2009.10.05 13:00 - Where does this dropping lead?

The Guardian for this meeting was Stim Morane. The comments are by Stim Morane.

Wol Euler: hello yakuzza
Yakuzza Lethecus: nabend wol :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: du momentan auch recht wenig zeit ?
Wol Euler nickt. Brutal wenig :(
--BELL--
Wol Euler: bis 2am Samstag, 1am Sonntag
Yakuzza Lethecus: wow, mehrere projekte ?
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey scath
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey gaya
Wol Euler: nee, dasselbe immer noch. etwa 3 tage noch, dann ist vorbei
Wol Euler: hello scath, gaya
Gaya Serendipity: Hello Yakuzza, Wol and Scath :)
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Wol, Yakuzza!
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey stim,arch
Wol Euler: hello stim, arch
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Stim, Arch!
Gaya Serendipity: Hello Stim and Archmage :)
Stim Morane: Hi Scathach, Gaya, Wol, Yakuzza, Arch!
Yakuzza Lethecus: nabend bertram
Yakuzza Lethecus: what is that riminder gaya ?
Yakuzza Lethecus: reminder
Archmage Atlantis: Yak, Wol, Stim, Scathach, Gaya, Hi all
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Bertram
Stim Morane: hi Bertram
Wol Euler: yes, I was just looking at that too :)
Bertram Jacobus: hello everybody ! ... :-)
Gaya Serendipity: Hello Bertram :)
Wol Euler: hello bertram
Gaya Serendipity: ah Stim asked for it. He mentioned he likes reminders.
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Stim Morane: wonderful
Gaya Serendipity: :D
Wol Euler: heheheheh
Gaya Serendipity: Stim it's my naughty samsaric mind that forces me to do these pranks.
Stim Morane: I did ask you to remind me ... although I haven't forgotten at all and was just about to IM you when I saw the reminder
Gaya Serendipity: :D it's just a joke ...
Gaya Serendipity glances sideway at Scath who refused to join in.
Scathach Rhiadra: :))
Gaya Serendipity: Can I ask a Q to everyone?
Wol Euler: sure
Scathach Rhiadra: yes
Bertram Jacobus: please ask
Archmage Atlantis: Twice daily and 3 times on weekends Gaya
Gaya Serendipity: I do only pauses in regards to PaB in general and never tried out 'playing as being' because I don't know really how to do that. Do any of you try PaB method?
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey pema
Gaya Serendipity: Hello Pema :)
Wol Euler: pema!
Bertram Jacobus: hello pema ... :-)
Archmage Atlantis: Hello Pema
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Pema
Pema Pera: Hi everyone!
Gaya Serendipity: Does any of you*
Stim Morane: hi Pema
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello bolonath
Wol Euler: hello bolo
Bertram Jacobus: namaste bolonath ! ... :-)
Gaya Serendipity: Hello Bolonath :)
Archmage Atlantis: lo Bolo
Bertram Jacobus: and hello sophia ! ... :-)
Pema Pera: did you start a topic already?
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello sophia
Gaya Serendipity: Hello sophia :)
sophia Placebo: hello all
Wol Euler: we haven't got past "hello" yet :)
Wol Euler: hello sophia
Archmage Atlantis: Sillyness seems to be the topic
Bertram Jacobus: nice question gaya ! what do you mean with "pab method" - something different to the 9 second pauses for example ? ...
Gaya Serendipity: Play as Being ...
Bertram Jacobus: Gaya Serendipity: I do only pauses in regards to PaB in general and never tried out 'playing as being' because I don't know really how to do that. Do any of you try PaB method?
Gaya Serendipity: I still am not sure what that involves ...
