2009.10.15 13:00 - Throwing starfish and the humble vehicle

The Guardian for this meeting was Storm Nordwind. The comments are by Storm Nordwind.

Wol Euler: thursday 15 october, 1pm
Wol Euler: hello storm
--BELL--
Storm Nordwind: Hi
Wol Euler: how are you?
Storm Nordwind: Intensely busy!
Qt Core: hi
Storm Nordwind: Hi Qt
Wol Euler: hello qt
Wol Euler: better busy than bored, though?
Wol Euler: (assuming you believe in boredom)
Storm Nordwind: I don't recall that I have ever been bored
Wol Euler grins
Storm Nordwind: You must know me well!
Wol Euler: heheheheh
Wol Euler: actually I think we do know each other at a fairly deep level here
Wol Euler: general "we", not just us.
Storm Nordwind: Yes, and I'm grateful for that
Wol Euler: I don't know your favourite meal or your preferred beverage, nor your shoesize, but I know quite a bit about your soul and your thoughts
Storm Nordwind: You probably know that I don't have favourites too then!
Wol Euler laughs
Qt Core: wondering how different are the person we seems/are here and the person people get in rl (both in a good and in a bad sense)
Wol Euler: ask someone who was at the retreat :)
Storm Nordwind: I love meeting people from SL in RL. The retreat was a great example of that
Wol Euler: I've met friends from SL, and also blogging buddies whom I know from their LiveJournals or whatever
Wol Euler: and without exception the RL person was exactly the same as the SL one.
Storm Nordwind: That is either a great credit to your SL perception... or... you're being modest about your RL perception
Wol Euler: (this may say as much about the way I choose my friends, as about the relation between RL and SL)
Wol Euler: and perhaps I choose to overlook certain things, points at which the suspension of disbelief might crack a spring.
Storm Nordwind chuckles
Storm Nordwind: Like wings for example ;)
Wol Euler: well, you may laugh but some of the winged SL people I met have wings in RL too!
Wol Euler: lemme find you a URL on flickr...
Storm Nordwind remembers the halloween costume parties he's been to
Storm Nordwind: I like "suspension of disbelief might crack a spring". Is that an original Wolism? :)
Wol Euler: afraid so :)
Qt Core: a sl friends has pic of me with pink frilly me... and still blackmail me with it ;-)
Qt Core: me=wings
Wol Euler: http://www.flickr.com/photos/6239688...ol-fracturecon
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
Wol Euler: hello yakuzza
Yakuzza Lethecus: anyone knows whats the matter with the client ?
Qt Core: hey yak!
Storm Nordwind: That's OK. My old pagan group in East Anglia used to hold annual Yule pantomimes. I remember I was always typecast... as a pantomime dame. So I was Dorothy in the Warlock of Oz
Wol Euler laughs
Wol Euler: I would love to have seen that.
Wol Euler: yak, there's been a server software upgrade and all regions rebooted, it may be that rather than your client
Qt Core: what's happening with the client, yak (you toke a while to materialize)
Yakuzza Lethecus: i coulnd´t even use the standart client to log in anymore
Yakuzza Lethecus: update or shut down
Yakuzza Lethecus: so i use hippo client right now
Wol Euler: aaah, that! there is a compulsory upgrade, because of the server upgrade
Wol Euler: hello pema!
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey pema
Qt Core: hello Pema
Pema Pera: hi everyone (while sloooooowly rezzing . . . .)
Yakuzza Lethecus: where did you grow up wol ?
Wol Euler: in Canada, in Toronto
Qt Core: i'm enjoying seeing the white one dividing the black wearing ones and the coloured dressed ;-)
Wol Euler: :)
Storm Nordwind is glad he logged on early. Or tried to. He needed extra time to download and install the new client.
Pema Pera: yes, me too, ennoying -- they used to give you time to do so
Wol Euler nods.
Pema Pera: but today you had no choice
Pema Pera: SL has been rather slow for me the last couple days . . . .
--BELL--
Bertram Jacobus: hi everybody ! ... :-)
Qt Core: hi bert
Wol Euler: hello bertram
Storm Nordwind: Hi Bertram
Yakuzza Lethecus: nabend bert :)
Bertram Jacobus: hehe ;-)
Pema Pera: hi Bert!
Bertram Jacobus: ty all for the as mostly so kind greetings ... :-)
Storm Nordwind chuckles
Bertram Jacobus: did you already have a topic ?
Storm Nordwind: No serious topic yet; mostly social.
Wol Euler: about wings and springs and flirty pink
Bertram Jacobus: social ! in european ears that sounds quite serious ! ;-)
Storm Nordwind disowns that part of the conversation
Storm Nordwind: Ah Bert, we are not talking about beer... or politics!
Bertram Jacobus: hehe. nooo - i understood ...
Bertram Jacobus: and nicely said wol ! ;o)
Wol Euler: :)

