2009.10.24 13:00 - We need each other's magic

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    The Guardian for this meeting was SophiaSharon Larnia. The comments are by SophiaSharon Larnia. During this session, we discussed Halloween, appearance and magic. It was punctuated by both silliness and seriousness, with an interesting expoloration by Pila and Eliza at the end.


    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Eliza
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi SophiaSharon :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: what a great outfit!!
    Eliza Madrigal: Thank you :) I love this film
    Eliza Madrigal: All well with you?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Gaya :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Gaya!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes, you??? What film is that?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Eliza and SophiaSharon :)
    Eliza Madrigal: My Fair Lady :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: oh hello my fair lady :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles
    Eliza Madrigal: The girls and I are pretty big into musicals... or used to be. Not so much lately :)
    Gaya Ethaniel mouths ... "The rain ... in Spain ... stays mainly ... in the plain."
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe
    SophiaSharon Larnia: me not knowing that is no reflection on the dress, its really nice
    SophiaSharon Larnia: lol
    SophiaSharon Larnia: its rare that i can get into a musical :)
    Eliza Madrigal: the ouftit makes me feel pretty dramatic, must say
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Eos!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Eos
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Eos :)
    Eos Amaterasu: HI Bunny, Eliza (with some hat!), SophiaSharon
    Eliza Madrigal grins, Thanks :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i have such a mind set on 'no drama' that i forgot it was used in that context ;p
    Gaya Ethaniel: Who designed this dress? Was it Yves Saint Laurent?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: laughs
    Eos Amaterasu: Yves SL
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hehe
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: HI Pila :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Pila :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Pila :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I bought this dress on "The Titanic" here in SL, btw
    Eliza Madrigal: hahahah
    Pila Mulligan: hi Sharon, Eliza, Gaya and Eos
    Eos Amaterasu: dramatic = emo ?
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Pila
    Gaya Ethaniel: lm puleez Eliza
    SophiaSharon Larnia: oh wow Im going to have to see that Eliza!
    Eos Amaterasu: an iceberg sale?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ;p
    Eliza Madrigal: Sure... just a dancing place mainly... :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: oh i thought the build would be interesting :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: ty, hope they don't eject furries.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: lol
    Eliza Madrigal: So, no drma SSharon?
    Eliza Madrigal: *drama
    SophiaSharon Larnia: that kind of drama, an avatar, speaks less to me about drama, than what i like and showing my personality in a visual way in sl


    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes i get enough drama at work *jazz hands*
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah :) hahaha
    SophiaSharon Larnia: giggles
    Gaya Ethaniel: What's 'jazz hands'?
    Eliza Madrigal giggles and looks forward to that description
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hmm a dance move i think , where the hands are extended on either side in a dramatic way with dance steps
    Gaya Ethaniel imagines ...
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Qt :)
    Pila Mulligan: hi Qt
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Qt :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Qt
    Qt Core: hi all
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi QT
    Gaya Ethaniel: Is it like something one does at 'ta da'?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: sometimes our occupations is like putting on a costume
    Eliza Madrigal nods to Gaya
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes! sort of Gaya :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Steve :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah ... ok :)
    Pila Mulligan: hi Steve
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello stevenaia :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Steve
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello
    Qt Core: hi stevenaia
    Eos Amaterasu: theme for the next week (including halloween):
    Eos Amaterasu: [13:12] SophiaSharon Larnia: sometimes our occupations is like putting on a costume
    Gaya Ethaniel: SophiaSharon, you're funny :P
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I am :P
    Gaya Ethaniel: :D
    Eliza Madrigal: yes certainly, re the costumes
    SophiaSharon Larnia: that was supposed to be a question lol
    Eos Amaterasu: whatever we're occupied with we dress ourselves with
    Gaya Ethaniel: Wonder if that's unavoidable to some extent.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes halloween is a weird holiday
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Ive been trying to figure out what place it has, what it means
    Gaya Ethaniel: I don't get Halloween, what is it all about?
