2009.06.27 07:00 - Theme session: one and many

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Lia Rikugun. The comments are by Lia Rikugun.

    we started welcoming each other and talkign alittle bit about the weather. 

    Wol addresses the question how we should deal with someone who refuses to give permission to include the name but continues talking in PaB?


    Wol Euler: before we start, I'd like to talk for a moment about something that happened during Sophia's session yesterday
    Wol Euler: (I don't think she's posted the log yet)
    Wol Euler: we were visited by a newcomer who refused permission to include her name and comments, but nonetheless stayed and talked loudly for ten minutes or so
    Wol Euler: looking for an argument, IMHO
    Wol Euler: Sophia asked her (in IM) to leave, she refused
    Wol Euler: I am thinking now that Sophia and I should have encouraged her vigorously to leave, if I had known that you had asked and she refused I would probably have expelled her.
    sophia Placebo: she didnt refused actually
    Wol Euler: May I ask, what do we think about this situation? I'm sure it has come up before, how have others handled it?
    Wol Euler: ah, ok, I misunderstood.
    sophia Placebo: but stayed for a while after she said she would leave :)
    sophia Placebo: then she left
    sophia Placebo: but if i didnt asked her she would gonna stay even longer :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: mmm, there is nothing wrong with ejecting people if needed, we shouldn't be afraid to to so
    sophia Placebo: i was thinking how i would can edit that log
    Eliza Madrigal: Eos had several grievers one night. We muted and ejected best we could... but they were energized by one another.

    cin07 joins us, it's his first time in Second Life ;) welcome!

    sophia Placebo: hi cin07
    Cin07 Carpaccio: Its my first time and im still learning how it works
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Cin :)
    Nymf Hathaway: Than you will have a great time exploring Cin07
    Wol Euler: welcome to SL, cin.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: HI Cin
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Cin07
    Lia Rikugun: http://playasbeing.wik.is/
    Pema Pera: surprisingly, these kind of situations have occurred rather rarely, though one might expect it to happen often, given the nature of SL and the kind of people one sometimes encounters -- it seems that you did the right thing, Sophia and Wol.
    Lia Rikugun: this is our wiki
    Cin07 Carpaccio: Hello everyone........How do you sit down
    Cin07 Carpaccio: ???/
    Lia Rikugun: right click on the cussion
    Wol Euler: hello hana
    Lia Rikugun: and then click sit down ;)
    sophia Placebo: hi hana
    Adams Rubble: Hello Hana
    Nymf Hathaway: Hello Hana
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Hana
    Cin07 Carpaccio: Oh thanks
    Pema Pera: Hi Cino and Hana!
    Hana Furlough: hello everyone~
    Lia Rikugun: cin07 we are recording the chat log, is this ok with you?
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Hana :))
    Cin07 Carpaccio: sure
    Lia Rikugun: i will send you some introduction over IM
    Nymf Hathaway: Hello Yakuzza
    Adams Rubble: Hello Yakuzza
    sophia Placebo: hi yak
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello yakuzza
    Eliza Madrigal: HiYa:)
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Wol Euler holds out a towel
    Hana Furlough: hello yakuzza
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
    Pema Pera: Sophia, as for editing, it is perfectly fine to leave out the whole unpleasant episode, and write a brief comment to that extent, mentioning that somebody interfered who did not want to be named, and leave it at that
    sophia Placebo: ok , can i tell it like a story ?
    Pema Pera: sure!
    Wol Euler smiles
    sophia Placebo: lovely
    Pema Pera: And your theme session about One and Many is now attracting many avatars :-)
    sophia Placebo: :)
    Wol Euler: Cin, I will give you a notecard with a discussion of what happened last time, to bring you up to date

    we start the theme session with the topic "one and many"

