The Guardian for this meeting was Zen Arado. The comments are by Zen Arado. Present were Alf Kelberry, Archmage Atlantis, Bleu Oleander, Dash Earthboy, Eliza Madrigal and myself

Defining ourselves:

Alfred Kelberry: zen san :)
Zen Arado: oh Hi Alf :)
Zen Arado: didn't see you there
Alfred Kelberry: just popped in
Zen Arado: ok nice of you
Alfred Kelberry: you too, zen the painter :)
Zen Arado: just a categoty
Zen Arado: category
Alfred Kelberry: fancy one, i'd say
Zen Arado: I paint sometimes
Zen Arado: not much atm
Zen Arado: so not a ful toime professional
Alfred Kelberry: still, a painter :P
Zen Arado: don't do it for a living
Zen Arado: well you apint too?
Alfred Kelberry: nope
Bleu Oleander: hi Zen, boxy
Zen Arado: Hello Bleu :)
Alfred Kelberry: bleu the artsy goddess :)
Bleu Oleander: :)
Alfred Kelberry: with a pretty voice
Alfred Kelberry: ;)
Bleu Oleander: awww, ty boxy :)
Zen Arado: I don't know what 'I'am
Bleu Oleander: hi Dash
Alfred Kelberry: dash!
Zen Arado: Hi Dash
Dash Earthboy: hey y'all
Zen Arado: I worked as an engineer in a power station
Alfred Kelberry: how's your travelling, dash? or you're settled for now?
Zen Arado: then I did a n Arts degree
Bleu Oleander: what was your arts degree in?
Bleu Oleander: painting?
Zen Arado: sorry I'mn wandering off
Dash Earthboy: Alf, i am back in my house in GA, but let's listen to what Zen is saying, okay?
Alfred Kelberry: sure :)
Zen Arado: a little art history but finished up dping philosophy
Zen Arado: then an MA philosophy
Alfred Kelberry: neat
Zen Arado: so am 'I' an engineer, artist, philosopher ?
Alfred Kelberry: *looks around*
Zen Arado: or none of the above ?
Zen Arado: :)
Alfred Kelberry: a painter
Bleu Oleander: can define ourselves in many ways
Alfred Kelberry: for now
Zen Arado: yeh exaclty Bleu
Zen Arado: or not bother defining at all
Bleu Oleander: can even define ourselves as no self
Zen Arado: or stop constructing one
Zen Arado: or see through the illusion
Bleu Oleander: kinda impossible to stop constructing a self all together
Zen Arado: or just not bother
Zen Arado: :)
Bleu Oleander: hi Arch
Dash Earthboy: Zen do you identify with what you do for a living?
Dash Earthboy: hey Arch
Alfred Kelberry: archy :)
Zen Arado: Hi Arch
Zen Arado: no not at all Dash
Zen Arado: I remember telling soeone here that I worked as an engineer
Dash Earthboy: so you're comfortable with having "all of the above" as characteristics?
Zen Arado: she immediately started talking about her brother who was an engineer and comparing him to me
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Zen Arado: I just see them as things I do or have done
Archmage Atlantis: tch
Zen Arado: but don't take an identity from them
Dash Earthboy: well, my son is an engineer as is both bros in law
Archmage Atlantis: labels be a bi
Archmage Atlantis: oo
Archmage Atlantis: fragrmenting speech
Dash Earthboy: but none of them identify as "an engineer" for who they are, just what they do for a living
Zen Arado: yeh...other people seem to want to put us in a category
Zen Arado: it oversimplifies us
Dash Earthboy: yah
Alfred Kelberry: things change. you were an engeneer, but not anymore. you don't support this label going to work every day. you do wonderful paintings though. this is now, in this moment (at least for me) and i see you as an artsy soul and a painter :)
Zen Arado: we areall unique
Dash Earthboy: back in the day we used to call that "box" or "pigeonhole"
Zen Arado: and don't even know what we can do ourselves
Bleu Oleander: on the surface yes, but once you get to know someone, at for me, I don't see them in a category
Dash Earthboy: or even "bag"
Zen Arado: yeh
Zen Arado: I probably do it too
Zen Arado: it's handy
Dash Earthboy: i don't