    Eliza Madrigal: Sometimes hyperbolizing roles actually can free us from them a bit... loosen them
    SophiaSharon Larnia: other than a pagan remenant
    SophiaSharon Larnia: remnant*
    stevenaia Michinaga: A holiday for dentists?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: haha yes
    Eos Amaterasu: Tense in order to relax (to Eliza): hyperbolizing roles
    Eliza Madrigal nods, yes
    Gaya Ethaniel: Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood ... getting ready to go trick/treat.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ive been thinking its one way to face the more negative aspects of being, mortality in a physical sense, but this is a stretch about halloween)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: just seeing the weirdness in the holiday
    Eliza Madrigal: Well, it can be so many things. I'm not sure I'd think about it much if not for having kids, but many of the rituals are fun in that context :)
    Eos Amaterasu: What is it about Halloween, SophiaSharon, that you are hooked by?
    Gaya Ethaniel searches 'Halloween' on wiki ...
    Pila Mulligan: hi Bolonath
    SophiaSharon Larnia: not hooked, actually like Eliza, Id barely notice, if it wasnt for the decorations everywhere on peoples houses
    Bolonath Crystal: namaste @ all :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Bolonath
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bolonath :)
    Eos Amaterasu: HI bolonath
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Bolonath :)
    Qt Core: hi bolonath
    Eos Amaterasu: More dressing up
    SophiaSharon Larnia: it does seem like an obliquelol
    SophiaSharon Larnia: whoops
    Gaya Ethaniel: Interesting ... so you read ghost stories during Halloween?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Summer is more suited for that :)
    Qt Core: not having anyone in the right age group and having Carnevale for the dressing up i can't really get halloween (if not for the commercial part)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: one way to approach the subject of death, in a way
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :) Qt
    stevenaia Michinaga: storms coming here, I must go
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Steven
    Eos Amaterasu: summer's end, winter's beguine
    Gaya Ethaniel: Bye stevenaia :)
    Eliza Madrigal: wow, raining everywhere today
    SophiaSharon Larnia: oh, here to Steve, take care
    Pila Mulligan: bye Steve
    Gaya Ethaniel: So Halloween can be meaningful ...
    Qt Core: sun here, at last
    SophiaSharon Larnia: so some, i guess :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: to*
    Eos Amaterasu: approaching November, the darkest month of the year
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, sure, anything can. The idea of festivals of the dead/honoring the dead, etc
    Gaya Ethaniel nods.
    Eos Amaterasu: having trickery in there ... ?¿
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes interesting that this exists in the usa, this honoring of a pagan new year
    Eliza Madrigal: Its a fun way to meet the neighbors too :)
    Eos Amaterasu: super-commercialized, like christmas
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: Commercialism makes many things needlessly tedious
    Eos Amaterasu: sometimes the whole city gets into it
    Eos Amaterasu: then it creates an atmosphere
    Qt Core: even more as so few knows about the paganism in it
    Gaya Ethaniel: I had no idea ... Halloween isn't so big in UK.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: commercialism, the halloween decorations sitting next to the thanksgiving, and christmas ones, on the shelves in stores
    Eliza Madrigal nods... lots of pressure
    Eliza Madrigal: unless one is really aware, perhpas?
    Gaya Ethaniel: I guess in big cities, people wouldn't necessary go about the neighbourhoods as much as suburbs?
    Eliza Madrigal: to make the small and simple things count
    Eos Amaterasu: the interesting thing is when some kind of common "sense", presence, arises, maybe only seemingly, in a group, community
    Eos Amaterasu: these kinds of events sometimes do that
    Eliza Madrigal nods yes that's a nice way to look at it :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes, impotant to take care what kind of presence is arisne in that sense
    SophiaSharon Larnia: arisen*
    Eos Amaterasu: "though he thinks he's in a play, he is anyway" - Beatles
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: very strange
    Eos Amaterasu: It's nice when there's a sense of "magic", in a way that rings true
    SophiaSharon Larnia: brb
    Eliza Madrigal: true magic, hmm
    Eos Amaterasu: wasn't there true magic just now, isn't there just now?
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: RL calls, nice seeing you all.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: the eyes like shutters, clicking on another view of what is there
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Eliza Madrigal considers
    Pila Mulligan: hu Bertram, bye Gaya
    Bolonath Crystal: namaste bert
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Gaya
    Bolonath Crystal: bye gaya
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Gaya, Hi Bert :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: HI Bertram
    Bertram Jacobus: good evening all (from germany) ... :-)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles
    Eliza Madrigal: We're thinking about magic, Bert :)
    Bertram Jacobus: whaow - somebody knows what it is !? :-)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hehe
    Eliza Madrigal: didn't say that
    Eliza Madrigal: hahha
    Eos Amaterasu: you made a somewhat magical appearance... from Germany.... to SL?