    Pema Pera: Shall we start as usual, having only Sophia and Wol talk for a while, and then opening it to the whole group?
    Adams Rubble: Storm can put in bleachers
    Cin07 Carpaccio: ok ;)
    sophia Placebo: sure
    Wol Euler: you first :)
    sophia Placebo: :) ok , i had 3 points , so if i distracted you stop me
    Cin07 Carpaccio: Well i have to leave..see you guys later:)
    sophia Placebo: bye cin
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Cin
    Lia Rikugun: byebye cin07 nice to meet you
    Wol Euler: bye Cin, take care
    Hana Furlough: bye cin

    sophia introduces the 4 verses of the devotion chapter

    1rst part: He is Allah, the One!

    sophia Placebo: i'll start with the devoution chapter , we read this chapter almost in all prayers , it is also called the tawheed or oneness
    sophia Placebo: it is only 4 verses
    sophia Placebo: Say: He is Allah, the One! Allah, the eternally Besought of all! He begetteth not nor was begotten And there is none comparable unto Him. The devotion chapter or the oneness chapter
    sophia Placebo: the explanation : i know it is old english
    sophia Placebo: say allah the one he is the only god and no god but him
    sophia Placebo: the second verse is : allah o assamd : samad has 2 meaning and both are true and explained in the 2 coming verses
    sophia Placebo: samad means the one that everything need him and seek him for help and samad meand the one without parts
    sophia Placebo: the third verse say he has no offspring nor he is one himself for the offspring is a need of us to survive as a species the many of us the better and as the as the root needs the branches so the branches needs the roots but allah is in need of no one and he is not into parts
    sophia Placebo: the fourth one : he has no one like him which means there is no other god or anything that is may not need allah as if he on the same level with him
    sophia Placebo: this is the first point
    sophia Placebo: shall i continoue?
    Wol Euler: please :)
    Wol Euler: or were you done?

    2nd part: the oneness of the universe...

    sophia Placebo: oneness of universe
    sophia Placebo: one of the ways that quran explain this , is the oness of creation as a sign of oneness of creator
    sophia Placebo: that is that all this universe all what human know of it so far appears to be one thing ,same lows same materials and all in all in harmoney
    sophia Placebo: thats how we can speculate about past and future and thats why we trust science because we dont expect a super power here to change the laws and super powers there to give diffrent results
    sophia Placebo: even if you say that it was all a coinsedance : there was no coincedanse that make some laws here and another taht makes some other laws and materials there
    sophia Placebo: thats what we call oneness of creation means that all universe appears like one big creation
    sophia Placebo: here is some quran verses :
    sophia Placebo: If there were therein gods beside Allah, then verily both (the heavens and the earth) had been disordered. Glorified be Allah, the Lord of the Throne, from all that they ascribe (unto Him).
    sophia Placebo: hi fef
    Fefonz Quan: (Hi all!)
    sophia Placebo: Who hath created seven heavens in harmony. Thou (Muhammad) canst see no fault in the Beneficent One's creation; then look again: Canst thou see any rifts?
    Wol Euler waves
    sophia Placebo: end of part 2
    Lia Rikugun: helllo resting
    Resting Thor: hi!

    3rd part: oneness of being

    sophia Placebo: 3rd part is very brief since im not a sufi though i tried to read about it more
    sophia Placebo: wihdatal wojoud : oneness of being this is a sufi belife that they belive that we are all but a presence or revelations to allah not as signs to his glory but as true revelations
    sophia Placebo: thats it
    Wol Euler nods thoughtfully. Thank you, Sophia.
    Eos Amaterasu: Can you say more about that last part?
    sophia Placebo: oneness of being ?
    Eos Amaterasu: "we are all but a presence or revelations to allah not as signs to his glory but as true revelations"
    sophia Placebo: yes thats sufi thoughts that allah is the wojoud -being-
    Eos Amaterasu: Ah! got it
    Wol Euler: I think I've got it :)
    Wol Euler: this relates to the Appearance of Being, doesn't it? we as beings (small b) are not merely pointers to the greater Being but actual, existing, instances of it
    Hana Furlough: can i ask what you mean by (true) revelations?
    sophia Placebo: hmm hana as if you see Allah with your eyes
    sophia Placebo: not only your heart or mind
    Hana Furlough: wow this is interesting
    Wol Euler: there was something said about this in the first session, that in the Islamic view the entire world is a sign of Allah, everything we see is Allah (can't remember the words Sophia used)

    are we perceiving the divine in all our perceptions? and is this the evidence of Him? How does this relate to "good" and "bad" things?

