2009.02.06 13:00 - A Study in Balance and Techno-cloning

Solo's session, Solo's comments...

The first 20 minutes or so were spent in solitude and reading some recent chat log postings...then Fefonz joined me. We started off by talking about another group in SL.

    Solobill Laville: Hi, Fefonz :)
    Fefonz Quan: Hey Solo :)
    Fefonz Quan: i see you answered my question in IM
    Solobill Laville: yes!
    Solobill Laville: To your satisfaction?
    Fefonz Quan: so you say wed 6:30 pm slt?
    Solobill Laville: Yes, at the Tea Hut in Zen Retreat in Rieul, next sim over
    Solobill Laville: the first home of PaB sessions too
    Solobill Laville: I can invite you into the group if you'd like :)
    Fefonz Quan: do i need coordinates? (i don't really know how to travel here)
    Fefonz Quan: that'll be cool
    Fefonz Quan: nice. i may drop by then
    Solobill Laville: Great! I send out meeting reminders too, usually on Tuesdays...
    Fefonz Quan: good.
    Solobill Laville: I'm wondering if it may become two different meetings ultimately, one 
    more beginner/intermediate, and one more int/advanced
    Solobill Laville: but I hate those words
    Fefonz Quan: yes, i know what you mean
    Solobill Laville: Maybe we'll do like pre-school: "frogs", "raccoons", "cardinals" ;)
    Fefonz Quan: red robes monks, orange robe monks, etc.
    Solobill Laville: maybe that would work too :)

Sam joins us.  

    Solobill Laville: Hiya, Sam :)
    Fefonz Quan: (with animal you always stumble on who's eating who
    Solobill Laville: ah....good point
    Samuel Okelly: hello every1 :)
    Fefonz Quan: hi Sam,
    Fefonz Quan: we are in equal triangle now:)

Study in Balance #1

    Solobill Laville: It is interesting when (in SL) the camera view is not your eyes
    Solobill Laville: the balance seems to be more powerful...
    Solobill Laville: I always try to balance out the circle when I can :)
    Fefonz Quan: i counted pillows, Solo :)
    Solobill Laville: Ah....interesting
    Fefonz Quan: the pool is very elliptic to me
    Solobill Laville: must be your hard science background ;)
    Fefonz Quan: yeah, i assumed there ARE pillows there with equal sizes
    Solobill Laville: You could always measure them, I suppose :)
    Fefonz Quan: yeah, though they are just virtual presentations, you know ;)
    Solobill Laville: Yes, and most things are measurable, even if qualitatively, or virtual
    Fefonz Quan: not necessary, depends if the virtual world obeys linear and other rules of the pysical
    world
    Samuel Okelly: i have often wondered about what is actually "owned" here in SL regarding the
    non-physical nature of the things generated here
    Fefonz Quan: what do you think the nature of your bank account is samuel ;-)
    Solobill Laville: Linden has a statement regarding that, Sam, basically as "intellectual property"
    Solobill Laville: token economy?
    Solobill Laville: ;)
    Solobill Laville: I know my 401k lost REAL value...
    Fefonz Quan: more bits in some bank computers, as virtual as you can get
    Samuel Okelly: so i believe and so it led me to conclude that the ambiguity of the LL user contract
    is unethical (if not illegal)
    Fefonz Quan: (is this 401k a specific thing)
    Fefonz Quan: ?
    Solobill Laville: There is a broad yet specific legal code in the US regarding intellectual property
    rights
    Solobill Laville: of which I am NOT an expert ;)
    Fefonz Quan: i see.
    Solobill Laville: 401k is a personal retirement account, Fefonz
    Fefonz Quan: infact in rL i got confirmation that i received a patent on some former issue i was
    involved in
    Fefonz Quan: i see, Solo
    Solobill Laville: that is great, Fefonz!
    Samuel Okelly: though i am sure it is not illegal, i think we can only assume that when LLs speak
    of "ownership" it is done so misleadingly
    Fefonz Quan: yeah, not that it would earn me any food, but nice as it is
    Solobill Laville: :)
    Fefonz Quan: LLs?
    Solobill Laville: Sam, I think at first glance you are correct
    Solobill Laville: But I think it is more specific to the term "owner" of a SL item
    Fefonz Quan: Sam, why is the act that things here are virtual makes it illegal?
    Fefonz Quan: fact*
    Solobill Laville: SO, yes, "ownership" in this very specific context
    Samuel Okelly: no fef, i do NOT doubt that it is 100% legal (or LLs would have been challenged by
    now)...
    Solobill Laville: Right
    Fefonz Quan: ah, ok
    Samuel Okelly: however i DO believe that most ppl looking at the user contract her are led to
    believe that they own something tangible when they do not
    Fefonz Quan: do you own your avatar?
    Solobill Laville: Tangible in the SL platform only, and tangible in "intellectual rights" terms perhaps
    Samuel Okelly: i think the term "land owner" here is a good example where people are mislead
    Solobill Laville: Well, but the other issue is whether you have paid account or not I would think
    Fefonz Quan: i think we discussed here the case against a japanese woman killing her husband's
    avatar
    Solobill Laville: By deleting the account?
    Fefonz Quan: i think so
    Samuel Okelly: hi tam :)
    Solobill Laville: Hmmm...bit of a cover story stretch to call that an "av murder" methinks

