2009.06.03 13:00 - Nature v. Nurture v. No Self

The Guardian for this meeting was genesis Zhangsun. The comments are by genesis Zhangsun.

Yakuzza Lethecus: hey
Questa Blackheart: Hi.
genesis Zhangsun: Hi!
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey there
genesis Zhangsun: sorry I went to email because no one was here
Questa Blackheart: That's OK
Questa Blackheart: What is this?
Yakuzza Lethecus: hello roberto, sara
genesis Zhangsun: this is a discussion group exploring the nature reality
genesis Zhangsun: *of reality
Questa Blackheart: OK. Sounds interesting.
Roberto Couturier: sit sara
genesis Zhangsun: welcome
Roberto Couturier: thank you
genesis Zhangsun: first I have to mention that all of our conversations are made public
genesis Zhangsun: on our wiki
genesis Zhangsun: so if you participate you will become part of this public transcript
Questa Blackheart: I see.
genesis Zhangsun: http://playasbeing.wik.is/
genesis Zhangsun: we post our logs so others who are part of our community can read
Questa Blackheart: Is it OK if I join in?
genesis Zhangsun: sure please
Questa Blackheart: Thanks.
genesis Zhangsun: it is completely open to the public
Sara Calcutt: grazie e arriverci
genesis Zhangsun: So Questa how did you find us?
Questa Blackheart: I saw a few people here and came to see what was happening.
Questa Blackheart: You discuss the nature of reality? Sounds like a big topic.
genesis Zhangsun: indeed :)
genesis Zhangsun: we do it from all different perspectives
genesis Zhangsun: we are open to all perspectives
genesis Zhangsun: some come into it from science others from spirituality
genesis Zhangsun: and most of us a combination of both
Questa Blackheart: Where do you come from?
genesis Zhangsun: me personally?
Questa Blackheart: Yes.
genesis Zhangsun: I am from California
Questa Blackheart: I meant science or spirituality. :)
genesis Zhangsun: lol
genesis Zhangsun: sorry
Questa Blackheart: np
genesis Zhangsun: I am interested in contemplation, I am agnostic and I appreciate and accept a scientific world view
Questa Blackheart: So you wouldn't call yourself spiritual then?
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey mick
Questa Blackheart: Hi
Mickorod Renard: Hiya
genesis Zhangsun: hmm spiritual is very broad but yes I would say I am also spiritual
Questa Blackheart: I see.
genesis Zhangsun: there are definitely things beyond the explanation of science
genesis Zhangsun: what about you Questa?
Questa Blackheart: I guess I have a spiritual side...
Questa Blackheart: But I am also curious about science.
genesis Zhangsun: yes in what way curious about science?
genesis Zhangsun: HI Mick :)
Mickorod Renard: hi Gen
Questa Blackheart: Well...
Questa Blackheart: I've always been interested in how hte universe works.
genesis Zhangsun: yes and how do you think it works :)
Mickorod Renard: I think we all have interests in that too,,and time, dreams..and all sorts,,conciousness too
Questa Blackheart: Where would I start? :-)
Mickorod Renard: all those things that the answers seem to be elusive to us
Questa Blackheart: From a spiritual point of view I think we create the universe ourselves.
Mickorod Renard: from an @ourselves' ,,do you mean that you have created the personal narrative of the universe you exist in,,or ourselves ..in that we as a collective have created it?
Questa Blackheart: Is there a difference?
genesis Zhangsun: Hi Mar
Mickorod Renard: well..perhaps not in anyway obvious,,but was thinking back into the quantum time line
genesis Zhangsun: Hi Winston
Winston Haystack: HI
Mickorod Renard: he he he
Questa Blackheart: I'm not sure what you mean by quantum time line.