    Resting Thor: so perceiving the divine in all our perceptions?
    sophia Placebo: yes wol but other islamic sects say that we can see with our hearts through the creation that there is a creator
    sophia Placebo: sufis say that we actually dont see creation but creator
    Wol Euler: ah, ok, ty.
    Wol Euler: so the answer to Resting would be "yes"? :)
    sophia Placebo: yes the answer is yes
    sophia Placebo: except we cant see allah with eyes nor we can imagine him how he is
    sophia Placebo: for if we can do that then thats mean that we can define him
    Resting Thor: so....in practice...i would have the thought that i am hearing/seeing/smelling/tasting Allah?
    Wol Euler: interesting.
    sophia Placebo: no resting
    Wol Euler: the evidence of Him, perhaps?
    sophia Placebo: seeing hearing smelling testing his glory will wisdome and mercy
    sophia Placebo: yes wol
    Fefonz Quan: so the evidence is the world, is it?
    sophia Placebo: or your self
    Wol Euler: that which we perceive, and the fact that we -can- perceive it.
    Hana Furlough: so how do we do this?
    Resting Thor: i understand your point...thanks!
    sophia Placebo: do what hana ?
    Fefonz Quan: we percieve also lots of very bad and vicious things, are they part of the evidence too?
    Hana Furlough: oh i'm wondering how we access allash
    sophia Placebo: hmm yes fef
    sophia Placebo: hana just ask him any where any time
    Fefonz Quan: so allah is also the source of evil?
    Wol Euler snorts.
    sophia Placebo: he knows what is in your heart and your thoughts and intentions
    sophia Placebo: no fef , allah creats no evil
    Wol Euler: Sophia, the traditional christian way out of this dilemma is to say that God gave us free will; He told us t he difference between right and wrong but left it open to us to choose between them
    Fefonz Quan: but evil is part of the world
    Wol Euler: is there a parallel in Islam to this?

    allah doesnt create evil, bad things are tests to our patience. In contrast to traditional christian way (God gave us free will) the human is between free will and determinism

    sophia Placebo: bad things that happen to poeple , in islam we precived them as tests to our patient
    Resting Thor: so not evil, ... but seeing hearing smelling testing his glory will wisdome and mercy as painful and bad
    sophia Placebo: wol in islam the human is btw free will and eterminasim
    sophia Placebo: it is something in btw
    Fefonz Quan: Wol, that's the jewish claim too
    sophia Placebo: you are given the means - brains senses prophets - to know the right things but you are free to do them or not
    Wol Euler: it seems pretty sound to me :) Every parent would recognize their children in it.

    we compare human created "bad things" and "bad things" in nature

    sophia Placebo: bye evil you mean volcanos fef?
    Eos Amaterasu: !?!
    Fefonz Quan: nature culcanos and human vulcanos.
    sophia Placebo: human volcanos are human creations
    sophia Placebo: natural disasters are tests
    Fefonz Quan: so lets talk about nature.
    Fefonz Quan: well, some of the victims don't have the second chance to pass it...
    sophia Placebo: :) allah knows about them , he is most mercefull
    Wol Euler: well, a geologist would say that volcanoes are only locally bad :) On a planetary scale they are very good indeed. They spread ash and chemical nutrients over an enormous area
    sophia Placebo: this is not the only life fef
    Adams Rubble: Volcanoes are forces that affect much more than human beings
    sophia Placebo: death is just a gate to other dimensions
    Wol Euler: the difference in fertility between Australia and the rest of the world is due to the lack of volcanoes in the path of thte prevailing winds that cross it.
    Fefonz Quan: path of what?
    Wol Euler: the prevailing winds across Australia come from regions that are historically quite bare of volcanic activity, the soil is worn out because the minerals were not replaced
    Wol Euler: there was another difference mentioned last time.
    Wol Euler: In the christian tradition, and Jewish too I believe, the world was made for us, fitted to us like a coat. We are its owners, it is ours to use as we see fit.
    Wol Euler: in the Islamic tradition, we are only the caretakers of hte world. Allah owns it, and suffers us to live on it

    death as gate to other dimensions. it is not moral to kill someone.

