2009.10.28 19:00 - Book Club And Pila's Dream

The Guardian for this meeting was stevenaia Michinaga. The comments are by stevenaia Michinaga.

stevenaia Michinaga: Hello Eos
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Stevenaia
stevenaia Michinaga: I jsut jsut parcticing my new Tai Chi moves while no one was here (in RL)
stevenaia Michinaga: how was your day?
Eos Amaterasu: Cool - Pila has some tai chi balls at his place, so you could synchronize SL/RL
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, he has a nice grouping there
Eos Amaterasu: Very busy day, one one-hour power failure
Eos Amaterasu: plus we had another book club mtg at Eliza's house
stevenaia Michinaga: sometimes a power failure creats new and interesting social situation
stevenaia Michinaga: s
Eos Amaterasu gives stevenaia a notecard with a quote from the book, Ethical Know-How
stevenaia Michinaga: reading... slowly
Eos Amaterasu: The club is going through the 3-chapter book b Francisco Varela, "Ethical Know-How"
stevenaia Michinaga: My i put it in the log?
Eos Amaterasu: Sure... there's actually a preceding sentence I should have added....
stevenaia Michinaga: feel free to put it in now and I will add your notecard
Eos Amaterasu: According to Mencius, people actualize virtue when they learn to extend knowledge and feelings from situations in which a particular action is considered correct to analogous situations in which the correct action is unclear...
stevenaia Michinaga: "For Mencius only truly virtuous people attend to their nature sufficiently well to understand an event in terms of their experience and thus ensure that the appropriate extension follows easily. For the truly virtuous then, moral judgment that results in immediate and spontaneous moral action is not different from true description." - Francisco Varela, Ethical Know-How, Chapter 2 (p 29)
stevenaia Michinaga: how is the book group going?
Eos Amaterasu: I have a photo of the book club event I can also add to the log
--BELL--
Eos Amaterasu: It's fun, a wild experiment
Eos Amaterasu: PaB 90-sec style resting is I think how that "true description" is allowed
Eos Amaterasu: it's just resting in how things are
Eos Amaterasu: not how you would like them to be
Eos Amaterasu: so you have some ground
Eos Amaterasu: and some confidence in extending from that
Eos Amaterasu: or else choicelessness
Eos Amaterasu: you just do what the situation demands
stevenaia Michinaga: I put up the beginings of tonight log if you wnat to post the pic while we are here, I'll add the remainder later
Eos Amaterasu: Cool !
Eos Amaterasu: I like that - multiple channels!
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: so you don't have to "come back" to the thought
Eos Amaterasu: an autopoietic situation :-)
stevenaia Michinaga: fortunaltey being on a laptop all day, the only thing a power outage would do is keep me off the internet, not disrupt work
Eos Amaterasu: "why would care not manifest" was one of the lines from the club mtg (genesis, I think)
stevenaia Michinaga: care?
stevenaia Michinaga: the act of?
Eos Amaterasu: Yeah, and I think laptops will get better at being asynch net nodes
Eos Amaterasu: The was re an example Varela gives in the book, of someone spontaneously reaching out to grab a child as he was falling into a well...
Eos Amaterasu: She gave a counter-example of a group of New Yorkers who chose not to intervene ("someone else must be doing it...")
stevenaia Michinaga: nods
Eos Amaterasu: this kind of question comes up in the context of, for example, wondering how to fit PaBing with social change, or problem-solving by groups (sustainability, what doug is involved in)
stevenaia Michinaga: those moments are mostly reacted upon (the first) and rearly thought about in advance, but show one's true nature
Eos Amaterasu: I think what Varela sees Mencius as saying is that this can be cultivated
stevenaia Michinaga: actions speaking louder than wards in this case
Eos Amaterasu: those moments of showing true nature
stevenaia Michinaga: I agree that cutivated is a good word in this case as it inplys it exists as a small seed withing all of us somewhere
Eos Amaterasu: you _enact_ moral being, you don't follow moral behavior
Eos Amaterasu: comes out of his theory of autopoietic enaction, where cognition comes out of active mutual engagement with world, co-shaping
Eos Amaterasu: and ethical be-ing is a similar shaping
stevenaia Michinaga: I was for a short time lisening to Stim's class on Ethics on a website that I was shown.. it is not at all as simple as I would ahve thought
stevenaia Michinaga: http://berkeleymonastery.org/steven/ethics.asp
Eos Amaterasu: so meanwhile how do you deal with it :-)
--BELL--
stevenaia Michinaga: I made the error of listening to 3 weeks of leactures at once... I need to come back to it another time, or find the t ime when I am ready :)
Eos Amaterasu: heh heh
stevenaia Michinaga: they were meant to be weekly
Eos Amaterasu: that's like reading all the Sherlock Holmes and Father Brown stories in one week :-)
Eos Amaterasu: I put up the picture, by the way
stevenaia Michinaga: like food, it must be digested sensibly
stevenaia Michinaga: looks nice there
stevenaia Michinaga: (the pic)
Eos Amaterasu: That's another aspect - creating conversational venues - I've been taking walks around the village
Eos Amaterasu: you have a nice place, with fountain
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, thanks, interesting that one must "touch" a plot to see who owns it
stevenaia Michinaga: like substituting touch for site
stevenaia Michinaga: hello paradise
Eos Amaterasu: I usually walk in it
Paradise Tennant: hiya steve
Eos Amaterasu: hi paradise
stevenaia Michinaga: sight
stevenaia Michinaga: lol
stevenaia Michinaga: sight of a site
Paradise Tennant: :)
Paradise Tennant: hiya eos ;)
Paradise Tennant: so did you two dream last night
stevenaia Michinaga: I don;t think I remember if I did
Eos Amaterasu: we've been talking about the book club meeting today, and ethical action coming out of the PaB-type appreciating
Paradise Tennant: ahhh
Eos Amaterasu: Oh! I saw the note from Pila about his interesting dream
Paradise Tennant: ;)
Eos Amaterasu: (speak of the devil :-)
Paradise Tennant: ;)
stevenaia Michinaga: online but not here
stevenaia Michinaga: yet
Paradise Tennant: ;)
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Pila
Paradise Tennant: hiya pila :)
Pila Mulligan: hi Steve, Paradise and Eos
stevenaia Michinaga: we were about to discuss your dream

