2009.06.23 13:00 - karma , kama and calmer
The Guardian for this meeting was Mickorod Renard. The comments are by Mickorod Renard
After a little chat we all get into discussing aspects of Karma
Mickorod Renard: chill time at last
Arisia Vita: me too Mic
Mickorod Renard: col
Arisia Vita: one chore down and two new ones pop up
Mickorod Renard: cool
Fael Illyar: That's the way it goes :)
Mickorod Renard: yea..hopefully I am done for today
Mickorod Renard: have you done anymore quantum stuff Ari?
Arisia Vita: any more?
Mickorod Renard: yes..like chatted with ur friends
Arisia Vita: oh, no, not since you joined me
Mickorod Renard: I seem to have been side tracked
Arisia Vita: by what?
Mickorod Renard: phew,,lots,,all mixed stuff
Mickorod Renard: and also being here,,and Stims wok
Mickorod Renard: Dreams class
Mickorod Renard: do either of you do other classes?
Fael Illyar: ah, I haven't participated much at Kira.
Fael Illyar: I find the freeform style of PaB most to my liking
Mickorod Renard: yes,,nice
Arisia Vita: I've been to some of Maxine's classes
Arisia Vita: mainly to listen
Mickorod Renard: you can loose yourself here in sl,,with so many classes
Wester Kiranov: I would like to come to more of the classes but it's pretty impossible to do them all well
Wester Kiranov: so I'm sticking with PaB and WoK
Mickorod Renard: yes,,I like WoK
Mickorod Renard: missed last one though,,last minute probs
Wester Kiranov: we noticed ;)
Mickorod Renard: ohh noo
Mickorod Renard: I must find out if I have homework
Wester Kiranov: you do
Mickorod Renard: eeeek
Mickorod Renard: Stims gonna give me detention
Wester Kiranov: it's general homework though
Mickorod Renard: ok,,I am a lil lost on the new stuff,,that Fef introduced
Mickorod Renard: oops
Mickorod Renard: there was a new class on sunday i think,,about history of architecture
Mickorod Renard: at kira
Fael Illyar: ah, yes, I was there, somehow :)
Wester Kiranov: the one with the mosques?
Mickorod Renard: wow,,was it good?
Fael Illyar: not my interests, that kind... I'm still not sure exactly why I was there :)
Pema Pera: Hi Mick, yes, for me too :-)
Wester Kiranov: ah, found the WoK homework http://ways-of-knowing.wik.is/2Explorations/Exploration_18_-_Homework%2f%2fPractice_for_the_week_18th-25th_June
Mickorod Renard: thanks wester
Mickorod Renard: I might give it a go Fael,,just in case
Mickorod Renard: I quite like the ancient architectures
Mickorod Renard: I dont suppose any of you know much about kama do you?,,silly question
Fael Illyar: karma?
Mickorod Renard: soz yes
Fael Illyar: other than avoiding it as a highly confusing term ... not really :)
Mickorod Renard: he he he
Pema Pera: it is related to the home work that Wester just pointed us too
Pema Pera: which I just read right now -- a beautiful exploration!!
Pema Pera: did anyone try it yet?
Mickorod Renard: I know the gist is about living out stuff in a way due to how previously conducted onesself
Mickorod Renard: wow,,thats spooky
Wester Kiranov: I found it quite difficult and abstract, and i wasn't the only one :)
Wester Kiranov: but i do get glimpses
Pema Pera: it's actually very concrete . . . it invites you to radically drop everything
Mickorod Renard: I havnt read it yet,,and missed last EoK
Pema Pera: it reminds me of the six words of Tilopa
Wester Kiranov: it does point out to me how i'm often not ion the present
Pema Pera: Wester just gave the URL Mick
Mickorod Renard: yes,,i saved it for later
Mickorod Renard: is it big,,or shall I look now?
Fael Illyar: hmmh, that excersize does look interesting.
Pema Pera: it's not very long, Mick
Mickorod Renard: I will have a peek
Pema Pera: it's an extremely radical form of wu-wei
Pema Pera: not-doing
Pema Pera: not-going
Pema Pera: but the beauty is, it does not just say "don't!"
Pema Pera: but rather "look how you do it"
Pema Pera: to help you not to do it
Pema Pera: look at the "you" and the "doing" and the "done
Fael Illyar: it does not tell you "you have to do this". It gives tools to undestand.
Pema Pera: in this case, the "you going toward", all three words in there
Pema Pera: yes, and invites you to use those tools
Pema Pera: does anyone want to try it, right now?
Wester Kiranov: at the gong?
Pema Pera: and report what happens?
Pema Pera: good idea!
Mickorod Renard: I think I need some more practice
Wester Kiranov: what i can see, is that i'm usually going instead of being
Mickorod Renard: can u explain that more wester?
Mickorod Renard: is the going a sort of being driven,,?
