2009.02.11 19:00 - Kinds of Trust

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    The Guardian for this meeting was stevenaia Michinaga . The comments are by stevenaia Michinaga .

      I arrived and the evening began with greetings and comments for the large part of the hours, eventually there were many people at the pavilion. 

    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Buddha
    buddha Nirvana: HI stevenaia :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello
    stevenaia Michinaga: how was your day?
    stevenaia Michinaga: have you tried any 9 second meditations?
    buddha Nirvana: Good thanks
    buddha Nirvana: Yes, ive been following the guidelines everytime ive been
    stevenaia Michinaga: for me it was most interesting when I started but as with all things I only do it now and then
    stevenaia Michinaga: Hello good friend Susi
    stevenaia Michinaga: Buddha,can you tell us about it
    Susi Alcott: hello good friends steve and buddha
    stevenaia Michinaga: waves to Corvi
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi all
    Susi Alcott: hi Cor
    Susi Alcott: hmm
    Corvuscorva Nightfire grins at Susi, Hi.
    Susi Alcott: you didn't want to get wet this time steve ?
    stevenaia Michinaga: I find the water distracts from closeness
    stevenaia Michinaga: if only slightly
    buddha Nirvana: HI susi, corvu :)
    buddha Nirvana: Sorry stevenia, tell you about what?
    Susi Alcott: ah
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi, Three, Ade.
    stevenaia Michinaga: your experience with the 9 second meditations
    Corvuscorva Nightfire pulls Ade tight to her side.
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Ade and three
    Susi Alcott: hi 3d and Ade
    buddha Nirvana: I just practice vipassana for 9 seconds
    stevenaia Michinaga: I do not know what that is
    buddha Nirvana: Hi adelene :)
    buddha Nirvana: Ok.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi Adams.
    Adelene Dawner: hi all
    buddha Nirvana: Its insight meditation, working with the body
    buddha Nirvana: Observation of bodily sensation
    Threedee Shepherd: hi folks
    stevenaia Michinaga: Hello Adams
    buddha Nirvana: remaining detached nd establishing equanimity, if practoiced correctly
    buddha Nirvana: Some people describe it as surgery of the mind
    Adams Rubble: Hello Everyone :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: Adams, you make us all feel underdressed
    buddha Nirvana: Hi adams
    Susi Alcott: hi Adams
    Threedee Shepherd: victorie fire charity
    stevenaia Michinaga: can you explain that Three?
    Threedee Shepherd: oops. I meant that for elsewhere, but it is relevant. There are charities set up to help the victims of the brushfires in Australis
    stevenaia Michinaga: awww, yes
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi Myna
    Susi Alcott: hi Myna
    Myna Maven: Hi everyone.
    Adams Rubble: Hello Myna :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Myna
    Threedee Shepherd: I just got this IM from a group: [19:03] Iota Ultsch: Whenever the rest of the world is in trouble, the Australian Government and people are FIRST to reach into their pockets and help other people in trauma. Now, we are faced with a trauma. As you are probably aware there have been devastating bushfires in Victoria, only 1 hours flight from Sydney. Around 180 people are dead and the toll keeps rising. I have a kiosk in my shop and have verified the charity is bonafide this morning. Please come and give generously. Love iota xxx [19:04] Iota Ultsch: http://slurl.com/secondlife/Slustleria/25/156/28 [19:04] Iota Ultsch: please DO NOT SHOP [19:04] Iota Ultsch: just donate
    stevenaia Michinaga: that will be good to have in the log, thank you three
    Threedee Shepherd: I am checking Google to find other charity places that may be more easily certified.
    Threedee Shepherd: Here is the Australian Red Cross site for such donations: https://www.redcross.org.au/Donations/onlineDonations.asp
    Adams Rubble: Thank you Threedee
    Threedee Shepherd: I lived in australia 1969-71
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: you did?
    Threedee Shepherd: Yes, I was in Canberra on a Post-doctoral Fellowship at the Australian National Univ. in Canberrra. My wife and then 2-year old daughrter were with me.
    Myna Maven: We have friends who live in Melbourne.
    Myna Maven: Really fine blues guitarist.
    stevenaia Michinaga: tonight's session reminds me of my Tai Chi classes I recently began taking... slow flowing

    The silence with so many pople for so long resulted in a questiin from Threedee Shepherd...


