2009.10.08 07:00 - PaB & Philosophy

The Guardian for this meeting was genesis Zhangsun. The comments are by genesis Zhangsun.

Yakuzza Lethecus: morning gen
genesis Zhangsun: Morning!
genesis Zhangsun: How are you?
--BELL--
Yakuzza Lethecus: fine, just checking emails and watching an episode of an american tv show
genesis Zhangsun: what show?
Yakuzza Lethecus: house
genesis Zhangsun: what is that one about?
Yakuzza Lethecus: about that neurotic doctor who treats his patients like crap :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: but he´s supposed to be a good at diagnostics in that show
Yakuzza Lethecus: it´s kinda popular
genesis Zhangsun: oh yes!
genesis Zhangsun: he goes and lives with the patient no?
Yakuzza Lethecus: no, he sends his employee´s to break into the homes of the patients :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: it´s no reality tv or something
Yakuzza Lethecus: it´s a regular tv series
Yakuzza Lethecus: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_%28TV_series%29
Yakuzza Lethecus: do you watch any tv ?
genesis Zhangsun: not so myc a little bit
genesis Zhangsun: *much
genesis Zhangsun: I don't own a television
genesis Zhangsun: but I stream some shows some time
Yakuzza Lethecus: yeah, i also stream those
genesis Zhangsun: streaming is great
Yakuzza Lethecus: i don´t owe a tv either by the way
Yakuzza Lethecus: those american tv shows are still a bad habit
Yakuzza Lethecus: but i justifiy it because i watch those in english :P
genesis Zhangsun: Oh I don't think television is all bad
genesis Zhangsun: I just know how tempting it can be when I own a television to stay in front of it for far too long
genesis Zhangsun: but there are some great shows out there I think worth watching
Yakuzza Lethecus: no medium is bad at all, but there is so much crap and always the temptation
Yakuzza Lethecus: like who the hell watches big brother ?
Yakuzza Lethecus: but somebody most do that since it´s still produced all around the world
Yakuzza Lethecus: or ther ,,talkshows"
Yakuzza Lethecus: thats for example stuff most of the people agree that it´s crap
Yakuzza Lethecus: it´s complicated right now, i try to swap over to podcasts and media with more persistence
genesis Zhangsun: I like streaming too because there are no commercials
genesis Zhangsun: commercials are the worst
genesis Zhangsun: they just fry your brain
Yakuzza Lethecus: they have to work otherwise the company´s wouldn´t pay for them
genesis Zhangsun: indeed and they are very agressive with them in the states
genesis Zhangsun: I think less so in Germany
genesis Zhangsun: seems like in Europe there are more regulations
genesis Zhangsun: especially with regard to commercials targeted at children
Yakuzza Lethecus: i don´t know
--BELL--
Yakuzza Lethecus: we have many public tv channels that are payed by nearly everyone
Yakuzza Lethecus: those tend to have nearly no commercials
Yakuzza Lethecus: and the quality is decend, but i don´t watch our free tv at all
Yakuzza Lethecus: www.ard.de
Yakuzza Lethecus: www.zdf.de
Yakuzza Lethecus: they have the news online and a selection of the shows is streamed
Yakuzza Lethecus: i always recommend those to people whom learning german :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: because just deutsche welle can be boring, and if you watch something that might interest you about history for example but ,,in german" or any language ur interested in that works better
genesis Zhangsun: yes that is true
Yakuzza Lethecus: for example i think my english just became better and i stayed in practice after school because i wanted to watch startrek episodes earlier and they were in english :P
genesis Zhangsun: :)
genesis Zhangsun: so you learned english in school and through television?
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey pema
genesis Zhangsun: Hi Pema
Pema Pera: Hi Gen and Yaku!
Yakuzza Lethecus: yeah, i learned it in school and i stayed in contact with it through tv show episodes
Yakuzza Lethecus: i started talking 2 years ago through a gaming habit
Yakuzza Lethecus: before that it was just horrible school english
Yakuzza Lethecus: by grammer is still not the best and i don´t even intentionally work to improve it right now
genesis Zhangsun: well it is quite good I would have to say
Yakuzza Lethecus: was all tv in the netherlands already in english when you´ve been young pema ?
genesis Zhangsun: especially for never having lived in an english speaking country
Pema Pera: it was, Yaku, and subtitled
Pema Pera: so that was a good way to get used to it, better than dubbing like in Germany
genesis Zhangsun: indeed some benefits of living in a smaller country
genesis Zhangsun: there is enough of a market in Germany to pay for the dubbing
Pema Pera: it was funny to watch German tv with New York city cops speaking fluid German . . . .
