2013.12.15 19:00 - Experimenting with Contemplative Dialog

The guardian for this meeting was Calvino Rabeni.  This session was posted from the PaB autolistener database...

[19:21] Daedalus687 Resident: hi there
[19:22] Calvino Rabeni: Hi Daedalus! How are you? Have you been here often?
[19:22] Daedalus687 Resident: Occasionally
[19:22] Daedalus687 Resident: not real lately though
[19:22] Daedalus687 Resident: Yourself?
[19:23] Calvino Rabeni: Every week at this same time, but otherwise not so much in Second Life recently.

[19:24] Daedalus687 Resident: how did you come to know this space?
[19:25] Daedalus687 Resident: Hi san
[19:25] Santoshima Resident: greetings
[19:25] Calvino Rabeni: A friend of mine in real life knew the people who started this project and sim .. musta been about 5 years ago.. He thought I might like it :)
[19:25] Calvino Rabeni: Greetings Santoshima :)
[19:26] Santoshima Resident: hello
[19:26] Daedalus687 Resident: Ah, which people? um...perma perma is it?
[19:26] Calvino Rabeni: I wonder if there's a topic-of-the-week ?
[19:26] Calvino Rabeni: Yes Pema
[19:27] Daedalus687 Resident: pema..excuse my butchering
[19:27] Calvino Rabeni: No problem there :)
[19:28] Daedalus687 Resident: I havn't seen a topic board recently
[19:28] Calvino Rabeni: There has been quite a variety of people come through here, experimenting with making . um, what I'd consider a contemplative style of dialogue
[19:29] Daedalus687 Resident: The topic must be topiclessness
[19:29] Daedalus687 Resident: lol
[19:29] Calvino Rabeni: Quite a challenge actually given the diversity of people involved

[19:29] Calvino Rabeni: Well topiclessness is actually one of my favorite topics recently :)
[19:30] Daedalus687 Resident: How are you san?
[19:31] Calvino Rabeni: It does present a difficulty for speaking about it ..(without topic-izing it)
[19:31] Santoshima Resident: well, thank you ~ how are you both?
[19:32] Daedalus687 Resident: Can you tell me more of this topiclessness?
[19:32] Daedalus687 Resident: I am well thank you
[19:32] Calvino Rabeni: I am well enough now to say very well, and have it seem pretty much true !

[19:32] Santoshima Resident: the topic is something like: "catching yourself in the act of non-doing" ... or something like that
[19:33] Santoshima Resident: have blacklisted the topic board
[19:33] Santoshima Resident: so going from memory
[19:33] Calvino Rabeni: What is "blacklisted"?
[19:33] Santoshima Resident: um
[19:33] Santoshima Resident: well
[19:33] Santoshima Resident: removed it from my viewing
[19:34] Calvino Rabeni: ... since I don't know how it works when NOT muted :)
[19:34] Daedalus687 Resident: Either of you prefer to take a particular topic?

[19:35] Santoshima Resident: no particular preference
[19:35] Daedalus687 Resident: I could either go with a suggested one or grab one I'd pefer from the ten thousand in my brain
[19:36] Daedalus687 Resident: You have a focus calvino?
[19:36] Calvino Rabeni: I'm fine with "topiclessness" but would go for an easier one if you have one in mind.
[19:36] Daedalus687 Resident: kk

[19:36] Daedalus687 Resident: I do,
[19:37] Daedalus687 Resident: I thought at some point about how we implicitly think that all the words we use with each other have the same meaning, yet we each bring our own meaning spheres 'attached' to each word.
[19:38] Daedalus687 Resident: and then I thought, why can we never stop long enough to see if we mean the same thing by the same word
[19:38] Daedalus687 Resident: Or build a mutual understanding

[19:38] Calvino Rabeni: Yes that makes sense. For example, how can people inquire into something like "emotional intelligence" without people immediately going to "what is it, how do we define and measure it" ... when there isn't any "thing" there to be measured and defined?