Pema Pera: the simplest way is "to drop what you have to see what you are"
Stim Morane: :)
Pema Pera: as the original suggestion I made for what to do during the9-seconds break
Gaya Serendipity: So ... Play as Being refers to the pauses then as in dropping? So I'm doing it right :)
Wol Euler: :)
Pema Pera: or more precisely "to loosen up a bit your identification with what you have, to get a chance to see more of what you really are"
Wol Euler: if it's working, then you are doing it right, whatever you actually do.
Pema Pera: :)
Pema Pera: and everyone explores in their own way, finding different things, which we can then report and compare and share
--BELL--
Wol Euler: to me it's mostly a habit of mind, a reminder not to take things (a) for granted or (b) too seriously
Stim Morane: good
Gaya Serendipity: What is the reminder Wol? Sorry I'm a bit slow tonight.
Yakuzza Lethecus: hello mary
Mary Korpov: hi
Wol Euler: hello mary, welcome back
Gaya Serendipity: Hello again Mary :)
Archmage Atlantis: Hi Mary
Stim Morane: hi Mary
Bolonath Crystal: hi mary
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello mary
Wol Euler: "drop what you think you see"
Gaya Serendipity: ah ok
Wol Euler: (I'm paraphrasing slightly)
Gaya Serendipity nods :)
Archmage Atlantis: Another way to do the same, is to become aware of what you are not focused on
sophia Placebo: hi mick
Gaya Serendipity: Hello Mick :)
Bertram Jacobus: hey mick ! ... :-)
Wol Euler: hello mick
Scathach Rhiadra: hello mick
Mickorod Renard: Hiya everyone
Bertram Jacobus: wet seat as it looks ... ;-)
Mickorod Renard: he he
Bertram Jacobus: now levitating ... great
Mickorod Renard: thats better
Archmage Atlantis: transcendental seating
Bertram Jacobus: and again - already past ... so fast ... ;-)
Pema Pera: so the "dropping" is not a denying or ignoring, but more a kind of loosening, or freeing up -- what I like to call freedom from identification
Pema Pera: we should not ignore our identities
Wol Euler nods
Mary Korpov: I came late, what are you dropping?
Pema Pera: but we also shouldn't be glued to them
Wol Euler: preconceptions, habits, received ideas...
Pema Pera: Mary, I talked about the PaB 9-sec break, as a way "to drop what you have to see what you are"
Mary Korpov: Those seem to be the essence of what humans are.
Wol Euler: blinkers that may get in the way of appreciating the world for what it is
Gaya Serendipity: So dropping = playing as being? Sorry for asking this type of questions now ... just have been thinking about it again after reading Pema/Stim dialogues.
Gaya Serendipity: I should really know better ... since been around for a while. >.<
Pema Pera: dropping in the sense of dropping being glued to it all
Pema Pera: dropping an automatic pilot mind set
Bertram Jacobus: i like it very much when people don´t fear so reasonable questions gaya (!) ...
Gaya Serendipity: ^^;;;
Pema Pera: it's always good to go back to the basics, Gaya!
Pema Pera: the idea of "beginner's mind"
Wol Euler: sure
Gaya Serendipity: So part of me playing [pretending?] as Being is to drop?
Pema Pera: well, the notion of Play as Being is richer than that, but an exploration can very well start with dropping (overly rigid identification with) what you have
Mary Korpov: I think that hte goal is to stop pretending that we have idenitities and realize that we are nothing but perceptions, habits, and sensibilities. It is all fleeting and the idea of a permanent identity is an illusion.
Bertram Jacobus: is the essence of pab wu wei ?
Pema Pera: Gaya, did you get a chance to read what I wrote a couple months ago on the wiki about Play as Being? http://playasbeing.wik.is/PaB_Books/Play_as_Being%3a_Freedom_from_Identification/Initial_Outline
Gaya Serendipity: mhm :)
Mary Korpov: What is wu wei?
Gaya Serendipity: Where does this dropping lead to Pema?
Pema Pera: perhaps, Mary, that would be one conclusion -- and an interesting conclusion to investigate further
--BELL--
Gaya Serendipity: What would one do once practice of dropping is well established and regular each day?