    Bertram Jacobus: nono. that´s really normal ... :-)
    Eos Amaterasu: magic so normal
    SophiaSharon Larnia: and magic isn't?
    Bertram Jacobus: not in my life
    Eos Amaterasu: amazing we're here sitting around a pool having a conversation
    Eos Amaterasu: we share a 90 secs that stretches across continents
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: not to mention 13.5 mins in betweeen
    Pila Mulligan: magic describes acts in relation to what was unexpected -- somene from the 1800's would see a cell phone as magic
    Bertram Jacobus: may be young people won´t find that amazing at all ...
    Eliza Madrigal nods to Pila, yes relative isn't it
    Eos Amaterasu finds existence amazing
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: (what if nothing had ever happened?}
    Eos Amaterasu is scared of that thought
    Eliza Madrigal: There's an Einstein quote about magic... hmm...ah, no, about miracles...
    Eliza Madrigal: ""There are two ways to look at life. One is as though nothing is a miracle; the other is as though everything is."
    Bertram Jacobus: i think that would not change anything ... eos
    Eos Amaterasu: ?<^_^>?
    Bertram Jacobus: if nothing had ever happend - nothing had ever happend. what is scary with this thought ?
    Eos Amaterasu: this an ontological proof type thought - something has obviously happened
    Bertram Jacobus: could you explain, what "ontological" is please eos to me ?
    Eos Amaterasu: it's not a theoretical thought - it's very personal -
    Eos Amaterasu: onto comes from ancient Greek "ens", being, and logos is binding, so you try to get a grip on being
    Eos Amaterasu: ':-)
    Eos Amaterasu: study of being as being, not as this or that
    SophiaSharon Larnia: it is personal, some would say that nothing happened or everything happens at the same time, only fron the veiw of a seperte self would something appear to be happening
    Eos Amaterasu: but it's only fun it if it's highly personal :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: but we can fail in all we experience ... and so it´s also possible that nothing had happend at all ... for sure : a quite bizarre idea ... ;-)
    Eos Amaterasu: Not really thinkable (probably one of those things Godel thought about)
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Eos Amaterasu: or not
    Eliza Madrigal: or Hawking's baby universes/bubbles idea
    Eos Amaterasu: what is the nature of amazement?
    Bolonath Crystal: in this case also this idea would never have happened... so nothing to worry about ;)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Eos Amaterasu: but even if it ddidnt', but the appearanc of it does, then it did
    SophiaSharon Larnia: laughter is bubbling up for no reason :)
    Bertram Jacobus: that´s what i had i mind before too bolonath, nice to see you having expressed that (!) ...
    Pila Mulligan: in theology, ontology also refers to the presence of god within being, as opposed to teleology where god is apart from being
    Bertram Jacobus: the nature of amazement is relativity because natus, -a, - um means "born" and that has to do a lot with coming into relativity . my unhumble opinion ... ;-)
    Bertram Jacobus: interesting pila, but terrifying complicated - no ? ...
    Eliza Madrigal: presence being
    Pila Mulligan: well, just a paired logical set of alternatives
    Pila Mulligan: god is here or god is out there
    SophiaSharon Larnia: has a hard time envisioningwhatever we think of god as apart from being
    Eos Amaterasu: logic decorates presence
    Pila Mulligan: teleology sees what it calls a watchmaker god -- make a universe and wind it up and let it run
    Eos Amaterasu: how 17th century
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: blind watchmaker
    Pila Mulligan: bearded guy on throne
    Bertram Jacobus: yes pila. but expressed with THAT from eos explained word and it´s derivation (?)
    Eliza Madrigal: that guy used to terrify me :)
    Pila Mulligan: the ontological god is more a part of existence
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ive thought of that idea as a child in a sandbox, makes a sandcastle and walks away, not very heartning
    Pila Mulligan: not separate
    Pila Mulligan: well, Abrahamic religions share the fierce desert god heritage
    Eliza Madrigal: well, think about energy... even what is still and seems separate is energetic and in motion really
    Pila Mulligan: he's not an emo
    Eos Amaterasu: Heraclitues described time, the aeon, as a child playing with colored balls int he sand
    Bertram Jacobus: for me, god is the good (word near,y same) in the relative field and all in an absolute view ...