Yakuzza Lethecus: hehe :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: Pema, you speak german,english,dutch,japanese ?
Yakuzza Lethecus: is there even more ? :)
Pema Pera: those are the ones I am pretty fluent in :)
Pema Pera: my french is more rusty
Yakuzza Lethecus: but you learned it by doing it´s not that you read about chomsky, ferdinand de saussure... ?
Pema Pera: in high school (gymnasium, like in Germany) I learned Latin and Greek
Pema Pera: of course by doing -- actually by practicing enough to start thinking in the other language
Yakuzza Lethecus: i keep wandering how much understanding i might need about language
--BELL--
Yakuzza Lethecus: language and thinking
Yakuzza Lethecus: like the sapier whorf hypothesis
Pema Pera: well, by now we are getting more and more German-speaking avatars in Play as Being -- so we could start having sessions in German, by chance, when the only participants would be, say, Wol, Lia, Bertram, you, Bolonath, me -- am I forgetting someone?
Yakuzza Lethecus: not that i remember
Yakuzza Lethecus: i didn´t know bolo is german :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: and i love to stay in english :)
Pema Pera: Artemisia is Swiss German, but she doesn't come very often
genesis Zhangsun: [7:29] Yakuzza Lethecus: i keep wandering how much understanding i might need about language [7:30] Yakuzza Lethecus: language and thinking
genesis Zhangsun: Yaku could u say a bit more about that?
Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, i still try to elaborate more on that, there are concepts like the sapier whorf hypothesis that thought is shifted by language
Yakuzza Lethecus: the hard form was crap but it´s still mentioned often
Yakuzza Lethecus: because it was about the hopi indians and that they woulnd´t have ,,time" in their language
Yakuzza Lethecus: but they do :)
genesis Zhangsun: I didn't realize that sapir whorf has been discredited
Yakuzza Lethecus: there is still truth in it i believe
genesis Zhangsun: Pema any thoughts on sapir whorf?
Pema Pera: I don't know him
Yakuzza Lethecus: thats been 2 guys actually
Yakuzza Lethecus: edward sapier and benjamin whorf
Yakuzza Lethecus: sapir
Yakuzza Lethecus: sry
Pema Pera: (my connection is very slow, sorry; in the train between New York and Princeton)
genesis Zhangsun: ah okay
genesis Zhangsun: I am also very interested in language Yaku
genesis Zhangsun: as you know I have been reading Heidegger and I am fascinated with the idea that "language is the house of being"
genesis Zhangsun: sorry Being., big B
Yakuzza Lethecus: there was a short essay of heidegger i read a few month ago
Yakuzza Lethecus: dwelling
genesis Zhangsun: yes what was it about?
Yakuzza Lethecus: building dwelling thinking
Pema Pera: yes, Heidegger did have a sense of Being, clearly
Yakuzza Lethecus: but i don´t recall that much, i read it because jen dix suggested that
Yakuzza Lethecus: on thothica there are more people interested in existentialism
genesis Zhangsun: :)
genesis Zhangsun: I got the impression in "On the Way to Language" by Heidegger that he understood very well the notion of action without self
Pema Pera: Interestingly, both Heidegger and existentialism go back to Husserl
genesis Zhangsun: I didn't realize that existentialism as a movement began with Husserl Pema
Pema Pera: or at least were strongly inspired by it
Yakuzza Lethecus: i still don´t know where the difference is between phenomenalism and existentialism, i am still in a struggle to understand the patterns
Pema Pera: Sartre, for example, got interested in philosophy through Husserl
genesis Zhangsun: really!