    Fefonz Quan: death might be just a gate, but that doesn't say it is moral or good to kill someone
    sophia Placebo: thats true wol and from their is the charity spirit in islam , what you have was given to you by the owner to use it for good
    Wol Euler: That is a good question, Fef. How would you answer it?
    sophia Placebo: no fef ofcourse it is not moral to kill other human without justification
    Fefonz Quan: why should i? i am not the defender of Allah
    Fefonz Quan: (to Wol)
    sophia Placebo: defendr of yourself
    Wol Euler: Fef, come now. Jews and Christians and Buddhists and Taoists and even Mormons die too :)
    sophia Placebo: when someone tried to kill you , islamically it is legal to defend your self
    Fefonz Quan: mmy claim was about the existance of evil in the world, myself is not the answer
    Eliza Madrigal: All religions seems to have in common suggesting a sort of 'this life in perspective to many' idea, which unfortunately leads some to take that as 'this life a *mere* one of many.
    sophia Placebo: can you explain more eliza?
    Eliza Madrigal: People justify, whatever their paradigm.
    Scathach Rhiadra: mmm, if evil is not from Allah, would you say good is also not from Allah, but creation of man as well?
    Scathach Rhiadra: like Allah is beyond both?
    sophia Placebo: fef it is how you precive that -evil- indeed in islam moral teaching , a bad person would precive it as a curse a good would precive it as a test and so they would react diffrently
    Fefonz Quan: saying evil as a test, makes us mice in a the lab of god(allah for that ), where there are more tests then results. not a nice picture
    Wol Euler: may I make an observation?
    Fefonz Quan: sure
    sophia Placebo: no scath , good and bad things that happen to human are all allah creations , but human acts are not allah creation

    "good" and "evil" are already judgements

    Wol Euler: It interests me that we are talking about "evil", which is not a fact but a judgement.
    Adams Rubble thinking of Job
    sophia Placebo: lol fef no it is not like that
    Wol Euler: We usually try to avoid judgements and look at facts here. Dropping, stopping, appreciating.
    Scathach Rhiadra: good is also a judgement Wol
    sophia Placebo: it is if you truly belive , it is for your own good
    sophia Placebo: no matter how much hard it is
    Pema Pera: you could say "opportunities to learn" if you don't like the word test, Fef
    Fefonz Quan: right Wol, but this dropping is maybe because we drop the notion of 'good, moral, gracious' creator
    Pema Pera: every word can have negative associations . . . .
    sophia Placebo: keeping optimistic and truly believing in allah merci and always looking to the good points
    Fefonz Quan: being optimistic is very good personally Sophia, i agree. believeing in merci no matter what happens, on the non-personal level, i find probematic.
    sophia Placebo: how so ?
    Fefonz Quan: as you said, allah is also the creatot of human deeds, and many of them are terrible on large scales.
    sophia Placebo: [7:43] sophia Placebo: human volcanos are human creations

    I had to leave at this point...

