2009.10.19 19:00 - Sleep paralysis and doors of perception

The Guardian for this meeting was Fox Monacular. The comments are by Fox Monacular.

Pila Mulligan: hi Fox
Fox Monacular: Hi PIla
Pila Mulligan: how are you?
Fox Monacular: good, how are you?
Pila Mulligan: also fine, thanks
Fox Monacular: I finally made it to my guardian slot :_
Fox Monacular: :)
Pila Mulligan: :)
Fox Monacular: last two times unexpected things prevented me from going onlne
Pila Mulligan: it seems to be kind of slow SL night for the PaB session
Fox Monacular: seems so
Pila Mulligan: this is your first Guardian session then?
Fox Monacular: no, it's fifth or so... of which I unintentionally missed two:)
Pila Mulligan: ahh
Fox Monacular: I wish I could be in PaB more often, it's a really addictive place
Pila Mulligan: I'm looking forward to hearing more about your dream work at Maxine's session tomorrow
Fox Monacular: :)
Pila Mulligan: want to practice some now for then?
Fox Monacular: I think I'll talk about sleep paralysis
Pila Mulligan: soound sinteresting, what is it?
Fox Monacular: it's a phenomenon that happens at sleep onset or upon awakening
Fox Monacular: but more often at awakening in the morning
Fox Monacular: and your whole body is paralyzed, but you're aware of your environment
Fox Monacular: and then often start to hallucinate
Pila Mulligan: hmm, like the body is not yet awake but perception is no longer asleep?
Fox Monacular: and some of the hallucinations very real, very scary
Fox Monacular: yes, seems so
Pila Mulligan: I've never heard of it
Fox Monacular: and so people talk about all sort of things
Pila Mulligan: before
Fox Monacular: like hearing stuff, feeling touched, even sexually harrased by some supernatural evil entity
Pila Mulligan: sound slike the stuff of myhts
Pila Mulligan: myths*
Fox Monacular: and the weirdest thing (that I like the most) is that people talk about feeling 'presence'
Pila Mulligan: what do they report hearing?
Fox Monacular: yes, myths, definitely!
--BELL--
Fox Monacular: they hear all sort of things
Fox Monacular: they hear voices sometimes, or sounds of movement
Fox Monacular: or weird unnatural sounds
Fox Monacular: but they distinctly feel that 'someone' is there
Pila Mulligan: so obviously those being sexually hasrassed have a sense of some bein alos present, but is the presence idea common in most such paralysis situations?
Fox Monacular: actually, in many countries sleep paralysis is a cultural thing - like witch oppression
Fox Monacular: no, not always, but in most intense cases, yes
Pila Mulligan: witch oppression was the first thought that came to my mind
Fox Monacular: often there is no other hallucination
Pila Mulligan: so how does this phenonmenon get explained?
Fox Monacular: yes, and in different countries there are different magical remedies
Pila Mulligan: in your lab?
Fox Monacular: well, on the EEG level we know that a person experiencing sleep paralysis is actually in a sort of a state dissociation
Pila Mulligan: is state dissociation another term for hallucination?
Fox Monacular: so his body is still in REM (thus muscle paralysis, shallow breathing etc), he can still move his eyes
Fox Monacular: but his mind is kind of awake
Fox Monacular: it's like the opposite of lucid dreaming
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: lucid waking?
Fox Monacular: actually people who have a lot of sleep paralysis often lucid dream too
Fox Monacular: not that lucid though... they get scared of their hallucinations still
Pila Mulligan: sure, it must be frightening
Fox Monacular: I'll bring examples of sleep paralysis narrative from the lab tomorrow, some are quite intense
Pila Mulligan: I can imagine
Fox Monacular: and there are people who talk about sleep paralysis being a window into lucid dreaming
Pila Mulligan: does your lab try to relate to the presence or witch oppression aspect?
