2009.02.23 19:00 - Choosing

Wol Euler recovered this session from the autologging database and suggested a provisional title. The guardian appears to have been Ade covering for Stim.

Adelene Dawner: Hullo, Eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Adelene :)
Adelene Dawner: Hi Buddha ^.^
Eliza Madrigal: Hiya buddha
buddha Nirvana: Hi ad, HI el :))
Eliza Madrigal: Feel more comfortable on this cushion :)
Adelene Dawner: Three's going ot be late today, so I'm filling in as GoC for the moment.
Eliza Madrigal: Ah
buddha Nirvana: okies
buddha Nirvana: im in a reflective mood, may not do much talking *.*
Eliza Madrigal: Hi again Neela
Adelene Dawner: Fine by me - I've got scripting I should be doing on the other screen. Hi, Nee. :)
Neela Blaisdale: Hi Eliza, Ade and Buddha:)
buddha Nirvana: Hi Neela :)
Adelene Dawner: Hi Pila ^.^
Adelene Dawner: Hi Corvi-Luv. ^.^
Neela Blaisdale: Hi Corvi:)!
Eliza Madrigal: Hello Pila, Corvuscova
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi all!
Pila Mulligan: greetings
Neela Blaisdale: Hi Pila
Adelene Dawner: Are you sure that's the cushion you want, Eliza? ^.^
Pila Mulligan: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Help!
Pila Mulligan: come over here in the crowd Eliza :)
Adelene Dawner: hm?
Eliza Madrigal: I was up in the air!
Eliza Madrigal: I feel odd on the blue cushions too :)
Pila Mulligan: ahh, the SL lag issue
Eliza Madrigal: That's never happened to me before...was being rolled around
Pila Mulligan: by tuoching the cushion you can change the sitting posture of your avi
Eliza Madrigal: Ah! thank you
buddha Nirvana: lol
Eliza Madrigal: hahah...learning isn't always pretty
Neela Blaisdale: I never knew that!
Pila Mulligan: Storm's clever design :)
Pila Mulligan: isn't tomorrow the birthday event?
Eliza Madrigal: It is...is it an all day thing?
Pila Mulligan: I'm not sure, but I believe the midday PaB event will be at Kira's
Eliza Madrigal: Let me look for invite...
Pila Mulligan: or 1:00pm SLT event that is
Adelene Dawner o.Os at Squee... You have 300 quotes, Mouse, why are you repeating that one at me?
Eliza Madrigal: I have the invite. Would anyone like a copy>?
Pila Mulligan: it is timely, maybe
Pila Mulligan: yes please Eliza, I would
Eliza Madrigal: Tell me if you got it please :)
Neela Blaisdale: Sure Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Hmm...making a "no" sign to dragging and dropping
Eliza Madrigal: Very new to all this obviously, but trying
Pila Mulligan: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Is there a way to give a notecard without dragging and dropping?
Pila Mulligan: are you trying to drop it directly on theimage of the avi, or in the avi's profile?
Eliza Madrigal: Into Avi image
Pila Mulligan: there's a 'Drop invenotry item here' box at the lower part of every avi's profile
Eliza Madrigal: Yes see that now you mentioned it ;-)
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks
Pila Mulligan: got it, thanks
Neela Blaisdale: Thanks Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Adelene, do you have/want it?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Thanks, Eliza.
Adelene Dawner: No, that's ok, thanks. :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Neela Blaisdale: Oh dear wish I didn't have to be at work all day tomorrow
Adelene Dawner: 'have to'?
Neela Blaisdale: yes have to physically be there and not allowed to use work computers for this
Neela Blaisdale: although I guess everything in life is a choice:)
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Not every choice is comfortable though
Adelene Dawner nods.
Pila Mulligan: .. or for the preferred option :)
Neela Blaisdale: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Someone once said to me that "There's a time to choose, and a time to enter into the choice you've made" ....was many years ago and I'm still not quite sure what thy meant
Adelene Dawner: Choosing to do something and doing the thing you've chosen are two different steps, and they're both important.
Pila Mulligan: maybe it's like the period between an engagement and a marriage
Eliza Madrigal: Hmm..that's along the lines of what I think also...
Eliza Madrigal: And i guess there's a big choice, and then daily choosing
Eliza Madrigal: like going to work :))
Pila Mulligan: :)
Adelene Dawner nods.
