2009.02.22 19:00 - Trusting Discussion

The Guardian for this meeting was stevenaia Michinaga. The comments are by stevenaia Michinaga.

Adelene Dawner greets me as I arrive and  buddha Nirvana and Pila Mulligan arrive shortly after

Adelene Dawner: ^.^
buddha Nirvana: hey adelene:)
Adelene Dawner: Hi, Buddha. How goes?
buddha Nirvana: ok, u?
Adelene Dawner: Eh, not bad.
Adelene Dawner: Hi, Steve ^.^
buddha Nirvana: hi stevenaia
stevenaia Michinaga: hello
stevenaia Michinaga: hi Buddha
stevenaia Michinaga: I;m still rezzing
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
stevenaia Michinaga: pet pet
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
stevenaia Michinaga: I'll announce the Oscar winners anyone is interested
stevenaia Michinaga: wonders why there are no movies about much of what we discuss here
Adelene Dawner shrugs.
buddha Nirvana: maybe we should make one..
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: hi Pila
buddha Nirvana: evening pila
Pila Mulligan: hi Steve, Ade and buddha
Adelene Dawner: Hi again, Pila ^.^

Squee: Who has fully realized that history is not contained in thick books but lives in our very blood?

Pila Mulligan: thanks you Squee

Squee: ^.^

Adelene Dawner purrs absently as she contemplates social foo.
stevenaia Michinaga: social foo?

Adelene Dawner continues with her thoughts on trust and levels of trust and aspects of relationships.

Adelene Dawner: Mm. I'm back on the 'trust' thing again, from a different angle... ran into a bit of an incident relating to that, earlier.
stevenaia Michinaga: nods
stevenaia Michinaga: new category?
Adelene Dawner  mentions  her perceptive on  personal trust and how she classifies degrees of trust abound people she associates with
Adelene Dawner: Nope. Bit of a rough spot in how I handle aquaintance-level folks.
stevenaia Michinaga: was it resolved?
Adelene Dawner: Not yet.
Pila Mulligan: the rough spot is the previously mentioned incident i suppose
Adelene Dawner: More accurately, the incident revealed the rough spot.
Adelene Dawner: Aquaintance-level is, by definition, people that I don't trust more than my default level, which is pretty low.
buddha Nirvana: do you have a system of trust adelene?
buddha Nirvana: for*
Adelene Dawner: 'System' implies a bit more formality than it has, but yeah, kind of.
Adelene Dawner: The categories are pre-aquaintance (people I either don't recognize or haven't interacted with), aquaintance, friend, near-pride, and pridemate.
Pila Mulligan: who won?
Adelene Dawner: Wasn't that kind of incident, Pila.
Pila Mulligan: ok
Pila Mulligan: glad it wasn't :)
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
buddha Nirvana: near-pride and pridemate are interesting terms, would it be appropriate to as you to elaborate?
buddha Nirvana: ask*

Rowan Masala arrives

Pila Mulligan: hello Rowan
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Rowan
Rowan Masala: hello
Adelene Dawner: 'pridemate' is what most people call 'family', but my actual blood family are not pridemates, so I prefer not to use that word. It's people that I trust completely.
Pila Mulligan: hi doug
buddha Nirvana: ok, ty
Pila Mulligan: pride as in a family of lions :)

Doug Sosa  arrives

stevenaia Michinaga: hello Doug
Adelene Dawner nods at Pila.
Rowan Masala: hi Doug
buddha Nirvana: ah , yes. i missed that
doug Sosa: hi
Adelene Dawner: near-pride are people who I trust to the point where I will seriously consider their advice even when it seems counterintuitive, though that's not the only or most defining trait of the group. Hard to put words to, though.
buddha Nirvana: Do you have your definitions written down?
Adelene Dawner: Nope.

Doug Sosa  leaves

doug Sosa: graphics difficulties,need to log out (:
Adelene Dawner: I'm actually still sussing out where I draw the lines - this is handled mostly on a preconscious/instinctive level, so I don't have direct access to it.
buddha Nirvana: sure, human nature is perhaps quite elusive
Pila Mulligan: you have a more detailed view of trust than I do Ade, interesting to see the contrast
Adelene Dawner: Not just that, Pila, but 'like' is a whole other class of thing.
stevenaia Michinaga: what is yours, Plila
Pila Mulligan: :)
Adelene Dawner: There are people that I consider friends that I don't actually like, which I *know* is odd.
Pila Mulligan: I'm not sure Steve -- I generally trust everyone ...until there is a particularly obvious reason to distrust someone that is
buddha Nirvana: is it because those people tend to be honest?
stevenaia Michinaga: agree
Adelene Dawner shrugs at Pila. "I learned a long time ago that that's not safe to do."
Pila Mulligan: I understand, I'm still learning :)
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
stevenaia Michinaga: I suppose much is defined by how you started out in life