    Bertram Jacobus: nearly*
    SophiaSharon Larnia: worse if you get the sense that he kicked it before he left
    Eliza Madrigal: hmm... thinks of sands of time and watching an ant's perspective... each grain seems enormous
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh goodness SophiaSharon!
    Eliza Madrigal: :)))
    SophiaSharon Larnia: sorries
    Eos Amaterasu: ?
    Eliza Madrigal: I think that view of "god over there" sets us up to feel that way... everything that doesn't line up or work out...
    Pila Mulligan: yes, that and also I think a teleological god image is more conducive to strong religous hierarchies
    Pila Mulligan: reaching up thruoug layers of authority
    Eliza Madrigal: hmm, nods
    Pila Mulligan: chief - closer to god
    Eos Amaterasu: or, rather than credentializing, you could find in the rug being pulled out from under you to be the sacred space
    Bertram Jacobus: may be all beings be happy - bye all and have a nice time. and ty for the talk ! ...
    Eliza Madrigal: MMM, yes... a kind of freedom in that
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Bertram :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Bertram
    Bolonath Crystal: bye bert, om shanti
    Eos Amaterasu: Bye Bert
    Pila Mulligan: bye Bertram
    Eliza Madrigal: Is there a sense in which both views are helpful, or many views?
    Pila Mulligan: I'd say the multitude of views reflects the complexity of the mind
    Eos Amaterasu: there is hierarchy in the world as well as chaotic and sibling and other forms
    Pila Mulligan: so it helps one appreciate the complexity of the mind, at least
    SophiaSharon Larnia: just that we as being are a part of divinity and can direct what appears to us
    Pila Mulligan: yes, we are still tribes
    Pila Mulligan: Eos <- tribes
    Eliza Madrigal: great teachers, no teachers, miracles, no miracles, grounded, groundless
    SophiaSharon Larnia: but thats simpler sounding than what i mean :)
    Pila Mulligan: Sharon -- we are also gods :)
    Eos Amaterasu: can you say more, Sophia?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles
    Bolonath Crystal: i have to go
    Bolonath Crystal: bye all
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Bolonath :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: its hard to express and have to go in a few minutes, just that thoughts are energy that can influence our surroundings
    Pila Mulligan: bye Bolonath
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Bolonath
    Pila Mulligan: people muck around in the mundane slop of tribal hierarchies being pushed all about , and if they a re lucky occasionally noticing their real happiness is within
    SophiaSharon Larnia: and not just in interaction with others, but in the connections that these thoughts have with each other. I don't know how true this really is, is what I mean when i use the word magic.
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: nice, Sophia... magic is traditionally represented as happening thru words, spells
    Eos Amaterasu: spelled out thoughts
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes
    SophiaSharon Larnia: the rituals are unnecessary, imho
    SophiaSharon Larnia: are like props
    Eos Amaterasu: and magic is getting the phenomenal world in a dance with yourself, and even more so with others
    Pila Mulligan: magic is an escape from maya in the context of the theme Bolonath will adress next week
    Eliza Madrigal: I find some rituals helpful... a kind of bypassing of obstacles, sometimes
    SophiaSharon Larnia: as an escape, or in a deusional sense? Pila
    Eos Amaterasu: (Pila is being teleoogical :-)
    Pila Mulligan: a lessening of illusion
    Eliza Madrigal: Pila, is there a specific theme like that? neat
    SophiaSharon Larnia: delusional*
    Pila Mulligan: > when? Monday, October 26, 7 am SLT > > who? Bolonath and Pema will be the moderators > > what? Advaita Vedanta, the form of Hinduism that Bolonath is practicing
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: advaita : not two
    Pila Mulligan: atman an dbrahmin
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, I knew there was a talk, that's great
    Pila Mulligan: the best of questions
    Pila Mulligan: brahman*
    Eos Amaterasu: atman & abraham?
    Eos Amaterasu: batman?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: laughs
    Eliza Madrigal giggles
    Eos Amaterasu: <back>
    Eliza Madrigal is finding this conversation strange and particular
    Pila Mulligan: peculiarly so
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ah I have to go! talk to you a;ll later
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye for now
    Qt Core: bye sophia
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye SSharon :) Thanks
    Eos Amaterasu: Actually me to, have to make dinner for the kids
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Pila Mulligan: bye Sharon
    Eos Amaterasu: bye sharon
    Eliza Madrigal: Enjoy Eos, Bye for now
    Qt Core: time to go for me too
    Eos Amaterasu: see you all around the village, as well!