Neela Blaisdale: It;s good when the everyday remains a conscious choice and not automatic, staying mindful of the choices
Eliza Madrigal: Hm, yes
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hiya, Three.
Adelene Dawner gasps! Three's human! ^.-
Pila Mulligan: hi Three
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Threedee
Pila Mulligan: classical Chinese philsophy (as in the I Ching) identifes these elements of choosing: (1) contemplating the situational image, (2) forming judgment(s) as to the situation, and (3) the decision
Threedee Shepherd: Threedee arrives in his work clothes
Neela Blaisdale: Hi Three
Neela Blaisdale: Never seen you in this av before!
Pila Mulligan: well, we all need to shed our outer lions fomr time to time
Adelene Dawner: /mw scoffs playfully at Pila. ^.^
Neela Blaisdale: …º
Pila Mulligan: eek, the claws Ade, the claws
Adelene Dawner chuckles.
Neela Blaisdale: or purrs:)
Adelene Dawner: Or both. ^.^
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, that'sThanks, Pila. Interesting to break it down like that.
Eliza Madrigal: Sorry...bad sentence editing there ;-)
Pila Mulligan: shows they had more time than we do :)
Adelene Dawner: Well, we still do those steps, just faster.
Pila Mulligan: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Can see that
Threedee Shepherd: I will be radical and say until one DOES something, no choice is made, and wehn you do it, you don't know your choice until you acrtually start.
Pila Mulligan: ah, exactly where we started afew moments ago
Pila Mulligan: [19:19] Eliza Madrigal: Someone once said to me that "There's a time to choose, and a time to enter into the choice you've made" ....was many years ago and I'm still not quite sure what thy meant
Adelene Dawner: Conscious vs. non-conscious choices, Three. :)
Threedee Shepherd: Is there such a thing as a conscious choice? Or do we tell ourselves a story after the fact?
Pila Mulligan: free will - the most intersting question
Adelene Dawner is pretty sure there is, but they're much rarer than most people would admit to. ^.^
Eliza Madrigal: I think for some people, when they "vow" or choose ... the whole action is in there too
Neela Blaisdale: well do you think one can be in the momentz?
Threedee Shepherd: Oh, the doing is free will-in my opinion--just initiated per-consciously. the
Pila Mulligan: soounds contradcitory
buddha Nirvana: achoo
Neela Blaisdale: If it is in the moment then one can be aware, therefore conscious of it?
buddha Nirvana: :)
Adelene Dawner chuckles at Buddha.
Eliza Madrigal: And I'm not sure we ever can be sure we're conscious...always more to develop perhaps?
Threedee Shepherd: Most of what I do is not conscious until after the fact. My pre-conscious ccan have free will in the sense of REALLY choosing between alternatives
Neela Blaisdale: but if you're not aware of it is it really a choice?
Threedee Shepherd: Of course. My pre-conscious is as much me--perhaps moreso--than what reaches consciousness.
Pila Mulligan: pre-conscious free will, now there's an interesting twist :)
Eliza Madrigal: agreed
Eliza Madrigal: I was hearing preconscious as something not quite...not turned again
Neela Blaisdale: seems like a paradox
Eliza Madrigal: now=not
Neela Blaisdale: preconscious free will....
Threedee Shepherd: Look, you go into the store and say chocolate cone please. Pre-consciously the CHOICE between chocolate and rocky road fudge was made, you finally iknew what you wanted when you heard yourself say it.
buddha Nirvana: mmmm fudge
buddha Nirvana: i think tomorrows choice will be fudge for me
Neela Blaisdale: :)
Threedee Shepherd: Conscious awareness if a very tiny part of the brain/body activity. That does not mean the stuff that does not reach consciousness is simple mindless automaton activity
Adelene Dawner: Yes, most of the time. Sometimes - rarely - that kind of decision isn't made there, and 'chocolate' and 'rocky road' both reach consciousness, or some similarly un-definite inclination, and the decision *is* made there.
Threedee Shepherd: *is a very
Threedee Shepherd: True, but I bet not often
Adelene Dawner: ep. I keep saying 'rarely' for a reason. ^.^
Adelene Dawner: *Yep
Eliza Madrigal: So is it a slow free will that causes someone (like me) to stand there twice as long before hearing the choice I made?