I encourage Bert to seed us with conversation topics. He's so very often good at that.

Storm Nordwind: But very often, you bring a question that becomes a topic Bert. What do you have for us today?
Bertram Jacobus: was only a shy try to lead the conversation to the perhaps not so unimportant aspect of social questions - also in relation to spirituality may be ... ;-)
Wol Euler: sure, why not :) Fire away.
Storm Nordwind is all ears
Pema Pera too
Bertram Jacobus: for example - here in germany there is a movement which is called "social buddhism" (!) ...
Bertram Jacobus: and roshi bernie glassman is one of the famous actors of that section of practise for example ... - somebody knows him ?
Bertram Jacobus: he´s american
Pema Pera: yes, I frequented his zen cernter for a few years in the early eighties in New York City
Storm Nordwind knows almost no actors of any nationality
Storm Nordwind: Is this the same, Bert, as http://www.lotussangha.org ?
Bertram Jacobus: no storm i don´t think so. bernie is a zen monk ...
Pema Pera: he was a student of Maezumi, of ZCLA
Bertram Jacobus: and i often think about a sentence "first you have to eat, then you can practise" - versus : "it was never heard, that somebody who practises, died from hunger" ...
Storm Nordwind: I have heard both, yes
Bertram Jacobus: :-))
Wol Euler: not necessarily a contradiction!
Pema Pera: :)
Bertram Jacobus: nice ! and i think, these describe only various approaches ? the one : doing and developing and the other aiming from the beginning to the highest aime ...
Bertram Jacobus: how would you link both wol ?
Wol Euler: link? only in the sense that both can be true. They might not be true for one person at one time though.
Wol Euler: someone who is desperately hungry will be unable to free his/her mind
Pema Pera: In Europe at least, socialism is not exactly about people who are about to starve, though . . . .
Wol Euler: someone who has achieved clarity of perception and understanding will *probably* be able to organize their life well
--BELL--
Storm Nordwind: The second statement is often meant to imply that if you have sufficient 'merit' to have come across 'The Path', you will have sufficient merit to have come under the care of the path's guardians. Because of that, you will not starve.
Wol Euler: that may amount to the same thing :)
Pema Pera: But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. -- Matthe 6:33
Wol Euler nods
Pema Pera: *Matthew 6:33
Pema Pera: (sermon of the mount)
Storm Nordwind: Yes, a Christian example

Throwing starfish, and a personal revelation for Bert.