    Threedee Shepherd: This is the hour I usually come to PaB. Most sessions lately have been "slow flowing". Are we getting burned out?
    Myna Maven: :) I took Tai Chi a number of years ago. Enjoyed it a good deal.
    Adams Rubble: nah
    stevenaia Michinaga: not sure burned out is what I was thinking, perhaps more deliberate
    Adams Rubble glad she is wearing wash 'n wear tonight
    Threedee Shepherd: well, it seems like all the "spontaneous" topics have been well explored over the time since I started coming. I do enjoy the people, no matter what :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: burned out usually results un emptyness, and no shows, not contomplativeness
    Threedee Shepherd: true
    stevenaia Michinaga: wonders if that's a word
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Threedee Shepherd: perhaps, when spelled "correctly" ;>
    Adams Rubble: contamplation
    stevenaia Michinaga: laughs, yes, perahps then
    Adams Rubble: There are fewer dramatic things happening to me now
    Threedee Shepherd: I find for me that the 9-sec mood has spilled into my daily life most of the time.
    Adams Rubble: I must go. Good to see you all. bye :)
    Myna Maven: G'bye Adams.
    stevenaia Michinaga: bye Adams, always nice to see you
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: G'night, Adams.
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    stevenaia Michinaga: some meditation sessions are much quieter then we are Three
    Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: are we meditating?
    stevenaia Michinaga: meditation of laughter
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods to that..ok..I'll buy that, Steve.

    Corvuscorva Nightfire asks Susi Alcott to explain 'speaking with silence'... and the conversation refocuses on "TRUST" and LOVE  


