2009.06.24 19:00 - Labels and Categories

 

2009.06.24 19:00 - Labels and Categories

The Guardian for this meeting was stevenaia Michinaga. The comments are by stevenaia Michinaga.

Pila Mulligan: hi Steve

stevenaia Michinaga: hello Pila

stevenaia Michinaga: I am filing in for Sophia

stevenaia Michinaga: filling

Pila Mulligan: ahh, cool

stevenaia Michinaga: hope you weren't expecting her

Pila Mulligan: when I saw no one was here I was not sure what to expect

stevenaia Michinaga: yes, I was here sunday and no one was here for the hour

Pila Mulligan: :)

stevenaia Michinaga: you just never know

Pila Mulligan: ahh, spontaneity

stevenaia Michinaga: how have you been, volcano quiet down?

Pila Mulligan: yes, all is quiet on the western edge (of the US)

Pila Mulligan: North Korea is getting more publicity here actually

stevenaia Michinaga: yes, I heard, what an interesting rumor, how did that get started?

Pila Mulligan: from Japan

Pila Mulligan: maybe Pema :)

stevenaia Michinaga: grins

Pila Mulligan: someone in th japanese Defense Agency suggested it actually

Pila Mulligan: Japanese*

Pila Mulligan: as a maybe

Pila Mulligan: next thing you know newspaper headlines say North Korea Target Hawaii

stevenaia Michinaga: on the 4th

Pila Mulligan: hi Pema

Pema Pera: Hi Pila and Steve!

stevenaia Michinaga: maybe they are just celebrating

stevenaia Michinaga: hello Pema

Pila Mulligan: they have a holiday on the 6th I believe

Pila Mulligan: and the Great Leader may like fireworks

stevenaia Michinaga: apparently

Pila Mulligan: [19:06] Pila Mulligan: North Korea is getting more publicity here actually [19:06] stevenaia Michinaga: yes, I heard, what an interesting rumor, how did that get started? [19:06] Pila Mulligan: from Japan [19:07] Pila Mulligan: maybe Pema :)

Pila Mulligan: [19:07] Pila Mulligan: someone in th Japanese Defense Agency suggested it actually [19:07] Pila Mulligan: Japanese* [19:07] Pila Mulligan: as a maybe [19:07] Pila Mulligan: next thing you know newspaper headlines say North Korea Target Hawaii

Pila Mulligan: I don;t think many people take it seriously here though

stevenaia Michinaga: where in the world is Pema Pera?

Pema Pera: what was the rumor?

Pila Mulligan: North Korea will fire a ballistic missile at Hawaii early next month

Pema Pera: I'm in Kyoto, Japan, or at least my typist is :-)

Pila Mulligan: :)

Pema Pera: interesting idea, doubt they can aim that well though

Pila Mulligan: me too

stevenaia Michinaga: I think they may try for distance not accuracy

Pema Pera: they might hit the Japanese telescope at the highest mountain in Hawaii, that would be an interesting political twist

Pila Mulligan: there is some tension with the UN order to inspect suspected weapon transporting N Korean vessels

Pila Mulligan: remember the Pueblo

stevenaia Michinaga: it all seem like a waste in any case

Pila Mulligan: fluff and bluster mostly

Pila Mulligan: but that's what makes politics

Pila Mulligan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Pueblo_(AGER-2)

Pila Mulligan: the Pueblo was a US spy ship captured by North Korea a while back

stevenaia Michinaga: always amazed what has a wiki site

Pila Mulligan: :)

Pila Mulligan: 40 years ago, but some people are still pissed off about it

Pila Mulligan: a relic of the cold war

Pila Mulligan: so Pema after yesterday I think it may be better to try to define metaphysical than to try to define non-physical, regarding Eliza's question (her question was 'is anything non-physical')

Pema Pera: :-)

Pema Pera: for me, categories are less interesting than descriptions of what we are actually dealing with

Pila Mulligan: yes, but you know how the science-meatphysics boundary often arises in doing so

Pema Pera: we can endlessly define new categories and discuss borderline cases, where they go

Pila Mulligan: I think quite a few of the experiences people describe here are borderline cases

Pila Mulligan: bordering metaphysics (as a vague term)

Pema Pera: I would say: if it is real, let's find out what it is and what we can do with it -- if it is not real, but a speculation or fantasy, it is more a question of psychology

stevenaia Michinaga: hmm, meatphysics, a new category

Pema Pera: everything that is real is also natural, I would say

Pema Pera: part of nature

Pema Pera: why make a distinction?