Bertram Jacobus: "but" - facing the actual situation, where more than one billion of people starves - would you in this situation understand a person who says meditation is the most important thing, one can do ?
Storm Nordwind: I remember a story about something like that...
Storm Nordwind: A boy was walking along a beach full of starfish stranded by the tide...
Storm Nordwind: thousands of them looked as though they were about to die...
Storm Nordwind: and he began throwing them into the sea, one by one...
Storm Nordwind: A passer-by asked him why he was doing it...
Storm Nordwind: after all... with all those thousands, it was not really going to make a difference...
Storm Nordwind: The boy threw another one in and said, "It made a difference to that one."
Wol Euler remembers Gandhi: "Whatever you do will be insignificant, but it is vitally important that you do it."
Pema Pera: the Christians have another very short answer: "ora et labora" : pray and work
Bertram Jacobus: yes. and that again brings up the question to me : could anyone say : what is more important : to meditate or to throw the fish back to the water ?
Storm Nordwind: Can you not do the two at the same time??!!
Bertram Jacobus: fantastic ! great stom. solved for me ty :-)
Wol Euler laughs
Bertram Jacobus: laughs too here :-))
Qt Core: could meditation give you the inspiration on how to throw the fissh back better/faster
Bertram Jacobus: storm gave the answer qt - and i would like to add : yes ;o)
Storm Nordwind: I know several meditation techniques that you can do while still going about your daily business. And if you are practising Play as Being, you would still have 99% of your time left for throwing! ;)
Wol Euler laughs again.
Bertram Jacobus: and the notion from pema expressed the same i think ... the ora et labora ... which i like very much already since a long time ...
Pema Pera: now if you dance and sing while throwing the starfish, you can combine all that with several art forms as well
Storm Nordwind laughs
Pema Pera: *and* you probably lower your cholesterol, working out that way
Bertram Jacobus: better quote, not notion ... *grmbl* :o)

The seductive binary.

Wol Euler: I wonder why we so often tend to see life in binary opposites that exclude each other. Either pray or throw fish back.
Bertram Jacobus: i think THERE IS a basis which is binary or at least a legitim view of that kind ...
Bertram Jacobus: also called duality
Bertram Jacobus: 1 and 0
Bertram Jacobus: on and off
Bertram Jacobus: night and day
Bertram Jacobus: and so on
Bertram Jacobus: up and down ...
Wol Euler: charmed and strange
Pema Pera: different people feel a different kind of calling (today I'm in a Christian mode, it seems: in Christian monastic traditions there is a division between the more contemplative traditions and the more going-out-into-the-world traditions)
Storm Nordwind remembers being in a workshop with a pair of psycholgists, one of whom said, "Storm, you're very intellectual. Perhaps you should try to be more intuitive," and another, minutes later, who said, "Storm, you're very intuitive. Perhaps you should try to be more intellectual." It never occured to them!
Wol Euler: :)
Bertram Jacobus: but for sure, many many many compositions of that and possibilities to see or to play with them ... ;-)
--BELL--
arabella Ella: Hiya
Bertram Jacobus: hi ara ... :-)
Wol Euler: hello ara
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey area
Yakuzza Lethecus: ara
Pema Pera: Hi Arabella!
Qt Core: hi ara
Bertram Jacobus: lol yaku - nice typo :o)
arabella Ella: he he
Wol Euler: you are in a very christianly mode today, pema, what triggered that?
Storm Nordwind types very carefully "Hi arabella!"
Pema Pera: next time try "aria"!
Pema Pera: no idea, Wol -- ah, of course, it must be grace!
Bertram Jacobus: phunny :o)
Pema Pera: :)
Wol Euler: :)
Pema Pera: but I am always happy to see that every real insight can be found in all traditions
Wol Euler nods
Pema Pera: making the sectarian struggles seem even more pathetic . . . .
Pema Pera: no-self in Buddhism is different in initial direction from higher self in Hinduism, but I can't imagine that those who really deeply go along either path will not hit upon the reality of things . . . .
Pema Pera: I respect and appreciate the differences in starting points, but I refuse to believe that one path as such is right and the other is wrong
Wol Euler: non-binary again :)

The humble vehicle.

Storm Nordwind: Yet there's still so much snobbery between schools. I was accused the other day, by a Buddhist nun, for bringing into a discussion a "lower order school" view of emptiness. She neither understood my point nor showed compassion or understanding for the other school (in my view)
Bertram Jacobus: what means lower order school please ?
Pema Pera: both notions can be easily misunderstood, no-self and higher-self, and in fact, *all* notions are initiatlly misunderstood, and then you practice exactly in order to get a better deeper understanding
Pema Pera: yes, Storm, I know the experience :)
Storm Nordwind: Some schools of thought classify ideas into lower, middle and higher schools. Guess what? The person speaking is ALWAYS in the higher school!
Pema Pera: hehehe
Wol Euler: heh
Bertram Jacobus: hehe. ah now i know ty :-)
Bertram Jacobus: anutara yoga and such ... :o)
Pema Pera: shall we call PaB the miniscule vehicle?
Storm Nordwind laughs
Wol Euler: heheheheh
Bertram Jacobus: anutara tantra sry
Storm Nordwind: That's wonderful Pema!!!
Pema Pera: the moped way to enlightenment
Storm Nordwind laughs
Bertram Jacobus: lol. i would vote with yes :o)
Pema Pera: unicycle?
Wol Euler: this has the makings of a great t-shirt :)
Bertram Jacobus: the bobby car way :o)
Pema Pera: roller blade . . . .
Wol Euler: unicycle its well, doing something that seems impossible
Pema Pera: and seemingly very simple!
Wol Euler: an elephant riding a unicycle.
Pema Pera: with few moving parts . . . .
Pema Pera: :)
Wol Euler: in honour of our frequently used metaphor
Storm Nordwind realises he will have to comment the log to explain this to people who haven't heard of the ***yanas

