you in a while
Pila Mulligan: oh, and Happy Halowe'en :0
Neela Blaisdale: is that for Halloween Steve?
stevenaia Michinaga: it seemsed appropriate last night :)
Neela Blaisdale: haha
Neela Blaisdale: costumes for SL....
Neela Blaisdale: as opposed to our real SL selves... layer upon layer...
stevenaia Michinaga: flaming feet was all I needed at the time
Pila Mulligan: what was the occasion last night?
stevenaia Michinaga: some dance that had so many affects I could ahve been tripping
Pila Mulligan: set your feet on fire eh
stevenaia Michinaga: nods
stevenaia Michinaga: gaya was there
Pila Mulligan: flames behind the feet are not an uncommon touch in some traditional meditation images
stevenaia Michinaga: go on
Pila Mulligan: that was it :)
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
Pila Mulligan: googling for an example onw ...
stevenaia Michinaga: interesting session regarding hinduism the other day
stevenaia Michinaga: I read it was there a second one yet?
Pila Mulligan: yes
Pila Mulligan: one in the monring and one in the afternoon last week
stevenaia Michinaga: it all seems so complex initially
Neela Blaisdale: which part?
Pila Mulligan: Hinduism is complex :)
stevenaia Michinaga: understanding the asepcts of thier views
stevenaia Michinaga: after 5000 years I suppose some complexity arises
Neela Blaisdale: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: places to go (hereafter) things to see (self)
Neela Blaisdale: although Buddhism, on one level, seems straightforward, maybe becase i's on;y 2000 years old
stevenaia Michinaga: I found Buddhism quite difficult
Pila Mulligan: I think of Buddhism as drawing on Hindu traditions the way Chritsianity drew on Jewish trasditions
Pila Mulligan: kind of old testamanet new testament -- to be simplistic
stevenaia Michinaga: nods
--BELL--
Pila Mulligan: although Buddha dropped the dieties it seems
stevenaia Michinaga: so many views of aspects of Being
Pila Mulligan: well, the Google search was fruitless :
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: my recollection is of seeing traditional art work where flames seemed to represent energy around the body
stevenaia Michinaga: it does warm
Pila Mulligan: kind of like a more intense image of an aura segment
Neela Blaisdale: Well I must go.. good night
stevenaia Michinaga: bye Neela
Pila Mulligan: bye Neela, nice to visit with you
Neela Blaisdale: don't forget to set the clocks back...
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Genesis
Pila Mulligan: thanks
Pila Mulligan: hi Genesis
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, that must raise havoc for our other worldly friends
Neela Blaisdale: Hi Gen
Neela Blaisdale: and bye....:)
genesis Zhangsun: Hi Neela, Stevanaia, and Pila
Pila Mulligan: although actually Hawaii clocks do not chage :)
Neela Blaisdale: Ah,,,
Neela Blaisdale: see you all soon:)
genesis Zhangsun: bye Neela
Pila Mulligan: Gen, Neela and I were chatting over at the village and came here fomr there at the start
Pila Mulligan: so there is a note about our staged entrance early in the log :)
genesis Zhangsun: nice okay thanks for the warning :)
Pila Mulligan: it may not make sense wihtout this info
genesis Zhangsun: glad to see there is some village life going on
Pila Mulligan: yes
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
genesis Zhangsun: How are you too doing?
genesis Zhangsun: *two
Pila Mulligan: fine thanks
Pila Mulligan: .. and you?
stevenaia Michinaga: good
stevenaia Michinaga: thanks
genesis Zhangsun: you look more than just good stevenaia...I believe you are actually on fire :)
Pila Mulligan: here's a kind of fire image associated with kundalini meditation (also from an earlier comment) -- http://www.karunamayi.org/News/image...n%206a_000.JPG
genesis Zhangsun: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: well it's only my feet that are on fire
genesis Zhangsun: hard to tell from my vantage point
genesis Zhangsun: so did I miss the explanation about the feet on fire?
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: pila was searching for editative images of feet on fire
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: meditative*
stevenaia Michinaga: I suppose those who walk on fire could be similar
Pila Mulligan: fire wlakingis a kind of meditaiton
--BELL--
stevenaia Michinaga: awwww
Pila Mulligan: the fire is extringuished :)
genesis Zhangsun: Someone that I was talking to recently who had come into a few PaB sessions felt frustrated by the experience and I have been thinking about this for days
Pila Mulligan: how were they frustrated ?
stevenaia Michinaga: with so many aspects, it could always be the case for a newcoming
stevenaia Michinaga: newcomer
genesis Zhangsun: frustrated because they felt it was much more about "play" than being or meditation
Pila Mulligan: ere they a newcomer or an old timer?
stevenaia Michinaga: I remember reading some of my initial visits here with pema, I a lack of understanding for a while
genesis Zhangsun: something in between, have been a part of the whole thing for awhile but was a less frequent vistor before
stevenaia Michinaga: *had
genesis Zhangsun: what do you mean lack of understanding steve?
genesis Zhangsun: could u explain?