Pila's Dream...

PRELUDE:  This message pertains to our chat session last night where we agreed to invite a dream (to use a phrase Maxine likes.)  My result was so brief and sublime as to seem to defy description.  The brief dream image was the first dream content of the evening, and as I watched it I thought “ahh, this is the PaB dream.”

THE DREAM:    The image was two prototypical humans (by this I mean they were generic, unremarkable as to gender, age, etc.) stretched out facing each other head near head on what could be compared to a photographer’s blank backdrop (no foreground or background or even any discernible ground, although it seemed they had been laying down at first.)  The best way to describe the sublime part is that they both sensed the moment and then began to arise.  I appeared to become aware of the moment (thinking “ahh, this is the PaB dream”) at the same time they did, so my observation was of them beginning to arise.  It was so brief that just as they began to arise the dream ended, yet the inference of a simultaneous awareness was profound, even in that brief moment, and an immediate association with our idea of inviting a dream was also an interesting element.

Pila Mulligan: :) nice timing
Pila Mulligan: did you also see Fox's message?
Eos Amaterasu: Stevenaia, last night some of us talked about having a dream
Eos Amaterasu: I just read it....
Pila Mulligan: what Maxine calls 'an invited dream'
Pila Mulligan: last night's posted chat log seems abbreviated :)
Paradise Tennant: :)
Pila Mulligan: had you told Steve about the dream I described in the email?
--BELL--
stevenaia Michinaga: no
stevenaia Michinaga: this was the series I was talking about
Pila Mulligan: thanks for the link Steve
stevenaia Michinaga: take it slowly, Pila
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
Pila Mulligan: ok
Eos Amaterasu: Okay, just posted last night's log (totally unedited)
Pila Mulligan: :)
Eos Amaterasu: so you seemed to be at a communication nexus, Pila
Pila Mulligan: yes, it was an interesting image
Pila Mulligan: an awakeninbg
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, time and dreams seem so at odds
Pila Mulligan: btw, I was looking at the wrong PaB log, the Book CLub one, that seems to refer to now :)
Eos Amaterasu: live, in real time, second life!
stevenaia Michinaga: wonders if the rate of time passing in the place where dreams come from is different
Eos Amaterasu: "the place where dreams come from"
Eos Amaterasu: I like that place
stevenaia Michinaga: can't be here now can it :)
Eos Amaterasu: ah, maybe that's it, this is where they come from!
Paradise Tennant: it sounds like just a wonderful dream expereince :)
Pila Mulligan: I think the dream had an analogy with SL in sensing the moment and then beginning to arise
Eos Amaterasu: Btw, I do not have dreams to report :-(
Pila Mulligan: we wake each othe rup here sometimes
Pila Mulligan: not yet, Eos :)
Paradise Tennant: ;)
Paradise Tennant: i tried hard
Pila Mulligan: when we sense a moment of awakeneing we then begin to decorate it -- the arising part
Eos Amaterasu: the dream seemed to be about the intention of inviting a dream
Paradise Tennant: ;)
Pila Mulligan: in PaB
Pila Mulligan: yes, the start of a dream that was also the essence of it
Eos Amaterasu: Ann Waldman called it "lipstick on shunyata"
Pila Mulligan: like a holograph
Paradise Tennant: ;)
Pila Mulligan: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: was this a sleeping dream, Pila, or resting?