Fox Monacular: not really the lab, it's more my topic
Pila Mulligan: :) I think it is quite interesting also
Fox Monacular: but we published a paper recently relating felt presence to social imagery and social anxiety
Pila Mulligan: like demon fighting dreams (fighting what tradition would call demons, that is)
Fox Monacular: as if there is a propensity to feel 'others' which manifests itself across the states
Fox Monacular: yes, definitely
Pila Mulligan: let's take an al;ternative apporach, let's suppose the presence is real
Pila Mulligan: hypothetically :)
Fox Monacular: it may yet be real
Fox Monacular: :)
Pila Mulligan: so that propensity to feel 'others' is suppressed usually
Pila Mulligan: but emerges in sleep paralysis
Pila Mulligan: then maybe we are seeing an aspect of how the mind organizes reality to make it workable in daily life
Pila Mulligan: cutting off the demons so to speak
Fox Monacular: I see, so it's like dream mentation is making a stand
Fox Monacular: interesting
Pila Mulligan: or even dream mentation is crossing the waking boundary in an unusual manner
Pila Mulligan: as we suually exclude such presences from our waking state
Fox Monacular: so the demons usually stay in the dream world, and only really come out in such intense situations as nightmares or sleep paralysis
Pila Mulligan: but our exclusion is a modern day adaptation
Pila Mulligan: yes
Pila Mulligan: using demons loosely :)
Fox Monacular: yes, I understand
Fox Monacular: I like that, actually ever since I'm researching presence, I think I feel more presence in waking life than before
Pila Mulligan: there is a long record of supernatural phenomena in traditional socities
Fox Monacular: as if I become more attuned
Pila Mulligan: some are light and helpful, some are dark and oppressive
Fox Monacular: in some African countries, they put a broom at the entrance to the room so that the witch starts counting the straws and leaves the sleeper alone
Pila Mulligan: so it worked both ways back then, so to speak
Pila Mulligan: :)
Fox Monacular: yes, right
Pila Mulligan: some Hawaiian tale sinvolve dark necromancy, such as praying someone to death
Fox Monacular: but sleep paralysis is unusually dark... there are almost no accounts of positive experiences
Fox Monacular: yes, I heard about it too:)
Fox Monacular: although some people report out-of-body episodes during sleep paralysis, and these are usually fun
Pila Mulligan: I suppose it would be -- why be afradi of angels :)
--BELL--
Pila Mulligan: re positive accounts
Fox Monacular: what's really striking to me is that the prevalence of SP is almost 40%
Pila Mulligan: one story from Hawaiian history I rememebr was about a worker on aplantation being prayed to death
Pila Mulligan: the Caucasian plantation owner (a rather aggressive type) found out about it and went to the supposed necromancer
Pila Mulligan: they hada confrontation and the plantation guy threatned the necormancer with harm if he continued
Pila Mulligan: and thr worker got well immeidately thereafter
Fox Monacular: wow
Pila Mulligan: usuaully I take a less sympathetic view of the plantation era's owners
Pila Mulligan: but that may be an example of actual value from not believeing a necromancer has such power
Fox Monacular: you know, the more I do science, the more I actually believe in this things.... usually it's the opposite:)
Pila Mulligan: well, some sicence is self-justifying, some is more objectively jsuitfying
Fox Monacular: the thing is that in our society people are reluctant to talk about htese things
Pila Mulligan: I give wieght to traditions, myself
Pila Mulligan: it was real then, at least
Pila Mulligan: so what has changed?
Fox Monacular: yes... somehow trust old stuff more than new
Pila Mulligan: it should be given respect, if not validated
Fox Monacular: now people are afraid of being treated as schizophrenics if they mention their sleep paralysis
Pila Mulligan: but the central question is why do we see it idfferently now
Pila Mulligan: :) yes, fear of the modern demons
Fox Monacular: like, hey mom, demons harrassed me again tonight, so I don't feel like doing dishes today
Pila Mulligan: they wo;t be burned at the stake, they will be burned a tthe pharmacy
Fox Monacular: :)
Pila Mulligan: :)
Fox Monacular: people have a phobia of mental illness
Pila Mulligan: yep, espoecially the social rejection part
Fox Monacular: while these experiences seem to be actually normal
Fox Monacular: yes
Fox Monacular: 40% is the lifetime prevalence
Fox Monacular: imagine!
Pila Mulligan: they can be normal enough to be respected, but not necessarily to be ignored is how to best improve them
Pila Mulligan: how to ameliorate the dark part
Pila Mulligan: so they are less distressing
Fox Monacular: right, and peple don't respect them as psychological phenomena at all
Fox Monacular: they want 'cure'
Pila Mulligan: and so-called curing drugs are too frequnetly as much of a problem
Fox Monacular: well, actually just knowing that you're probably not phychotic alreally helps people
Pila Mulligan: indeed
Pila Mulligan: treating normal is normal
Pila Mulligan: as*
Fox Monacular: I had many research participants tell me that just the fact that they talk to me about it an dthat I'm not surprised and tell them that there are many others is already helping cope with distress
Pila Mulligan: you must be aware of modern day psychotropis that produce strong sensations of presence
Fox Monacular: and actually you're right, it's the distress part that is most damaging
Fox Monacular: like salvia?