buddha Nirvana explains his odd way of reacting to betrayal

buddha Nirvana: i have an odd way of acting when someone betrays my trust
buddha Nirvana: although i hold no grudge afterwards
stevenaia Michinaga: odd?
Adelene Dawner: yes, Buddha?
buddha Nirvana: yes, i play the piano lol
Rowan Masala: that sounds like a very healthy reaction
buddha Nirvana: i play the piano, anyway, sometimes. but if im hurt by someone's actions, it helps
stevenaia Michinaga: what if there is no piano?
buddha Nirvana: ah, i will always find one, haven't failed to do so yet
buddha Nirvana: although, that was more of a reaction when younger
Pila Mulligan: actually yesterday I had a rare experience of mistrust
Pila Mulligan: I met someone for about the fourth time at a party with a mix of folks
Pila Mulligan: and saw that this person was obviously and entirely bullshit
Pila Mulligan: it was not distrust so much as wow, that is too deep
Adelene Dawner nods.
stevenaia Michinaga: a politician?
Pila Mulligan: should be, but not yet
buddha Nirvana: father xmas?
Pila Mulligan: just someone absolutely sure of their being right but obviously not quite in focus

Adelene Dawner adds an new twist on trust, a sideways definition of 'trust', trusting the predictably dishonest person

Adelene Dawner: That's actually a good example of my sideways definition of 'trust' - it's not about whether the person is honest, it's about whether they're predictable - sounds like he was predictable, so you could trust him, even if what you were trusting him to do was to be dishonest.
Pila Mulligan: :) true
Pila Mulligan: reliably b.s.
Adelene Dawner: Yep.
buddha Nirvana: consistently creepy
Adelene Dawner: The incident I'm thinking of was in the other direction, a bit - I didn't trust the person, in a way that I apparently should have, and that got me into a situation I didn't want to be in.
Pila Mulligan almost gets it :)
stevenaia Michinaga: perfect words... sideways trust
Adelene Dawner: I mentioned that my default level of trust is very low - part of that is that I don't trust people to take a 'no' answer well when they want to do something.
Adelene Dawner: (I've gotten burned by trusting that, specifically.)
Adelene Dawner: So in this situation where I should have said 'no', I didn't, and it snowballed, and I still didn't, because at that point I was too freaked.
Adelene Dawner: The situation itself wasn't dangerous/harmful, just something I'm not comfortable with, but, still.
Pila Mulligan: rl or sl?
Adelene Dawner: SL.
Pila Mulligan: less potential physical harm in sl at least
Adelene Dawner: Yep. I wish my adrenal system would get that memo, tho.
Pila Mulligan: :)
buddha Nirvana: How do people feel about relationship complexities: a good aspect, or bad
Adelene Dawner: Depends on the relationship and the complexity in question.
Pila Mulligan: do you mean is a complex relationship good or bad?
stevenaia Michinaga: Relationship simplicity is better
Pila Mulligan: :)
buddha Nirvana: Yes pila
buddha Nirvana: Is the complex a good aspect of a relationship?
Pila Mulligan: it depends on the complexity as Ade said :)
buddha Nirvana: Complexity in general
Pila Mulligan: but I also like simplicity, as Steve said
buddha Nirvana: Does the complexity of love outweigh the complexity of hate
buddha Nirvana: It's a very general question
Pila Mulligan: sure
buddha Nirvana: its*
stevenaia Michinaga: simplicity of love, you mean?
Pila Mulligan: that's like the saying it take four muscles to smile and ten muscle to frown
buddha Nirvana: yes, sometimes also
buddha Nirvana: :))
buddha Nirvana: i guess im talking about the point of effort
stevenaia Michinaga: some things should be effortless, hence simplicity
Pila Mulligan: complexity is usually an added burden for a relationship
buddha Nirvana: are relationships worth the effort, due to their complex nature
Pila Mulligan: yes
buddha Nirvana: yes, but often are they simple?
Pila Mulligan: yes also
stevenaia Michinaga: they can be made complex but usually not need to be
buddha Nirvana: sure
Pila Mulligan: ):
Pila Mulligan: or is it :)
stevenaia Michinaga: when the underlying theme of a successful relationship is acceptance, simplicity is revealed
Pila Mulligan: there is a really nice quote from Confucius on this, but I cannot find it to quote it verbatim
Pila Mulligan: something like this: sometimes people find words easily, sometimes they are dammed up
Pila Mulligan: sometimes thing go smoothly sometimes they are difficult
Pila Mulligan: but the relationship of friend is simple and sweet, like the fragrance of a flower
buddha Nirvana: nice sentiment
stevenaia Michinaga: yes
Pila Mulligan: :)
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Rowan Masala: I must go. Good to see you all
Pila Mulligan: bye Rowan
Adelene Dawner: cya, Ro.
stevenaia Michinaga: nigt Rowan
buddha Nirvana: bye :)

Squee: Everyone has their own magic because nothing is real.