genesis Zhangsun: me neither
genesis Zhangsun: :)
genesis Zhangsun: Maybe we can back up a bit seems like a few new people here :)
Mickorod Renard: well..like if you follow time back..like down a funnel towards the big bang...if it existed,,,,,,,well if you reverse that to when you were born,,then is your universe ,yours
genesis Zhangsun: So first I have to say all of our transcripts are public on our wiki
genesis Zhangsun: \http://playasbeing.wik.is/
genesis Zhangsun: that is where our chatlogs are posted
genesis Zhangsun: as well as an explanation about the meditation practice we are exploring
genesis Zhangsun: every fifteen minutes we take a 90 second silence
Questa Blackheart: Thank you Mickorod
genesis Zhangsun: this is an extension of our central practice which is to take a 9 second break every 15 minutes
Mickorod Renard: I have given out some note cards Gen
genesis Zhangsun: okay thanks Mic
genesis Zhangsun: so what we do in those 9 seconds is up to you but we are exploring the idea of "dropping what you have" to be what you are
Questa Blackheart: The bell lasts for 90 seconds though?
genesis Zhangsun: hence "playing as being"
genesis Zhangsun: no the bell does not last 90 seconds but the silence and then there is a reminder when the 90 seconds are over
genesis Zhangsun: any questions?
Questa Blackheart: Sorry, that's what I meant.
genesis Zhangsun: about the practice or about anything, the universe, whatever ;)
Winston Haystack: Drop what you have?
genesis Zhangsun: yes indeed
genesis Zhangsun: think about the ways in which you define yourself
genesis Zhangsun: I am an engineer, I am asian, I am a mother, I am a wife
genesis Zhangsun: and see those things as not what you necessarily are but what you "have"
genesis Zhangsun: you have the ability to code, you have a child, you have a husband
genesis Zhangsun: but are you really limited by those things?
genesis Zhangsun: do they completely define what you are?
genesis Zhangsun: it is an open question
genesis Zhangsun: our belief is that if you hold your identifications more lightly, you might find there is more to who you really are
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey sophia
genesis Zhangsun: hey sophia
sophia Placebo: hi yak , hi all :)
Mickorod Renard: Hi Sophia
genesis Zhangsun: what do you think about that Winston and Questa?
Winston Haystack: I like it
Winston Haystack: Very similar to existentialism
Questa Blackheart: What are you other than those things?
genesis Zhangsun: thats the exploration :)
Winston Haystack: I am none of them
Questa Blackheart: So what are you Winston?
Winston Haystack: I am nothing
sophia Placebo: :)
Questa Blackheart: Nihilism?
Mickorod Renard: if I can give a personal example,,very quickly
Winston Haystack: Not nihilism
Mickorod Renard: I have found that when i give myself some time,,to drop those definaitions,,,i seem to be able to see the world, nature etc a little more clearly,,without all the busy noise of lifes expectations
Questa Blackheart: Sorry. I will have to go.
Questa Blackheart: Maybe I can come back another time.
Mickorod Renard: bye questa
genesis Zhangsun: please do questa
sophia Placebo: bye questa
genesis Zhangsun: we meet every six hours :)
Mickorod Renard: yes please
genesis Zhangsun: 7am, 1pm, 7pm, 1am
Questa Blackheart: Thank you.
Questa Blackheart: Bye.
genesis Zhangsun: so Winston what do you mean by you are nothing
genesis Zhangsun: I like that
Winston Haystack: I'll try to explain
Winston Haystack: If we are not what we call our identities, we are then left with nothing
Winston Haystack: We are an interpretation
Winston Haystack: That comes from our social situation
Winston Haystack: We are made up, so to speak
Winston Haystack: Social constructs
Winston Haystack: But these identites really feel like they are real
Winston Haystack: And they are just an illusion
Winston Haystack: Thus, we are nothing
genesis Zhangsun: we are avatars :)
genesis Zhangsun: literally
genesis Zhangsun: is that what you mean?
genesis Zhangsun: skins wrapped around space?
sophia Placebo: :)
Winston Haystack: Hmmm
Winston Haystack: I'm not sure yet
Mickorod Renard: do you think our conciousness is all that exists Win?
Yakuzza Lethecus: or you mean that we just believe that we are individual´s but we are highly determined by the social factors in our ontogenesis ?
sophia Placebo: if an eagel was raised by a chicken , never learned to fly , lived like a chicken but didnt feel like a chicken , when he discover the illusion then is he a chicken or an eagel or non ? is that your question win ?
