2009.06.27 07:00 - Theme session: one and many

The Guardian for this meeting was Lia Rikugun. The comments are by Lia Rikugun.

we started welcoming each other and talkign alittle bit about the weather. 

Wol addresses the question how we should deal with someone who refuses to give permission to include the name but continues talking in PaB?

Wol Euler: before we start, I'd like to talk for a moment about something that happened during Sophia's session yesterday
Wol Euler: (I don't think she's posted the log yet)
Wol Euler: we were visited by a newcomer who refused permission to include her name and comments, but nonetheless stayed and talked loudly for ten minutes or so
Wol Euler: looking for an argument, IMHO
Wol Euler: Sophia asked her (in IM) to leave, she refused
Wol Euler: I am thinking now that Sophia and I should have encouraged her vigorously to leave, if I had known that you had asked and she refused I would probably have expelled her.
sophia Placebo: she didnt refused actually
Wol Euler: May I ask, what do we think about this situation? I'm sure it has come up before, how have others handled it?
Wol Euler: ah, ok, I misunderstood.
sophia Placebo: but stayed for a while after she said she would leave :)
sophia Placebo: then she left
sophia Placebo: but if i didnt asked her she would gonna stay even longer :)
Scathach Rhiadra: mmm, there is nothing wrong with ejecting people if needed, we shouldn't be afraid to to so
sophia Placebo: i was thinking how i would can edit that log
Eliza Madrigal: Eos had several grievers one night. We muted and ejected best we could... but they were energized by one another.

cin07 joins us, it's his first time in Second Life ;) welcome!

sophia Placebo: hi cin07
Cin07 Carpaccio: Its my first time and im still learning how it works
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Cin :)
Nymf Hathaway: Than you will have a great time exploring Cin07
Wol Euler: welcome to SL, cin.
SophiaSharon Larnia: HI Cin
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Cin07
Lia Rikugun: http://playasbeing.wik.is/
Pema Pera: surprisingly, these kind of situations have occurred rather rarely, though one might expect it to happen often, given the nature of SL and the kind of people one sometimes encounters -- it seems that you did the right thing, Sophia and Wol.
Lia Rikugun: this is our wiki
Cin07 Carpaccio: Hello everyone........How do you sit down
Cin07 Carpaccio: ???/
Lia Rikugun: right click on the cussion
Wol Euler: hello hana
Lia Rikugun: and then click sit down ;)
sophia Placebo: hi hana
Adams Rubble: Hello Hana
Nymf Hathaway: Hello Hana
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Hana
Cin07 Carpaccio: Oh thanks
Pema Pera: Hi Cino and Hana!
Hana Furlough: hello everyone~
Lia Rikugun: cin07 we are recording the chat log, is this ok with you?
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Hana :))
Cin07 Carpaccio: sure
Lia Rikugun: i will send you some introduction over IM
Nymf Hathaway: Hello Yakuzza
Adams Rubble: Hello Yakuzza
sophia Placebo: hi yak
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello yakuzza
Eliza Madrigal: HiYa:)
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
Wol Euler holds out a towel
Hana Furlough: hello yakuzza
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
Pema Pera: Sophia, as for editing, it is perfectly fine to leave out the whole unpleasant episode, and write a brief comment to that extent, mentioning that somebody interfered who did not want to be named, and leave it at that
sophia Placebo: ok , can i tell it like a story ?
Pema Pera: sure!
Wol Euler smiles
sophia Placebo: lovely
Pema Pera: And your theme session about One and Many is now attracting many avatars :-)
sophia Placebo: :)
Wol Euler: Cin, I will give you a notecard with a discussion of what happened last time, to bring you up to date

Pema Pera: Shall we start as usual, having only Sophia and Wol talk for a while, and then opening it to the whole group?
Adams Rubble: Storm can put in bleachers
Cin07 Carpaccio: ok ;)
sophia Placebo: sure
Wol Euler: you first :)
sophia Placebo: :) ok , i had 3 points , so if i distracted you stop me
Cin07 Carpaccio: Well i have to leave..see you guys later:)
sophia Placebo: bye cin
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Cin
Lia Rikugun: byebye cin07 nice to meet you
Wol Euler: bye Cin, take care
Hana Furlough: bye cin

sophia introduces the 4 verses of the devotion chapter

1rst part: He is Allah, the One!