Threedee Shepherd: I would suspect that when it really is that rare moment your blood pressure rises and stress reflexes occur
buddha Nirvana: does the 'timing' of an arrival of a chouce have any bearing.?
buddha Nirvana: choice*
Adelene Dawner nods at Three. "I know *I* tend to beuncomfortable at having to make choices consciously."
Threedee Shepherd: I have another theory on why it takes longer to "decide" sometimes. We have filters that keep stuff neatly running without needing to reach consciousness. Sometimes we set those filters more strongly than other times
Pila Mulligan: in some instances may we not be conscious of what would otherwise be going on pre-consciously?
Eliza Madrigal: Hm, yes - filters we put there before hand consciously perhaps :)
Threedee Shepherd: Yes Pila, and it is interesting to ask why. that is, what is consciousness good for?
Pila Mulligan: meditating :)
Adelene Dawner is often - neurological quirk - aware of it. That doesn't mean that the processing is actually happening consciously, though.
Pila Mulligan: makes oyu feel good :)
Pila Mulligan: hi Steve
Corvuscorva Nightfire: hi, Stevie
Neela Blaisdale: and maybe also gives us the illusion of control
Threedee Shepherd: I think the main purpose is that consciousness let's you remember the future.
Neela Blaisdale: Hi Steve
buddha Nirvana: perhaps we forget the options we no longer want to consider as a safety mechanism
Adelene Dawner: Hi, Steve :)
stevenaia Michinaga: waves
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Steven
Threedee Shepherd: hi steve
stevenaia Michinaga: remember the future? when?
Threedee Shepherd: It's called "planning"
Eliza Madrigal: I think consciousness and timing do have a lot to do with each other
Neela Blaisdale: Can you "remember" something before it happens?
Neela Blaisdale: *m
Eliza Madrigal: Some plan meticulously...but years later tink "What did I do? Why did I do that?"
buddha Nirvana: in the book "quantum mind of god" it talks about how we have forgotten, and collapsed down from higher realms of being because we can no longer comprehend choices available to us
Threedee Shepherd: when you plan and put it in memory, it is just as solid as stufff that happened in the past.
Eliza Madrigal: Ahhhh
buddha Nirvana: so maybe we are unconcious to a degree
Pila Mulligan: or filtered
buddha Nirvana: sure
Threedee Shepherd: we all ARE. Some of that being catches our "conscious attention". It's all one--though
buddha Nirvana: we are now in the most gross form of existence, like you say filtered, down to the most mundane form of being
Adelene Dawner nudges Buddha.
Adelene Dawner: It's beautiful here, tho.
Eliza Madrigal: I don't feel gross
buddha Nirvana: ah sure
Eliza Madrigal: :)
buddha Nirvana: hehe
Threedee Shepherd: the most mundane is the most fundamental
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
buddha Nirvana: supramundane is the most findemental, isnt it?
Pila Mulligan: another note card arrives :)
Threedee Shepherd: what is supramundane
buddha Nirvana: we are merely mundane
buddha Nirvana: its a buddhist terminolgy, let me get a definition..
Adelene Dawner ponders for a minute, then nudges Buddha again. "Merely??"
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Pila Mulligan: ... and another note card arrives :)
stevenaia Michinaga: isn;t "mundane" a critical judgement?
Pila Mulligan: not necessarily
Pila Mulligan: it could just be a description
Adelene Dawner: That doesn't have to be, but 'merely' pretty firmly is.
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: if a person is "mundane', you wouldn;t consider that demeaning?
Threedee Shepherd: I use mundane to me basically alive, awake and moving in the world and reacting to and acting upon it in basic ways
Adelene Dawner: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Supramundane : Celesital.
Pila Mulligan: my view Steve is similar to Threes, it is just the day to day stuff
stevenaia Michinaga: ok
Threedee Shepherd: Is there something other than other stars and galaxies that is celestial?
Pila Mulligan: a conditionis more likely to bemundane than a person, inthis sense
Threedee Shepherd: Squee--to sound like Avastu--we just are...