Wester Kiranov: when i'm doing this, i'm thinking of how i'm going to say it to you all. Or when I'm having dinner, i will think of the next bite instead of the one i'm chewing.
Fael Illyar: I understood that as to watch where you're giving importance to "me going".
Wester Kiranov: but i do feel i'm not quite getting this exercise...
Mickorod Renard: I am not sure whether it refers to the sort of conveyer belt we alow ourselves to ride on through life?
Pema Pera: one way to view this is to start with karma
Pema Pera: as you mentioned, Mick
Mickorod Renard: being accepting of direction without questioning whether its right or not?
Pema Pera: karma seems to have a hold on us
Mickorod Renard: ok?
Pema Pera: in that everything we tend to do and think and say seems to be driven by the past, and in anticipation of the future
Pema Pera: but we have the choice to step out of that, so to speak
Pema Pera: to let go of that whole cycle of movement
Mickorod Renard: yes?
Pema Pera: and nothing is required to do that!
Wester Kiranov: i am starting to see i'm in that cycle.
Pema Pera: ONLY to see that you're voluntarily in that cycle
Pema Pera: and to the degree you see that, you realize your'e not really in it
Pema Pera: but if you don't it seems to continue
Pema Pera: -- the hard part is, we want to step out
Pema Pera: -- thereby feeding the cycle
Mickorod Renard: I see I am in the cycle,,but although I wud like to step off that,,there are so many other people relying on the predictability of me
Pema Pera: those two don't conflict, Mick
Mickorod Renard: no?
Wester Kiranov: ah... we want to go out of the cycle?
Pema Pera: you can help others better if you don't buy into the illusion of going!
Pema Pera: the main point is: we are not in the cycle, we only think we are
Pema Pera: so therefore we cannot step out
Pema Pera: because we are already out
Mickorod Renard: well,,I am doing alot at the moment to get back onto a better track
Pema Pera: but as long as we think we are in, we encounter problems
Pema Pera: how about dropping ALL THAT, Mick?
Pema Pera: seriously
Pema Pera: for a while at least, to try
Mickorod Renard: yikes,,that sounds scary Pema
Pema Pera: you may be surprised . . . .
Pema Pera: try it for three days
Pema Pera: how's that?
Mickorod Renard: but what bit do I drop
Pema Pera: and tell us how it is
Wol Euler: getting out of bed?
Mickorod Renard: I cant stop being a parent
Pema Pera: viewing "getting out of bed" as a change in state, as a going
Mickorod Renard: or going to work
Pema Pera: just get out of bed
Fael Illyar: it's not about not doing the basic things in life.
Pema Pera: as the natural thing to do
Pema Pera: not as a means to get somewhere
Pema Pera: dont' stop anything
Pema Pera: just be a parent
Fael Illyar: it's about not explaining them to yourself.
Pema Pera: but not with the goal to raise your child
Fael Illyar: not analyzing them
Pema Pera: yes, Fael
Mickorod Renard: I think I have come some way on this,,I find that by not controlling everyone,,i am freeing myself up
Wol Euler smiles
Mickorod Renard: he he
Fael Illyar smiles.
Pema Pera: :)
Mickorod Renard: but yes,,I will try,,I am doing something similar with cigars at the mom
Wester Kiranov: working on the cigars? good.
Pema Pera: how, Mick?
Mickorod Renard: yes,,but so far I am supposed to be enjoying them,,this I find easy
Wol Euler: :)
Pema Pera: how about asking the cigar whether it wants to be smoked?
Pema Pera: each cigar
Pema Pera: before smoking it?
Mickorod Renard: but I find I am now no longer beating myself up over them
Wol Euler: very good.
Mickorod Renard: ok,,I will try that
Pema Pera: and you can still decide either to smoke it or not, indepently of what the cigar says
Wol Euler: are you smoking more or less, now that you hve given up beating yourself up?
Mickorod Renard: mm,,I guess I will smoke it
Mickorod Renard: smoking less I think
Mickorod Renard: oops,,its silent time
Pema Pera: actually, it would be a great experiment to smoke it anyway, even if the cigar tells you it doesn't want to be smoked -- then pay attention to how that feels, it may show you a lot! exploration is not obedience but testing and learning
Mickorod Renard: ok,,I have never thought about asking a cigar,,although I do talk to innanimate objects frequently
Wol Euler: :)
Pema Pera: :)
Mickorod Renard: I can tell u that trying to stop had become a torment,,and a frustration
Wol Euler nods.
Pema Pera: yes, that is a form of going
Pema Pera: to "try to stop"
Pema Pera: a very strong form of going in fact!
Mickorod Renard: now,,it seems to be becoming a take it or leave it without stress
Fael Illyar: "do or don't, there's no try" - Yoda
Pema Pera: :-)
Fael Illyar likes the quote.