    Lia Rikugun: sorry everyone, i will have to leave, it was very interesting thank you!
    Wol Euler: bye lia, take care.
    Adams Rubble: bye Lia
    Lia Rikugun: see you all soon :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Lia
    sophia Placebo: thank you lia bye
    Fefonz Quan: so allah have quit responsibility oncee created man, that's the point?
    Fefonz Quan: bye Lia!
    sophia Placebo: responsibilty ?
    Fefonz Quan: i understood your self quote as saying that human creations are not allah's responsibility)
    sophia Placebo: are not allah creation
    Fefonz Quan: (same thing
    sophia Placebo: resopnsibility here seems odd
    Wol Euler: what kind of answer are you hoping to hear, Fef?
    sophia Placebo: allah take care of all his creations
    sophia Placebo: thats the meaning of he is the most mercifull
    Fefonz Quan: i am pointing to the fact, that saying that an all creator has done all, and spreads all good, contradicts with the existance of evil
    sophia Placebo: hmm
    Eliza Madrigal: this idea that God is All, yet somehow humans are not God (ie acting on their own) ...isn't that where there seems a gap in explaining for most faiths?
    Fefonz Quan: the abundant existance of it.
    Fefonz Quan: there is a gap. for faiths without god this gap vanishes
    Eliza Madrigal: The gap maybe only met transcending traditional understanding/intelligence
    Hana Furlough: or is it just that our minds in the everyday sense are not God?
    sophia Placebo: but we dont deny that there is bad things
    sophia Placebo: allah is just too
    Adams Rubble: Is the gap God, or the way we perceive people of other faqiths?
    Wol Euler: yes.
    sophia Placebo: there is punishment
    sophia Placebo: might not be evident in this life
    Fefonz Quan: could you be more specific adams?
    sophia Placebo: but our deeds has a reflection in other life
    Wol Euler: I think the gap disappears (or rather is explained) by the existence of free will.
    sophia Placebo: good or bad thats what we would find out
    Wol Euler: A child can deface a marvellous painting.
    Wol Euler: but it cannot create one
    Fefonz Quan: ok, so the evil comes from free will of man, and the sins he made (and then punished for)
    Wol Euler: yep
    sophia Placebo: and the question is fef then why allah created us in the first place ?
    Fefonz Quan: thats a reasonable answer
    Eliza Madrigal: and acting in free will with only a sliver of awareness ...?
    Wol Euler: how do "faiths without god" explain the existence of human evil?
    Resting Thor: i have to run....great discussion
    Adams Rubble: by Resting
    sophia Placebo: bye resting
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Resting :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Resting
    Pema Pera: bye Resting!
    Wol Euler: bye resting
    Fefonz Quan: they explain it as part of the world, that's all. they don't need the assumption that 'god' is all good and mercy, thus no problem to include evil in
    Adams Rubble: Fef, when we try to understand another faith, our perceptions about what is being said is clouded by the way we perceove people of that faith are acting
    Adams Rubble: the people themselves see something different
    Pema Pera: that's a very helpful angle, Adams!
    Wol Euler nods
    Pema Pera: Fefonz, the fact that you don't immediately find a framework or picture in which everything falls into place like a mathematical logical formula doesn't mean that what Sophia is saying can't be correct, as a pointer to an experiential way of opening yourself for the Universe/Reality/Being
    Fefonz Quan: just to clarify, ALL i had said here i would(and had) said to jewish and christians
    sophia Placebo: :)
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    sophia Placebo: actually these questions are in old text , but im lazy to go through them :)
    sophia Placebo: so no worries
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Pema Pera: it is fascinating that every religion has a broad spectrum of interpretation -- so much so that the differences within a religion are often larger than the differences between religions
    Wol Euler: indeed.
    Fefonz Quan: i agree
    Pema Pera: Sufis, as Sophia has pointed out, can be very close to, say, Taoists or Zen Buddhists
    Wol Euler: qv Shia sv Sunni or the decades of death in Northern Ireland
    sophia Placebo: true
    Hana Furlough: yeah i was wondering what the difference is between sufism and tantra
    Pema Pera: the problem with words in that Being/Reality has to be beyond all dichotomies, including personal vs. impersonal -- so calling ultimate reality a God is like choosing one coordinate system, and calling it Tao/Emptiness is like choosing another coordinate system -- both are valid, I would say, and both then introduce possible distortions as well, when taken too literally