Categorizing:

Archmage Atlantis: The doing of it catagorizing is not wrong or bad, it is only the failure to understand that it is a mechanism to orgranize that is not good
Zen Arado: yes agree Arch
Archmage Atlantis: ty zen
Bleu Oleander: categories are preliminary and meant for a "fast read" of a situation, person, object etc. but deeper exploration and reflection is needed to discover the nuances
Zen Arado: I tend to do it with people's personalities
Zen Arado: yes Bleu
Zen Arado: and allowing people freedom to be different than we expect
Zen Arado: not assigning them a role..a fixed role
Bleu Oleander: keep things fluid
Alfred Kelberry: *nods to bleu*
Bleu Oleander: constantly upgrading and revising
Dash Earthboy: well, i was meaning categorizing by employment...not a general abstinence of any categorization which helps me organize
Zen Arado: men do that with women a lot don't you think?
Zen Arado: and vicde versa
Dash Earthboy: yah
Dash Earthboy: i've seen much of the vice versa :)
Bleu Oleander: I think everyone does it to some extent
Zen Arado: we do it to ourselves too?
Bleu Oleander: yes
Zen Arado: self defining
Dash Earthboy: and the circle is complete :)
Zen Arado: 'I'm not that type of person'
Archmage Atlantis: b4 I came to this meeting, I looked something up that seemed to applay
Archmage Atlantis: ca·thar·sis A release of emotional tension, as after an overwhelming experience, that restores or refreshes the spirit. New Latin, from Greek katharsis, from kathairein, to purge, from katharos, pure
Bleu Oleander: hi Eliza
Zen Arado: Morning Eliza
Dash Earthboy: hey Eliza
Alfred Kelberry: eliza! :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi everyone
Zen Arado: we are talking about defining and categorizing ourselves and others
Eliza Madrigal: interesting topic!
Zen Arado: allowing purification
Bleu Oleander: how do you mean "purification"?
Zen Arado: I noticed myself telling others I don't like this time of year
Zen Arado: but is it true or just a story I tell myself?
Bleu Oleander: a lot of expectations this time of year
Archmage Atlantis: Zen, yes.....the winter of our discontent
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Zen Arado: ha yes Arch
Bleu Oleander: can always shift your perspective though
Zen Arado: I always seem to break up with someone this time of year too
Archmage Atlantis: at least at that time we as beings have been closer to this pole known as north
Zen Arado: readthat that is common
Dash Earthboy: i don't see S.A.D. as that mysterious

Always and never:

Bleu Oleander: I try not to say things to myself that begin with "I always" or "I never"
Zen Arado: good plan Bleu !!
Bleu Oleander: :)
Eliza Madrigal: nods
Zen Arado: cos we beieve our self definitions so often
Zen Arado: and they become self fulfilling
Eliza Madrigal: many take a while to adjust to earlier nightfall, and some 'evaluate' their lives leading to New Years resolutions, reflect on the year behind... threshold time
Eliza Madrigal: but that can be 'positive'
Bleu Oleander: can be a new beginning
Zen Arado: maybe SAD is an illusion Dash?
Eliza Madrigal: yes, fresh start
Archmage Atlantis: I have a conundrum then, for you Bleu......I will never see things as always the same, and I will always see things as not being never
Zen Arado: but there is scientific evidence I think?
Bleu Oleander: :) Arch
Bleu Oleander: I didn't say always or never ... only that I try
Zen Arado: always or never never happens :)
Zen Arado: another conundrum :)
Bleu Oleander: when I hear always or never it triggers me to stop and listen to myself and look more closely at what I'm saying
Zen Arado: yeh absolutes are dangerous
Bleu Oleander: often not really meaning always or never
Zen Arado: reality is ever shifting and changing
Zen Arado: resists attempts to freeze it into place
Eliza Madrigal: it is a 'couples therapy' tool also, not defaulting to always or never, because surely one isn't 'always' inconsiderate/obtuse/etc. lol
Zen Arado: yes
Bleu Oleander: :)
Zen Arado: funny how 'always and never' come up in arguments
Bleu Oleander: except for husbands hehe
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: but then my kids do roll their eyes when I take out my 'there is a tendency toward...' language,
Zen Arado: 'you never' etc
Bleu Oleander: ha!
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Archmage Atlantis: children are our future
Zen Arado: ha ha a sneakier version
Bleu Oleander: you are your future
Archmage Atlantis: argh, did I really say that?
Zen Arado: everyone and everything is our future
Eliza Madrigal: 'we are the ones we've been waiting for'
Dash Earthboy: thus begins the we-zing
Archmage Atlantis: In Principle I agree Zen
Zen Arado: wheezes
Dash Earthboy: yep
Zen Arado: but it doesn't exist
Archmage Atlantis: In reality, an animal came to our house to be beloveed