    Eliza Madrigal: its my hat isn't it
    Eliza Madrigal giggles
    Eos Amaterasu: "I do like your hat"
    Pila Mulligan: bye foks
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Qt :)
    Qt Core: bye all, have fun
    Eliza Madrigal: quite a set of ideas to weave together today
    Pila Mulligan: yes, I was wondering what kind of title for the chat log Sahron may dream up
    Eliza Madrigal: hah...look forward to that
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: we nearly threw dreams and time in there too
    Eliza Madrigal: We're quite a bunch some days
    Pila Mulligan: did you say the other day that the WoK workshop is not going to continue in Skype?
    Eliza Madrigal: yes Stim mentioned that it may not
    Eliza Madrigal: He's not sure it is working that well
    Pila Mulligan: it has a nice added dimension of feelig
    Eliza Madrigal: I think so too, and yet with technical issues some are left out some day
    Eliza Madrigal: *days
    Pila Mulligan: but the comprehension factor slips, for me especially (due to hearing deficiencies)
    Eliza Madrigal: tough call
    Eliza Madrigal: I keep wondering if SL chat with an added volume gadgest might not be possible for you
    Pila Mulligan: last Thursday it seemed like only every other syllable was getting through
    Eliza Madrigal: yikes, yes that won't do
    Eliza Madrigal: especially since you wrote that beautiful piece Pila
    Pila Mulligan: added volume helps, but there was actually a dropping of sound -- I could hear the mps file prety well
    Eliza Madrigal: hmm
    Pila Mulligan: garbled sound
    Pila Mulligan: not legilble so tospeak
    Eliza Madrigal: I wonder. Last week was clearer for most
    Pila Mulligan: :0
    Eliza Madrigal: but the week before, terrible!
    Pila Mulligan: tech demons
    Eliza Madrigal: :) yes
    Eliza Madrigal: I thought I'd be silent when we went to voice
    Pila Mulligan: :) expectations
    Eliza Madrigal: was rather intimidated :)
    Pila Mulligan: your expectation to be shy was disappointed
    Eliza Madrigal: but everytime we go beyond a barrier it is as though it has never been
    Eliza Madrigal: yes!!
    Pila Mulligan: well, maybe if your try you can be shy again
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I'm sure I will be
    Eliza Madrigal: hah
    Eliza Madrigal: I was thinking about sleep paralysis in the context of shyness
    Eliza Madrigal: do you know it feels similar?
    Pila Mulligan: being modest is of course virtuous
    Pila Mulligan: yes, hysteria comes to imnd
    Pila Mulligan: fear paralysis
    Eliza Madrigal nods... a feeling of exposure
    Pila Mulligan: rabbit in headlights
    Eliza Madrigal: absolutely
    Pila Mulligan: eeeeek squisssh
    Eliza Madrigal: I'd not linked the two before... ahhahah
    Pila Mulligan: again, it may just be the unexpected
    Eliza Madrigal: And the same way that it is fear inducing, it is exciting... need to let that be
    Pila Mulligan: if I understand the sleep paralysis mechanism
    Pila Mulligan: yes
    Pila Mulligan: realte to the exioctement
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, which is 'easy' from here talking about it... but has to become intrinsic perhaps... immediate?
    Pila Mulligan: my undertsanding of sleep paralysis is that the sleeping part makes the body just not available to respond as one would expect
    Pila Mulligan: but the awake part expects the body to repsond
    Eliza Madrigal: makes great sense
    Pila Mulligan: so there is anunsetlling situaiton
    Eliza Madrigal: I've not had those experiences since late teens, but some were terrible
    Pila Mulligan: I liked Gaya's comment that Korean children are taught to wiggle out of it
    Pila Mulligan: fingertips and toes
    Eliza Madrigal: the time frame makes me consider that it is highly 'chemical' in some way
    Pila Mulligan: hormonal?
    Eliza Madrigal: Ohh! Yes, that is so helpful
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, I think that must be an element Pila....
    Pila Mulligan: probably
    Eliza Madrigal: especially since Fox said adolescence is the highest statistical time frame
    Pila Mulligan: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: that image of god in the sky you mentioned earlier...