Winston Haystack: I know some philosophy, and this is where I am getting these ideas
genesis Zhangsun: are you sure about that Win?
genesis Zhangsun: that your ideas are just a product of some of your knowledge about philosophy
genesis Zhangsun: I bet a lot of people have read those same books and never interpreted it to have the same meaning
Winston Haystack: I'll try to explain
Winston Haystack: Our identy of gender, say- masculine or male is kind of like a different world than say a female gender world. Which sugggests gender is not an essence per se as much a asocial construct, Thus the saying "existence precedes essence"
genesis Zhangsun: yes that makes sense
Winston Haystack: Identity is sometimes understood to be an essence, that is- as somethig necessary and not contingent, or that we cant change it
genesis Zhangsun: I also believe that our worlds, our notions about ourselves are experientially constructed but I am not sure if that constructions is entirely social or whether genetics has something to do with it too
Yakuzza Lethecus: you read much about existentialism ?
genesis Zhangsun: the nature v. nurture argument
Winston Haystack: It is, imo, very changeable and a different world will show up for with any identity change. The flux of the identity suggests that there is nothing grounding our identies as necessary. Thus, there is no ground , nothing there
genesis Zhangsun: reminds of the zen saying about the mountatin
genesis Zhangsun: any of you know that one?
Yakuzza Lethecus listens
Winston Haystack: There might be some genetic structure that determines some form of identity, imo it doesn't support a necessary identity, just a form of one
genesis Zhangsun: *mountain
Mickorod Renard: I think its a great concept, but where do we move on from this line of thought,,what positives can we take from it Win?
genesis Zhangsun: yes Win I agree re genetics
genesis Zhangsun: and identity
genesis Zhangsun: so the zen saying about the mountain
genesis Zhangsun: it goes: first there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then the mountain reappears
genesis Zhangsun: I take this to mean that first we believe are identification are real
genesis Zhangsun: we buy into our illusions, our assumptions as real
Winston Haystack: Understanding we are nothing underneath should make us more compassionate, we can see someone and know that that could be us. We are kind of all connected in a sense, that we can be anyone
Winston Haystack: and still, we are none of them
genesis Zhangsun: then we see they are socially constructed that they are malleable
genesis Zhangsun: the mountain disappears
genesis Zhangsun: finally the mountain reappears when you can see what in fact is real under all of those assumptions
Mickorod Renard: thats good Win...we often discuss how filters block our true view of the world we live in,,an identity is like a filter
Winston Haystack: Yes Miko,
Winston Haystack: Micko
Mickorod Renard: ;
Mickorod Renard: )
sophia Placebo: like that story gen
genesis Zhangsun: ty its just my interpretation of course I believe it is a koan of some sort
genesis Zhangsun: so really there is no "answer"
genesis Zhangsun: I have to go to a team meeting!
Mickorod Renard: I wouldnt like to say there is no answer,,as that would suggest we have no meaning
sophia Placebo: bye gen
genesis Zhangsun: nice to see you all here
Mickorod Renard: bye gen
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye
genesis Zhangsun: bye!
Winston Haystack: Bye
sophia Placebo: how so mick?
Mickorod Renard: well,,what drives us here is the search for answers
Mar Rodas: bye every body
Mickorod Renard: we all know that it may be frugal,,but its fun
sophia Placebo: bye mars
Winston Haystack: Bye
Mickorod Renard: bye Mar
sophia Placebo: nods
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye
sophia Placebo: well win i dont know if im nothing would makes me more compashionate
Mickorod Renard: I am afraid I have to leave too
sophia Placebo: bye mick
Mickorod Renard: bye everyone
Winston Haystack: Bye
Yakuzza Lethecus: so miles ur reading sartre ?
Winston Haystack: Miles?
Yakuzza Lethecus: ups
Yakuzza Lethecus: winston
Yakuzza Lethecus: omg, how came miles to my mind
sophia Placebo: hehe
Winston Haystack: I was banned because of him
Yakuzza Lethecus: from PH ?
Winston Haystack: No, from Thothica
Winston Haystack: Simulat banned me thinking I was him, we hardly look the same
Winston Haystack: Only similar last names
Yakuzza Lethecus: lol
sophia Placebo: i better be off too
Winston Haystack: Me too, Bye
Yakuzza Lethecus: ok then
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye
sophia Placebo: bye
Yakuzza Lethecus: cya all on PH