2009.02.05 01:00 - Title goes here

The Guardian for this meeting was Fael Illyar. The comments are by Fael.

I was alone at the playgoda for a while and then Gaya dropped in.

Fael Illyar: Hello Gaya :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello :) It's quiet again
Fael Illyar: Yes, pretty quiet. That's always the case thursday 1am :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Thought I drop by since I'm around
Fael Illyar smiles.
Fael Illyar ended up tweaking her looks after seeing a new skin at Pulse that she really liked.
Fael Illyar: the day before yesterday.
Gaya Ethaniel: ah ok...
Gaya Ethaniel: I've noticed your wings are glowing in an interesting way
Fael Illyar: I gave up being fancy with the particles and just did them a simple way :P
Fael Illyar: the earlier particles were a bit ... not so nice looking.
Gaya Ethaniel: It's nice anyhow
Fael Illyar smiles 'Thank you.'
Fael Illyar: So, how are you thir morning?
Gaya Ethaniel: Good except being a bit tired, You?
Fael Illyar: The same, somehow ended up staying up late enough to only get 6 hours of sleep :)
Gaya Ethaniel: ah ok :)

Eliver drops in around here and we move to introducing PaB to him. I had to leave Gaya to do the introductions since I got a phonecall.

Fael Illyar: Hello Eliver :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Eliver
Fael Illyar: ah, phonecall
Gaya Ethaniel: ok
Gaya Ethaniel: I will give you a notecard about our group Eliver.
Eliver Rang: Thank you
Gaya Ethaniel: It's open and you are free to join in discussions. I have to inform you that your comments will be recorded for our blog, http://playasbeing.wik.is/ Is that ok?
Eliver Rang: Do you have your own separate land in SL?
Fael Illyar: Yes, this place is on Play as Being land.
Gaya Ethaniel: The umbrella organisation Kira Institute holds some lands
Fael Illyar: The group has a few sims worth of land clustered around this place.
Gaya Ethaniel: http://www.kira.org/
Eliver Rang: Do you specialize in any particular SL skill?
Fael Illyar: no, this is a discussion group.
Fael Illyar: you can ask individuals that of course :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Eliver, is it ok to record your name and what you say for our blog?
Eliver Rang: OKay with me. If you find I have anything interesting to say
Gaya Ethaniel: Thank you
Fael Illyar: We have meetings every day at 1,7,1,7 am and pm SL time.
Eliver Rang: How many are here on average?
Fael Illyar: There's a guardian assigned for each time to make sure there's someone present for at least 30 minutes.
Fael Illyar: average ... difficult to say :)
Eliver Rang: What do you find is the most frequent area of discussion?
Fael Illyar: but sometimes no-one, peak has been around 15 at once I think.
Fael Illyar: (no-one except the guardian)
Fael Illyar: Well, this group is for discussing things that come up. Questions or observations that people come up with doing this meditation-like excersize the group is named after.
Fael Illyar: sort of like a pause every 15 minutes for 9 seconds.
Eliver Rang: I just tried that but only my immediate interestss came to mind
Fael Illyar: Yes, the idea is to drop as much of what is normally on your mind as you can and see what is under that.
Eliver Rang: But don't you find it more beneficially for thoughts to emerge and evolve through conversation?

Straight into the nature of the explorations, Eliver is starting fast.

Fael Illyar: That's what these meetings are for :)
Fael Illyar: the excersize is for introspection.
Eliver Rang: Not quite the same thing
Fael Illyar: not quite but many find it quite complementary
Fael Illyar: it seems to help you see the things that are under your normal thoughts even when not doing it.
Fael Illyar: that is, between the pauses :)
Fael Illyar: I've sometimes described it as a 9-second pause from everything.
Eliver Rang: My interest in SL is the evidence of stygmergy. The name given to the process where ants self organize to create complex building structures
Eliver Rang: Stigmergy*
Fael Illyar: you want to see how humans do the same?
Eliver Rang: Yes. It is self evident here - as it is on the web
Eliver Rang: People respond to an environment by changing it
Fael Illyar: Yes, very much so :)

Then Gaya has to go.

Gaya Ethaniel: I'm afraid I must head back now
Gaya Ethaniel: Have a good day
Eliver Rang: This of course results in causing the responses to change
Fael Illyar: Sure, see you later Gaya :)
Eliver Rang: Bye
Fael Illyar: Yes, every change causes a chain of reactions that also do the same.
Eliver Rang: It creates positive feedback loops that can take the system anywhere
Fael Illyar: What I've found interesting is that many things you can observe in society as a whole, can also also be observed within an individual mind. Mostly, your own since that's the one you have the best view of.
Eliver Rang: Conversations can exhibit this tendancy
Eliver Rang: Have you anf formal education in matters relating to the mind and the brain?
Fael Illyar: no, only what I've observed in myself.
Fael Illyar: and read and found to match what I see happening in my own mind.
Fael Illyar: but still, observed.
Eliver Rang: My understand of what is happening in the brain comes from learning about complex systems
Fael Illyar: could you be a bit more descriptive?

Eliver is talking about something I'm not very familiar with so I ask for more information. He had implied mind is a complex system, as well as society so I tried to apply his explanation to what I've noted in those.