Mary Korpov: live
Stim Morane: :)
Gaya Serendipity: :)
Gaya Serendipity: Well I will stop being a pain :P
Bertram Jacobus: a word of taoism i guess. i understand it as a kind of state where one does nothing of ones own but one is part of all, acting with the universe so to say ...
Wol Euler: nonsense, gaya, ask away.
Bertram Jacobus: hello qt ... :-)
Gaya Serendipity: Hello Qt :)
Pema Pera: Gaya, I am not going to offer you ready-made answers to your questions, I'm afraid :-) There is no PaB party line. It is all about exploring, each for ourselves, adn then comparing and sharing what we find
Qt Core: hi all
sophia Placebo: hi Qt
Wol Euler: hello qt
Scathach Rhiadra: hello Qt
Mickorod Renard: Hi Qt
Stim Morane: hi Qt
Pema Pera: but your questions are all well taken, for sure! To be investigated experimentally, not theoretically
Gaya Serendipity: I just am asking freshly again what Playing as Being means ... but of course Pema I don't want any ready-made answers.
Archmage Atlantis: Qt *nod*
Gaya Serendipity: They will not be any good to me ...
Pema Pera: :-)
Pema Pera: so when you try to drop what you have, you can then report here what happens, and we can talk about it
Mickorod Renard: is it important to be regulated,,as in time slots,,or just regular breaks from the usual concentration of lifes toil?
Pema Pera: that would then address your questions most directly
Pema Pera: whatever you like, Mick :)
Pema Pera: whatever suits you
Pema Pera: as long as you are really involved and engaged
Wol Euler: it has to fit into your life, not hte other way around.
Mary Korpov: Wouldn't the best result of dropping be death?
Pema Pera: that is far more important than technique or details
sophia Placebo: would it be like exploring an answer to the question : would me be me if i was born in another country , another culture, with another parents ?
Mickorod Renard: I was thinking that i am not very good at this 9 second stuff,,but when I think about it I do take breaks to look around and enjoy
Wol Euler: nice, sophia!
Bertram Jacobus: nice idea to me mary ! ;-) ...
Pema Pera: nice approach, Sophia, yes! a kind of thought experiment -- also an experiment
Mary Korpov: You would not be you in that case; you are you because of the environment in which you grew up. You cannot be you unless you are you in context.
Mary Korpov: That was a strange sentence.
Wol Euler: "dropping" is about realizing that context.
Archmage Atlantis: Hmmmm...death of old preconceptions, leading to new enhanced life perhaps
Bertram Jacobus: hey ara ... :-)
Wol Euler: hello ara
Mickorod Renard: hi Ara
arabella Ella: Hiya
sophia Placebo: hi ara
Stim Morane: hi arabella
Archmage Atlantis: Hi Ara
Qt Core: and that mick make you wonder how many you you aren't
Gaya Serendipity: From my experiences of dropping ... wonder how does the awareness of self/selves relate to Being.
Mary Korpov: From my experience the ultimate dropping is non-being
sophia Placebo: im thinking of that question since my teens mary , not sure of the answer untill today , part of being in sl is to get closer to a sort of answer
Wol Euler nods
Gaya Serendipity: I'm not sure if that's possible Mary. I feel that I am still bound to this reality.
Mary Korpov: I'm not sure I stated that very well. I suppose the logical conclusion would be that we should all just commit suicide, but that isn't really what I mean.
Gaya Serendipity: Possible in totality ...
Gaya Serendipity: I feel I still have to work with what I have ie body, mind etc
Mary Korpov: For me, the beauty of SL is its unreality. It reminds me that RL is the same thing, just an illusion with fleeting identities passing but with little known reality behind them
Wol Euler: I disagree about suicide, but agree with that last thought, mary :)
Archmage Atlantis: Non-being as not tied to reality then, Mary?