    Pema Pera: personally, I prefer to learn from both
    Wol Euler nods
    Pema Pera: although I could also attack both :-)
    Fefonz Quan: yep
    SophiaSharon Larnia: nods
    Hana Furlough: particularly in the case of emptiness -- it could be interpreted as nihilism
    Eos Amaterasu: Between depth practitioneres of their traditions there is possibility of sharing experience
    Wol Euler: Adams hinted at my personal favourite explanation of human evil: that it is based on insufficient clarity of feeling and understanding.
    Fefonz Quan: ]the issue is that god is just a word, the question is what you put behind it
    Wol Euler: which ties into our progress up or down the cycles of karma
    Pema Pera: yes, Fef
    Eos Amaterasu: So how do we share what is behind it
    Fefonz Quan: there is a big difference between a transcendant god that it out there and judgeing you or creating you, and a god the is part of all, and you are part of him.
    Hana Furlough: exactly
    Wol Euler: agreed
    Eos Amaterasu: So what is transcendence?
    Pema Pera: Eos question is key: how do we share it??
    Fefonz Quan: at least we don';t ignore those differences
    Eliza Madrigal: A foundation acceptance that whatever words we use are going to fall short, and giving others that space also
    Fefonz Quan: both points of view are inersting
    Fefonz Quan: interesting*
    Pema Pera: sharing can start with trying to taste what the other says
    Pema Pera: first
    Pema Pera: before immediately confronting it on the words being used
    Pema Pera: for example, I was really touched by Sophia's answer to Hana, about how to learn more
    Scathach Rhiadra: what do you mean by 'tasting' Pema
    Fefonz Quan thinks the issue of evil is more basic than words, and it did got to the freew ill point which was also a basic issue.
    Pema Pera: can't find it so quickly, but I mean the way Sophia told Hana to just ask Allah
    Pema Pera: yes, but what do we feel / taste when we talk about free will?
    Pema Pera: just the words?
    Pema Pera: or the intellectual arguing behind it?
    Pema Pera: or also a kind of appreciation of what may be behind that, in terms of experience?
    Fefonz Quan: mostly the pointing to personal responsibility
    Pema Pera: but that pointing in a discussion often feels like confronting/accusing
    Pema Pera: and a challenge for all of us is also to report how *we* deal with it ourselves
    Scathach Rhiadra: and the experience of 'will'
    Pema Pera: to start with our own struggles
    Pema Pera: which is harder than simply confronting others with perceived inconsistencies
    Pema Pera: in their faiths/ideas
    Hana Furlough: what if we started a dialogue based on the assumption that we are all fundamentally of one essence
    Wol Euler smiles
    Pema Pera: and that there is one reality that we all share :-)
    Pema Pera: which is one of the points Sophia made
    Wol Euler: we'd have to give it a catchy name, something like "Play as Being" perhaps
    Pema Pera: hahaha
    Hana Furlough: lol nice
    Fefonz Quan: hehe
    SophiaSharon Larnia: laughs
    sophia Placebo: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: I wonder about the periodic "call to prayers", daily, in Islam re the understandings/views Sophia expressed
    Eos Amaterasu: Several tims daily, like P as B
    Pema Pera: like the 9-sec, yes :-)
    Wol Euler: because I think that there is such an assumption, and an essence, and we gather to celebrate and investigate it.
    Pema Pera: celebration is a wonderful starting point
    Hana Furlough: right nothing to do so just be grateful
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Pema Pera: we try to find ways to celebrate reality together, notwithstanding the initial differences of our formulations of our ideas
    Adams Rubble: listening with love
    Pema Pera: with the heart
    Hana Furlough: on that beautiful note, i have to go
    Pema Pera: bye Hana!
    Hana Furlough: have a wonderful day everyone
    Hana Furlough: bye~
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Hana :)
    Wol Euler: bye hana, take care.
    Fefonz Quan: bye Hana
    Adams Rubble: bye Hana
    sophia Placebo: bye hana :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: have to say that the call to prayer is one of the most beautiful sounds I have heard in the east:)
    sophia Placebo: :) have you been in the east scath ? it is indeed very peacefull mints - suddenly everyone just calm down and stop working and yelling at each other face :P
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes:)
    Wol Euler: :)
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Wol Euler: probably a very good idea even independently of prayer :)
    Wol Euler: an official "stfu and be calm" moment
