2013.12.29 07:00 - Real Needs Context

The Guardian for this meeting was Bleu Oleander. The comments are by Bleu Oleander.

Bleu Oleander: 's current display-name is "Bleu".
--BELL--
Korel Laloix: Heya
Bleu Oleander: hiya Kori
Korel Laloix: Heya
Bleu Oleander: how r u?
Korel Laloix: How you been?
Bleu Oleander: great u?
Korel Laloix: Good.. been a great couple of weeks now.
Bleu Oleander: very nice!
Korel Laloix: Graduation and birthday and all.
Bleu Oleander: ah, happy birthday!
Korel Laloix: Looking forward to new years and Christmas.
Korel Laloix: Thanks.
Bleu Oleander: hopefully a good year for all!
Eliza Madrigal: 's current display-name is "Eliza".
Korel Laloix: Most people I know have not had good years... tough all around
Bleu Oleander: hey Eliza :)
Korel Laloix: Heya
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bleu, Kori :)
Bleu Oleander: remembered my session today lol
Eliza Madrigal grins
Eliza Madrigal: Holidays are like time warps
Bleu Oleander: they are!
Eliza Madrigal: glad to see you back, though!
Bleu Oleander: thanks!
Bleu Oleander: what's new at PaB?
Korel Laloix: Not been here a lot myself recently.
Eliza Madrigal: Mostly quiet for last few weeks
Bleu Oleander: rl partys perhaps
Korel Laloix: Darn RL been getting in the way..
Eliza Madrigal: but enjoying email exchanges
Korel Laloix: Some of that... but just did not have time at the end of the semester....
Bleu Oleander: ah yes, some interesting ideas
Eliza Madrigal: all finished, Kori?
Korel Laloix: but also new relationship and doing more volunteer work -- not seasonal related though.
Eliza Madrigal: wonderful :)
Korel Laloix: All graduated... diplomas in hand... smiles
Bleu Oleander: congrats!!!
Eliza Madrigal: Congratulations! That must feel *amazing*
Korel Laloix: Feels odd in some ways.. first Christmas break in years that I was not already in next semester's books.
Korel Laloix: Not sure what to do with myself sometimes.
Eliza Madrigal: a restful Christmas, imagine that :)
Korel Laloix: I do Christmas in January so it is usually good for me anyway.
Eliza Madrigal: ah, nice trick, lol
Korel Laloix: Well, my first Christian gf was Russian and of course Orthodox... so adopted that early on.
Eliza Madrigal: :) my son is learning Russian now... really enjoys it
Eliza Madrigal: none of my kids is fluent in Spanish though... highly inconvenient in Miami
Bleu Oleander: yes!
Eliza Madrigal: silly people...learning French, Russian, Sanskrit...
Eliza Madrigal: hahah
Korel Laloix: Sama could sing in Russian in such a way...
Korel Laloix: Was amazing.
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Eliza Madrigal: interesting to think of how many things we are drawn to that don't seem practical at the time but turn out to have some link, or find some link, later on
Korel Laloix: brb
Eliza Madrigal: nonlinear time at work
Bleu Oleander: our past experiences guide our journeys
Korel Laloix: Grandma just decided she does feel like going to church this morning.. so I am off.
Korel Laloix: Thanks for the chat all.. take care
Eliza Madrigal: okay, enjoy the day with Gramdma Kori, bfn
Bleu Oleander: ok ntsy Kori
Korel Laloix: ciao
Eliza Madrigal: just us chickens
Bleu Oleander: to solve the problems of the world lol
Eliza Madrigal: haha... yes that's it. I'll take your lead, lol
Bleu Oleander: lol
Bleu Oleander: ok so .... the concept of "real" was interesting to think about
Bleu Oleander: sounds like an interesting movie ... Her
Eliza Madrigal nods....
--BELL--
Bleu Oleander: what was real about the pause for you?
Eliza Madrigal: watching my curiosities... my hurried feeling to get back to the interesting topic
Bleu Oleander: hey Aggers
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Aggers :)
Agatha Macbeth: G'day folks ♥
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Adams :)
Agatha Macbeth: Watching your curiousities?
Bleu Oleander: hey Adams
Agatha Macbeth: Hello Adams
Agatha Macbeth: Sounds interesting
Adams Rubble: Hello Bleu, Eliza and Agatha :)
Bleu Oleander: we're talking about the concept of "real"
Agatha Macbeth: Real what? :p
Bleu Oleander: :P
Bleu Oleander: really confusing
Agatha Macbeth: Real gone kid
Eliza Madrigal: during the pause I felt my excitement to hear others' ideas but also made a small determination to let it go for a few seconds :)
Agatha Macbeth watches Liz drop it
Bleu Oleander: can we know what is real?