Pila Mulligan: yes
Pila Mulligan: eyote
Pila Mulligan: peyote\and others
Fox Monacular: yes
Pila Mulligan: Mescalito is a well-recognized deomn
Pila Mulligan: salvia is full of minor demons
Pila Mulligan: and minor angels
Pila Mulligan: from what I';ve read
Fox Monacular: would be cool to do research but tricky to get permission of ethic committee
Pila Mulligan: :0
Fox Monacular: :)
Pila Mulligan rememebrs Leary
Fox Monacular: seems so... from what i read too:)
Fox Monacular: actually, in Montreal there's a bar where they legally serve salvia
Pila Mulligan: there is probably enough literature to do second source research
Pila Mulligan: cool
Pila Mulligan: I thought it had been legallly dmeonized everyehwere
Fox Monacular: there are remarkably few studies
Fox Monacular: and mostly on rats
Pila Mulligan: just Google salvia or peyote
Fox Monacular: which is strange, considering that salvia is not illegal
Pila Mulligan: there are tons of non-acadmeic reports
Fox Monacular: yes, non academic, definitely
Fox Monacular: I've read quite a few
Fox Monacular: you know, in rats they found that salvia produces REM-like EEG
Pila Mulligan: unfortuantely the established boundary of academic dignity rejects a lot of things that deserve more dignity that they get
Fox Monacular: I know, it's terrible:)
Pila Mulligan: what the EEG is measuring then suggests similar organic conditions
--BELL--
Pila Mulligan: booundary dissolving conditions
Fox Monacular: or perhaps similar phenomanology?
Pila Mulligan: yes
Pila Mulligan: so-called phenomena involve a distortion of ordinary perception -- rasining the quesiotn of how do we some to understand ordinary
Pila Mulligan: come *
Pila Mulligan: do we accept a pre-defined ordinary state?
Fox Monacular: yes, and makes you wonder 'what else; are you missing?
Pila Mulligan: :) yes
Pila Mulligan: I can think of several things from yogic schools that would explain a lot of un-oridnary perceptions
Pila Mulligan: but in fact are just steps toward better awareness
Fox Monacular: right, I always thought 'altered' states of consciousness is not such a good concept
Pila Mulligan: such states can be light and dark, the latter getting more attention
Pila Mulligan: and/or perhaps
Fox Monacular: yes, dark ones have a tendency to be distressing and intrude into normal life too much
Pila Mulligan: if we think a darker state is ordinary, there may be unnecessary anxiety when it is affected by light
Pila Mulligan: the obverse of your scomment :)
Fox Monacular: ;)
Pila Mulligan: but a genuinelt enligthening atte will prevail, and beocme ordinary in time
Pila Mulligan: state*
Fox Monacular: that's a huge hope:)
Pila Mulligan: I think it is established historically
Pila Mulligan: there is some ground for optiism
Fox Monacular: but looks like people in the past knew better how to deal with their demons than we do
Pila Mulligan: in thelnog run :)
Pila Mulligan: I thnk the demn delaing problem is limited today by the academic scientific dignity problem
Pila Mulligan: socence can be self-absorbed
Fox Monacular: and by the unquestioned belief in empirical method
Fox Monacular: yes, big time
Pila Mulligan: yes, as validated by repition
Pila Mulligan: suppose non-repetitive empiricsm is also valid?
Pila Mulligan: that's like asking the Pope to ocntemplate polytheism
Fox Monacular: and so you're discouraged from asking questions that are difficult to quantify
Pila Mulligan: hi Doug
Fox Monacular: hi Doug
doug Sosa: keep talking, just returned from long drive in the rain.
Pila Mulligan: I hope the drive was not discomforting
Pila Mulligan: we are tlaking about demons and scinec eDoug
doug Sosa: and quantification? One of the BIG demons :)
Fox Monacular: yes!