    Eliza Madrigal: my experience was like that... face turned to stone at me
    Eliza Madrigal: eeek
    Pila Mulligan: there is a great deal of fixation on the body in adolesence -- mental and physical stuff going on all around
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh that someone would have said to me then that it was 'normal' :)
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: oyu needed a Korean auntie
    Eliza Madrigal: hehhe
    Eliza Madrigal: yes or a nice hawaiian friend
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: One thing I don't think she specified was whether male/female were more prone
    Pila Mulligan: maybe it is not gender specific
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, may ask
    Pila Mulligan: the part relating to shfiting of consciousness may not be selective
    Eliza Madrigal: what do you mean?
    Pila Mulligan: what Fox called the hynogogic phase -- between sleeping and waking
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah
    Pila Mulligan: thats where the paralysis usually arises
    Pila Mulligan: the shift is not smooth
    Pila Mulligan: so the consciousness is in both places
    Eliza Madrigal nods.. like a gap/jump
    Pila Mulligan: yes
    Pila Mulligan: waking body awareness is evidently the biggest problem -- it is not there :)
    Pila Mulligan: i.e., the body is not awake
    Eliza Madrigal: So it seems one can map out chemical reasons for things, etc. but this making people perhaps more inclined toward lucid experiences is an added question
    Pila Mulligan: yes, the mind formulates answers as it wishes, and scinence likes chemicals
    Eliza Madrigal: Hm, yes :)
    Pila Mulligan: Fox and I were talking about these things recently
    Eliza Madrigal: in a session?
    Pila Mulligan: I came to the conclusion that one of the mind's essential compulsionis is to search for significance
    Pila Mulligan: no, at osgrid :)
    Eliza Madrigal nods... pattern making
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah :) I still haven't shopped in Italy
    Pila Mulligan: it is more difficult to avoide logic as the sole source of signifcance these days
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: there is also a frecnh place now :)
    Eliza Madrigal: So what of our 'beyond logic' endeavors? useful?
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh la la
    Pila Mulligan: of course
    Pila Mulligan: logic is helpful but not the only avenue to sgincifcance
    Eliza Madrigal: I've been getting more comfortable with 'beyond logic' behavior lately....
    Pila Mulligan: esepcailly since science requires the added element of repetition
    Eliza Madrigal: hope it isn't a slippery slope to complete incomprehensibility
    Eliza Madrigal: :D
    Pila Mulligan: reasoning is important, but any excess is a not-balanced situation
    Eliza Madrigal: nods.... yes maybe resonance is as important as reasoning
    Pila Mulligan: so excessive resonaing is a problem
    Pila Mulligan: I'd suppose so
    Eliza Madrigal: dulls the magic :)
    Pila Mulligan: resonance as in harmony
    Eliza Madrigal: yes!
    Pila Mulligan: yes, magic is a direct challenge to the dictates of lgic and reason
    Eliza Madrigal: magic and harmony are both words that have been tampered with too much
    Eliza Madrigal: perhaps
    Eliza Madrigal: so we have trouble hearing them clearly
    Pila Mulligan: well, a lot of things that seem quite valid to me are delegated to the unreaosnable category by modern standards
    Eliza Madrigal smiles. Perhaps the test of that is whether others are helped Pila
    Eliza Madrigal: which they are :)
    Pila Mulligan: and also whether the thing in question is enduring
    Eliza Madrigal: It may take thousands of years before someone says "We've discovered ____!"
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: the earth is round, for exam0le
    Eliza Madrigal: like hawking's baby universe idea right now... sounds to me a lot like the heart sutra
    Pila Mulligan: can you tell me about the idea please?
    Pila Mulligan: not familair with it
    Eliza Madrigal: Well, I'm early in understnding this... but to my hearing what he is suggesting is that baby universes are everywhere....
    Eliza Madrigal: like the hyperspace/multiple dimensions idea... same thing I believe...
    Eliza Madrigal: but when it comes to whether there is a 'moment or origin'
    Eliza Madrigal: *of
    Eliza Madrigal: there is and isn't... hm.. one sec
    Eliza Madrigal: Here... much clearer than me:
    Eliza Madrigal: It turns out that such bubbles could even form right now. An entirely separate space-time could pop into existence in your living room, say. It would start unimaginably small, then balloon to the size of a cantaloupe--but not before your very eyes, because, for quite fundamental reasons, you couldn't see it. "They don't form in space, of course," Stephen said. "It doesn't mean anything to ask where in space these things occur." They don't take up room in our universe but rather are their own universes, expanding into spaces that did not exist before. "They're cut off from us after we make them," I said. "No relics, no fossil?" "I do not think there could be." "Like an ungrateful child who doesn't write home." When talking about immensities, I sometimes grasp for something human. "It would not form in our space, but rather as another space-time." We discussed for a while some speculations about this that "So they form and go," I mused. "Vanish. Between us and these other universes lies absolute
    Eliza Madrigal: nothingness, in the exact sense--no space or time, no matter, no energy."