Pema Pera: yes, that is one of the eye openers of SL, Mary
Mary Korpov: You favor suicide, Wol?
Mary Korpov: I suppose, Armchair
Wol Euler: no, on the contrary. I meant that I don't think it is the ultimate or logical conclusion.
Gaya Serendipity: O.o logically we all need to kill ourselves? *shudder*
Wol Euler: I think that dropping preconceptions is a good way to start to live.
Mary Korpov: Why does killing oneself bring a shudder?
Gaya Serendipity: I simply can't do it.
Wol Euler: ((ooh, full circle again! bonus karma points for us all))
Mary Korpov: I don't think I can either, but it is odd that we fear death so much
Gaya Serendipity: :D
Gaya Serendipity: Can't kill myself doesn't equal to fear of death Mary.
Bolonath Crystal: if life is in any way unreal, also death is
Mary Korpov: agreed
Archmage Atlantis: If one sees death as an end, or a future life of punishment, perhaps.......but if death is only part of the cycle of existence, then why fear
Qt Core: for less blodthirsty ;-) people does a full life retreat would be enough ?
Mickorod Renard: I am quite enjoying life at the moment
Mary Korpov: I'm not sure what reality is, but I have a strong feeling that I'm inventing it as I go along
Mary Korpov: Anyone ever had the experience of having the world just seem to disolve around you
Mickorod Renard: I have lots of time to be dead
Wol Euler: how do you know, mick? perhaps you'll only be gone for a nanosecond before reincarnating?
Archmage Atlantis: I have had 3 near death experiences in traumas
Mary Korpov: You should be more careful
Mickorod Renard: well, a nonosecond in death may last a deathtime
Wol Euler: :)
Pema Pera: (Gaya, would you like to try to drop what you have, to see how it goes, during the next 90-sec pause?)
Pema Pera: (and everyone who likes to do so)
Wol Euler: good idea!
--BELL--
Bolonath Crystal: i believe, that the world is a projection of the mind. when someone dies, not the "real self" dies; only the projection stops. but mind will immidiately start to create another one. the divine power of our true self is the power of creation
Gaya Serendipity: First ... should go to be after this and get over this nagging cold. Second ... need to talk to my judge before I fall asleep.
Mary Korpov: I don't think we have minds, only brains
Wol Euler: "judge"?
Gaya Serendipity: mhm :)
Wol Euler: o.O
Gaya Serendipity: My inner critic/judge.
Wol Euler: aaaah.
Stim Morane: :)
arabella Ella: oh poor Gaya wish you a speedy recovery :)
Mickorod Renard: I find the 90 second thing a bit scary
Gaya Serendipity: Rather than 'appreciating' the dialogues, I also had the judge tagging along, it seems.
Wol Euler: goodnight and gute besserung!
Mary Korpov: I was wondering if anyone had had the experience of the world disolving around them. Maybe not. I have had it often. Just did.
Mickorod Renard: nite Gaya
Pema Pera: can you try to appreciate the judge, Gaya?
Yakuzza Lethecus: nite gaya
sophia Placebo: night gaya
Gaya Serendipity: Will go soon :P
Wol Euler: mary, in what way?
Gaya Serendipity: Of course, I like her because she's useful.
arabella Ella: why the red flag Gaya ...