    This all begins about 45 minutes into the session and continues until 8:30 PM


    Susi Alcott: thinking Cor do remember about the 'speaking with silence' we talked back then...
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    stevenaia Michinaga: please explain, we seem to be doing much of that tonight
    Susi Alcott: would you Cor ?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: oh, Susi..I can't explain anything today.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I can hardly string words together to make sense.
    Susi Alcott: well; Cor once spoke about trust that to whom one can speak...there was some 'chat' about that
    Susi Alcott: I asked her to notice that one trust is to be in silence with somebody
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    buddha Nirvana: nite all :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: night, Buddha
    Myna Maven: Bye buddha.
    Susi Alcott: well; I didn't use those exact words ...but that was the issue
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: me nods. it was..and is an important part of trust.
    stevenaia Michinaga: What are some parts of trust?
    Threedee Shepherd: taking actions that would otherwise be considered by myself as risky, is a general answer
    Threedee Shepherd: Talking about things that otherwise might be embarrasing
    stevenaia Michinaga: is that thust in yourself or in another?>
    stevenaia Michinaga: trust
    Threedee Shepherd: trust in how the other will receive it
    Susi Alcott: when one has not yet learned to trust to oneself , one feels need to trust to an other person
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods..Trust isn't in either person maybe? but in between them?
    stevenaia Michinaga: but isn;t it trust in yourself and it really not mattering how it is received, trust in their openness?
    Threedee Shepherd: ooh, interesting to ponder ^.^
    Susi Alcott: in fact that is trust to yourself, but it's 'long path' to learn that
    Susi Alcott: cuz of learned wrong thoughts of human mind
    Threedee Shepherd: I think perhaps different words are needed for "trust in yourself" "trust in another" and even "mutual trust"
    Susi Alcott: and nowbody can get rid of one's own thoughts by oneself
    Susi Alcott: as surely own thoughts have the power of oneself; so ; it's needed to get outside help
    Susi Alcott: I donno better way that good friend
    Susi Alcott: but sure there are many ways
    Susi Alcott: hm..feel need to ---maybe repeat---say that there's also much such wrong thoughts that have never been wrong ones
    Susi Alcott: but cuz of changes they have turned to be 'old'...wrong ones 'today'
    Threedee Shepherd: Susi, is there a basic difference between "wrong thoughts" and "wrong actions" that result from thoughts?
    Susi Alcott: well; one may have wrong thoughts but still behave; 'rule over' them
    Susi Alcott: then they do not effect so much to other people than the action does
    Susi Alcott: so yes; there is the huge difference
    Susi Alcott: for example somebody can be very agnry but hold the anger
    Susi Alcott: not hurting physically to one he/she is angry to
    stevenaia Michinaga: I wonder how trust changes, for most it begins and nothing, then over time relationshps result in trust, it was always there, jdut not recognized
    Susi Alcott: rises now these words
    Susi Alcott: trust is also knowledge so it's also information
    stevenaia Michinaga: just a thought
    Threedee Shepherd: I think what could be present "at first" is a disposition to trust, as well as reasonable wariness until there is more information.
    Susi Alcott: and there's the saying that information is received only by accedent
    Susi Alcott: take that trust is also like love
    stevenaia Michinaga: so trust is an accedent?
    stevenaia Michinaga: ..smile
    Susi Alcott: more than millions of people are afraid ot love
    Threedee Shepherd: In fact, I think I have learned to be extra skeptical with people I strongly trust when I first encounter them. There are some dangerous personality types out there who are good at evoking that
    Susi Alcott: meaning that nowbody can tell how trust or love or information could be delivered always 'just like that'
    Susi Alcott: I once wrote this;
    Susi Alcott: when the message is brought by the person who gives much good feelings and 'pic' of trusty and loveable person
    Threedee Shepherd: The little child CANNOT survive on its own. So, we all learn to be afraid of rejection, as soon as we realize what the concept of rejection is. That leads to all sorts of fears regarding intimacy that we may not outgrow
    Susi Alcott: who can have any doubts to the message ?
    Susi Alcott: the person who knows , that the true message given with honesty let's the genuin joy/happyness/freedom
    Susi Alcott: to rise from own heart too
    Susi Alcott: who has not learned that, may step into the trap...very bad trap
    Threedee Shepherd: Susi, two kinds of people (at least) can appear to be trustworthy, those who really are and Sociopaths who just manipulate.
    Susi Alcott: yes
    Susi Alcott: so; the feeling either rises form one's chest or not; that's the sign of each one's own spirit if the other person is genuinly to trust or not
    Susi Alcott: sure; exeptions are if one listenes to one's fears, not the genuin helper
    Susi Alcott: and therefore dont even receive the message
    stevenaia Michinaga: the motive of the Sociopath eventually will show throught the appearent trust
    Threedee Shepherd: eventually can occur too long after I have accepted the "message" Susi is talking about.
    stevenaia Michinaga: true
    Susi Alcott: and even if not; we can always ask in our mind, that what might be the motive, if we cannot feel clearly
    stevenaia Michinaga: but it is an eventuality
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: but how much damage can that person do before eventually?
    Susi Alcott: so; if we do understand the other's motive, we understand 'all'
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: it's important to look at not only my feeling of trust..and the other's motive..but the larger picture, too.
    Susi Alcott: that depends how much you do for the fauls missions or requests
    Susi Alcott: well; I'de say that our feelings are always the guide, but when we feel bad, would be good to ask from ourselves that what am I afraid now...
    Threedee Shepherd: I WANT to believe everyone, and start that way. Still, trust builds by degrees, it's not all or none.