    Eliza Madrigal: http://lofi.forum.physorg.com/Stephe...ses_19488.html
    Pila Mulligan: "The number of particles in the baby universe, will be equal to the number of particles that fell into the black hole, plus the number of particles that the black hole emits, during its evaporation. This means that the particles that fall into one black hole, will come out of another hole of about the same mass. "
    Eliza Madrigal: I don't begin to grasp it, but hmmmmm :)
    Eliza Madrigal: So things have been spoken of in a certain way for thousands and thousands of years in obscure religioius texts...
    Eliza Madrigal: written by people who think beyond logic
    Eliza Madrigal: or recorded, I should say. Worth considering :)
    Pila Mulligan: I remember having an image when I was very young of atoms and molecules being little galaxies and universes
    Eliza Madrigal: a kind of harmony and magic
    Eliza Madrigal: Hmmmm, nice Pila
    Pila Mulligan: and everyhitng being all ocnnnected by the structural contiinuity of those atmos and glaxies
    Eliza Madrigal: just thinking? as a child just innocently considering?
    Pila Mulligan: an image, and too young to be really thinking it
    Pila Mulligan: just a kind of picture
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: images can speak volumes
    Pila Mulligan: so when we add time and space the continuity dissolves of necessity
    Pila Mulligan: but wohtout time and space an atom may be a universe
    Pila Mulligan: to be childish :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I think about the fact that we were taught in school that atoms had these boundaries... fixed
    Eliza Madrigal: what a big change i perception from one generation to another
    Eliza Madrigal: *in
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: and oh how I despair that I learned the little diagrams and then went about my day without pondering...
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Pila Mulligan: well, I've been told by scientists that my adult thought is wrong in this regard, but if E=MC2 doesnt it make sense that mass and energy define reality?
    Pila Mulligan: I miss the real understanding of mass here, it seems, but to me mass and eneergy do real well in settling accooutns with metaphysics
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, I'm not sure at all... re the relative density of things
    Eliza Madrigal: this is a puzzle I have with karma too
    Pila Mulligan: hmm ..?
    Eliza Madrigal: why one thing is permeable and another not so much so... the density
    Pila Mulligan: lets look at thing an dpermeable a bit more please
    Pila Mulligan: then denisty after
    Eliza Madrigal: as you say, it is a kind of childish reasoning, but I don't discount those beginnings the way I used to
    Pila Mulligan: can you give an example of things being permeable by degree?
    Eliza Madrigal: Okay.. well concepts
    Eliza Madrigal: everything is really simple, isn't it...
    Pila Mulligan: maybe :)
    Eliza Madrigal: when we see it... it is so obvious
    Pila Mulligan: self-evident
    Eliza Madrigal: everywhere
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: so if we don't think that god is deciding a path for us... dolling out...
    Eliza Madrigal: hm... this is hard :)
    Pila Mulligan: are you heading toward free will?
    Eliza Madrigal: I don't think in those terms as much as others I think but I guess so
    Pila Mulligan: as in density = the degree of oppotunity
    Eliza Madrigal: yes.... fluidity and movement
    Pila Mulligan: so some things are like rocks and you bounce of of them if you are not careful
    Pila Mulligan: while some things are softer and you can work with them
    Eliza Madrigal nods... yes without there being a value judgement
    Eliza Madrigal: no real rhyme or reason
    Pila Mulligan: and karma may be the rocks?
    Eliza Madrigal: well I think of karma as the limitations.... and like Stim says those can be our freedoms too
    Eliza Madrigal: but there seems to be a parallel to energy and movement
    Eliza Madrigal: and resonance
    Pila Mulligan: does density then relate to the freedom of movement?
    Eliza Madrigal: nods, though I think the thread moved
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Pila Mulligan: well, lets get it resonant with karma then
    Eliza Madrigal: okay :) Tell me your thoughts on this... freestyle?