Mary Korpov: It just disolves
Archmage Atlantis: Pema asks you a good question Gaya
Mary Korpov: It seems to lose structure and formation
Mickorod Renard: I feel a little of that too mary, I think thats why I hold on during the 90 second thing
Mickorod Renard: rather than let drop
Mary Korpov: I have it happen often, sometimes when I am in a place filled with people. I try to let it expand, but letting go
Pema Pera: (sorry, RL calling, have to leave -- good seeing y'all and don't let me interrupt)
Wol Euler: bye pema, take care
Mickorod Renard: bye Pema
sophia Placebo: bye pema
Mary Korpov: bye
arabella Ella: nite Pema
Scathach Rhiadra: good night Pema
Stim Morane: bye Pema
Gaya Serendipity: Bye Pema
Gaya Serendipity: Well I should go too. Have a good day/night everyone :)
Mickorod Renard: nite Gaya
Scathach Rhiadra: good night gaya, be well:)
Stim Morane: bye, Gaya
Archmage Atlantis: Muted tho I may be, goodnight Gaya
Wol Euler: I'm not sure if it's the same thing that you describe, Mary, but the world falls away entirely when I get into flow states
Wol Euler: no sound, no body, no pencil or computer, hardly even a "me" doing the work
Mary Korpov: Maybe it is the same thing. It just happens to me, I don't try to do it normally
Mary Korpov: Then it is different. For me it is an intense awareness that everything around me is unreal
Wol Euler: ah :)
arabella Ella: when does that happen Mary?
arabella Ella: in particular circumstances?
arabella Ella: or randomly?
Mary Korpov: Just happens. Sometimes ithappens when I'm bored, other times when I'm focused on something.
arabella Ella: is it a pleasant feeling?
Mary Korpov: It usued to happen a lot when I was in school. I can't really see anything, but I remember everything that happens around me
Mary Korpov: It is neither pleasant nor unpleasant
Mickorod Renard: in this case, what do you see that is real Mary?
Mary Korpov: I don't think anthing is real, Mick
Bertram Jacobus: what does that men : "real" and "unreal" please to you ?
Bertram Jacobus: mean
Mickorod Renard: mmm..I suppose that is another reason I like to hang onto what I percieve as real
Mary Korpov: Nothing, really. I don't see any difference between real and unreal.
Mary Korpov: But when my construction of the world disolves, I am aware that real and unreal are, well, not real
Wol Euler: hello rol
arabella Ella: Hiya Rol
Stim Morane: hi Rol
--BELL--
Mickorod Renard: Hi Rol
sophia Placebo: for me everything is real , except one time i felt something similar to what you felt mary
Mary Korpov: Sometimes when this happens I start laughing uncontrollably as I realize how silly it all is
sophia Placebo: :)
Bertram Jacobus: to me real and unreal don´t mean something special, too ...
arabella Ella: but Mary, how can I say that the headache I am now feeling is not real?
arabella Ella: (wish I could)
Mary Korpov: It's all in your head
Stim Morane: Must go ...
arabella Ella: nite Stim
sophia Placebo: bye stim
Wol Euler: bye stim, take care.
Stim Morane: bye everyone!
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye
Scathach Rhiadra: goood night Stim
arabella Ella: but does it being in my head make it any less real ... any less felt?
Mickorod Renard: bye Stim
Mary Korpov: If you realize that it isn't there, it will go away
Scathach Rhiadra: good bye all, Namasté
arabella Ella: nite Scath
sophia Placebo: bye scath
Wol Euler: 'night scath, take care
Mickorod Renard: bye scath
Bertram Jacobus: bye scath
Wol Euler: the purists would say that the outside world is in your head too, ara. so it's just as real as anything else you can name
Bolonath Crystal: it is like having a dream. the things we dream aren't real, but there is really a dream. and as long as i am involved in the dream, it feels pretty real
arabella Ella: sounds like idealism in philosophy to me
Mary Korpov: Most of the time, I never laugh or smile, but when the world disolves I tend to laugh for a long time.