Tarmel joins us.  

    Tarmel Udimo: hi everyone
    Solobill Laville: Heya, Tarmel :)
    Fefonz Quan: Hey Tarmel ;)
    Solobill Laville: Plus, it was probably well deserved... ;)
    Samuel Okelly: there was a similar headline in england not so long ago "HUSBAND HACKED TO
    DEATH"
    Solobill Laville: Virtually?
    Samuel Okelly: ...turns out that his wife hacked on to his computer and discovered an alleged
    infidelity via SL
    Tarmel Udimo: did anyone make it to the sacred art opening?
    Solobill Laville: ah
    Solobill Laville: Yes!!
    Tarmel Udimo: where is it?
    Solobill Laville: I had to run here on the hour though
    Fefonz Quan: no, though it should be nice
    Solobill Laville: I'll give a LM, the Hall of Appearance in Rieul
    Tarmel Udimo: thanks
    Solobill Laville: It is really great
    Fefonz Quan: cool, thanks
    Tarmel Udimo: yes of course I was still in bed
    Tarmel Udimo: hate the 24 hour time zone thingy ?
    Fefonz Quan: are you in japan tarmel?
    Tarmel Udimo: seems like all the best stuff happens while I'm snoozing
    Tarmel Udimo: australia
    Fefonz Quan: ah, i see
    Solobill Laville: hmmm....don't have an LM...I'll give you Zen Retreat, just walk past the pagoda
    and you'll be there
    Fefonz Quan: would love to travel there some day
    Solobill Laville: I already gave that one to you Fefonz
    Fefonz Quan: (australia, the pagoda too ;00
    Tarmel Udimo: ta
    Fefonz Quan: yes, i didn't know its the same place
    Tarmel Udimo: you're welcome anytime
    Tarmel Udimo: :-)
    Fefonz Quan: thanks Tarm ;)
    Fefonz Quan: when does they finish the teleport feature there?;-)
    Solobill Laville: The exhibition will be going on for some time I'm sure
    Fefonz Quan: teleport*'
    Tarmel Udimo: great!
    Fefonz Quan: cool
    Tarmel Udimo: yeah but openings are always fun :-)
    Solobill Laville: yes, quite a buzz, it was really cool
    Solobill Laville: and the work they did was really impressive
    Fefonz Quan feels he missed it :-(
    Solobill Laville: I only saw about 1/3 in an hour...
    Tarmel Udimo: well I must have a cup of something before the next session, sorry to interupt
    Solobill Laville: k
    Tarmel Udimo: byb
    Fefonz Quan: yight, Tarm :)
    Solobill Laville: There are also LMs to SL sites you can teleport to
    Fefonz Quan: yeah, i thought of Australia though
    Solobill Laville: yup

Study in Balance #2

The Crusty koan...