sophia Placebo: i'll start with the devoution chapter , we read this chapter almost in all prayers , it is also called the tawheed or oneness
sophia Placebo: it is only 4 verses
sophia Placebo: Say: He is Allah, the One! Allah, the eternally Besought of all! He begetteth not nor was begotten And there is none comparable unto Him. The devotion chapter or the oneness chapter
sophia Placebo: the explanation : i know it is old english
sophia Placebo: say allah the one he is the only god and no god but him
sophia Placebo: the second verse is : allah o assamd : samad has 2 meaning and both are true and explained in the 2 coming verses
sophia Placebo: samad means the one that everything need him and seek him for help and samad meand the one without parts
sophia Placebo: the third verse say he has no offspring nor he is one himself for the offspring is a need of us to survive as a species the many of us the better and as the as the root needs the branches so the branches needs the roots but allah is in need of no one and he is not into parts
sophia Placebo: the fourth one : he has no one like him which means there is no other god or anything that is may not need allah as if he on the same level with him
sophia Placebo: this is the first point
sophia Placebo: shall i continoue?
Wol Euler: please :)
Wol Euler: or were you done?

sophia Placebo: oneness of universe
sophia Placebo: one of the ways that quran explain this , is the oness of creation as a sign of oneness of creator
sophia Placebo: that is that all this universe all what human know of it so far appears to be one thing ,same lows same materials and all in all in harmoney
sophia Placebo: thats how we can speculate about past and future and thats why we trust science because we dont expect a super power here to change the laws and super powers there to give diffrent results
sophia Placebo: even if you say that it was all a coinsedance : there was no coincedanse that make some laws here and another taht makes some other laws and materials there
sophia Placebo: thats what we call oneness of creation means that all universe appears like one big creation
sophia Placebo: here is some quran verses :
sophia Placebo: If there were therein gods beside Allah, then verily both (the heavens and the earth) had been disordered. Glorified be Allah, the Lord of the Throne, from all that they ascribe (unto Him).
sophia Placebo: hi fef
Fefonz Quan: (Hi all!)
sophia Placebo: Who hath created seven heavens in harmony. Thou (Muhammad) canst see no fault in the Beneficent One's creation; then look again: Canst thou see any rifts?
Wol Euler waves
sophia Placebo: end of part 2
Lia Rikugun: helllo resting
Resting Thor: hi!

sophia Placebo: 3rd part is very brief since im not a sufi though i tried to read about it more
sophia Placebo: wihdatal wojoud : oneness of being this is a sufi belife that they belive that we are all but a presence or revelations to allah not as signs to his glory but as true revelations
sophia Placebo: thats it
Wol Euler nods thoughtfully. Thank you, Sophia.
Eos Amaterasu: Can you say more about that last part?
sophia Placebo: oneness of being ?
Eos Amaterasu: "we are all but a presence or revelations to allah not as signs to his glory but as true revelations"
sophia Placebo: yes thats sufi thoughts that allah is the wojoud -being-
Eos Amaterasu: Ah! got it
Wol Euler: I think I've got it :)
Wol Euler: this relates to the Appearance of Being, doesn't it? we as beings (small b) are not merely pointers to the greater Being but actual, existing, instances of it
Hana Furlough: can i ask what you mean by (true) revelations?
sophia Placebo: hmm hana as if you see Allah with your eyes
sophia Placebo: not only your heart or mind
Hana Furlough: wow this is interesting
Wol Euler: there was something said about this in the first session, that in the Islamic view the entire world is a sign of Allah, everything we see is Allah (can't remember the words Sophia used)