Agatha Macbeth: It's a sense thing I guess
Eliza Madrigal: real is always compared to what we think of as ourselves maybe
Agatha Macbeth: Tricky that
Bleu Oleander: real relationships to our environment and our own thoughts?
Agatha Macbeth: See the holde that's left when you take yourelf out maybe?
Agatha Macbeth: hole*
Eliza Madrigal: hmmm, interesting
Bleu Oleander: how can we take ourselves out?
Bleu Oleander: and where do we go?
Eliza Madrigal: the more direct the more real:)
Agatha Macbeth: Hm, isn't that what we're supposed to be doing here? :p
Adams Rubble: Someone has said we can appreciate the presentation :)
Agatha Macbeth: (Or did i get it wrong?)
Bleu Oleander: can we do that though?
Eliza Madrigal: speaking only for myself I do seem to equate presence with real
Bleu Oleander: or is it a simulation of what we think it would be like?
Eliza Madrigal: the experience of presence
Adams Rubble: our avatars are good reminders of how relative our perception of reality is
Eliza Madrigal: and sometimes the contrast of seeing the simulation allows me to connect more directly with presence, if that makes sense
Bleu Oleander: don't we always connect directly with our sense of presence?
Bleu Oleander: it feels "real" to us?
Eliza Madrigal: for me no... a lot of the time I'm remembering, or trying to get back to a feeling
Eliza Madrigal: and looking for that same one up ahead
Eliza Madrigal: hard to drop that :)
Bleu Oleander: but isn't remembering a part of being present?
Adams Rubble: presentation is different than presence or being present
Eliza Madrigal: can be...
Bleu Oleander: we remember in the present
Bleu Oleander: our memories are "real"
Bleu Oleander: what's the difference between presentation and presence?
Adams Rubble is feeling like she has not been awaay for months
Eliza Madrigal: what Aggers said has resonance ... that even in looking in memories, they are direct or alive when I'm aware of an empty core, or hm... something like that
Eliza Madrigal: so the presentation of memories
Agatha Macbeth: :)
Bleu Oleander: empty core?
Adams Rubble: presentation is what is out there for us to perceive I think
Adams Rubble: we can appreciate it as a slide of "Being"
Adams Rubble: slice not slide
Eliza Madrigal: I like slide!
Adams Rubble: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Slide!
Eliza Madrigal: like a film.. yet itself being lively
Agatha Macbeth: 'You're out!'
Agatha Macbeth coughs
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Sorry
Eliza Madrigal: lol
Bleu Oleander: hehe
Eliza Madrigal: maybe the impossibility Bleu points to is the same thing as empty core
Eliza Madrigal: we 'can't'
Bleu Oleander: say more?
Eliza Madrigal: recognition of the fruitlessness of trying to get beyond filters through some act of doing or conceptualizing
Bleu Oleander: even the notion of filters ... hmmm
Eliza Madrigal: that's a kind of embrace of unknowing, or giving up
Adams Rubble: maybe not giving up as much as accepting
Agatha Macbeth: Embrace of unknowing...nice
Eliza Madrigal: :)
--BELL--
Bleu Oleander: was interesting to think about virtual reality
Bleu Oleander: what would make it "real"
Agatha Macbeth: Perhaps it is real to some
Bleu Oleander: and how "real" would it have to seem to engage
Eliza Madrigal: many people say that the world isn't real but the relationships are
Agatha Macbeth: Would be nice it were true ;)
Bleu Oleander: I think there is a continuum of the richness of real
Eliza Madrigal: mmm
Adams Rubble: For me, virtual reality is a reminder that in RL all might not be as it seems to be
Bleu Oleander: I think we can hone our senses to see more deeply
Eliza Madrigal: so throws the real into question?
Agatha Macbeth: Yes Bleuji, agree with that
Bleu Oleander: is there a definitive "real" ... an ultimate "real"?
Adams Rubble: God knows
Adams Rubble: :)
Bleu Oleander: or in some sense our own personal real?
Eliza Madrigal: I worry that if virtual takes on all characteristics of what we think of as real world, what makes it distinct may be lost
Bleu Oleander: or perhaps just changed?
Adams Rubble: maybe no need to worry :)
Bleu Oleander: :)
Eliza Madrigal: yes... true... isn't clear cut
Eliza Madrigal: each enriches the other and then perhaps opens further
Bleu Oleander: our real is not the same as others that have gone before us
Adams Rubble: we can just sit bacjk and enjoy the appearances
Eliza Madrigal: indeed!
