2009.02.06 19:00 - Minty chicken

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Wol Euler recovered this session from the autologging database and suggested a provisional title. Adelene was the guardian.

Adelene Dawner: how's things?
stevenaia Michinaga: could be better, sill ahve my cold
Adelene Dawner: :(
stevenaia Michinaga: nice wings
Adelene Dawner: thanks :)
stevenaia Michinaga: new avatar? any reason?
Adelene Dawner: wnated to be able to use poseballs, mostly.
stevenaia Michinaga: awww
Adelene Dawner: Might be playing around with more traditionally-social shapes for a while.
stevenaia Michinaga: you consider a winged cat more traditional?
Adelene Dawner: (traditionally social? socially traditional? something like that)
Adelene Dawner: compared to my quad lioness, yeah.
Adelene Dawner: 'more' being relative
stevenaia Michinaga: she was more pet-able
Adelene Dawner: *giggle*
stevenaia Michinaga: and you got to be nakid
stevenaia Michinaga: always a fan of that
Adelene Dawner snerrrrrks. "Are my motives *that* transparent?"
stevenaia Michinaga: hehe
stevenaia Michinaga: no, it's my always currptable mind
stevenaia Michinaga: can't do that with a pose ball in public
stevenaia Michinaga: ..smiles
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Adelene Dawner: can't do that with a humanoid av in public, poseball or no.
Adelene Dawner: at least not without Consequences.
stevenaia Michinaga: not during a discussion group anyway
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Adelene Dawner: I've been playing with social concepts recently though
Adelene Dawner: and since I don't deal with people RLwise much any more...
Adelene Dawner: gotta get my data somewhere. ^.^
stevenaia Michinaga: explain social concepts
Adelene Dawner: um
Adelene Dawner: like 'polite'
Adelene Dawner: or 'saving face'
Adelene Dawner: or the difference between an aquaintance and a friend.
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, i see
stevenaia Michinaga: how is that going?
stevenaia Michinaga: your explorations
Adelene Dawner: Pretty well. It's always been a slow slog, especially translating my findings back to words.
stevenaia Michinaga: findings=feelings?
Adelene Dawner: I pinned down 'polite' a few years ago and am *still* trying to get a good wording that explains all the aspects.
Adelene Dawner: findings = what these concepts actually are
Adelene Dawner: like
Adelene Dawner: a polite action is a socially-expected action that is intended to help the person you're acting toward function better in some way.
Adelene Dawner: That can include anything from turning on a light in a dark room to the dance of people avoiding telling each other 'no' in asian cultures.
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, Pema went throught that once once
Adelene Dawner: mmhmm
stevenaia Michinaga: that one
Adelene Dawner: relevant to me in several ways, that definition
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Myna
Myna Maven: Hello Stevenaia.
Adelene Dawner: what helps me function is pretty different from most people, so stuff isn't so obvious... a lot of times people trying to be polite will actually do more harm than good, and I really don't understand why some things are considered polite, since they don't help *me* in any way at all.
Adelene Dawner: *or* hinder me.
Adelene Dawner: just mysterious.
Adelene Dawner: hiya Three!
Adelene Dawner: ('n Myna)
Threedee Shepherd: hiya folks
stevenaia Michinaga: like a diferent culture
stevenaia Michinaga: hi Three
Myna Maven: Hello Adelene, hello Threedee.
Adelene Dawner: it can be a bit like that, yeah, Steve.
stevenaia Michinaga: interesting
stevenaia Michinaga: when taken as if it is another culture
Adelene Dawner: that's one of the easier useful ways of looking at it... not 100% accurate but works well anyway.
Adelene Dawner: culture tends to be a bit more convoluted in some ways
Adelene Dawner: and a bit more comprehensible to you in others, I assume, since all cultures are based on the same 'normal' skillset.
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, traditions developed over a very long time, like the open handed wave
stevenaia Michinaga: or shaking hands
Adelene Dawner: mmhmm
Adelene Dawner: Yes, Squee, exactly.
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
stevenaia Michinaga: and bowing
stevenaia Michinaga: politeness and respectulness
Threedee Shepherd: In Japan, after you use an ATM, a little person on the screen bows
Adelene Dawner: hehe
Adelene Dawner: cute
stevenaia Michinaga: brb, need water
Adelene Dawner: 'k
Threedee Shepherd: polite, tact, rudeness and probably others have to do with sending a message of implicit judgement about the other
Adelene Dawner: hm
Adelene Dawner: maybe
Adelene Dawner: (That *does* seem like quite a simple definition, for something so socially central)
Threedee Shepherd: I am suggesting that is how it is perceived in the mainstream culture
Threedee Shepherd: It is a component
Adelene Dawner: mmhmm
Adelene Dawner: more 'what it's used for' than 'what it is'
Threedee Shepherd: ok
Threedee Shepherd: Tact is careful consideration in dealing with others to avoid giving offense.
