2013.12.30 13:00 - Is "Real" Real?

The Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal. The comments are by Eliza Madrigal.

Zon Kwan: hi bruce

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Zon.
Bruce Mowbray: Still rezzing, here.
Bruce Mowbray: Did Eliza say she wouldn't be here today, do you remember?
Zon Kwan: havnt seen anyone
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm.
Bruce Mowbray: I could use an extra hour today -- have guests coming in thte morning and need to clean house.
Zon Kwan: all seem to be busy at this time
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm.
Bruce Mowbray: Eliza's not in-world. . . neither is Wol or aggers, who are usually here for her session.
Zon Kwan: perhaps she has cancelled
Bruce Mowbray: Anything you feel a desire or need to chat about -- I'll stay, in that case.
Bruce Mowbray: Here comes WOl.
Zon Kwan: dont stay for me, i must go soon anyhow
Bruce Mowbray: kk, anarewoly seems slow in arrivings.
Bruce Mowbray: So, I bid you farewell for now.

Oops--rewind :)



Wol Euler: greetings and salutations
Zon Kwan: hi wol
Bruce Mowbray: Greetings, Wol!
Bruce Mowbray: Here comes Eliza now!
Eliza Madrigal: Hi everyone - I am SO sorry to be late...
Wol Euler: hooray
Zon Kwan: hi Eliza :)
Wol Euler: I just got here a minute ago, and didn't think to apologise :) oops
Eliza Madrigal: time slipped from my hands
Eliza Madrigal: :) you aren't host Wol
Wol Euler: ah :) true
Zon Kwan: thats what skating does
Eliza Madrigal: love skating in SL

Eliza Madrigal: So how are you all doing? Topics come up while I was on the way?
Wol Euler: not that I heard.
Wol Euler looks at Zon.
Zon Kwan: very quiet
Bruce Mowbray: No topics from me --- just got here myself.
Wol Euler smiles.
Eliza Madrigal: recovery from holidays mode?
Wol Euler: pretty much, aye
Bruce Mowbray: Sort of, yes.
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Eliza Madrigal: and here comes Agatha
Wol Euler: I got home noon on Saturday, still somewhat out-of-time
Eliza Madrigal: hopefully you have a little while before full work schedule, Wol?
Wol Euler: well, half-days only, if that counts
Eliza Madrigal: it does!
Wol Euler: full-time again on the second
Bruce Mowbray: Oh my, but at least you'll get a bit of a break.
Eliza Madrigal nods
Zon Kwan: hi Agatha
Wol Euler: the half-days, yes :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Aggers :)
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, aggers.
Wol Euler: aggerses
Eliza Madrigal: :)

Eliza Madrigal: the first pause time comes up soon, better grab a seat ^^
Eliza Madrigal: >off we go in -2 minutes<
Bruce Mowbray: 5 minutes?
Eliza Madrigal: yes, lets?
Zon Kwan: prepares to be still
Bruce Mowbray: yes, let's.
Agatha Macbeth: Ah
Agatha Macbeth: Finally
Eliza Madrigal: Wonderful :)
Wol Euler nods.
Agatha Macbeth: Boing

Eliza Madrigal: I'll suggest a question going in... "what is real for you?"

--BELL--

Wol Euler smiles.
Eliza Madrigal: thanks :)
Wol Euler: _/|\_
Zon Kwan: real seems to mean real relative to the subject (me) and distinct to any absolute real

Zon Kwan: hi Zen :)
Agatha Macbeth: Enter the skating DJ...
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen :)
Wol Euler: really real to me was bodily exhaustion: I fell asleep.
Bruce Mowbray: Welcome, Zen-ji.
Agatha Macbeth: Aww
Wol Euler: hello zen
Eliza Madrigal: good... that means we are relaxing you
Zen Arado: Hi all
Wol Euler grins.
Agatha Macbeth gives Wollie a pillow
Wol Euler chews on it thoughtfully.
Agatha Macbeth: 0.0

Eliza Madrigal: my thoughts are similar to yours Zon, that 'real' is in relation
Agatha Macbeth: It's all relative?
Eliza Madrigal: sometimes something less real happens then seems to await its context
Zon Kwan: real to me is then what i can work with
Eliza Madrigal: tangible?
Zon Kwan: thoughts too
Bruce Mowbray listens....
Eliza Madrigal: hunger and food, fatigue and sleep, loneliness and company... these seem 'real' to human experience
Zon Kwan: thoughts, feelings, actions
Zen Arado: experiences are real
Zon Kwan: dreams
Zen Arado: thoughts and words describig them are not
Zen Arado: ?
Wol Euler nods.
Zon Kwan: my thought is real to me
Eliza Madrigal: then what do we encounter when we read a wonderful book?
Zon Kwan: as is my dream
Zon Kwan: i really dream
Zen Arado: we enjoy thoughts
Zen Arado: and dreams
Eliza Madrigal: mind food :)
Agatha Macbeth: Memories dreams & relections