Bleu Oleander: real needs context
Adams Rubble writes a note to stop thinking about work as so real
Bleu Oleander: in our lifetime (roughly) we discovered that we aren't the only galaxy ... that's amazing to me
Agatha Macbeth: That will help...
Bleu Oleander: we accept that now as part of our reality
Adams Rubble: yes, the discoveries are amazing
Agatha Macbeth: 'She had studied the universe all her life, but had overlooked its clearest message: For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love.' (Carl Sagan)
Adams Rubble: :)
Bleu Oleander: Carl had a nice way with words!
Agatha Macbeth: Billions and billions! :p
Eliza Madrigal nods nods
Bleu Oleander: can't even imagine what is our own reality
Bleu Oleander: so will we fall in love with our operating systems?
Agatha Macbeth: Perhaps 'reality' is the neighbourhood ;-)
Bleu Oleander: the "hood"
Bleu Oleander: lol
Eliza Madrigal grins
Agatha Macbeth: Da hood
Eliza Madrigal: the operation system question plays with my mind... my idea of an OS is something that is adapting due to its relationship to me... kind of one sided like a diarty
Eliza Madrigal: *diary
Bleu Oleander: exactly what makes it irresitible!
Eliza Madrigal: lol
Agatha Macbeth: Drop a note to Bill Gates
Eliza Madrigal: but the idea would still be akin to navel gazing
Eliza Madrigal: (to my thinking/filter)
Bleu Oleander: exactly .... our fav subject lol
Eliza Madrigal: one of the signs of a person coming out of a coma sincerely... or moving from a state of unconsciousness to consciousness, is spontaneity
Eliza Madrigal: unpredictableness... jumping out of expectation/looping
Eliza Madrigal: but maybe we don't know ourselves well enough, is that what you mean Bleu?
Adams Rubble must be in a coma :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bleu Oleander: know ourselves? hard question
Bleu Oleander: we think we do lol
Agatha Macbeth: People have been trying to do that since Plato's time
Bleu Oleander: probably earlier even
Eliza Madrigal: maybe a good NY resolution, be surprised by yourself :)
--BELL--
Agatha Macbeth: Oh I often am
Bleu Oleander: me too!
Eliza Madrigal: am often surprised by you guys too :)
Bleu Oleander: be more curious is my ny rez
Eliza Madrigal: nice!
Bleu Oleander: in that process I always surprise myself
Agatha Macbeth: Just don't kill the cat
Bleu Oleander: curiousity never killed the dog haha
Eliza Madrigal laughs
Agatha Macbeth: True that
Adams Rubble: :)
Bleu Oleander: moral: stay away from cats lol
Agatha Macbeth: Maybe no bones involved
Eliza Madrigal: they seem to find me
Bleu Oleander: hehe
Agatha Macbeth: ^.^
Eliza Madrigal: but this year may bring a dog into our lives
Agatha Macbeth: Woof
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bleu Oleander: a higher power!
Bleu Oleander: woof woof
Bleu Oleander: ok on that note have to go
Agatha Macbeth: Barking up the wrong tree
Eliza Madrigal: cats are really unpredictable
Eliza Madrigal: Okay Bleu, so nice to see you
Agatha Macbeth: Bye Bleuji, hny
Bleu Oleander: nice to see you all
Eliza Madrigal: hope this conversation keeps going via emails too
Adams Rubble: bye bleu
Bleu Oleander: and Happy New Year!
Eliza Madrigal: Happy New Year!
Adams Rubble: Happy New Year to you too
Bleu Oleander: yes Eliza ... would be fun!
Agatha Macbeth: Skate well
Bleu Oleander: bye for now
Bleu Oleander: hugs
Agatha Macbeth: Huggies
Eliza Madrigal: maybe falling in love with an OS is playing as falling in love... or rehearsing
Eliza Madrigal: Hugs <3
Zen Arado: 's current display-name is "Zen".
Agatha Macbeth: Can't imagine falling in love with an OS
Adams Rubble: Hello Zen :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen :)
Agatha Macbeth: Yjey usually drive me round the bend
Agatha Macbeth: Hello Zenny
Eliza Madrigal: I often have preferred the company of writing to people, haha
Zen Arado: Hi all
Agatha Macbeth: One does not preclude the other I find ;-)
Eliza Madrigal: yes :)
Agatha Macbeth: Or reading either
Eliza Madrigal nods... cycles around
Zen Arado: Windows 8 I love you
Zen Arado: not
Eliza Madrigal: hehehe
Agatha Macbeth: Somebody must
Eliza Madrigal: SL has often raised my expectations for what I look for in "the real world"
Eliza Madrigal: and find :)
Agatha Macbeth: Yes
Zen Arado: in what way?