Threedee Shepherd: WiKi
Adelene Dawner: mm :\
Adelene Dawner: either that's a high-level abstraction, or there's more to it than that. Consideration of what?
Adelene Dawner re-reads
Adelene Dawner: yeah
Adelene Dawner: high level abstraction
Adelene Dawner: built on 'offense'
Adelene Dawner: which is hard.
Adelene Dawner: haven't done that one yet.
Threedee Shepherd: consideration in choich of words or actions
Adelene Dawner: (Myna, because I'm sure you're lost: I'm autistic. These concepts don't come naturally to me.)
Threedee Shepherd: If I disagree with you by implying that only a dumb asshole would hold your opinion on a matter, that is giving offence
Myna Maven: Adelene, OK. I'm not particularly lost. I was just sitting here, breathing in, breathing out.
Myna Maven: Enjoying reading.
Adelene Dawner: ok, Myna. :)
Adelene Dawner: um.
Adelene Dawner: hm
Adelene Dawner: Most people would be offended by it but I don't know why.
Adelene Dawner: I'd need to see more context to know how I'd react.
Threedee Shepherd: It is demeaning of their i9ntelligence and/or character
Adelene Dawner: ok
Adelene Dawner: got that
Adelene Dawner: there's a jump between that and 'offense' though, that I'm not making.
Threedee Shepherd: to demean is one form of giving offence
Adelene Dawner: yeeees...
Threedee Shepherd: it is definitional at that level
Adelene Dawner: to turn on a light for someone is one for m of being-polite, but it doesn't explain what that *is8
Adelene Dawner: hm
Adelene Dawner: I have an idea though
Adelene Dawner: comes back to that 'saving face' thing
Adelene Dawner: social standing.
Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm
Adelene Dawner: 'taking offense' is a kind of agressive response, in a way - defending social standing by attacking the person you feel threatened by
Adelene Dawner: which explains why I don't do it.
Threedee Shepherd: Let me try this. I know your LSL programming skills. Suppose YOUO are having a problem with a certain script and I gave some advice and then ended by saying, by the way, remember to put a ; at the end of each command line.
Adelene Dawner: hi Dak :)
Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm re taking offence
Dakini Rhode: hi :)
Adelene Dawner: hm
stevenaia Michinaga: hello dakini
Dakini Rhode: looks cozy :)
Adelene Dawner: that'd be a kind of odd thing for you to say given that it's so easy to find those errors with the compiler ;)
stevenaia Michinaga: ..smiles
Threedee Shepherd: hi dakini
Myna Maven: Hello Dakini.
Dakini Rhode: hi Myna
Threedee Shepherd: For me to say that would be like me saying you were too dumb to recite the alphabet
Adelene Dawner: I must be pretty dumb then, I forget to close my lines something approaching 5% of the time... the complier catches 'em, tho. ^.^
Myna Maven: :)
Threedee Shepherd: forget is different from "not even know you should"
Adelene Dawner: hm. me being literal. you said 'remember'.
Dakini Rhode: hehe my daughter just recognized me :)
Dakini Rhode: hi Nora :)
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Nora
Threedee Shepherd: How about you go to the market and buy canned peas, and I know you have them. We are discussing your dinner and I say "Why not have some peas, and by the way, remember to open the can first. ?
Dakini Rhode: hello Tarmel
Adelene Dawner: Hi Tarmel, Nora
Dakini Rhode: good reminder :)
Tarmel Udimo: hi everyone
Myna Maven: Hi Tarmel.
Threedee Shepherd: Hi
stevenaia Michinaga: Hi tamel
Adelene Dawner nods. "That, I'd be annoyed at."
stevenaia Michinaga: Yarmel, sorry
Threedee Shepherd: Why?
stevenaia Michinaga: Tarmel...oops
Tarmel Udimo: :-)
Adelene Dawner: Because I expect that *you* know me better than that by now, and I find it annoying to be proven wrong about that kind of thing.
Adelene Dawner: Went throught *that* crap with Tommy. :P
stevenaia Michinaga: the entire concept of the pretence of taking offence as a overt reation to something uninteneded is equally strange to me
Threedee Shepherd: Is ANY case of being proven wrong, annoying?