Pila Mulligan: yes, I agree with the psychology relationship, and metaphysic may make a nice category, being part of history and human nature

Pema Pera: of course there may be many things that are real that are not yet acknowledged by science

stevenaia Michinaga: when was that log Pila?

Pila Mulligan: :)

Pila Mulligan: the log,Steve -- I was thinking future instead of past

Pema Pera: I would be happy to drop metaphysics as a category

Pila Mulligan: is it a category?

Pila Mulligan: already

Pema Pera: and say : some parts of physics have been discovered yet, some parts not yet

stevenaia Michinaga: aww

Pila Mulligan: metaphysics has been around a long time, it used to be science

Pema Pera: but I won't quibble with others using other categories, as long as we know what we are talking about

Pila Mulligan: before science became what it is

Pila Mulligan: traditional views of nature may be close

stevenaia Michinaga: which traditions

stevenaia Michinaga: pre modern?

Pila Mulligan: yes

Pila Mulligan: most cultures have well-developed sciences that predate modern times

Pila Mulligan: quite complex and evolved too

stevenaia Michinaga: so "science" is just another in a line

Pila Mulligan: well, it is the end point, so far

Pila Mulligan: but it had predecessors and will no doubt have successors

stevenaia Michinaga: the latest view always seems that way

Pila Mulligan: fashion

Pema Pera: again, it depends what you want to call "science" -- the word is a label and category, and you can decide to use it only for modern science, the last five hundred years, or you can use it for all experience-based systems of knowledge -- it's just a category, and as such uninteresting

Pema Pera: unless you want to use the category for political purposes

Pema Pera: to argue that other cultures are equally good as ours in some way

Pema Pera: but I prefer to argue that directly

Pema Pera: rather than through the use of categories :-)

Pila Mulligan: well, maybe the part I am interested in the ths sulling of reality from the various parts and phases

Pila Mulligan: culling*

Pema Pera: clearly, it is true that many other traditions have something that is like science, in being experience based, and equally clearly they don't have the systematic mathematical approach that science has -- both are clear, and it's anyone's pick what label or category to use for the word "science"

Pila Mulligan: yes, for sure

Pila Mulligan: empiricism is an old art

Pila Mulligan: proof is a new art maybe

stevenaia Michinaga: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empiricism

Pema Pera: universality is very interesting, in that science transcends traditions and cultures . . . .

Pema Pera: so far I don't think any tradition or religion quite does that

Pema Pera: Buddhism may come closest, but is still mired in debates between sects

Pema Pera: THE hall mark of science is that differences are welcomed and then sorted out

Pema Pera: science does not form schools that fight each other forever

Pema Pera: they want to reach agreement, and typically within a few decades succeed in doing so

Pema Pera: inconceivable to have an "Einsteinian School of Science" and a "Newtonian School of Science" -- like Theravada and Mahayana. For me that is a HUGE difference between modern science and ANY other approach, traditional or not. In fact, when I say that PaB has a scientific angle to it, I mean exactly that universalism, that we don't form/stress different sects, fortunately!!!

Pila Mulligan: hi Paradise

Pema Pera: Hi Paradise!

Pema Pera: Good seeing you again!

Paradise Tennant: hi pila pema steve :)))

Paradise Tennant: good to be here :)

Pila Mulligan: Pab has the Pema Trying to Capture Stim Sect

stevenaia Michinaga: hello Paradise

Pema Pera: hehehe

Pila Mulligan: :)

Pema Pera: Stim and I see eye to eye on anything important

Pila Mulligan: Slippery Stims Escapes Sect

Paradise Tennant: ?

Pema Pera: though we may emphasize things in different words, within three sentences we are back on the same place again

Pila Mulligan: but you are cof course rights about the universal aspect of science, for the time being anyway

Pema Pera: I am more willing to approximate

Pema Pera: he prefers to always be precise

Pila Mulligan: Stim is more cautious

Pema Pera: yes

Pila Mulligan: but he lacks your enthusiasm

Pila Mulligan: it seems

Pema Pera: oh, he has it, at least as much as I do, but it is hidden

Pila Mulligan: he has yet to show his poetry

Pema Pera: he expresses it in ways that don't get through the filter of SL

Pema Pera: or most of RL for that matter

Pila Mulligan: :)

Pema Pera: if you would come to the retreat, you would see it

Pila Mulligan: Stim the Inscrutable?