And here is the explanation! Original Buddhism quickly bifurcated into two main schools. The older school is still recognisable as Theravada, the way of the Elders, and was tightly bound up with the monastic way of life. The newer school tried to make enlightenment accessible to the greater masses and became known as Mahayana, the great vehicle, designed to carry those masses. By projection, the disputed and possibly derogatory term used by Mahayanists for Theravada became Hinayana, the small vehicle. Later still came Vajrayana, the diamond vehicle, most commonly associated in the west with Tibetan Buddhism. Here, Pema is suggested that, by similar classification, Play as Being (though not Buddhism as such) might go in the opposite direction of increasing grandeur and have the even more modest title of miniscule vehicle!

Pema Pera: hmmm, how about a banaa peel? Another way to get a rather unexpected "moving experience" !
Storm Nordwind chuckles
Bertram Jacobus: lol - i´ll leave again - ty - may all beings be as happy as the round here at the moment ... :-))
Wol Euler: :)
Storm Nordwind: Great to see you Bert
Wol Euler: bye bert, take care
Qt Core: bye bert
Bertram Jacobus: ty again :-)
--BELL--
Storm Nordwind: Is Stim not doing WoK today Pema?
Wol Euler: vic thinks so :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: he´s away but we do the session
Storm Nordwind: I see
arabella Ella: yes we are on skype
arabella Ella: ith voice
Yakuzza Lethecus: yeah
arabella Ella: with voice
Pema Pera: he's on his way to Princeton :)
arabella Ella: multitasking
Storm Nordwind: Right!
Pema Pera: see you all soon again
Wol Euler: bye pema, take care.
Qt Core: bye pema
Wol Euler: see you tomorrow :)
Storm Nordwind: Bye Pema. Watch the peels!
Pema Pera: yes!
Pema Pera: bugs or no bugs
Wol Euler: mmhmm
arabella Ella: bye pema
Pema Pera: bfn
Storm Nordwind: There are some people in the Cafe. I wonder if they all know
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye here for now
arabella Ella: ok ty storm i will go there now
arabella Ella: bye all
Storm Nordwind: Bye ara!
Wol Euler is reminded of a joke from my days in a computer company. Fred was off sick, someone phoned to talk to him. Jim took the phone and said "no, sorry, he's got a bug". Someone shouted across the room, "yeah, but he'll be fixed in the next release!"
Storm Nordwind: And I will say farewell to my European friends and work on the Museum model again for a while
Wol Euler: bye storm, build well
Storm Nordwind: Good one Wol!
Wol Euler: we laughed :)
Storm Nordwind recalls how to know whether you have a Klingon on your team
Wol Euler: mmm?
Qt Core: bye storm
Storm Nordwind: Software is never 'released'. It escapes! Leaving a bloody trail of testers and QA personnel in its wake.
Qt Core: like we sayd to our colleague that had a paraglide accident... he got a system crash
Wol Euler laughs!
Storm Nordwind: Bye!
Wol Euler: bfn
Wol Euler: I should go too, things to do at my dance hall :)
Wol Euler: got to get it looking nice
Qt Core: ok, have fun, i'm heading to bed, i think
Wol Euler: also a good idea :)
Wol Euler: goodnight qt, take care
Qt Core: 'night