Adams Rubble still waiting for teleports
Zen Arado: ah yes
Eliza Madrigal: mostly the level of connection with people... sense of wonder in environment
Zen Arado: would like that one myself
Eliza Madrigal: what can be shared
Eliza Madrigal: seen
Agatha Macbeth: Would be fun to mute certain people too
Eliza Madrigal: hahaha
Adams Rubble: :)
Adams Rubble: we can't talk here
Zen Arado: was intrigued by google glass body language
Eliza Madrigal: ...there's a kind of hush, all over the world...
Agatha Macbeth: Tonight?
Zen Arado: that would imprive things in here I think
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Are typos not body language?
Zen Arado: maybe we underestimate body langyage importance
Zen Arado: nods
Eliza Madrigal: Rosedale seems to think so too... I once heard him say in a talk (heard in SL different than heard in RL) that the closer the connection is experienced, the higher the civility level
Zen Arado: I'm not good at it in SL
Agatha Macbeth: Hm
Zen Arado: tilts head
Agatha Macbeth: Hi Vord
Zen Arado: Hi Vorder
Eliza Madrigal: it is like when in a car, people will act in ways they wouldn't in a face to face situation
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Vorder
Adams Rubble: Hel;lo Vorder :)
Vorder Forder: hello
Zen Arado: more like ace language
Zen Arado: face
Eliza Madrigal: Vorder we've been talking about what makes for 'real' experience
Zen Arado: probably face does most of it
Eliza Madrigal nods
Zen Arado: though some use hands a lot
Agatha Macbeth: 'Original face'
Zen Arado: shrugs shoulders
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Zen Arado: wags finger
Eliza Madrigal: face lets presence through
Adams Rubble must go. Thank you all :)
Zen Arado: it's so automatic
Adams Rubble: bye
Eliza Madrigal: thank you Adams, special to see you
Agatha Macbeth: Bye Adams, nice to see you
Zen Arado: we don't have awareness of it
Zen Arado: bye Adams
Vorder Forder: we can´t find real experiencein second life that´s for sure,or what?
Eliza Madrigal: that's the question :)
Zen Arado: depends how you defing 'real' Vorder
Eliza Madrigal: to be in SL or not to be in SL...
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Agatha Macbeth: That is the question
Eliza Madrigal: precisely
Zen Arado: one of those words that crumbles under scrutiny I find
Agatha Macbeth scrutinises reality
Eliza Madrigal: it has something to do with open endedness
--BELL--
Vorder Forder: reality:the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them
Eliza Madrigal: our 'face' in SL is quite different than otherwise.. or is it. Meaning, 'face' is really presentation. Some are attracted to an avatar based on outward appearance, but I think in time it is really about unique presentations of expressions and connections
Zen Arado: you could say that nothing actually exists since everything is changing though
Agatha Macbeth: Yes, Ouspensky said something like that
Vorder Forder: notthing is the same from moment to moment ....as you say
Eliza Madrigal: (in that sense one's 'face' in SL and RL would be the same, but what people see may be different)
Zen Arado: 'real' seems to need something to be solid and graspable
Agatha Macbeth: Back to grabbing things ;-)
Eliza Madrigal: I went to see Saving Mr. Banks, and didn't realize PL Travers was a Gurdjeiff explorer :)
Eliza Madrigal: *hadn't realized
Agatha Macbeth: Hm, who is he?
Eliza Madrigal: PL Travers wrote Mary Poppins
Agatha Macbeth: Aha
Zen Arado: ah
Agatha Macbeth: TY
Vorder Forder: oh la la
Eliza Madrigal: hehe
Agatha Macbeth: Well, a lady flying through the air with a brolly, there real for you :p
Eliza Madrigal: revealing what is real through simulation :)
Agatha Macbeth: Mm
Eliza Madrigal: I need to go.... lovely to see you all on this (for me) Sunday morning
Agatha Macbeth: Yes moi aussi
Zen Arado: me too I gues
Zen Arado: s
Vorder Forder: take good care
Eliza Madrigal: hugs and Happy New Year!
Agatha Macbeth: We must have another skating session soon
Zen Arado: yeh
Eliza Madrigal: YES
Agatha Macbeth: BFN
Zen Arado: byee and HNY
Eliza Madrigal: ♥ ♥ ♥
Vorder Forder: :-)