    sophia Placebo: hehe yeah wol
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Fefonz Quan: :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Wol Euler: I#ve started doing something like that at work, I actually sent my boss out of the room on a timeout on THursday :)
    Adams Rubble: hehe
    Fefonz Quan: cool
    Scathach Rhiadra: ha:)
    Wol Euler: he was shocked, but he went, and calmed down, and when he came back we could solve the problem and carry on working
    Wol Euler: but the emotion before had been in thte way
    Pema Pera: well, I'll try to get some sleep, it is well past midnight here. Thank you so much, Sophia, for a wonderful presentation. I feel I have gotten more of a "taste" of your approach
    Adams Rubble: night Pema :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Night Pema
    Eos Amaterasu: 'night!
    Wol Euler: goodnight Pema, thank you. Sleep well
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes thank you sophia, and Wol:)
    Fefonz Quan: night Pema
    sophia Placebo: goodnight pema , thank you too :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Pema, I have to go too....take care all :))
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Pema, good night:)
    Pema Pera: good day most everyone else :-)
    Adams Rubble seconds Scath
    sophia Placebo: bye sophia
    Wol Euler: bye sophiasharon
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Sophiasharion
    Adams Rubble: byr Sophia
    Wol Euler: thank you, sophia, and everyone else. This was a great discussion.
    Eliza Madrigal: Sophia, Thank you very much.
    Fefonz Quan: Thanks Sophia and Wol for the discussion!
    Eliza Madrigal: And Wol, thank you!
    Wol Euler: :)
    sophia Placebo: wy ^^ hope i didnt distract anyone
    Adams Rubble: It was a wonderful presentation and discussion
    sophia Placebo: and thanks for coming , gotta leave too
    sophia Placebo: thanks adams :)
    Wol Euler: bye sophia, take care.
    Adams Rubble: bye Sophia
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Sophia:)
    Fefonz Quan: bye Sophia
    Eliza Madrigal: Distract? No, is very interesting!
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Sophia
    Eos Amaterasu: Thank you Sophia, Wol, Fef, all
    Fefonz Quan: bye Eos
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Eos:)
    Wol Euler: bye eos
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Eos )
    Eos Amaterasu: Cao chao!
    Adams Rubble: I am going to go to. bye everyone
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Adams
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Adams:)
    Wol Euler: bye adams, enjoy the weekend
    Fefonz Quan: c u adams'
    Scathach Rhiadra: I must go too, Namaste all:)
    Fefonz Quan: namaste!
    Eliza Madrigal: Namaste Scath :)
    Wol Euler: namaste
    Wol Euler: enjoy the day
    Wol Euler: well, the remains of the day :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye everyone
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: ByeYa
    Fefonz Quan: bye Yaku
    Fefonz Quan: its nice to see afull circle once in a while
    Wol Euler: indeed.
    Wol Euler: there are so many silent sessions these days, especially inthe mornings
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, especially this month with so many silent sessions. I've been without my 'morning papers'
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe
    Fefonz Quan: right, i noticed too
    Wol Euler: it#s hard to say "you! yes you! wake up early and go to PaB"
    Eliza Madrigal: hahah
    Eliza Madrigal: Summer does that. I know that by the time the early session comes around normaly I've had a few hrs to be productive already, but not in summer :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I thought questions asked today were very interesting
    Wol Euler: yse indeed.
    Eliza Madrigal: and I think it is our heart that wants to reconcile what we see with that sense of essential oneness that brings us here :)
    Fefonz Quan nods
    Wol Euler: which is in the end why people like Samuel and Kenji don't fit. Not because they argue, Fef argues too :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Wol Euler: but because they do not share that belief and starting point.
    Fefonz Quan: yes, i try to be gentle though :)
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, the intention is not the same
    Wol Euler: we make allowances for your triple handicap :)
    Fefonz Quan: ? what's the last term?
    Wol Euler: heheheheh
    Wol Euler: male, physicist and Israeli :)
    Wol Euler: all argumentative types
    Fefonz Quan: ah! hehe :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Wol Euler: and I have known a few, they were all strong believers in the value of loud and strenuous discussion