Pila Mulligan: it began with Fox telling me about sleep paralysis reports from her univveristy's dream laboratiry
doug Sosa: science is about curiosity, numbers is alimited vocaulary of reasonable representations.
Pila Mulligan: Doug is an unber shrink Fox (if I may be so bold)
Pila Mulligan: uber-shrink*
Pila Mulligan: so you guys are in the same acadmeic territory
doug Sosa: expansive minded shrink :)
Pila Mulligan: :)
doug Sosa: what is sleep paralysis?
Pila Mulligan: a nice opportunity to re-cycle some of the chat
Fox Monacular: sorry, had to step out
Fox Monacular: baby screaming
Fox Monacular: mama mama mama
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: mama time ha spriority
Pila Mulligan: I'll cut and paste some for Doug for the time being
Pila Mulligan: oops, it was before I re-logged
Fox Monacular: oh, ok, thanks Pila
Pila Mulligan: sorry, must wait :)
Fox Monacular: wait a sec...
doug Sosa: thanks. but i can pick it up with a single sentence.
Fox Monacular: it's easier to just re-type
doug Sosa: MA MA MA. i can do it too :)
Pila Mulligan attempts: it is a condition where people, usually on awakeneing, may feel a presence or even harassment but cannot move their body
Fox Monacular: basically it's a transient phenomenon that happens at sleep onset or at awakening
Fox Monacular: yes:)
doug Sosa: OK i under stand it. Want my theory?
Fox Monacular: and often there are very intense and realistic hallucinations
Pila Mulligan: sure
Fox Monacular: yes!
doug Sosa: The mind is most active when asleep. On awakening htere is new sensory input that forces the mind to reduce its activity to include a good impedance 9sp?) match with
doug Sosa: the incoming. Sleep paralysis is because the mind, ehn in a good stable and active state ehn aslepp takes a few moments to gear down to the lower level of activity when actualy seeing part of the world.
--BELL--
doug Sosa: saved by the bell once again.
Pila Mulligan: :)
Fox Monacular: :)
Pila Mulligan: that makes sense, Doug - a balance question
Fox Monacular: interesting, doug
Pila Mulligan: we got into demons earlier, as an older expression of similar phenomena
Fox Monacular: it's also a REM phenomenon - so REM psychophysiology - atonia and dreaming (hallucinations)
Fox Monacular: intrude upon wake
doug Sosa: what i like about this theory is that the mind is most active when free from the ned to match external inputs. hence dreama re a reflection of this greater freedom.
Fox Monacular: SP is one of the symptoms of narcolephy
Fox Monacular: narcolapsy
Fox Monacular: yes, I like that too
doug Sosa: the need to sleep - to be free and let things organize themselves - a kind oc cleaning up - is very powerful.
Fox Monacular: yes, sleep plays an important role in memory consolidation
doug Sosa: Now, here is a new discovery - maybe. If you have the opportunity to sleep next to someone, put your hand on their skin and as they fall asleep notice that the skin begins to actually undulate in rhythmic waves, not stable completely because the skin surface is too irregular, but it feels to me like the sleepin is not completeley disconnected fom the nerves going to the muscles.
doug Sosa: If the brain needs cleaning out, perhaps the whole nervous system does.
Pila Mulligan: rejuvination?
doug Sosa: daily.
Fox Monacular: i've never heard of it, sounds really interesting
Fox Monacular: I should try it:)
doug Sosa: but the switch from the free brain (mind) of sleep to the rstricted brain of awwkend percepton is, for many, exhausting.
Pila Mulligan note for Doug: if you have time tomorrow afternoon (I hope you do) this discussion by Fox about her dream lab work will be part of the topic at Maxine's dream workshop at Kira, 2:00 SLT Tuesday
Fox Monacular: :)
Fox Monacular: would be great if you could come
doug Sosa: Oh i'd love to. I have a lunch a few miles from campus that won't end till about 2. if i get back to the studio in time I will check in. but quote me if you like.
Pila Mulligan: thanks
Pila Mulligan: and I hope you can be there
Pila Mulligan: hello Bene
Fox Monacular: hello Benedizione
doug Sosa: hi bene , i didn't get here much before you.
Benedizione Vita: hi doug
doug Sosa: Its the second shift :)
Benedizione Vita: traveling at relatavistic speed, we got here first ;^)
Benedizione Vita: (not really, of course) :^)
Fox Monacular: :)
doug Sosa: isn't all speed relativistic?