Generalizing:

Dash Earthboy: minds can be healthier without generalization and denial
Zen Arado: yeh just sensing the present moment
Archmage Atlantis: And I have no idea how that will turn out
Zen Arado: trying to do that
Dash Earthboy: Arch in music we call that improv
Zen Arado: my mind is always looking for general rules
Zen Arado: form what has happened in the past
Zen Arado: a friend with Aspergers always told me off for generalizing
Eliza Madrigal: it does seem to be important to have general outlines and from that respond within a moment/unique context
Zen Arado: generalizing addiction:)
Eliza Madrigal: for instance, in an argument of you vs you, a 'we' may be a bonding frame
Zen Arado: but every moment is new and fresh
Bleu Oleander: the past was once that way also
Dash Earthboy: Zen did your Aspergers friend catch you saying "always"? :)
Bleu Oleander: but we beat it into submission hehe
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Archmage Atlantis: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iT88jBAoVIM
Zen Arado: no...just deriving genearl rules when she wanted to be specific to her
Zen Arado: her situation
Eliza Madrigal: defaulting to abstract?
Zen Arado: I avoid always and never too
Dash Earthboy: listen to yourself sometime Zen :)
Zen Arado: ha that is part of it too Eliza
Zen Arado: it is a philosopher thing too
Dash Earthboy: Zen Arado: a friend with Aspergers always told me off for generalizing (  :)  )
Zen Arado: that's what philosophers do
Eliza Madrigal: hide in the abstract forest
Zen Arado: well not intended
Zen Arado: it is trying to understand life
Zen Arado: clarify it
Eliza Madrigal nods and what is common ground?
Dash Earthboy: i am amused often by the "good intentions" excuse
Zen Arado: see through the mental fog
Zen Arado: see through faulty logic we use
Archmage Atlantis: trying to understand = good.......thinking one understands = bad
Zen Arado: philosophic conclusions are provisional
Zen Arado: but I don't do much of that nowadays

Accuracy:

Dash Earthboy: many communications problems can be thwarted by intentionally being accurate in what is said
Eliza Madrigal: hidden logic
Zen Arado: what is accurate?
Eliza Madrigal: it sort of depends on one's point... whether to relate or to 'teach' ?
Zen Arado: my accurate might not be someone elses
Bleu Oleander: right
Zen Arado: I can't say anything now
Dash Earthboy: oh crap
Bleu Oleander: however there are many accurates we agree to agree on
Eliza Madrigal: I like collaborative models... so if not 'competitive' there is learning while relating... and what can emerge is larger than egos
Eliza Madrigal: or more flexible anyway, chance of that
Zen Arado: agree Eliza
Zen Arado: collaborative is more in vogue nowadays I think
Eliza Madrigal: and then people can absorb/allow for others' quirks... like my saying 'yes' all the time, lol
Zen Arado: old days strong individualism more admired
Dash Earthboy: to challenge the concept of "accurate" is itself a divisive, not collaborative, action...i believe some people like to recreate the Tower of Babel at every opportunity, more out of ego than out of earnest curiosity
Bleu Oleander: wish I could say collaborative and US congress in same sentence hehe
Eliza Madrigal giggles Bleu
Archmage Atlantis: After the ads
Archmage Atlantis: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amcGI...w&feature=fvst
Bleu Oleander: sometimes "accurates" need to be challenged ...
Zen Arado: but if I say my version is accurate and everyone else is wrong...should I tell people that?
Eliza Madrigal: pretty song, Arch, ty... old tune...
Archmage Atlantis: I a perfect world, Yes Zen
Bleu Oleander: how change happens
Archmage Atlantis: "In a"
Zen Arado: nice song Arch
Zen Arado: nice looking woman
Archmage Atlantis: You would not be condemned in a perfect world for having a vision that is different
Eliza Madrigal: isn't there something to be said for 'presence' of a matter... that people aren't just creatures of 'accuracy' but of presence...?
Eliza Madrigal: of intention and impartation?
Bleu Oleander: accuracy in the sense of understanding?
Eliza Madrigal: we have hundreds of teachers in life, maybe one or two that 'affect' us deeply
Eliza Madrigal: and so accuracy matters but maybe not the heart of things?
Zen Arado: for functional purposes the most accurate model is used
Archmage Atlantis: Yes., Eliza...thought thati a bit "touchy-feely" for us right brainers
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Archmage Atlantis: Or is it left brainers
Eliza Madrigal: haha
Archmage Atlantis: I forger
Dash Earthboy: what is an accurate model, Zen?
Zen Arado: in a work context the one that works best
Bleu Oleander: how are we to be in the world? what works best :)
Dash Earthboy: so there is a context in which my use of "accurate" could be used?
Eliza Madrigal: psychology suggests 'left' arch, but since I knew what you meant it was okay not to pick it apart
Bleu Oleander: constantly revised throughout life
Zen Arado: oh yes Dash
Dash Earthboy: thanks Bleu
Dash Earthboy: yet you challenged it Zen
Zen Arado: perhaps that's where confusion arises...different contexts
Eliza Madrigal: in this context.. if writing a paper it would need to be corrected perhaps
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Zen Arado: I wa thinking of a woder context
Zen Arado: one of versions of reality
Zen Arado: wider
Dash Earthboy: look at my original statement about "accuracy" intentionality
Eliza Madrigal would need someone to go behind constantly editing and cleaning
Archmage Atlantis: Am I allowed to be bi-brainal, sisters?
Bleu Oleander: :)
Eliza Madrigal: yes Arch :)
Archmage Atlantis: ty
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Eliza Madrigal: this is pretty fun actually, but I have to go
Bleu Oleander: me too
Dash Earthboy: guess i think "sincerity" is the most important "good intention"
Bleu Oleander: take care all :)
Archmage Atlantis: First a prayer
Dash Earthboy: pax et bonum y'all
Archmage Atlantis: In the force of all creation
Archmage Atlantis: I ask that what we see
Archmage Atlantis: is given to all
Zen Arado: there is a big difference between accuracy if aiming a rifle and accuracy of descriptions of reality is all
Zen Arado: bye Dash :)
Archmage Atlantis: with the power to accept
Archmage Atlantis: and believe
Archmage Atlantis: blessings and namaste
Zen Arado: ByeBoeu ByeEliza
Zen Arado: namaste
Zen Arado: bye Arch
Eliza Madrigal: thanks everyone, Namaste'. Zen... it is perhaps whether aggression is present sometimes ...? ah, couldn't keep up with everything
Eliza Madrigal: so forgive me if I added a new string element here :))
Eliza Madrigal: fun conversation
Zen Arado: np
Eliza Madrigal: bye for now