[19:39] Daedalus687 Resident: I have the inclining that morphemes, as in words, will only get us so far
[19:40] Daedalus687 Resident: But then what the heck is the alternative?
[19:40] Daedalus687 Resident: If there even is one
[19:40] Calvino Rabeni: I've heard that, yes. Though language gets a bad rap, too
[19:40] Santoshima Resident: dance
[19:40] Santoshima Resident: music
[19:41] Daedalus687 Resident: I agree San. Yet not all people can dance or hear
[19:41] Santoshima Resident: whittling :)
[19:41] Daedalus687 Resident: or all beings perhaps

[19:41] Calvino Rabeni: so that implicit assumption you were talking about . that it means the same thing, that it means some one, simple, definable thing that everyone ought to agree on, like identifying the Eifel Tower
[19:42] Calvino Rabeni: Dance, yes, that circumvents the definition trap
[19:42] Daedalus687 Resident: I think yes calvino, maybe simply agreed identification
[19:42] Calvino Rabeni: but so does talking about things that people did, that were REAL actions, that were intelligent in ways we can't begin to define
[19:43] Calvino Rabeni: Agreed definition is the side-track of analytic philosophy
[19:44] Calvino Rabeni: focusing too much on language, on an assumed benefit of clarity and definitions ... and ends up being a language game while the quarry, intelligence, (or whatever) escapes
[19:44] Santoshima Resident: { * }

[19:45] Daedalus687 Resident: When I ask myself whats left to communicate (implying i need to communicate anything at all), after my voice is gone, when my arms and brain are...what would that communication be?

[19:46] Calvino Rabeni: Because intelligence is there, in relationship, in action, in conversation, in imagination. Intelligence is what we DO when being humans or animals.

[19:46] Calvino Rabeni: (reading your question)
[19:47] Daedalus687 Resident: I agree with you calvino on the language game bit
[19:47] Calvino Rabeni: Communicate ... the concept starts with a preconception, if you will, that knowledge is not present unless some process happens.

[19:48] Daedalus687 Resident: if i may ask calvino, have you read TSK?
[19:48] Calvino Rabeni: Yes
[19:48] Daedalus687 Resident: k
[19:48] Santoshima Resident: { ditto, in case you were going to ask }
[19:49] Daedalus687 Resident: I was, sorry san
[19:49] Santoshima Resident: hi hana :)
[19:49] Daedalus687 Resident: lol
[19:49] Santoshima Resident: ;)
[19:49] Daedalus687 Resident: Thats excellet
[19:49] Santoshima Resident: lovely dove, hana :)
[19:49] Daedalus687 Resident: Hi there!
[19:49] Hana Furlough: Why thanks, San!
[19:49] Hana Furlough: Hi all!
[19:50] Calvino Rabeni: Greetings Hana :)

[19:50] Daedalus687 Resident: What is your notion of that text?
[19:52] Daedalus687 Resident: Have I asked you about that text before San?
[19:52] Calvino Rabeni: It's pretty old .. not in terms of calendar or the evolution of ideas in society, but in terms of its author and the development of his teaching ... when I read it, it seems like a young man's approach, one focusing on insight and method and a striving for freedom and clarity .. it's interesting to see the more recent teachings coming from the same sources
[19:53] Calvino Rabeni: which have presumably developed somewhat
[19:53] Hana Furlough: (sorry... what text?)
[19:53] Calvino Rabeni: and appear to focus more on a direct perception via things like natural beauty
[19:53] Daedalus687 Resident: srry hana, I got the sense from that calvino had read a book called TSK
[19:53] Hana Furlough: oh ok, TSK
[19:53] Calvino Rabeni: TSK .. the Time-Space-Knowledge philosophical teaching of Tarthang Tulku
[19:54] Calvino Rabeni: which were formative at the beginning of this Second Life experiment