Resting Thor: so perceiving the divine in all our perceptions?
sophia Placebo: yes wol but other islamic sects say that we can see with our hearts through the creation that there is a creator
sophia Placebo: sufis say that we actually dont see creation but creator
Wol Euler: ah, ok, ty.
Wol Euler: so the answer to Resting would be "yes"? :)
sophia Placebo: yes the answer is yes
sophia Placebo: except we cant see allah with eyes nor we can imagine him how he is
sophia Placebo: for if we can do that then thats mean that we can define him
Resting Thor: so....in practice...i would have the thought that i am hearing/seeing/smelling/tasting Allah?
Wol Euler: interesting.
sophia Placebo: no resting
Wol Euler: the evidence of Him, perhaps?
sophia Placebo: seeing hearing smelling testing his glory will wisdome and mercy
sophia Placebo: yes wol
Fefonz Quan: so the evidence is the world, is it?
sophia Placebo: or your self
Wol Euler: that which we perceive, and the fact that we -can- perceive it.
Hana Furlough: so how do we do this?
Resting Thor: i understand your point...thanks!
sophia Placebo: do what hana ?
Fefonz Quan: we percieve also lots of very bad and vicious things, are they part of the evidence too?
Hana Furlough: oh i'm wondering how we access allash
sophia Placebo: hmm yes fef
sophia Placebo: hana just ask him any where any time
Fefonz Quan: so allah is also the source of evil?
Wol Euler snorts.
sophia Placebo: he knows what is in your heart and your thoughts and intentions
sophia Placebo: no fef , allah creats no evil
Wol Euler: Sophia, the traditional christian way out of this dilemma is to say that God gave us free will; He told us t he difference between right and wrong but left it open to us to choose between them
Fefonz Quan: but evil is part of the world
Wol Euler: is there a parallel in Islam to this?

sophia Placebo: bad things that happen to poeple , in islam we precived them as tests to our patient
Resting Thor: so not evil, ... but seeing hearing smelling testing his glory will wisdome and mercy as painful and bad
sophia Placebo: wol in islam the human is btw free will and eterminasim
sophia Placebo: it is something in btw
Fefonz Quan: Wol, that's the jewish claim too
sophia Placebo: you are given the means - brains senses prophets - to know the right things but you are free to do them or not
Wol Euler: it seems pretty sound to me :) Every parent would recognize their children in it.

sophia Placebo: bye evil you mean volcanos fef?
Eos Amaterasu: !?!
Fefonz Quan: nature culcanos and human vulcanos.
sophia Placebo: human volcanos are human creations
sophia Placebo: natural disasters are tests
Fefonz Quan: so lets talk about nature.
Fefonz Quan: well, some of the victims don't have the second chance to pass it...
sophia Placebo: :) allah knows about them , he is most mercefull
Wol Euler: well, a geologist would say that volcanoes are only locally bad :) On a planetary scale they are very good indeed. They spread ash and chemical nutrients over an enormous area
sophia Placebo: this is not the only life fef
Adams Rubble: Volcanoes are forces that affect much more than human beings
sophia Placebo: death is just a gate to other dimensions
Wol Euler: the difference in fertility between Australia and the rest of the world is due to the lack of volcanoes in the path of thte prevailing winds that cross it.
Fefonz Quan: path of what?
Wol Euler: the prevailing winds across Australia come from regions that are historically quite bare of volcanic activity, the soil is worn out because the minerals were not replaced
Wol Euler: there was another difference mentioned last time.
Wol Euler: In the christian tradition, and Jewish too I believe, the world was made for us, fitted to us like a coat. We are its owners, it is ours to use as we see fit.
Wol Euler: in the Islamic tradition, we are only the caretakers of hte world. Allah owns it, and suffers us to live on it

Fefonz Quan: death might be just a gate, but that doesn't say it is moral or good to kill someone
sophia Placebo: thats true wol and from their is the charity spirit in islam , what you have was given to you by the owner to use it for good
Wol Euler: That is a good question, Fef. How would you answer it?
sophia Placebo: no fef ofcourse it is not moral to kill other human without justification
Fefonz Quan: why should i? i am not the defender of Allah
Fefonz Quan: (to Wol)
sophia Placebo: defendr of yourself
Wol Euler: Fef, come now. Jews and Christians and Buddhists and Taoists and even Mormons die too :)
sophia Placebo: when someone tried to kill you , islamically it is legal to defend your self
Fefonz Quan: mmy claim was about the existance of evil in the world, myself is not the answer
Eliza Madrigal: All religions seems to have in common suggesting a sort of 'this life in perspective to many' idea, which unfortunately leads some to take that as 'this life a *mere* one of many.
sophia Placebo: can you explain more eliza?
Eliza Madrigal: People justify, whatever their paradigm.
Scathach Rhiadra: mmm, if evil is not from Allah, would you say good is also not from Allah, but creation of man as well?
Scathach Rhiadra: like Allah is beyond both?
sophia Placebo: fef it is how you precive that -evil- indeed in islam moral teaching , a bad person would precive it as a curse a good would precive it as a test and so they would react diffrently
Fefonz Quan: saying evil as a test, makes us mice in a the lab of god(allah for that ), where there are more tests then results. not a nice picture
Wol Euler: may I make an observation?
Fefonz Quan: sure
sophia Placebo: no scath , good and bad things that happen to human are all allah creations , but human acts are not allah creation