Dakini Rhode: it does seem a bit unnecessary, steve
stevenaia Michinaga: yet it is part of the social and political norm
Adelene Dawner: Nope... but with people I consider friends or above, I tend to be careful, and expect my carefulness to work.
Adelene Dawner: But with something where I'm not sure? Doesn't bother me.
Adelene Dawner reads back and nods at Steve.
Threedee Shepherd: A common expression of annoyance is something like: What do you think I am, an idiot?
Adelene Dawner nods at Three.
stevenaia Michinaga: a defensive posture of an idiot
stevenaia Michinaga: :0
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Dakini Rhode: does it seem that you have more expectations of the people you consider friends than of others?
Adelene Dawner: um
Adelene Dawner: in a sense.
Dakini Rhode: why would that be?
Adelene Dawner: It'd be more accurate to say that I have more expectations of myself when it comes to people I consider friends, actually.
stevenaia Michinaga: with friends it is easiter to day, I will never inttionally offend you purposfully, less chance of misunderstandigns
stevenaia Michinaga: *to say
Adelene Dawner: But I do also have more expectations of my friends than others... because who I consider a friend is based on who I can reasonably have those expectations *of*, in part.
Adelene Dawner nods at Steve.
Dakini Rhode: what if we assumed that nobody would intentionally offend us purposefully, and that nobody is other than a friend, how would that change our world?
Adelene Dawner: mm.
Adelene Dawner: I think I need to finish writing my blog post where I talk about who I consider what and why, first.
stevenaia Michinaga: it would make it very dificult to be offended
Tarmel Udimo: nice thought
Threedee Shepherd: we would be suckers for sociopaths, but I don't think that is where you are going with that idea ^.^
Dakini Rhode: would we?
Adelene Dawner: And, some peopele *do* intentionally do offensive things.
Adelene Dawner: rare
Adelene Dawner: but happens.
Dakini Rhode: oh, then if we assumed they didnt we would be wrong
Myna Maven: I understand where youre going with that idea....but...hm....I've been around a long time and it runs counter my experience.
stevenaia Michinaga: but when their actions don;t get the desired results, comedy insues
Threedee Shepherd: yes, often as a demonstration of the "power" implicit in what they consider to ber their high level of social standing.
Myna Maven: Yess, Three.
Adelene Dawner nods emphatically at Three.
Dakini Rhode: comedy is not so bad :)
Myna Maven: I've observed taht quite often.
stevenaia Michinaga: turns the offender into the idiots they truly are
stevenaia Michinaga: (comedy)
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Myna Maven: Comedy may indeed ensue, but money and privilege can make it not seem so comedic very shortly.
Myna Maven: In a business envrionment, say, with unequal social standing.
Adelene Dawner hmmmms at Squee.
Dakini Rhode: funny to see the animal mouths moving :)
Dakini Rhode looks around for squee
Threedee Shepherd: So the stern professor calls time and says all test papers must be turned immediately. Everyone in the large class complies, except one kid, who walks up late and ttries to hand in the paper. The professor, says, you can not do that, I have rules and am well respected as a professor, Do you know who I am? he concludes. The student looks at him and says, "Do you know who *I* am? Of course not says the professor. Good, says the student as he picks up half the stack of exams, drops his in the middle of the pile and replaces them, and walks out.
Adelene Dawner: good one, Three.
stevenaia Michinaga: lol
stevenaia Michinaga: give that kid an A for effort
Myna Maven: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: unless it happened to you, Three
stevenaia Michinaga: or... were you that kid :)
Threedee Shepherd: No, I didn't give exams
Threedee Shepherd: neither, it is an urban legend kind of joke
Threedee Shepherd: In Japan, it is considered extremely impolite if you are listening to a lecture to even ask a question of someone "senior" to you. that leads to very poorly trained Ph.D. scientists
Myna Maven: I'd read that.
Threedee Shepherd: I unfortunately know of it because I had one such person as a Post-doc researcher in my lab.
Dakini Rhode: in working with people from India also, we have had to encourage questioning and criticism
Threedee Shepherd: hi Solo
Tarmel Udimo: hi solo
Dakini Rhode: hiya mr. laville
stevenaia Michinaga: hello solo
Solobill Laville: (Hi, 3D, Ade, Steve, Tarmel, Myna, and Ms Rhode)
Tarmel Udimo: a little early? for you
Myna Maven: Earlier, I was actually thinking in terms of the service industry. When one is in a position of providing service people expressing power-over in aggressive ways, for no reason, is common.
Threedee Shepherd: To go back to explaining concepts, such as offense. I ask how do you know what ANY word means except by example?