Pema Pera: when you ask him in the right way about the nature of reality

Pema Pera: but only if you do that in a really serious way -- the flippant approach here is not a good match for his nature

Pema Pera: while I'm quite happy with that :-)

Pila Mulligan: Eos mentioned something interesting yesterday

Pila Mulligan: he is setting up something for a Shambala conference being organized by his wife

Pila Mulligan: one thing he is setting up is a conference mixing RL, SL and that internet telephone service I cannot remember

Pema Pera: Skype

Pila Mulligan: RL + SL + conference call

Pila Mulligan: yes, thank you -- Skype

Paradise Tennant: cool

Pila Mulligan: isn;t that interesting

Pila Mulligan: maybe it could be done with the PaB Retreat

Pema Pera: I would prefer to keep the PaB RL retreat focused as much as possible

Pema Pera: we only have three fully days, five in total with coming and going

Pila Mulligan: yes, I was thinking just for an hour or so, for those of us waiting for it to get a feel and say hi

Pema Pera: the big challenge will be to dive deeply into reality

Pila Mulligan: but I appreciate your view on the need to be there

Pema Pera: this is our first retreat, afterwards we can plan longer and more diverse events

Pema Pera: as many as we like, in different places and with different formats

Pema Pera: But it's a neat idea, for later, I agree, thanks!

Paradise Tennant: the retreat is in august is it not in california ?

Pila Mulligan: plus we do not yet have Eos reporting his experience with it

Pila Mulligan: the conference idea, that is

Pema Pera: yes, Paradise

Pema Pera: are you interested in attending?

Pema Pera: August 18-24

Pema Pera: oops, wrong

Paradise Tennant: could be an option

Paradise Tennant: have lots of company coming in july .. will see .. when is the deadline for registration ?

Pema Pera: August 14-28 it is

Paradise Tennant: kk

Pema Pera: August 24-28 it is

stevenaia Michinaga: will there be a posting to the wiki from the retreat, pema?

Pema Pera: so many typos

Pema Pera: REPEAT: 24-28 August

Paradise Tennant: ;))

Pila Mulligan: SL is a typo

Pema Pera: not from the retreat I think, Steve

Pema Pera: again that would be a distraction

Pema Pera: I really want everybody to focus fully on presence

Pema Pera: there and then with the group

Pema Pera: at the land

Pema Pera: in the place

Pema Pera: no cyber stuff ! ! !

Paradise Tennant: in the moment

Pema Pera: ideally no email and cell phones . . . .

Pema Pera: but that will be hard to ask :-)

Pila Mulligan: or televisions :)

Pema Pera: Hi Maggie!

Pema Pera: How nice to see you again!!

Pila Mulligan: that alone could generate a few epiphanies

Pema Pera: yes

Paradise Tennant: hi maggie

stevenaia Michinaga: hello Maggie

Pila Mulligan: hi Magdalena

Magdalena Colclough: hi :)

Magdalena Colclough: this is Max

Pila Mulligan: hi Max

Magdalena Colclough: he's my guide dog

Paradise Tennant: he is lovely

stevenaia Michinaga: he may be the first to drink from the fountain

Magdalena Colclough grins

Pema Pera: :-)

Pema Pera: How have you been, Maggie?

Magdalena Colclough: I've been good. How about all of you?

Paradise Tennant: very well thanks

Magdalena Colclough smiles

Pema Pera is always bemused about American greetings -- :-)

Pila Mulligan: the idea of using Skype or a free conference call combined with SL actually would be a blessing for those of us without the bandwidth capacity for voice at Kira events

Pema Pera: the first time somebody asked me "how are you" I actually gave a long answer!

Pila Mulligan: especially land line + SL

Paradise Tennant: :))

Magdalena Colclough grins

Magdalena Colclough: I like the long answers

Paradise Tennant: me too

Pema Pera: but we never do . . .

Pema Pera: most of the time, that is

Pema Pera: like today :-)

Pila Mulligan: it is a formal routine, usually

Pema Pera: yes, a longer form of "hi!"

Magdalena Colclough: well, let's make a pact - if any of the four of us ask another of the four, we'll give the REAL answer

Pema Pera: how are you, Maggie?