Pila Mulligan: Meher Baba wrote about the transition from sleep to awakend percepton (and vice versa) as the closest approach ordinary to the presence of God many, exhausting.
Pila Mulligan: ordinary approach*
Pila Mulligan: strie many exhautong -- left over fomr cut and paste
doug Sosa: Interesting. I once had a girlfriend who was a baba devotee.
Pila Mulligan: God. * :)
Pila Mulligan: I love him myself
Fox Monacular: hypnagogic states have a lot to offer
Benedizione Vita: I read any interesting book about baba, among others
Benedizione Vita: not endorsing its contents, but worth reading:
doug Sosa: yes. the 9 sec and these states bar a lot of resemblance. Woth exploring.
doug Sosa: bar-bear
Fox Monacular: if you manage to stay awake during hypnagogic states, you can see most amazing things
Benedizione Vita: it's free online; here is the baba chapter: http://www.strippingthegurus.com/stg...rs/saibaba.asp
Benedizione Vita: ah but I am sorry, I just read baba--this one is about saibaba not meher baba...
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: Sai Baba Sr?
Pila Mulligan: he was one of Meher Baba's satgurus
Pila Mulligan: this discussion about dreaming has med me think of The Doors of Perception book by Aldous Huxley
Pila Mulligan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Doors_of_Perception
--BELL--
doug Sosa: Then there is hazrat anayat (sp) khan (sp - gad its been a while)
Pila Mulligan: yep
Pila Mulligan: and it ha sbeen a while
Benedizione Vita: oops, slipped into a nap, speaking of sleep
Benedizione Vita: I should probably go to bed soon--late here on east coast
Benedizione Vita: goodnight all
Fox Monacular: inayat khan - sufi?
Pila Mulligan: bye Bene
Fox Monacular: goodnight
Pila Mulligan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inayat_Khan
Pila Mulligan: yes Sufi -- also mysticism
Fox Monacular: right, that's the one I heard about
Fox Monacular: The doors of perception is one of these books that I know I should read, but it jsut never happens:)
Pila Mulligan: it is easy reading
Pila Mulligan: "His [eldest son's] teaching derived from the mystical tradition of the East brought to the West by his father combined with his knowledge of the esoteric heritage and scholarship of western culture."
Pila Mulligan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pir_Vilayat_Inayat_Khan
doug Sosa: I knew Pir but his father was amazing. never met him but was told lots of stories.
doug Sosa: Pir was pretty good too.
Pila Mulligan: :)
doug Sosa: I guess its go read time for me. I hope to join the dream tomorrow, not likely. maybe next time ( every tueday?)
Pila Mulligan: it has been regular for this year, but there will be a break in November and Decemebr, resuingin January
Fox Monacular: the worshop is on tuesdays, but it's likely to take a break
Pila Mulligan: it is an intersting session
Pila Mulligan: I hope you cn attend tomorrow, too
doug Sosa: ok, i will be in honolulu next tuesday so lets see.
Pila Mulligan: oh, come visit then too :)
Pila Mulligan: rl
Fox Monacular: lucky you:)
doug Sosa: wish i could flight over and time just not available. I'd really love to sit with you and watch the sky sky.
Pila Mulligan: please do when you can -- easy flights, like bus service, available guset room
doug Sosa: cost?
Pila Mulligan: I think they are about $80 each way, less roundtrip total, but may be wrong
Pila Mulligan: let me check a second
doug Sosa: I'll check but i think time is the limitation. conference on child and adolescent medicine.
Pila Mulligan: ahh
doug Sosa: which airport?
Pila Mulligan: Hilo -- ITO
doug Sosa: good. i'll check. night.
Pila Mulligan: hope mto see you soon, g['nite
Fox Monacular: good night
Pila Mulligan: well, Fox it must be late for you
Fox Monacular: yes, the baby' staring at the screen
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: hi baby
Fox Monacular: she's been going to bed late these days, I should take her to bed
Pila Mulligan: ok
Pila Mulligan: see you tommorrow then
Fox Monacular: she thinks it's a boring cartoon:)
Fox Monacular: yes, see you tomorrow,
Pila Mulligan: :)
Fox Monacular: have a good night, PIla!
Pila Mulligan: same to you and yours, Fox
Pila Mulligan: aloha `oe
Fox Monacular: aloha