Yakuzza Lethecus: a few people on thothica were reading this one
Yakuzza Lethecus: http://www.amazon.com/Four-Phenomeno.../dp/0415073545
Pema Pera: Sartre was impressed by Husserl "doing philosophy" not just talking about it
genesis Zhangsun: my understanding Yak
genesis Zhangsun: and I could be very wrong so Pema please feel free to jump in
Pema Pera: wrong about what Gen?
genesis Zhangsun: but it seems to me that Husserl's phenomenology starts with raw phenomena without the assumption of a self/subject that exists
Yakuzza Lethecus: it was facinating that husserl changed his mind so often
--BELL--
genesis Zhangsun: while existentialism assumes the subject/object dichotomy
Pema Pera: As for Sartre: see http://www.iep.utm.edu/sartre-ex/ -- there in chapter 2. Early works, the first lines is: Sartre’s early work is characterised by phenomenological analyses involving his own interpretation of Husserl’s method.
Pema Pera: Husserl didn't assume anything about self or no self, that's exactly the beauty of it
Pema Pera: he started focusing on phenomena, qua phenomena, not as signs of something else
Pema Pera: and while doing that, going deeper and deeper into it
Pema Pera: he discovered all kind of things that you normally hear in Buddhism or similar traditions
Pema Pera: he found it himself, as a kind of Leonardo Davinci, who dreamt up helicopters and bicycles by himself . . . .
Pema Pera: so in many ways I see phenomenology as complementary to Play as Being
Pema Pera: whereas PaB starts top-down, or at the end, phenomenology starts bottom up, with what is given
genesis Zhangsun: nice parallel with DaVinci, as from what I understand Davinci was also someone who did not see/or did not live in a time where knowing and scientific knowing were yet separate domains of knowledge
Pema Pera: and in fact, one of my favorite PaB explorations is the APAPB sentence: appreciate the presence of appearance as a presentation by Being -- that one mixes phenomenology and PaB, in some sense
Pema Pera: "appearances" here are "phenomena"
Yakuzza Lethecus is jealous about pema´s knowledge
Pema Pera: it took a while, Yaku, I was 40 or so when I first heard about Husserl :-)
Pema Pera: but when I discovered him, I realized that he formed an ideal stepping stone between western and Asian ways of thinking and what is more, ways of experimenting with thinking, ways of truly exploring reality
Yakuzza Lethecus: ah, in fact i have the habit to think like ,,poor me" he had an humanist education with latin and greek...
Yakuzza Lethecus: it´s kinda irrational
Pema Pera: so I spent a whole month doing nothing but reading Husserl, a few thousand pages (in dry German academic writing . . . .)
Yakuzza Lethecus: because i even think it´s right that we ,,just be" and we should just appreciate life
Yakuzza Lethecus: jealousy prevents myself from having a good conversation
Pema Pera: :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: but that though just came up to my mind, and i though i just make it a topic :)
Pema Pera: yes, the truth is simple, Yaku
Pema Pera: but sometimes we make a large detour to get there
Pema Pera: APA: appreciate the presence of appearance(s) -- have you ever tried that, as an exercise, Yaku?
Pema Pera: [7:53] Yakuzza Lethecus: because i even think it´s right that we ,,just be" and we should just appreciate life
Yakuzza Lethecus: isn´t APA what why try around here ?
Yakuzza Lethecus: what we try :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: lol
Pema Pera: yes, but it is interesting to do it yourself, for say ten minutes, alone, in a quite place, or while walking outside, and see what happens
Pema Pera: but yes, of course, it can be a lifetime practice -- here too for sure :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: yamaneko project :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: i am just googling it and i land on kira again :)
genesis Zhangsun: Yes I agree, doing APA is great but perhaps in other words, In times like the one you just expressed Yaku- perhaps try to relax the focus on what you have as opposed to don't have and then drop the having and see those things as what you ARE, see yourself as the source of those things. But most important work with relaxing the focus on what you don't have.
Pema Pera: ah, you read about the yamaneko project, Yaku?
Yakuzza Lethecus: no just googled it and landed on kira lab :)
Pema Pera: yes, Gen, keeping an exploration open is the greatest challenge!
Yakuzza Lethecus: http://lab.kira.org/experiments/APAPB.html
Pema Pera: there you go, haha, yes, blast from the past, several years ago
Pema Pera: well before PaB
Pema Pera: ah, my train is arriving at Princeton Junction, have to bail out
Pema Pera: great talking with you both!
Pema Pera: bfn
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye pema
--BELL--
Yakuzza Lethecus: i am also about to leave, cya around gen :)