Pila Mulligan: sleeping
Pila Mulligan: a real dream dream :)
Paradise Tennant: what did you think when you first awoke from it
Pila Mulligan: I did not awake from it -- that was the hard part
Paradise Tennant: oh
stevenaia Michinaga: I sometimes take a mid-day resting dream for 20 minutes maximun, and I always ahve 2 or 3 different dreams
Paradise Tennant: what were the other dreams like
stevenaia Michinaga: mid day nap rather
Pila Mulligan: I recognized it was the PaB dream and I knew I wanted to remember it so I just kind of held ont 'I need to rememebr tis' while I stayed asleep
Pila Mulligan: the other ones were kind of odd
Paradise Tennant: :)
Paradise Tennant: sigh
Pila Mulligan: I made no effort to remember the odd ones as I was already seton remembering the firs tone :)
Pila Mulligan: it was hard to find a description for the image, but the idea of sensing and arising works okay
Pila Mulligan: sensing, awakening, geetting up
Paradise Tennant: ;) all are good :)
Eos Amaterasu: playing with presencing
Eos Amaterasu: avatarish dreams of our being together
Paradise Tennant: yes
--BELL--
Eos Amaterasu: Just looking at this screen makes a diff
Pila Mulligan: it was funny how the two dream people were remarkably blank identity wise, yet there were plainly much more human that animation graphics -- they were kind of between complete people and SL avis
Pila Mulligan: dream Ruths :)
Paradise Tennant: :) and you were looking at them from above :)
Pila Mulligan: from beside, like a tableau
Paradise Tennant: they were vertical face to face
Pila Mulligan: but apart from them
Pila Mulligan: horzontal
Pila Mulligan: laying head to head aligned, feet opposite
Pila Mulligan: then they began to get up
Pila Mulligan: arising
Paradise Tennant: faces downward
Pila Mulligan: yes
Paradise Tennant: hmm
Eos Amaterasu: thriller
Pila Mulligan: they did not really even look at each other
Pila Mulligan: just started getting up
Paradise Tennant: levitating still horizontal or .. getting up like from a lying position
Pila Mulligan: feet /----0 heads 0----\ feet
Paradise Tennant: hmmm
Pila Mulligan: no, hands and kness style, like getting up form a mat
Paradise Tennant: ahh kk
Pila Mulligan: the latter
Paradise Tennant: interesting
Paradise Tennant: as soon as they were vertical it ended
Pila Mulligan: before
Pila Mulligan: it ended as they were arising
Pila Mulligan: it was very brief
Paradise Tennant: maybe something with in you is ready to blossom to arie ;)
Paradise Tennant: arise
Pila Mulligan: about enough time for me to say to meyslef, aha it is the PaB dream
Pila Mulligan: I think it was more PaB related actually, Paradise
Pila Mulligan: it did not seem informaitonal for me personally
Eos Amaterasu: what was the PaB aspect: mutual presence?
Pila Mulligan: yes, mutual awakening
Pila Mulligan: head to head dozing some then awareness that awakens then arising
Eos Amaterasu: blossoming awake
Pila Mulligan: it was a very lucid image, communicative as such, but difficult to describe
Pila Mulligan: the substance was in the image of sensing presence
Pila Mulligan: and a resulting awakeneing and arising
Pila Mulligan: my guess is it occurred about midinght, or about 6 am your time
Paradise Tennant: lol I tried very hard to dream .. and as I never remember my dreams .. it surpised me to find I did get a bit of one .. woke up in the middle of the night with one distinct thought
stevenaia Michinaga: may I include the dream in the the log Pila?