Wol Euler: the experience of reading, and the memory of what was read, and the changes it (may) bring, are as real as anything physical IMO
Eliza Madrigal: that's how we break bread in the virtual world... sharing thoughts?
Zen Arado: the problem is that 'real' is just an idea , a concept
Zon Kwan: i really talk to you now using words
Agatha Macbeth: The last supper maybe
Zen Arado: that beaks down if you examine it too closely?
Zon Kwan: we must not mix absolute and relative real zen

Wol Euler: real might mean "the objective truth of what happened, as distinct from my interpretation of its meaning or causation"
Zen Arado: hwo could anything not be real?
Zon Kwan: thoughts and words are relatively real
Zen Arado: what is here is just what it is
Zon Kwan: not absolutely

Wol Euler: that the child pushed a glass of the table is real
Wol Euler: that she did that deliberately is my interpretation, and may be true but is not real

Zen Arado: maybe it's our making distinctions that clouds the whole issue
Eliza Madrigal: absolute/relative are vehicles of understanding too
Eliza Madrigal: ie concepts
Zen Arado: a dualism of real/not real
Wol Euler: is "real" real=
Wol Euler: ?
Zon Kwan: real is just a concept
Zen Arado: heheh
Wol Euler: right :)
Zen Arado: no :)

Eliza Madrigal: what comes to mind is Velveteen Rabbit and Pinocchio
Wol Euler smiles.
Agatha Macbeth: Or the White Rabbit even
Zen Arado: heh I was just reading that in French
Zen Arado: le lapin blanc
Eliza Madrigal: :))

Eliza Madrigal: perfect time for our pause
Eliza Madrigal: ...

Agatha Macbeth: I really must stop following him

Zon Kwan: objectivity is not real

--BELL--

Zon Kwan: (slips quietly away)
Eliza Madrigal waves quietly to Zon
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Wol Euler giggles.

Eliza Madrigal likes the comment Zon made before leaving..
Eliza Madrigal: anyway we don't need to stay on this topic... just thought you might like it due to email conversations :)
Wol Euler: it's real insofar as a concept can be real
Wol Euler: clearly you can't put a kilo and a half of it in a suitcase and give it to Mom
Bruce Mowbray ponders "just" a concept. . . .
Agatha Macbeth: Would she want it anyway?
Eliza Madrigal: concepts can be so real.. can shape a life, a way of seeing the world
Wol Euler: indeed
Wol Euler: it's a target, an ambition, a reminder
Agatha Macbeth pokes Blub

Eliza Madrigal: I should recuse myself from the conversation since I've been watching lots of Dr Who :P

Bruce Mowbray: How would we "frame" our experiences and relate them to others' experiences, or to our own histories without concepts?

Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Agatha Macbeth: Ah, you recusant :p
Bruce Mowbray: Dr. Who would do that....
Wol Euler: (linguistic sidetrack: in German, insubstantial nouns like objectivity, love, hope, friendship, justice etc - are all female)
Eliza Madrigal giggles
Wol Euler grins.
Agatha Macbeth: Wonder why?
Bruce Mowbray: wow.
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, there is a fascinating session to read on this topic!
Eliza Madrigal: one moment...
Agatha Macbeth: Do tell!
Eliza Madrigal: https://wiki.playasbeing.org/Chat_Logs/2013/12/2013.12.26_19%3a00_-_Language_and_Other_Kinds_of_Containers
Eliza Madrigal: Rasima is a linguistics student..says interesting things re German language

Zen Arado: concepts useful for communicating ideas sure
Eliza Madrigal: for connection... what could be more real than that :)
Wol Euler nods.

Eliza Madrigal: My younger daughter and I agreed that Dr Who is more realistic to how it feels to actually live, than most normal shows :))
Agatha Macbeth: Of course
Wol Euler: interesting.
Eliza Madrigal: maybe fewer guns
Eliza Madrigal: ^^
Agatha Macbeth: When in doubt jump in a police box
Eliza Madrigal giggles
Eliza Madrigal: well, like on thursday I'll be a bridesmaid for a girl who came back into my life about a year or so ago... and it seems like I had a big space to fill

Bruce Mowbray: Speaking of "real," how about those "reality" shows so popular on American TV....?
Agatha Macbeth: Aww
Bruce Mowbray: Like so-called "reality": Duck Dynasty.