    Fefonz Quan: well pema has two of them. though he seems to transcend that much more than myself :)
    Wol Euler: physicists, I mean
    Wol Euler: he is really quite an unusual man. He has a gift for ... calmness.
    Wol Euler: well, you've met him in RL too.
    Fefonz Quan: sure. wouldn't be here otherwise :)
    Wol Euler: he is the least arrogant person I have ever met, and yet he is probably the man wiht the strongest claim to be arrogant taht I have ever met
    Fefonz Quan: adn btw, i didn't think this discussion was loud.
    Wol Euler: heheheheheh
    Wol Euler: no, really, it was fine.
    Eliza Madrigal: I didn't either Fef :)
    Fefonz Quan: talking about similarities, the first quotes Sophia gave was almost exact translations of the first two commendments.
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Fefonz Quan: were*
    Wol Euler: there is a core of basic commonsense that runs through every religion I've heard of.
    Eliza Madrigal: "Hear Oh Israel, The Lord our Gd is One?"
    Wol Euler: have you read the Koran?
    Fefonz Quan: no, didn't
    Fefonz Quan: haven't read the new testimony too :)
    Wol Euler: oh, I recommend it. (I'Ve only read it in English, obviuosly)
    Eliza Madrigal nods to Wol... there *is* an essential String of sorts
    Wol Euler: I was amazed to find that jesus and Abraham and Jakob all are found in the Koran too.
    Wol Euler: all honoured prophets, who came before Mumanad
    Wol Euler: *muhamad
    Fefonz Quan: one of the most fascinating things is how far a religion can travel from its original scriptures
    Wol Euler: well, yes, amazing and sad usually.
    Fefonz Quan: exactly
    Eliza Madrigal: I've not read it and yet in discussions I've been told this also... they are honored
    Fefonz Quan: think i should go, bye Wol, Eliza!
    Eliza Madrigal: In Kira one day I had a longish discussion with an Islamic man who talked much about everything being 'signs' ...this resonated with me as being universal and transcendent
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Fef :)
    Wol Euler: bye fef, take care, see you later.
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe Wol
    Wol Euler: I'd forgotten I was wearing that.
    Eliza Madrigal: I thought during this discussion of making you a tag that reads "Smart Cookie"...thought your questions were very well timed
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe
    Wol Euler: :)
    Wol Euler: awww, thank you.
    Wol Euler: Pema was IMing me, a little meta-conversation
    Wol Euler: he held back to let hte group run itself.
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I thought it was rather smooth....
    Eliza Madrigal: but I am a little conflicted....
    Wol Euler: mmmm?
    Eliza Madrigal: in that I think there is a place for the 'argumentative' types of discussions
    Eliza Madrigal: in light of the celebration of unity as a foundation though...
    Wol Euler: sure, they have their uses and their proper place. but it isn't here IMHO.
    Wol Euler: we shold send them to Kira :)
    Eliza Madrigal: yes perhaps that's it :)
    Wol Euler: y'know, that may be it.
    Wol Euler: the people who don't fit, like kenji and samuel, have mostly come from Kira.
    Wol Euler: not all kira's don't fit, obviously.
    Eliza Madrigal: and they are looking for the 'debate first' setting perhaps
    Wol Euler: yeo
    Wol Euler: scientists have a binary mindset. Something is either entirely correct or entirely false.
    Wol Euler: "my experience" doesn't exist for a scientist, if it is _only_ your experience, not mine and his and hers too, then it is wrong
    Wol Euler: experimentally verified :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I would think scientists would find it paralyzing to be aware of all they don't know
    Eliza Madrigal: which one can't help but run into when 'seeking'
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Wol Euler: their egos develop to protect them from that :-PPP
    Eliza Madrigal: hhe
    Eliza Madrigal: yes I suppose...plow through first, gather info, then sort
    Eliza Madrigal: hmm. I'm happy that Sophia's here...felt a bit priveleged today
    Wol Euler: yes, indeed, I think she is a great addition to the group.
    Eliza Madrigal nods...another dimension
    Wol Euler: I think I shall hve to go, I feel the need to lie down for an hour or so.
    Wol Euler: slept badly because of the storm this morning
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah... good idea then. :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks so much Wol :)
    Wol Euler: it was great to talk to you again, eliza. Take care.
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye for now :)
    Wol Euler: see you Monday at the latest ;-)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)))
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