Pila Mulligan: yes, Steve
Pila Mulligan: what thought Paradise?
Paradise Tennant: pay the cat .. which i wrote down .. on a pad i had put by the bed .. then went back to sleep ..would have been about 4 am .. lol lol
Paradise Tennant: lol
Pila Mulligan: what do you associate it with?
Paradise Tennant: just makes me blinnk
Paradise Tennant: blink
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: is your landlord catty )
Paradise Tennant: lol
Paradise Tennant: no
Pila Mulligan: I bet you dream -- it is the remembering that take some effot at first
Paradise Tennant: yes a discipline to be able to hold on to it
Pila Mulligan: the pad and pen may be hjelpful, but I'd suggest don't jump right up, lay there and let the recolleciton congeal some first
Eos Amaterasu: I get the impression that we dream quite a lot, but don't remember most of them
Paradise Tennant: yes
Pila Mulligan: yes, I agree Eos
Paradise Tennant: maybe only the most vivid come through
Eos Amaterasu: and sometimes we can come at our already happening dream
Eos Amaterasu: reverie
Pila Mulligan: but similarly how much of the waking hours do we really keep in mind?
Paradise Tennant: sometimes I find if I am working on something complex I will wake up with the answer in my head
Paradise Tennant: not sure how it gets there
Pila Mulligan: forgetting seems to be the rule waking and dremaing
--BELL--
Pila Mulligan: it gets there by the function-ehancing, rejuvienating role of sleep/dreams
Pila Mulligan: maybe
Eos Amaterasu: Need to go...
Eos Amaterasu: Here's Blondie as young avatar doing "Dreaming": http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x60k3_blondie-dreaming-1979
Pila Mulligan: bye Eos
Eos Amaterasu: bye stevenaia, Paradise, Pila
stevenaia Michinaga: bye Eos, see you soon
Pila Mulligan: sweet dreams
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, dream time for me too
Paradise Tennant: ok nite nite steve ..eos sweet dreams
Pila Mulligan: bye Steve, seleep well
Pila Mulligan: pay the cat ...? :)
Paradise Tennant: lol
Pila Mulligan: I just rememebred one of my odd dreams
Paradise Tennant: cool
Pila Mulligan: I wonder if it is associative somehow
Pila Mulligan: I was with a young freind, kind of an adopted nephew, he is a good athlete
Pila Mulligan: he had won some medals at a track meet
Pila Mulligan: older people kept coming up to him and taking his medals from him
Pila Mulligan: he did not seem to mind and they seemed to treasure them - kind of as vicarious acocmpishmetns
Pila Mulligan: maybe they were the cats
Paradise Tennant: :)
Pila Mulligan: taking vicarious pride in someone elses awards
Paradise Tennant: hmm
Pila Mulligan: :0
Pila Mulligan: a stretch, but maybe is a big word
Paradise Tennant: :)
Pila Mulligan: do you have a cat, Paradise?
Paradise Tennant: no I like cats very well but I have severe allergy to them
Pila Mulligan: ah
Paradise Tennant: can die from exposure
Pila Mulligan: so you need to keep a little distance from them
Paradise Tennant: anaphalactic response
Paradise Tennant: sp
Pila Mulligan: anaphylaxis
Pila Mulligan: just looked t up
Paradise Tennant: yep bronchial tubes swell up been hospitalized on a couple of occassions ..blue lips
Pila Mulligan: yes, I understand
Pila Mulligan: it is much worse than some peopel imagine -- I have had simialr events
Paradise Tennant: yes funny lived with them for many years as a kid
Paradise Tennant: developed it as teenager
Pila Mulligan: sensitivity can be triggered at any age I've heard
Paradise Tennant: that was a lovely dream you had pila
Pila Mulligan: thanks, it seemed to be substaiantial and informative
Paradise Tennant: sometimes ... a vivid vivid dream can be life changing
Pila Mulligan: yes
Pila Mulligan: i rememeber my first vivid dream
Pila Mulligan: it was simple but memorable
Paradise Tennant: so you just tell yourself to remember it and you do
Paradise Tennant: I was trying last night
Pila Mulligan: after practie, but vivd dreams are like waking, you just have them
Paradise Tennant: I went to bed ..focused on the intention of doing a kind of loving kindness meditation .. for you three ..and ended up with feline book keeping :)
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: for me the first step to remembering dreams is to wake up slowly
Pila Mulligan: almost like voluntary sleep paralysis, juts lay there still
Pila Mulligan: and let the images come to you
Pila Mulligan: instead of chasing them
--BELL--
Paradise Tennant: hmm I do wake up slowing usually .. kind of lay still for a while ..then get up pad into the kitchen pour a cup of coffee and go back to bed to sip slowly .. and come to consciousness slowly
Pila Mulligan: I think the recollection oppoprtunity probably decreases as soon as you move yor body
Pila Mulligan: well, time for bed
Pila Mulligan: bye for now
Paradise Tennant: good nite pila ..may your dreams be arising :)
Pila Mulligan: thanks