Wol Euler: It interests me that we are talking about "evil", which is not a fact but a judgement.
Adams Rubble thinking of Job
sophia Placebo: lol fef no it is not like that
Wol Euler: We usually try to avoid judgements and look at facts here. Dropping, stopping, appreciating.
Scathach Rhiadra: good is also a judgement Wol
sophia Placebo: it is if you truly belive , it is for your own good
sophia Placebo: no matter how much hard it is
Pema Pera: you could say "opportunities to learn" if you don't like the word test, Fef
Fefonz Quan: right Wol, but this dropping is maybe because we drop the notion of 'good, moral, gracious' creator
Pema Pera: every word can have negative associations . . . .
sophia Placebo: keeping optimistic and truly believing in allah merci and always looking to the good points
Fefonz Quan: being optimistic is very good personally Sophia, i agree. believeing in merci no matter what happens, on the non-personal level, i find probematic.
sophia Placebo: how so ?
Fefonz Quan: as you said, allah is also the creatot of human deeds, and many of them are terrible on large scales.
sophia Placebo: [7:43] sophia Placebo: human volcanos are human creations

Lia Rikugun: sorry everyone, i will have to leave, it was very interesting thank you!
Wol Euler: bye lia, take care.
Adams Rubble: bye Lia
Lia Rikugun: see you all soon :)
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Lia
sophia Placebo: thank you lia bye
Fefonz Quan: so allah have quit responsibility oncee created man, that's the point?
Fefonz Quan: bye Lia!
sophia Placebo: responsibilty ?
Fefonz Quan: i understood your self quote as saying that human creations are not allah's responsibility)
sophia Placebo: are not allah creation
Fefonz Quan: (same thing
sophia Placebo: resopnsibility here seems odd
Wol Euler: what kind of answer are you hoping to hear, Fef?
sophia Placebo: allah take care of all his creations
sophia Placebo: thats the meaning of he is the most mercifull
Fefonz Quan: i am pointing to the fact, that saying that an all creator has done all, and spreads all good, contradicts with the existance of evil
sophia Placebo: hmm
Eliza Madrigal: this idea that God is All, yet somehow humans are not God (ie acting on their own) ...isn't that where there seems a gap in explaining for most faiths?
Fefonz Quan: the abundant existance of it.
Fefonz Quan: there is a gap. for faiths without god this gap vanishes
Eliza Madrigal: The gap maybe only met transcending traditional understanding/intelligence
Hana Furlough: or is it just that our minds in the everyday sense are not God?
sophia Placebo: but we dont deny that there is bad things
sophia Placebo: allah is just too
Adams Rubble: Is the gap God, or the way we perceive people of other faqiths?
Wol Euler: yes.
sophia Placebo: there is punishment
sophia Placebo: might not be evident in this life
Fefonz Quan: could you be more specific adams?
sophia Placebo: but our deeds has a reflection in other life
Wol Euler: I think the gap disappears (or rather is explained) by the existence of free will.
sophia Placebo: good or bad thats what we would find out
Wol Euler: A child can deface a marvellous painting.
Wol Euler: but it cannot create one
Fefonz Quan: ok, so the evil comes from free will of man, and the sins he made (and then punished for)
Wol Euler: yep
sophia Placebo: and the question is fef then why allah created us in the first place ?
Fefonz Quan: thats a reasonable answer
Eliza Madrigal: and acting in free will with only a sliver of awareness ...?
Wol Euler: how do "faiths without god" explain the existence of human evil?
Resting Thor: i have to run....great discussion
Adams Rubble: by Resting
sophia Placebo: bye resting
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Resting :)
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Resting
Pema Pera: bye Resting!
Wol Euler: bye resting
Fefonz Quan: they explain it as part of the world, that's all. they don't need the assumption that 'god' is all good and mercy, thus no problem to include evil in
Adams Rubble: Fef, when we try to understand another faith, our perceptions about what is being said is clouded by the way we perceove people of that faith are acting
Adams Rubble: the people themselves see something different