Magdalena Colclough: five of us, sorry

Pila Mulligan: six actually, with Max

Pema Pera: How is Max>

Magdalena Colclough grins

Magdalena Colclough: Max and I are very intrigued by a "Vision Quest" we are on

Pila Mulligan: oh?

Pila Mulligan: how is the vision quest?

Paradise Tennant: :))

Magdalena Colclough: exploring possibilities for SL for those who have visual disabilities

Pema Pera: fascinating!

stevenaia Michinaga: how long have you had Max?

Paradise Tennant: ;)))

Pema Pera: it would be great to have a viewer using braille!

Magdalena Colclough: an hour or two

Pila Mulligan: hmm, with text-voice translation?

Magdalena Colclough: yes

Pila Mulligan: SL is probably full of real potential there

Magdalena Colclough: someone just gave me a HUD with a better text to speech reader than the one that comes with Max

Magdalena Colclough: but Max lets you find things

Paradise Tennant: sl is full of wonderful music .. there is a diverse richness here for sight and sound

Pila Mulligan: Max speaks?

Magdalena Colclough: like typing "/2 find stevenaia"

Pila Mulligan: cool

Paradise Tennant: cool

Magdalena Colclough: well, no, it just reads the chat text

Magdalena Colclough: How are you, Pema?

Pema Pera: can you demo finding Stevenaia?

Paradise Tennant: ;))

Pema Pera: show us?

Magdalena Colclough: sure

Pila Mulligan: oops -- Max!

Pema Pera: I'm fine, Maggie, in Japan right now, have to go to a seminar in three minutes

Pema Pera: wow, how nice!

stevenaia Michinaga: well perhaps I am not here

Magdalena Colclough smiles

Pema Pera: I'm visiting Kyoto, it is almost noon here

Pila Mulligan: can Max find an empty cushion?

Magdalena Colclough: ah, did you have a nice breakfast?

Pila Mulligan: an important visual act

Magdalena Colclough: he can tell me what's around

Pila Mulligan: have a nice afternoon in Kyoto Pema-san

Magdalena Colclough: but not whether it's empty, I think

Pema Pera: sure did, traditional Japanese (breakfast)

Paradise Tennant: ;)) enjoy the seminar :)

Pema Pera: interesting question Pila!

Pila Mulligan: a nice add-on for the scripter -- to avoid sitting on steve, for example

Pema Pera: would be a great addition!

Pema Pera: (empty cushion finder)

Magdalena Colclough nods!

stevenaia Michinaga: bye pema

Pila Mulligan: bye Pema

Pema Pera: off to my seminar -- see you all soon again!

Magdalena Colclough: be well, Pema

Paradise Tennant: be well .. :)) pema

Pema Pera: and bye Max!

Pila Mulligan: i tried using a text only SL client for a while and finding a seat in an chat session was difficult

Paradise Tennant: :)) well I think I will say good night too. I have been waking very early these days.. so should be off to bed .. big wave from toronto :))

Magdalena Colclough: lol

Pila Mulligan: bye bye PAradise, sleep well

Magdalena Colclough: sleep well, Paradise

Pila Mulligan: Hey!

Paradise Tennant: thanks maggie and you .. max . good boy!

Paradise Tennant: nite nite pila steve

stevenaia Michinaga: night

stevenaia Michinaga: oops

Pila Mulligan: the most genuine appreciation of SL I've seen so far was from a disabled woman saying how thrilled she was to avi-dance with her SL husband in SL

Pila Mulligan: her RL husband

Pila Mulligan: dancing in SL -- sorry

Magdalena Colclough nods

Pila Mulligan: even as an animation, it meant a lot to her

stevenaia Michinaga: reminds me of the star trek episode were captain Pike was in a wheelchair except when his mind was controlled by aliens, then he walked (in his mind)

Magdalena Colclough nods

stevenaia Michinaga: so SL is the aliens here

stevenaia Michinaga: :)

Magdalena Colclough smiles

stevenaia Michinaga: well I must go long days ahead

Magdalena Colclough: goodnight, Steven

Pila Mulligan: bye steve -- see you next time

stevenaia Michinaga: I will be here sunday :)

Magdalena Colclough: I need to head back to my quest as well

Pila Mulligan: nice to see you Maggier and Max

Pila Mulligan: bye

Magdalena Colclough: bye, Pila