    Solobill Laville notices how Tarmel sustained circle balance... :)
    Fefonz Quan: are you familiar with the teleportation dilemma?
    Fefonz Quan: (just from your POV, Solo)
    Solobill Laville: Crusty's koan?
    Fefonz Quan: don’t know
    Solobill Laville: Is it the question what happens to you if your old "self" doesn't vanish when you've
    teleported somewhere else?
    Fefonz Quan: yep, that one
    Solobill Laville: (because you would never really know)
    Solobill Laville: nope, don't know it ;)
    Fefonz Quan: :)
    Fefonz Quan: the interesting question, just to spell it out, is whether you would enter such a 
    machine in the first place
    Solobill Laville: Is that because of the fear of destruction, regardless of recreation somewhere else
    an instant later, do you think?
    Fefonz Quan: exactly
    Fefonz Quan: the old self scenario is just meant to clarify that thing
    Solobill Laville: So, would YOU enter it, Fefonz?
    Fefonz Quan: in fact, that scenario some how leads to the fact that it will be a suicide
    Solobill Laville: really? even you are "teleported"?
    Fefonz Quan: (surely, if you grasped no-self, that doesn't matter ;))
    Solobill Laville: Yes, Eastern metaphysics is dangling just out there....
    Solobill Laville: but I wasn't going to it ;)
    Fefonz Quan: well, surely in the old self scenario, the nature assumption is that the machine left
    you untouched, but created a duplicate
    Fefonz Quan: natural*
    Solobill Laville: No suicide there, correct? Just the question of which one is you?
    Solobill Laville: (the argument then being probably the one you are conscious within)
    Fefonz Quan: not at all. if we agree that the old one is the old you, and the new one is a duplicate,
    Solobill Laville: ahhh
    Fefonz Quan: than in the scenario without old you, the new one is duplicate, and you have been
    terminated :)
    Fefonz Quan: then
    Solobill Laville: recreated
    Samuel Okelly: "a duplicate" surely supposes "an other"
    Solobill Laville: BUT, with a continuous consciousness of "me"??
    Fefonz Quan: nope, because if the machine is capable of duplication,
    Fefonz Quan: Sam, you are correct, but there are two guys in the output, isn't it correct to assume
    duplication then?
    Samuel Okelly: i agree
    Samuel Okelly: such a biological "replication" would not rule out nor dent difference
    Fefonz Quan: so, than the "regular" operation is duplicate+destroy(old),
    Samuel Okelly: deny
    Tarmel Udimo: sorry have to go folks - off to kira
    Samuel Okelly: tc tam
    Solobill Laville: Bye, Tarmel
    Solobill Laville: So much going on these days... :)
    Tarmel Udimo: that keeps happening I wonder if is storm's little joke?
    Tarmel Udimo: bye all
    Fefonz Quan: me too, soon. only if the machine can't do duplication, there is a chance that some
    coherent self
    Solobill Laville: what keeps happening tarmel?
    Fefonz Quan: might travel
    Solobill Laville: ah, *poof*
    Samuel Okelly: i would think such a machine could be more likened to an advanced form of cloning
    Solobill Laville: yes...my thought too
    Fefonz Quan: right.
    Fefonz Quan: but it might be advertised as teleportation, destroying the oldies with no one
    knowing :)
    Samuel Okelly: i need to go afk for a short while... tc every1 :)
    Fefonz Quan: Bye Sam
    Solobill Laville: Ok, we may be gone though Sam...
    Fefonz Quan: i'll head for kira too
    Solobill Laville: So, bye in preparation
    Solobill Laville: :)
    Samuel Okelly: cheerio for now :)
    Solobill Laville: Bye, Fefonz :)
    Fefonz Quan: bye Solo, see you :)