Mary Korpov: I must go.
sophia Placebo: bye mary
Mickorod Renard: nite Mary
Wol Euler: 'night mary, take care
Wol Euler marvels rather sadly as the thought that somebody might never smile or laugh.
arabella Ella: yes
Mickorod Renard: ok guys, I have to go too,..(yes Wol)
Wol Euler: 'night mick, sleep well
sophia Placebo: bye mick
arabella Ella: nite Mick
Bolonath Crystal: nite mick
Mickorod Renard: ty,,nite all
Wol Euler: don't get caught in your parachute cords
Qt Core: bye mick
Mickorod Renard: he he
arabella Ella: :)
arabella Ella: i must go too
arabella Ella: nite everyone!
sophia Placebo: bye ara
Wol Euler: 'nite ara
Bolonath Crystal: nite ara
Bolonath Crystal: nite @ all, om shanti
sophia Placebo: bye bolo
Wol Euler: goodnight bolo, take care
Yakuzza Lethecus: night everyone
Qt Core: night Bolonath
Bertram Jacobus: ui. nacht bolo ...
Wol Euler: and then there were five,
sophia Placebo: 3 german
Yakuzza Lethecus: yeah, i was in chat with bertram about the method to fly to matla
Wol Euler: :)
Bertram Jacobus: countdown ? ... ;-)
Qt Core: more or less awake ;-)
Yakuzza Lethecus: so we are going through the possibility to take a air malta flight
Wol Euler: if I had the time, I would love to go by sea.
Yakuzza Lethecus: hehe :)
Bertram Jacobus: i´ll take the flights from sunday to sunday. it´s cheapest. so some time will be left to see the sea at least a bit ... to sit at it, to walk around ... i´ll or we´ll see ... :-)
Wol Euler nods
sophia Placebo: night , see you tommorrow
Yakuzza Lethecus: ngith sophia
Bertram Jacobus: good night sophia
Wol Euler: goodnight sophia, sleep well
Yakuzza Lethecus: is anything cheap on malta ? :P
Yakuzza Lethecus: i don´t smoke and i don´t drink
Wol Euler: :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: and ipod´s and iphone´s are for usa trips which i don´t do
Yakuzza Lethecus: or clothing is very cheap in new york
Wol Euler: you can probably get a good deal on Maltesers ;-)
Yakuzza Lethecus: lol
--BELL--
Yakuzza Lethecus: but i don´t drink other alcohol then beer sometimes
Yakuzza Lethecus: ah, candy ?
Wol Euler: mmhmm :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: i ignore chat silence since i really need bedtime
Wol Euler: but also a breed of dogs, it says here.
Yakuzza Lethecus: good night everyone
Wol Euler: gute nacht, schlaf gut.
Bertram Jacobus: gute nacht yaku :-)
Bertram Jacobus: three ... ;-)
Wol Euler: heheheheh
Wol Euler looks around suspiciously. One of us...
Qt Core: killed the others with an invisible weapon ?
Bertram Jacobus: lol :o)
Wol Euler: :)
Wol Euler: there's a party game like that, where one person is secretly assigned to be murderer, and kills others by winkng at them
Wol Euler: the others have to watch to try to catch him at it, but also to avoid being winked at!
Bertram Jacobus: hm. don´t understand that ...
Wol Euler: well, we have 16 people sitting in a circle.
Wol Euler: we distribute some secret way of selecting one person, so that the others won't know who it is.
Wol Euler: like everyone gets a scrap of paper folded up tight, in one scrap is a dot.
Wol Euler: everyone looks around thte circle, hoping to see somebody wink at someone else.
Wol Euler: if I'm the murderer, say, I would choose a moment when everyone is looking away, and catch your eye and wink at you.
Wol Euler: you would wait a few seconds and then announce that you have died.
Bertram Jacobus: ahh !
Bertram Jacobus: okay ! ... :-)
Wol Euler: it's more fun than it sounds :)
Qt Core: me having just a little eye muscle deficit would be an advantage ;-)
Wol Euler: :)
Bertram Jacobus: lololol
Bertram Jacobus: but i´m tired now, too - so i´ll leave - have a good time all ! *wink* :o)
Qt Core: ;-) night bertram
Wol Euler: ack!
Wol Euler: goodnight bert
Wol Euler: I should go too. goodnight, qt, take care
Qt Core: ok, sleeptime for me to i suppose
Wol Euler: buona sera