Wol Euler: awwwwww :)
Wol Euler: very nice
Wol Euler: erm, the wedding, not the shows
Agatha Macbeth: Osiyo K
Bruce Mowbray: and all those bearded guys are actually yuppies. . .
Wol Euler: and the return of the friend

Korel Laloix: heya
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Kori!
Wol Euler: hello korel
Agatha Macbeth: Wow you're early
Eliza Madrigal nods... I dreamed about her arrival beforehand, but the comparison is simply that the space reordered things for a while
Korel Laloix smiles
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Kori! :)

Eliza Madrigal: nothing less real than reality shows, Bruce :)
Wol Euler: yes.
Eliza Madrigal: they are generally just commercials

--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal: (oops... 5 minutes please) :)
Korel Laloix: brb

Eliza Madrigal: lollol
Wol Euler: eh?
Agatha Macbeth: Lollipop?
Eliza Madrigal: I sat on the bell

Bruce Mowbray: These "ducks" apparently knew a thing or two about money, burmuda shorts, and golfing long before they grew beards: http://theantijunecleaver.com/2013/1...-less-reality/ (So, even "reality shows" aren't "real." - and maybe ESPECIALLY those.)
Wol Euler: ah :)
Agatha Macbeth: Lucky bell
Eliza Madrigal giggles :P

Wol Euler: sorry, bruce, not gonna look at that. I took a vow never to look at anything involving those sons of inquity
Eliza Madrigal: I know nothing of that show except for the anti-gay comment on the news
Wol Euler: perhaps I am missing one of the high points of post-Renaissance culture, but you know what: I doubt it.
Wol Euler: call me prejudiced :)
Zen Arado: not a fan of reality TV
Agatha Macbeth: Hello prejudiced
Zen Arado: real is one thing it is not

Bruce Mowbray: I've never seen their show, actually - and never will.
Bruce Mowbray: but, isn't it amazing what folks will accept in the name of "reality" these days...?
Zen Arado: from short excerpts .....yuck
Bruce Mowbray: and the Ducks have made the most of that.
Agatha Macbeth: Something to do with Republicans?
Bruce Mowbray: (faking it all the way...)
Eliza Madrigal: has to be some tipping point somewhere... I keep looking for it
Zen Arado: lots of egoistic individuals posing and primping
Agatha Macbeth: Ah, same thing

Eliza Madrigal: some silly things are just fine as long as one knows they are just that
Agatha Macbeth: Yes like David Cameron
Eliza Madrigal: (imo) but when approached that way they usually don't retain interest
Eliza Madrigal: lol Agatha
Eliza Madrigal: once Stim suggested stopping to watch something... but REALLY watch it
Eliza Madrigal: not half watching
Wol Euler nods.
Eliza Madrigal: stop everything and really see what you are seeing
Agatha Macbeth: Think I'd get square eyes
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Wol Euler nods.
Eliza Madrigal: I think he gave Mick similar advice on cigars?
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Wol Euler: heheheheh
Wol Euler: nice one
Agatha Macbeth: Or motorbikes

Wol Euler: but it's true, taking something seriously often reveals aspects that make it worth taking seriously
Eliza Madrigal: it is that a habit holds on longer if you are attending to it with less attention
Wol Euler: one of my tutors said the same thing
Eliza Madrigal nods Wol

Zen Arado: our brains make rapid automatic interpretations though
Zen Arado: maybe that's why meditation is so good
Wol Euler: which we try to remember to drop :)
Agatha Macbeth: WB Korel
Bruce Mowbray: wb, Kori.
Eliza Madrigal: wb Kori :)
Wol Euler: wb
Zen Arado: we slow things down and see the crap our brains produce
Korel Laloix: heya
Zen Arado: Hi Kori
Eliza Madrigal nods Zen.. meditation is good... though I have to qualify and not agree with our brains producing crap (at least not all the time :P)
Agatha Macbeth: Ker-app

Eliza Madrigal: I think Einstein had it right regarding humans just forgetting the order of things
Wol Euler: :)
Eliza Madrigal: my I'm opinionated today... sorry :)
Wol Euler: it's great, keep going :)
Agatha Macbeth: Maybe it's the weather?
Zen Arado: guess we all are
Zen Arado: but I am saying 'we' again :)
Eliza Madrigal: maybe its all the thoughts I don't let out til I get here
Bruce Mowbray: wonderful, Eliza!
Agatha Macbeth: You could always tell the cats about it

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: I value your thoughts.
Eliza Madrigal: :) thank you Bruce, that's kind to say...
Eliza Madrigal: but apology stands :)

Bruce Mowbray: welcome, Qt.
Agatha Macbeth: Is it time to skate yet?
Eliza Madrigal: it being the hour .... that seems like a good idea
Agatha Macbeth: Sera QT
Wol Euler: hello qt!
Qt Core: a very late hi all
Eliza Madrigal: I have to leave soon to shop, but would love to
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Qt!!
Agatha Macbeth: Yay
Eliza Madrigal: heading to the lake...
Eliza Madrigal: it is frozen..not sure if you've seen Wol?
Zen Arado: Hi Qt
Eliza Madrigal: Qt come along...
Wol Euler: where?
Eliza Madrigal: in the village in front of Aggers place
Eliza Madrigal: you have skates don't you Bruce? I think you do...
Eliza Madrigal: and Kori?
Korel Laloix: Take care all.
Eliza Madrigal: okay, sys

Korel Laloix: I will pass on the skating... thanks though