Myna Maven: "in a position of providing service, people..." etc.
Adelene Dawner: By taking the examples and building things out of them.
Dakini Rhode: i've been impressed by how skillfully some people in the service field handle those situations, Myna
Adelene Dawner: Like, I don't need a direct example to understand 'offended' (I was pulling your tail pretty hard there), because I can build the concept out of other concepts that I have experienced, or have built in a similar way.
Myna Maven: Dakini, yes, they must learn to be quick on their feet in defusing situations.
Threedee Shepherd: I am suggesting that I think the "Defining" what "to give offense means" can only be done by building up examples.
Adelene Dawner: hm
Adelene Dawner: That theory says I'd never understand it, though, because none of the examples I've seen have made sense to me as such.
Adelene Dawner: I don't know what to look at *in* those examples.
Adelene Dawner: so using words to point out the relevant bits is an important part too.
Threedee Shepherd: It may not make sense to you than an antiquark is a combination of an anti quack and a non-duck, but you can accept it by seeing it,
Adelene Dawner: if I knew what an anti-quack and a non-duck were, and what kind of combination, I might not *have* to see it, though, is my point.
Solobill Laville: This is interesting, Three, are you suggesting that learning is really only "experiential"??
Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm, and I understand what you mean be having the relevant words pointed to
Solobill Laville: (as opposed to intellectual, or a combo of the two)
Adelene Dawner: I have a good concrete example here :)
Threedee Shepherd: at its base, perhaps I am saying that learning starts out as experiential.
Adelene Dawner: I bought bacon salt today. It's probably pretty safe to assume tht most if not all of you have never tasted bacon salt, but does anyone not already have a pretty good idea what I'm talking about?
Dakini Rhode raises her hand
Myna Maven: You're right, I've not tasted bacon salt. :) It gives the flavor of bacon? I don't know!
Adelene Dawner: Yes, it's bacon-flavored salt. And yummy. ^.^
Dakini Rhode: ah
Threedee Shepherd: I can guess, but might be wrong. I know that cinnamon sugar is a mixture of the two, but am not sure exactly what bacon powder would be
Adelene Dawner: And now Dakini *still* hasn't experienced bacon salt, but I bet that 'ah' was of understanding.
Dakini Rhode: understanding "what" bacon salt is, but not how it tastes really
Adelene Dawner: ballpark, though.
Dakini Rhode: or necessarily agreeing it's yummy
Myna Maven: I can imagine the taste. I've not experienced it but can imagine the saltiness and flavor of bacon.
Adelene Dawner nods at Myna.
Solobill Laville: So that is intellectual learning, by my lexicon :)
Dakini Rhode is a vegetarian
Adelene Dawner: I should send you some, Dakini. It is in fact a vegetarian product. Kosher, too.
Solobill Laville: Based on experince though, to Three's point :)
Adelene Dawner nods at Solo.
Myna Maven: Right. What I expect is based on prior experience.
Dakini Rhode: and tastes like bacon - perfect :)
Adelene Dawner: http://www.baconsalt.com/
Solobill Laville: (Wow - kosher vegetarian bacon salt...what a world we live in!)
Dakini Rhode: lol
Adelene Dawner: I know, for real!
Solobill Laville: And a URL!!
Threedee Shepherd: It is intellectual combining of prior experienced things. Without that if I told you I ate a pasted rhuka, you would have little idea of what that might be.
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Adelene Dawner: Agreed, Three.
Adelene Dawner: But if you told me it tasted like minty chicken, I'd have a good idea without ever havign to try it at all.
Myna Maven: Pasted rhuka. I'm sorry, you'll have to enlighten me.
Myna Maven: OK, minty chicken? What kind of mint?
Threedee Shepherd: Well, at the store the other day someone who had not idea what it was asked me what passionfruit tasted like. Well, it tastes like passionfruit.
Myna Maven: If someone had never tasted an apple or anything similar, and I was too describe it, it would be difficult.
Adelene Dawner: (google says rhuka is fictional. I used the example of 'minty chichen' at random but with an ulterior motive.)
Dakini Rhode: certainly in order for learning to occur, the terms must be defined - since pasted rhuka is an unfamiliar term, you would need to define it for learning to occur
Myna Maven: Oh, OK.
Adelene Dawner nods at Dakini
Dakini Rhode: otherwise all i would learn is you ate it, and i would probably forget what it is you ate in short order
Adelene Dawner: My point is, yes, Three's right in a sense - all knowledge is based on experience. But it doesn't have to be *directly* based on experience.