Fael Illyar: My own background is mostly computer science and math
Eliver Rang: A complex system always seeks stability
Fael Illyar: Ah, yes, that is a tendency that is very well visible.
Fael Illyar: when stability is lacking, you feel unwell.
Eliver Rang: If it is disturbed over a certain amount it will go chaotic and settle into a new steady state
Fael Illyar: Yes, that too I've observed.
Fael Illyar: although, not everything goes chaotic.
Eliver Rang: The brain can be thought of as many different inter-linked complex systems that can go into very many different states according to sensory imputs
Fael Illyar: you might end up acting very weirdly for a while though, but not for all things :)
Fael Illyar: Yes, that sounds like it matches. Although, drawing the lines between the inter-linked systems might be rather difficult if even possible.
Eliver Rang: You don't have to draw a line between them because they integrate into a complex whole
Fael Illyar: Yes, exactly :)
Eliver Rang: What this means in effect that for any different combination of sensory inputs there is a specific combination of steady state
Eliver Rang: This allows us to "read" the sensory imputs
Fael Illyar: Yes, sensory inputs that the whole isn't used to yet tend to make it go chaotic for longer periods.
Eliver Rang: Yes. And if the sensory imputs are very unusual they could send the brain into states that it has never been in before
Fael Illyar: Yes
Eliver Rang: Like when fresh information make you look at some situation differently
Fael Illyar: that situation I'd frame like "when you find out that your beliefs weren't quite correct"
Eliver Rang: Yes
Eliver Rang: Have you come across the concept of "Hilbert Space"?

Then we move to Hilbert space.

Fael Illyar: I have heard the name in one science fiction series but ... it wasn't quite explained what it is.
Eliver Rang: It is a space with infinite dimensions
Eliver Rang: Everything possible can be descibed in this space
Fael Illyar: Yes, it does sound like such a space.
Eliver Rang: Sometimes it is called "Phase space"
Fael Illyar: Ah, that too sounds like I've heard it
Eliver Rang: If you go into such a space - say where the dimensions describe a green frog...
Eliver Rang: you can then move around in that space to change its color or its size
Eliver Rang: You can also move around int the space to discover a newt, a person, a house, etc
Eliver Rang: The object is defined by its dimensions in the multiple dimension space
Eliver Rang: If you relate this to the human brain...
Eliver Rang: ...the human brain is just such a space...
Eliver Rang: and the dimensions are sensory inputs
Eliver Rang: Different combinations of sensory inputs correspond to particular places in the space, which in physical terms is a particular steady state of a group of neurons
Eliver Rang: In other words the brain is a form of Hilbert space
Eliver Rang: Does any of this make sense to you?
Fael Illyar: Yes, it was kind of flickering in my mind after you explained hilbert space that mind is that in a way.
Eliver Rang: The concept gives a great insight into the way the brain works
Fael Illyar prefers not to assume it's all in the brain.
Fael Illyar: so I talk of mind
Eliver Rang: It also helps to understand how complex systems self organize. Such as SL, the Web and even civilization
Fael Illyar: Yes, the same patterns, just different scale

Subject suddenly changes to more mundane topics. A few SL related things.

Eliver Rang: What kind of scripting do you do?
Fael Illyar: whatever I need :)
Eliver Rang: That is my main activity here in SL
Fael Illyar: but I've been trying making some artistic things too. Like my wings.
Eliver Rang: Yes. I've become involved in other things like SL architecture - which is how I cam to visit here today (I had a notecard and followed some of the leads)
Fael Illyar: although, the thing I've used the most time on in these wings is the script :)
Eliver Rang: I heard yesterday about some wings that were designed with 2,000 prims
Fael Illyar: thes have a just a few :)
Fael Illyar: mostly texture
Eliver Rang: It was in a discussion on wing building in one of the sculptie groups
Eliver Rang: I understand there can be quite complex scripting involve with some wing building
Fael Illyar: yes, there can be :)
Fael Illyar: especially if it's to help the building
Fael Illyar: that's probably much more complex than what I've done so far
Eliver Rang: At the moment I'm working on "Buildings in a Box" type applications
Fael Illyar smiles.
Fael Illyar: I do have a place of my own that I've been building.
Fael Illyar: with a friend
Fael Illyar: started around 2 weeks ago
Eliver Rang: The trouble with SL is that the more you learn the more you find there is to learn
Fael Illyar: Well, that's the thing with everything :)
Eliver Rang: True
Fael Illyar: the more you learn, the less you realize you know of what could be known :)
Eliver Rang: But in SL it is constantly happening as you try to complete a task
Eliver Rang: A project starts...
Fael Illyar: ah, yes, you realize you need to learn this, that, then that ... oh then that too.
Eliver Rang: ...then fresh information emerges which causes you to start again...
Eliver Rang: ...this happens continually and it becomes almost impossible to complete projects
Fael Illyar: at least if you go for perfectionism :)
Eliver Rang: Or increased complexity
Eliver Rang: I must go now to get on with my work
Fael Illyar: Ok, I hope to see you again some other meeting :)
Fael Illyar: See you later :)
Eliver Rang: See you again soon I hope
Eliver Rang: Bye for now
Fael Illyar: yes, bye for now :)

The Eliver has to leave and the meeting is over.