Pila Mulligan: well, all thos elittle vactioning quarks, Three
buddha Nirvana: its quite a large quote:
buddha Nirvana: Supramundane or enlightened protectors Supramundane protectors are emanations of Buddhas and Bodhisattvas who have taken on this role to avert inner and outer obstacles to the practice of Dharma. In Vajrayana practice, along with the "Three Jewels" (Buddha, Dharma and Sangha), there are the "Three Roots“ Guru, Yidam, and protector. The Guru gives blessing, the Yidam attainments and the protector creates conducive conditions. When we look at a refuge tree, the Yidams are up and the protectors below, but that doesn't mean that one is higher than the other. Maybe one could say that one prepares a fertile ground and the other provides the sunlight. In any case, both of them are needed, just like merit and wisdom make up the "two accumulations" that lead to Buddhahood. And both are ultimately emanated from the Guru's enlightened mind.
Adelene Dawner: Steve : Yeah, I'd probably consider it insulting, because it's an insulting oversimplification - not very accurate. ^.^
Pila Mulligan: i like seeing the appearance of resonance of some of Three's neurology-based theory with traditional philosophy
buddha Nirvana: the supramundane in scientific thought is the very fabric that makes up everything in the universe
buddha Nirvana: the extreme subtle
buddha Nirvana: i guess an enlightend being would comprehend this from an experiencial level
Threedee Shepherd: OK. There is the stuff of the universe. What does giving it a name add?
Eliza Madrigal: A idea form to work/play with
buddha Nirvana: Perhaps nothing, i was refering to the point i made about us collapsing to the mundane
Eliza Madrigal: play dough
buddha Nirvana: possibly through entropy
stevenaia Michinaga: definition?
Pila Mulligan: what consciousness is good for -- it is good for being happy to be aware of itself
Threedee Shepherd: Life is hard as well as fun. Shit happens. We would like candy and ice cream and harmony, but that ain't the way it is here. That does not necessarily imply that, that's the way it is in some other essence-tial place.
Pila Mulligan: heaven?
Threedee Shepherd: Anyplace I have to die in order to get to is suspect, as I see it.
buddha Nirvana: im a firm believer that we live in 'heaven' or 'hell' in this moment, now
Eliza Madrigal: I always figure there is something to most concepts we grasp onto...they're metaphors yes, but something essential when it is a pattern that repeats..collective ideas
Neela Blaisdale: Well I must go, off to sleep, maybe drean of other essential places:)
Neela Blaisdale: Goodnight eevryone
buddha Nirvana: nite neela :)
Threedee Shepherd: goodnight Neela
Eliza Madrigal: Night, Neela:) Find pleasure in your work tomorrow :))
stevenaia Michinaga: night Neela
Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles..'night, Neela.
Adelene Dawner: 'night, Nee.
Pila Mulligan [singing] 'Heaven, I'm in Heaven, And the [mundane] cares that hang around me thru the week seem to vanish like a gambler's lucky streak'
Eliza Madrigal: When we're out together dancing cheek to cheek....
Pila Mulligan: yes :)
Threedee Shepherd: Sounds Earthy, to me
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Pila Mulligan: Irving Berlin
stevenaia Michinaga: yawns, I must be off
Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye, Steve
Pila Mulligan: sleep well Steve
Threedee Shepherd: Night, Steve
Eliza Madrigal: Have to have your feet on the ground to dance in heaven?
Eliza Madrigal: Night, Steven
Adelene Dawner: 'night, Steve
Eliza Madrigal: Okay...I'm getting a little silly I think. I've not slept much in the last few days and who knows what I'll start typing if I stay another second longer
buddha Nirvana: :)
Pila Mulligan: ah, another sleep well then for Eliza
Adelene Dawner: 'night, El.
Threedee Shepherd: Oh, sounds exciting.....^.^
Eliza Madrigal: :) Thanks, this has been fun
buddha Nirvana: NIte Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Night
Threedee Shepherd: Goodnight folks :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: G'night, Three.
Adelene Dawner: Cya later, Three.
Pila Mulligan: bye Three
buddha Nirvana: nite three
buddha Nirvana: i think i might hit my hut
Pila Mulligan: bye buddha
buddha Nirvana: nite all, :))
Adelene Dawner: ok, 'night Buddha.
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods..see ya.
buddha Nirvana: Nite:)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I'm off too.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: night all.
Pila Mulligan: bye Corvi
Adelene Dawner: Wanna just close it down, Pila? Or are you still in a chatty mood?
Pila Mulligan: well, I'm up for whatevers, how about yourself?
Adelene Dawner: Same, but semi-elsewhere coding. I can multitask tho.
Pila Mulligan: my next task is to get my laggy avi over to the Kira's Cafe so it will arise there tomorrow instead of here
Adelene Dawner: *nods*