    Susi Alcott: and finding the own fear we get rid of it ...or not; when the fear is not the fear, but the true reason
    Susi Alcott: well...I dont want to believe; I wanna know/understand
    Susi Alcott: but I am me
    Susi Alcott: but what many people do is that they judge 'the new person' with some bad experience for somebody nearly likd
    Susi Alcott: like
    Susi Alcott: and that is not good thing to do
    Threedee Shepherd: Susi, this may sound a bit off topic, but I hope not....
    Susi Alcott: well; judging effects if the trust takes place or not
    Threedee Shepherd: I have two rules of behavior (that apply in all kinds of situations). (1) When in doubt, don't.
    Threedee Shepherd: (2) S/he who hesitates is lost.
    Susi Alcott: understand
    Threedee Shepherd: The trick is knowing which to apply when, and I do not see a way around that.
    Susi Alcott: I usually also trust easily, because I've 'smelled' lie very easy since my childhood
    Susi Alcott: so that's why I said that I wanna know
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods..so you know when there is truth.
    Susi Alcott: but in case I need to chooce; I prefere trust
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: but..what if one doesn't have that?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: that ability to smell a lie?
    Susi Alcott: no matter if I get disappointment; that's miner 'lost' that if I had not given trust to somebody trusty
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: then..trusting one's wish to trust...might not be the best idea.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: there's worse than disappointment to be had..i think.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: i mean the consequences of trusting are not simply disappointment.
    Susi Alcott: well,,,many times I have trusted even such person who's lied to me cuz I've seen his/her lie and understood the reasons for her/him to feel need to lie
    stevenaia Michinaga: smell a lie is such a good description, what do you sence truth with?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods. yes..that makes sense to me.
    Threedee Shepherd: It DOES depend on whether the risk is disappointment and/or "losing face", versus the possibility of tangible hurt or loss.
    Myna Maven: I think it's important to remember that anyone, no matter how knowledgable, will at some point in their life be in a position of having trusted the wrong individual. It simply happens.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods to Myna.
    Threedee Shepherd: yup, Myna
    Myna Maven: There has to be, I think, a certain acceptance of this.
    Susi Alcott: truth feels always good; releafing ; even it would be sad thing to get to know
    Threedee Shepherd: I agree, that unless I am willing to take some risks of "losses" I would be paralyzed in the world of other people.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Susi Alcott: agree 130 %
    Myna Maven: Yes, Three.
    Susi Alcott: lie gives the feeling that 'something is wrong here now'
    Threedee Shepherd: And, we often overgeneralize from extreme cases that happen to us, into a better safe than sorry mode. That is a sad fact of life (and survival).
    Susi Alcott: but sometimes when somebody gives a 'pure' lie I'm even pleased
    Susi Alcott: because it's easy to turn upside down and see the truth there is
    Susi Alcott: such people who makes a mess telling something true but 'colourfull'
    Threedee Shepherd: Oh, there are many lies, but only one truth
    Susi Alcott: that's the most difficult to find out that what's the truth there is
    Susi Alcott: but in one has time to examine that mess enought; the best question ---imo---is to ask in one's mind that what is the truth within this here
    Susi Alcott: and the particle of the truth starts to shine
    Susi Alcott: then one can let 'the rest' to be
    Susi Alcott: or try to understand the reasons for the lie
    Threedee Shepherd: I think that a part of "early" trust is how much the other person mirror and resonates my inner being. There is a book for young adults with the title "I Love you When You Are More Like Me"
    Myna Maven: Ha. :)
    Susi Alcott: people feel so many kind of reasons to lie; there also are reasons many times to lie; specially if somebody's privacy is in a question
    Susi Alcott: ah
    Susi Alcott: nice to hear that you love yourself :)
    Susi Alcott: meaning that genuinly
    Threedee Shepherd smiles
    Susi Alcott: (felt few times strong love for myself; most wonderfull experiencies in my life)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire scritches Three's head.
    Threedee Shepherd: Hmm, I am not sure HOW it is that I experience love for myself.
    Susi Alcott: sure all the people do love oneself, but to feel that also stronly is not very usual
    Susi Alcott: maybe you dont, but you in a way told about your love to yourself 'between the lines' speaking to trust to the person who is like you
    Threedee Shepherd: When I am functioning "very well" being me and usually doing some particular thing, I get a deep feeling of love that spreads outwards to others, more than inward.
    Threedee Shepherd: Yes, Susi, that is a good observation.
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, very nice description
    Susi Alcott: and the beauty you see in others which makes your love to rise is also in yourself :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: it can only spread outward if it already exists inside
    Susi Alcott: >steve _/!\_
    Susi Alcott: needs again to keep the hands like that for a while in RL
    stevenaia Michinaga: I must leave soon (and go to bed), could someone send me any additional log
    Myna Maven: Well, I need to get going.
    stevenaia Michinaga: night Myna, thanks for joining us
    Threedee Shepherd: same here. Thank you Susi, this was important for me to think about.
    Myna Maven: G"nite all. Until later. I enjoyed my time here. :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: 20:31
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_ to steve and Myna
    Threedee Shepherd: peace, to all!
    stevenaia Michinaga: huggs
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: G'night Myna, Steve.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Time for me to go..see ya'll soon.
    Threedee Shepherd: goodnight Susi
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
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