Mickorod Renard: ;)
Pema Pera: yes, points to the same not-going
Mickorod Renard: at pressent I am concious of how much work I need to do,,this is another example i think
Fael Illyar: why need? where does the "need" come from?
Mickorod Renard: as before I had work all day but without being concious of deadlines
Wester Kiranov: so, we think we are going, but going is in fact impossible? we just go because we believe we go?
Mickorod Renard: yes,,exactly Fael
Mickorod Renard: yes,,I bet Wesrer
Pema Pera: well, wester, hard to answer that question
Mickorod Renard: Wester
Pema Pera: any "yes" or "no" has to be qualified by what you see
Pema Pera: you have to learn to see the forms of "going", the subtle forms
Mickorod Renard: perhaps we get there wether we think about the going or not
Wester Kiranov: perhaps there is no "there"
Pema Pera: it's not only that "going" is impossible, but stronger than that, there is no "you" who can go and no "goal" to go towards
Pema Pera: the "no you" is the hardest . . . .
Mickorod Renard: Lol Pema,,dont confuse me
Pema Pera: then look for yourself, Mick :-)
Mickorod Renard: grin
Fael Illyar: the "no you" part is especially easy to misunderstand.
We have a new visitor: Shyama Sheryffe
Wol Euler: hello shyama, come and join us
Shyama Sheryffe: hi :)
Mickorod Renard: can You say more Fael on that bit u just said?
Wol Euler: three days old :) welcome to SL
Mickorod Renard: Hiya Shy
Shyama Sheryffe: hi Mick
Fael Illyar: I'd love to but ... it's not that easy to put to words better than "no you"
Wol Euler: I'll give you an introduction in IM so that we don't disturb the group
Mickorod Renard: I have just given you a card Shy
Wol Euler: ah :) well done mick.
Mickorod Renard: thanks wol
Shyama Sheryffe: ty
Fael Illyar: one way to explain it might be with a picture painted in your mind.
Mickorod Renard: can you elaborate a bit on 'no you' Pema?
Mickorod Renard: ok
Fael Illyar: when you are "going", you change the picture to be going.
Fael Illyar: in addition to physically going.
Mickorod Renard: ok
Fael Illyar: the picture is an illusion.
Fael Illyar: hence "no you"
Mickorod Renard: ssso,,,,,erm
Mickorod Renard: where am I ?
Pema Pera: I like perhaps the best way is to look at what you're trying to do and then drop all that trying . . . . that will then answer that question, Mick
Fael Illyar: yes, don't try to understand. Understand, or don't :)
Mickorod Renard: ok,,thanks,,I have done this before,,methinks,,in the explorations
Pema Pera: well, you can do something: watch
Wester Kiranov: :D (fael)
Pema Pera: see how you're trying -- but don't try not to try
Mickorod Renard: yes!
Pema Pera: watch the trying
Pema Pera: that's enough
Time for Maxines Dream workshop at Kira
Pema Pera: I guess Maxine is starting her workshop now?
Mickorod Renard: dreams?
Mickorod Renard: you know,,I think I almost got there not long ago,,but I am a lil stressed and I think I have dropped out of the ways of understanding
Fael Illyar: it's always a choice :)
Wol Euler nods. that is my experience too, Mick, it's a constant drifting off and correting course.
Wol Euler: which is fine :)
Wol Euler: don't fret, don't shout at yourself, just correct and move on
Mickorod Renard: I would love to become immune to those outside issues
Wester Kiranov: immune? how so?
Mickorod Renard: I mean,,reach a better understanding,,and be able to stand back and observe,,instead of becomming drawn into the madness
Arisia Vita: I'm off to seek wisdom from Maxine, see you all later...
Mickorod Renard: are you ok Shy?
Wol Euler: many of us are going on to a workshop on dreams
Wester Kiranov: "I" am "leaving" as well - getting a bit of a brain overload
Fael Illyar: I suppose I'll tag along then :)
Shyama Sheryffe: yes trying to follw many things..lol
Mickorod Renard: dont forget ur homework
Mickorod Renard: yes Shy,,we have open chat sessions here mostly
Shyama Sheryffe: this is nice place
Mickorod Renard: did you want to come to dreams Shy?
Wol Euler smiles. We try.
Shyama Sheryffe: i will come again
Mickorod Renard: come again
Wol Euler: we meet here every 6 hours, 1 7 1 7
Mickorod Renard: wow great
Shyama Sheryffe: dreams ?
Mickorod Renard: yes,,at Kira Cafe now,,is a class on dreams
Wol Euler: would you like to come? I can TP you there
Shyama Sheryffe: is it BaikUn ?
Wol Euler: yes, taht's right
Shyama Sheryffe: Arisia has given me a tp
Mickorod Renard: yes it is
Wol Euler: see you there then!
Shyama Sheryffe: i woll go there now then
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