Pila Mulligan: :)
Adelene Dawner grins at Squee
Pila Mulligan: or everything is real
Adelene Dawner: (You're definitely going to have to put squee in the log tonight, Steve. He's on a roll. ^.^)
buddha Nirvana: or everything is a rabbt
buddha Nirvana: rabbit
Adelene Dawner giggles at Buddha.
stevenaia Michinaga: does the recorder remove Sqee's comments?
Adelene Dawner: Nope.
Adelene Dawner: Er, yep. :P
Adelene Dawner fails at reading comprehension ^.^
Adelene Dawner: The auto-recorder only records avs.
stevenaia Michinaga: ok
buddha Nirvana: i read how, is her name miran, last night logged the chat
buddha Nirvana: she gave it a nice narrative, read like an intriguing short story
Pila Mulligan: yes, some guardians add comments
buddha Nirvana: is it miran, or myan
buddha Nirvana: im not entirely sure
buddha Nirvana: was nice :)
stevenaia Michinaga: Myna
stevenaia Michinaga: ?
buddha Nirvana: yes, thats it, ty
buddha Nirvana: it was an interesting session in itself, she added a nice alternate perceotion of what was being discussed
buddha Nirvana: perception
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, some guardians have a wonderful ability to add supplementary insights to their logs, there is also a place for comments at the end, but those don;t get used that much
buddha Nirvana: :)
Adelene Dawner: Hi Doug, bye Doug. *chuckle*
buddha Nirvana: a bad joke comes to mind
stevenaia Michinaga: missed him
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: please, buddha -- the bad joke ...
buddha Nirvana: ahh lol
buddha Nirvana: i cant..
buddha Nirvana: :))
Pila Mulligan: I'e told bad jokes, you can :)
buddha Nirvana: ok..
buddha Nirvana: you all know the punch-line already
buddha Nirvana: ..
buddha Nirvana: what do you call a man with a spade on his head?
Pila Mulligan: ?
buddha Nirvana: d(o)ug
Adelene Dawner giggles.
Pila Mulligan: :)
buddha Nirvana: :x
Pila Mulligan: what did the termite say when he walked into the bar?
Pila Mulligan: is the bar tender here?
buddha Nirvana: :D

Commenters note: it took me a full day to "get" that one

A new face arrived but never confirmed that it was ok to record their comments

stevenaia Michinaga: hello Star
Pila Mulligan: hi Star
Star _____: hi
buddha Nirvana: EveningStar
Star _____: hello
stevenaia Michinaga: have you been here before?
Star _____: nope
stevenaia Michinaga: we record our sessions, do you mind if your comments are included
Star _____: y are sessions recorded
stevenaia Michinaga: yes and posted on our Wiki
stevenaia Michinaga: we have a discussion group 4 times a day here
Star _____: oic
stevenaia Michinaga: you seem to keep sinking into the ground
buddha Nirvana: yes. you okay over there?
Star _____: oops
stevenaia Michinaga: come have a seat
Pila Mulligan: :)

buddha Nirvana describes his recent dream

buddha Nirvana: Last nights dream :
buddha Nirvana: i had the strangest dream last night
buddha Nirvana: I was in a pinning vortex
buddha Nirvana: spinning*
buddha Nirvana: and was totally helpless
buddha Nirvana: tried to grab onto something and shout, but the vacuum wouldn't allow me
Pila Mulligan: what was the substance of the vortex, buddha? air?
buddha Nirvana: something similar to a fog
buddha Nirvana: a cyclone may paint an accurate picture#
Pila Mulligan: ok, thanks
buddha Nirvana: but it wasn't a cyclone as it was apart of any atmosphere
buddha Nirvana: from*
Pila Mulligan: then what happened?
buddha Nirvana: nothing. just a feeling of dread
buddha Nirvana: no ground to fall and be killed on, just flying through an infinite space
buddha Nirvana: forever
buddha Nirvana: thats how it felt, and i remember thinging "this will never end"
Pila Mulligan: :)
buddha Nirvana: thinking*
stevenaia Michinaga: interesting, a dream can be forever
buddha Nirvana: yes
buddha Nirvana: maybe thats what this is
buddha Nirvana: *.*
buddha Nirvana: without the apparent vortex
Pila Mulligan: Ade, did you want to say more about your incident?
Adelene Dawner: Well...
buddha Nirvana: have we gone wildly off on a tangent i was unconscious to?
Pila Mulligan: actually your dream made me think of Ade's incident for some reason, buddha
Adelene Dawner: y'all do have a point with the 'relationships being better when they're simple' thing - no worries, Buddha - but it's not that simple. There are other factors involved.
buddha Nirvana: unconscious *
buddha Nirvana: complex ones?
Adelene Dawner: Functionally, yes.
Adelene Dawner: Or, the combination of the two factors is complex.
buddha Nirvana: understood 
Pila Mulligan: bye Star
Adelene Dawner: If it was just a relationship thing, being honest would be ideal. If it was just a safety thing, the answer would be obvious there, too. But it's not just either of those.
buddha Nirvana: *waves*
buddha Nirvana: what other factors are involved for you?
Adelene Dawner: Just the safety thing.