Solobill Laville: Well, the scaffolding of abstract concepts, such as Quantum Mechanics, is not *truly* experiential
Adelene Dawner nods at Solo.
Threedee Shepherd: true, but the chain of inference gets back to experience, eventually. So it is possible that if you do not know in any way what a social emotion is, I may not be able to tell/teach you. the common example given is the total impossibility of explaining color to a person blind from birth.
Adelene Dawner: yep
Threedee Shepherd: Solo--the photoelectric effect and the two-slit experiments are both things I have observed. QM is a way to explain them
Solobill Laville: You have observed through tools and measurement devices
Solobill Laville: But, I get your point :)
Adelene Dawner: The thing with social stuff, though...
Adelene Dawner: most of it *is* comprehensible, on at least some level, if I look hard enough. It's not that I don't experience the underlying concepts. It's that I don't build complicated structures out of them like most people do.
Threedee Shepherd: So, a good question is why "we" other folks do build such structures?
Adelene Dawner: Yes, that's a very good question.
Dakini Rhode: allow me to excuse myself, i'm needed elsewhere :)
Solobill Laville: Ade, is it mathematical in a way? If A then B?
Myna Maven: Bye Dakini.
Dakini Rhode: ty for the chat :)
Threedee Shepherd: byr dakini
Solobill Laville: NIght, D :)
Adelene Dawner: Solo.... kind of. Can be.
Adelene Dawner: Depends on the thing.
Solobill Laville: ok :)
Adelene Dawner: let me find the example I used earlier.
Adelene Dawner: [19:02] Adelene Dawner: a polite action is a socially-expected action that is intended to help the person you're acting toward function better in some way. [19:02] Adelene Dawner: That can include anything from turning on a light in a dark room to the dance of people avoiding telling each other 'no' in asian cultures.
Adelene Dawner giggles at Squee.
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Lian
Solobill Laville: ok, right, very subtle and often very complicated at the same time
Lian Aichi: Hello everybody ..
Adelene Dawner nods at Solo.
Myna Maven: Hello Lian.
Solobill Laville: Hi, Lian :)
Adelene Dawner: Lian, have you been here before?
Lian Aichi: not interrupting anything ?
Lian Aichi: no not been here before
Adelene Dawner: nope :)
Adelene Dawner: We meet four times a day to talk about reality and 'stuff'... we also record our chats. We'd be glad to have you join us, but if so, will you mind being recorded?
Lian Aichi: no.. I don't mind being recorded..
Adelene Dawner: ok :)
Adelene Dawner: feel free to grab a pillow.
Solobill Laville quietly wishes everyone a good night - or good day :)
Adelene Dawner: cya, Solo
Myna Maven: Bye Solo.
Threedee Shepherd: bye
Lian Aichi: bye solo
Solobill Laville: Bye
Lian Aichi: so what you are discusing ?
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, time to go for me two, thanks for the foot warmer
Adelene Dawner: aw, ok Steve.
Adelene Dawner: cya around
Myna Maven: Bye Steve.
Threedee Shepherd: night, Steve
stevenaia Michinaga: bye
Adelene Dawner: Looks like it's breaking up, but we were talking about learning, and social conventions.
Lian Aichi: ok.. then I will be back some other time..
Adelene Dawner: ok :)
Myna Maven: Bye Lian.
Lian Aichi: bye
Adelene Dawner: We're here at 1 and 7 am and pm, SL time
Lian Aichi: ok
Myna Maven: Well, I need to be going, too. Stuff to get too.
Adelene Dawner: cya, Myna.
Threedee Shepherd: g'niter
Myna Maven: I enjoyed it. Thank you.
Adelene Dawner: ^.^ you're entirely welcome
Adelene Dawner: gee
Adelene Dawner: no wonder I like this bacon salt
Adelene Dawner: MSG is like the 6th ingredient. ^.^
Threedee Shepherd: NTs seem to reflexively make the following syllogism: He sais I was an XYZ. He doesn't like me. there must be something wrong with me.. Not defending, just observing (ndjo, for short)
Adelene Dawner: mmhmm
Adelene Dawner: I've noticed that.
Adelene Dawner: *amazingly* fragile egos.
Threedee Shepherd: indeed!!
Adelene Dawner puts 'ego' on her list of words.
Adelene Dawner: *yawn*
Adelene Dawner: today was ok
Adelene Dawner: oh
Adelene Dawner: hm
Adelene Dawner: are *you* awake?
Threedee Shepherd: don't do that, iI got up much to early to hear yawns

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2009.02.06 19:00 - Minty chicken

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