[19:54] Daedalus687 Resident: I would be redicent to say they are his
[19:54] Hana Furlough: right
[19:54] Calvino Rabeni: Always good to be reticent
[19:54] Hana Furlough: : )
[19:54] Daedalus687 Resident: No way he could have ordinarily wrote that in english
[19:55] Calvino Rabeni: The specific book was not TT's wording, yes, it was written by a student
[19:55] Daedalus687 Resident: tainer
[19:55] Calvino Rabeni: and american TSK teacher
[19:55] Calvino Rabeni: nods
[19:55] Daedalus687 Resident: I wish I could have an audience with him for a time
[19:56] Calvino Rabeni: Who also wrote books such as Dragon's Play
[19:57] Calvino Rabeni: That would be pretty engaging, wouldn't it, to have ongoing contact with him
[19:57] Calvino Rabeni: What would you wish to do with such a relationship?
[19:57] Daedalus687 Resident: Not ongoing maybe
[19:57] Calvino Rabeni: OR pursue through it
[19:57] Calvino Rabeni: Ok not ongoing, but maybe, long enough to see what might develop from the meeting?
[19:58] Daedalus687 Resident: Just to hear the perspective

[20:02] Daedalus687 Resident: may I ask why you ask that line of question calvino?
[20:03] Calvino Rabeni: Perspectives are something like a resource of collective consciousness ... yesterday I went to a one-day talk of the poet David Whyte, and he spoke a lot about a friend who died, John ODonohue
[20:04] Calvino Rabeni: and both of them go to some amount of effort to be "topicless" in their conveyance of what they have to say
[20:04] Calvino Rabeni: (if you mean, why question topic-lessness?)
[20:05] Daedalus687 Resident: I understand what you mean
[20:06] Calvino Rabeni: Well if you want to talk about things that are real but can't be defined - it's a praqmatic issue - once you label a topic it suddenly becomes a counterfit of what it really might be or strives to be
[20:06] Calvino Rabeni: ok
[20:07] Calvino Rabeni: so then your framework blocks inquiry except on its defined terms
[20:08] Calvino Rabeni: I used intelligence as an example, but "spirit" might be another one .. however once you say the word, it severely constrains the discourse
[20:08] Daedalus687 Resident: I understand
[20:09] Calvino Rabeni: like '' oh that must be a metaphysical construct, and we know that means," etc. etc.
[20:09] Calvino Rabeni: ah
[20:09] Calvino Rabeni: TY ok

[20:09] Calvino Rabeni wonders how (or what) Hana had been doing recently
[20:10] Daedalus687 Resident: yea, my b too
[20:11] Calvino Rabeni: Meanwhile, one thing I've been doing is seeking to master cooking "casseroles" :)
[20:11] Calvino Rabeni: or at least become less random :)
[20:11] Hana Furlough: oh sorry
[20:12] Hana Furlough: working mostly
[20:12] Calvino Rabeni: and I'll need to attend to that worthy project in a few minutes
[20:12] Calvino Rabeni: Interesting work for you, Hana?
[20:12] Hana Furlough: a worthy project indeed!
[20:12] Hana Furlough: oh yes, sometimes too much interesting
[20:12] Calvino Rabeni: :)
[20:13] Hana Furlough: but very happy to be doing it
[20:13] Santoshima Resident: :)
[20:13] Calvino Rabeni: too much of a good thing .. that's great though
[20:13] Hana Furlough: yes
[20:13] Hana Furlough: have you been traveling recently, cal?
[20:14] Calvino Rabeni: Not since October ...I'm in the winter abode
[20:14] Hana Furlough: sounds nice
[20:14] Hana Furlough: where is that?
[20:14] Calvino Rabeni: and nursing along the money and social net here
[20:15] Calvino Rabeni: Washington State, USA .. sometimes Oregon
[20:15] Calvino Rabeni: Are you in Japan?
[20:15] Hana Furlough: yep
[20:16] Hana Furlough: washington and oregon -- both nice places

[20:17] Calvino Rabeni: I need to go, thanks for the conversation :)
[20:18] Santoshima Resident: bye Cal ~ pleaant evening
[20:18] Calvino Rabeni: Take care, Daedalus, Hana, Santoshima :)
[20:18] Hana Furlough: great chatting with you all
[20:18] Daedalus687 Resident: bye
[20:18] Santoshima Resident: and pleasant
[20:18] Hana Furlough: until next time!
[20:18] Calvino Rabeni: bye :)
[20:18] Santoshima Resident: bye everyone
[20:18] Daedalus687 Resident: thanks :)
[20:18] Santoshima Resident: thank you Daedalus ~ good to see you
[20:19] Daedalus687 Resident: :)
[20:19] Santoshima Resident: cheers