stevenaia Michinaga: when I was being interviewed by adams I re-read my very first frew logs where I did much listening.pema, stim and others would discuss aspects of what they were doing and I was literally clueless until something jsut "clicked"
stevenaia Michinaga: usually some sort of linking metaphor, like.. "ok you mean like this" and things began to make more and more sence
stevenaia Michinaga: partly the meditations (9 secs back then)
stevenaia Michinaga: it was fresh and exciting
stevenaia Michinaga: and continues to be so
stevenaia Michinaga: but depending on which conversation someone walks in on... I can understand what you are saying, how did they come by this conversation with you,
stevenaia Michinaga: it is good that they knew to make their comments to you
genesis Zhangsun: well I guess it started because I was discussing the limits of the medium
genesis Zhangsun: in providing group support etc
genesis Zhangsun: this person pointed out the limits of the medium in really communicating this idea of starting at the end
genesis Zhangsun: that there may be a lot of playing as being without any real being
genesis Zhangsun: :)
genesis Zhangsun: limits in providing proper support is one challenge which we could find ways to overcome, the limit of the medium in communicating the central point is another thing entirely
stevenaia Michinaga: I do enjoy the slow deliberate and thoughtful pase of the conversations here
genesis Zhangsun: yes but I suppose that does depend on whether there are slow deliberate and thoughtful people present
stevenaia Michinaga: ofcourse
--BELL--
genesis Zhangsun: what really had me going about this conversation was the deeper assumptions contained within the critique
genesis Zhangsun: I think this person may see enlightenment as project that is communicated in a direct and sudden manner
genesis Zhangsun: my thinking on this is that there are flashes but the rest is much more like a sponge getting saturated
Pila Mulligan: yes Gen, you referred to the person's frustration being not enough about Being or meditation -- those are two distinct topics -- it seems people sometimes refer to practice with different meanings
Pila Mulligan: practice talking or practice meditation, for example
genesis Zhangsun: yes that is a good point, they are two separate things
genesis Zhangsun: I think this person meant that the talk reflected the lack of practice
Pila Mulligan: lack of practicing meditation?
genesis Zhangsun: yes
Pila Mulligan: or lack of practicng talk about Being?
genesis Zhangsun: sorry that wasn't clear
Pila Mulligan: well, with its dual meaning, practice can to include talking about Being and also can include meditation practice -- I've seen very little discussion of meditation practice here actually
Pila Mulligan: satsang is a traditional term for talk about Being
genesis Zhangsun: thats interesting, I didn't realize that there is a traditional term for it
genesis Zhangsun: and this is considered a form of practice?
Pila Mulligan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satsang
Pila Mulligan: it is an element of traditional contemplative schools
Pila Mulligan: especially form India :)
Pila Mulligan: from*
Pila Mulligan: "an assembly of persons who listen to, talk about, and assimilate the truth"
genesis Zhangsun: thanks! thats wonderful didn't realize that
Pila Mulligan: but, again, it is distinct form meditation practice
Pila Mulligan: they can be combined, of course
Pila Mulligan: but they are still appes and ranges
Pila Mulligan: oranges*
Pila Mulligan: apples*
Pila Mulligan: :)
genesis Zhangsun: sure. I think I see the role of the assembly in assimilating truth in this group as very different from the type of communities that this person is used to
--BELL--
Pila Mulligan: yes, and traditional satsang usually involves assembling around a guru or teacher
genesis Zhangsun: to sum it up simply, I see us as buddhas reminding one another that we really are buddhas, whereas I think this person sees the role of the community as working to support one another arrive at buddhahood
genesis Zhangsun: it is funny that to see that starting at the end is possible you have to see that starting at the end is possible
Pila Mulligan: I believe the etymology of the term is from sangha, menaing literally group or assembly, and sat meaning truth
genesis Zhangsun: that makes sense :)
Pila Mulligan: :)
genesis Zhangsun: well Pila and Steve I have to get going
genesis Zhangsun: thanks for allowing me to air this issue a bit
stevenaia Michinaga: night Gen
genesis Zhangsun: night
Pila Mulligan: bye Gen
Pila Mulligan: hnak you
stevenaia Michinaga: hope it was of help
genesis Zhangsun: I have a feeling i am going to be working on this for awhile
genesis Zhangsun: if not forever
Pila Mulligan: :)
genesis Zhangsun: :)
genesis Zhangsun: good night :)
stevenaia Michinaga: night gen
Pila Mulligan: the holy science takes as a begining knowing where to stop and as end stopping at the highest good
Pila Mulligan: Chinese
genesis Zhangsun: I like that, I heard that a real artists knows when to stop-when a work of art is truly finished
Pila Mulligan: subtle, too :)
genesis Zhangsun: sounds similar
genesis Zhangsun: ty, more to consider and stop considering :)
Pila Mulligan: aloha
Pila Mulligan: so tonite seems to be set back the clock night in the US
stevenaia Michinaga: yes
Pila Mulligan: meaning SLT will move an hour
stevenaia Michinaga: extra hour
Pila Mulligan: from my time at least
stevenaia Michinaga: yes
Pila Mulligan: 5:40 at 8:40 SLT becomes ^:40
Pila Mulligan: 6:40*
stevenaia Michinaga: etc
Pila Mulligan: I'll have to try to remeember that :)
Pila Mulligan: it will make these sessions easier, beint at 5pm instead of 4 pm
Pila Mulligan: 4 pm is a often n the middle of something else
stevenaia Michinaga: yes
stevenaia Michinaga: I'm off
stevenaia Michinaga: see you soon Pila
Pila Mulligan: aloha Steve