    Pila Mulligan: [14:40] Eliza Madrigal: Oh, I'm not sure at all... re the relative density of things [14:40] Eliza Madrigal: this is a puzzle I have with karma too [14:41] Pila Mulligan: hmm ..? [14:41] Eliza Madrigal: why one thing is permeable and another not so much so... the density
    Pila Mulligan: if density relate to freedom of movement and karma relates to limitations ...
    Pila Mulligan: let's plot a course of karma
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, let me put it this way... I plant two seeds... one sprouts instantly and flourishes ... the other just sits there...waiting
    Pila Mulligan: ok let's say Pedro is born at place A
    Eliza Madrigal: Okay
    Pila Mulligan: Pedro's life ends at point B
    Pila Mulligan: so let's call the movement from point A to point B Pedro's karma
    Eliza Madrigal: hm, okay
    Pila Mulligan: so, if Pedor's karma is like the seed it may be flurishing or afflicted
    Eliza Madrigal: well, both at once... many conflicting things at once
    Pila Mulligan: we may describe that karma in terms of denisty
    Pila Mulligan: at one point it is more dense
    Eliza Madrigal: okay
    Pila Mulligan: and another is is freer
    Pila Mulligan: now here we may need to consider whether Pedro's karma entends beyong points A an dB
    Eliza Madrigal: both exist in the same place, at the same time, is what I find both puzzling and beautiful
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, yes the scope
    Pila Mulligan: in other words is it affected by things outside this one life span
    Pila Mulligan: I think it is
    Pila Mulligan: but even if you don't the analogy of denisty probably works to explain Pedro's karma
    Pila Mulligan: let's say Pedro spends his life reacting to his ego and compulsiosn
    Pila Mulligan: in that cae, he dies quite close to poitnA
    Pila Mulligan: because he was stuck in denisty
    Eliza Madrigal: Hm
    Eliza Madrigal: I had a sensation once... making the bed. It was like I was doing it attentively and that somehow affected not just that once, in a karmic sense, but every single time I'd done it... so even if pedro's life is a flash...
    Eliza Madrigal: it may be longer than someone else's, in a strange way
    Pila Mulligan: however if Pedro can flow more freely with those years between pojts A and B ...
    Pila Mulligan: yes, he acocmplsihes mopre
    Eliza Madrigal: loosen pedro's grip on time
    Pila Mulligan: yep magic
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Eliza Madrigal thinks
    Pila Mulligan: so if Pedro had some intrinsic sense of where he wanted poitn B to be, he may get closer then
    Eliza Madrigal: hm, which takes us back to your time and space question
    Eliza Madrigal: and the idea of leaps
    Eliza Madrigal: Pedro may see that leaps exist but can't depend on them
    Pila Mulligan: unfortunatley, this may sound cyncial, I'm of the opinion that muh of an oridnary lifetime is devoited to reacting to ego and compulsiosn
    Pila Mulligan: like quicksand, he cannot quite leap beyond those mundane traps
    Eliza Madrigal: so he may stay stuck
    Pila Mulligan: yep
    Pila Mulligan: and the Poinit A and Pouit B are quite proximate
    Pila Mulligan: his karmic beds never got the best making
    Eliza Madrigal: until maybe another force acts... somehow it seems to me that's how we need each other in a beyond logic way
    Eliza Madrigal: giving permission
    Eliza Madrigal: showing cmpassion
    Pila Mulligan: we need each other's magic
    Eliza Madrigal smiles, yes
    Eliza Madrigal: Nice riffing with you Pila. Its been too long :)
    Pila Mulligan: being freindly works pretty well
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I've meant to ask how Ade and Three are doing. Have you talked recently?
    Pila Mulligan: yes, Eliza, very nice to be with you
    Pila Mulligan: not much, no
    Pila Mulligan: they seem quite busy with thier rl/sl work
    Eliza Madrigal nods... which is a positive
    Eliza Madrigal: Wish them blessings with that but miss them at times :)
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: well, it is noon here but evening is approaching there -- I hope you have a good night, Eliza -- sleep well and sweet dreams :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Now SophiaSharon is really going to have a time naming the log :)
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: Pedro's Bed ?
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks Pila, you too. :) I'm not sure I'll sleep but I sure will try :)
    Pila Mulligan: thanks, bye foronw
    Pila Mulligan: aloha `oe
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye , and aloha 'oe
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