Squee: When your heart speaks, take good notes.

Adelene Dawner: If it were purely a relationship issue, I'd just tell the person: No, there's a line there.
Adelene Dawner: But I consider it unsafe to do that.
buddha Nirvana: leaving yourself exposed?
buddha Nirvana: i think it can make us vulnerable if someone knows our boundaries
Adelene Dawner: That's a good way of putting it, yeah.
buddha Nirvana: not always, but some people will persist to test them
Pila Mulligan: hi Wan
buddha Nirvana: i take joy in having found someone's boundary and approach it gently
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Wan, have you been here before?
buddha Nirvana: it gives that person an unsaid feeling of trust
Adelene Dawner nods emphatically at Buddha.
buddha Nirvana: *waves at wan*
Pila Mulligan: avis seem to be sinking into the rim of the pavilion
stevenaia Michinaga: strange thing about that
stevenaia Michinaga: sinking
buddha Nirvana: is it them or the sim?
buddha Nirvana: shall i test?
stevenaia Michinaga: sure
buddha Nirvana: no quicksand here
Pila Mulligan: no quick pixels :)
Pila Mulligan: could buddha's dream vortex have any proximity to Ade's won't-say-no incident?
Adelene Dawner: ...yes but not in any way I can put into words.
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: 'tried to grab onto something and shout, but the vacuum wouldn't allow me'
buddha Nirvana: its a very disorientating feeling
Pila Mulligan: 'a feeling of dread'
buddha Nirvana: cant think of a comparison, perhaps space travel?
Pila Mulligan: perhaps not having your feet on the ground
buddha Nirvana: sure. that doesn't make sense to my personal circumstance, though
buddha Nirvana: I'm fairly well grounded
Pila Mulligan: but maybe as you approach Ade's boundary gently the image is a gift
Adelene Dawner: Maybe more like 'not having any good option'?
buddha Nirvana: AWell, i think i may
buddha Nirvana: am*
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
Pila Mulligan: maybe somewhere in that image is a friendly common ground
buddha Nirvana: off the point slightly
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: just being a metaphysical romantic
buddha Nirvana: If you don't have any boundries. that sometimes gives you an insight into where people "think " your boundy is
buddha Nirvana: and from that, you get an insight into what their boundries are
buddha Nirvana: if someone is testing a particular aspect of you. it may say more of what they feel threatened by
stevenaia Michinaga: true
buddha Nirvana: but i think that only comes if you do not take the probing personally, and refrain from reacting
buddha Nirvana: if you do the thing shuts down and a boundry if formed
buddha Nirvana: is*
buddha Nirvana: i guess thats why the 'saints' are so insightful into human nature
buddha Nirvana: they are selfless, and trust is possibly not an issue
buddha Nirvana: they look down at those who probe from above
buddha Nirvana: i use to have a term for that
buddha Nirvana: 'mountain minded'
buddha Nirvana: am i being too abstract?
Pila Mulligan: they used to say that about tai chi master chen man ching -- 'you try to hit him but he is just not there!'
stevenaia Michinaga: no, but I am a bit finished for the evening
buddha Nirvana: ha :)
buddha Nirvana: stevenaia, getting pretty early here also
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
buddha Nirvana: :)
Pila Mulligan: well, are we pau? (pau=finished)
buddha Nirvana: sure, yes
Adelene Dawner thinks so.
stevenaia Michinaga: yes
Pila Mulligan: thanks for the session friends
stevenaia Michinaga: feel free to continue another time
buddha Nirvana: yes, thanks all
buddha Nirvana: sleep well, if its that time for you
Pila Mulligan: aloha `oe
stevenaia Michinaga: night Ade
Adelene Dawner: 'night all