Pema Pera: that's a very helpful angle, Adams!
Wol Euler nods
Pema Pera: Fefonz, the fact that you don't immediately find a framework or picture in which everything falls into place like a mathematical logical formula doesn't mean that what Sophia is saying can't be correct, as a pointer to an experiential way of opening yourself for the Universe/Reality/Being
Fefonz Quan: just to clarify, ALL i had said here i would(and had) said to jewish and christians
sophia Placebo: :)
Scathach Rhiadra nods
sophia Placebo: actually these questions are in old text , but im lazy to go through them :)
sophia Placebo: so no worries
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Pema Pera: it is fascinating that every religion has a broad spectrum of interpretation -- so much so that the differences within a religion are often larger than the differences between religions
Wol Euler: indeed.
Fefonz Quan: i agree
Pema Pera: Sufis, as Sophia has pointed out, can be very close to, say, Taoists or Zen Buddhists
Wol Euler: qv Shia sv Sunni or the decades of death in Northern Ireland
sophia Placebo: true
Hana Furlough: yeah i was wondering what the difference is between sufism and tantra
Pema Pera: the problem with words in that Being/Reality has to be beyond all dichotomies, including personal vs. impersonal -- so calling ultimate reality a God is like choosing one coordinate system, and calling it Tao/Emptiness is like choosing another coordinate system -- both are valid, I would say, and both then introduce possible distortions as well, when taken too literally
Pema Pera: personally, I prefer to learn from both
Wol Euler nods
Pema Pera: although I could also attack both :-)
Fefonz Quan: yep
SophiaSharon Larnia: nods
Hana Furlough: particularly in the case of emptiness -- it could be interpreted as nihilism
Eos Amaterasu: Between depth practitioneres of their traditions there is possibility of sharing experience
Wol Euler: Adams hinted at my personal favourite explanation of human evil: that it is based on insufficient clarity of feeling and understanding.
Fefonz Quan: ]the issue is that god is just a word, the question is what you put behind it
Wol Euler: which ties into our progress up or down the cycles of karma
Pema Pera: yes, Fef
Eos Amaterasu: So how do we share what is behind it
Fefonz Quan: there is a big difference between a transcendant god that it out there and judgeing you or creating you, and a god the is part of all, and you are part of him.
Hana Furlough: exactly
Wol Euler: agreed
Eos Amaterasu: So what is transcendence?
Pema Pera: Eos question is key: how do we share it??
Fefonz Quan: at least we don';t ignore those differences
Eliza Madrigal: A foundation acceptance that whatever words we use are going to fall short, and giving others that space also
Fefonz Quan: both points of view are inersting
Fefonz Quan: interesting*
Pema Pera: sharing can start with trying to taste what the other says
Pema Pera: first
Pema Pera: before immediately confronting it on the words being used
Pema Pera: for example, I was really touched by Sophia's answer to Hana, about how to learn more
Scathach Rhiadra: what do you mean by 'tasting' Pema
Fefonz Quan thinks the issue of evil is more basic than words, and it did got to the freew ill point which was also a basic issue.
Pema Pera: can't find it so quickly, but I mean the way Sophia told Hana to just ask Allah
Pema Pera: yes, but what do we feel / taste when we talk about free will?
Pema Pera: just the words?
Pema Pera: or the intellectual arguing behind it?
Pema Pera: or also a kind of appreciation of what may be behind that, in terms of experience?
Fefonz Quan: mostly the pointing to personal responsibility
Pema Pera: but that pointing in a discussion often feels like confronting/accusing
Pema Pera: and a challenge for all of us is also to report how *we* deal with it ourselves
Scathach Rhiadra: and the experience of 'will'
Pema Pera: to start with our own struggles
Pema Pera: which is harder than simply confronting others with perceived inconsistencies
Pema Pera: in their faiths/ideas
Hana Furlough: what if we started a dialogue based on the assumption that we are all fundamentally of one essence
Wol Euler smiles
Pema Pera: and that there is one reality that we all share :-)
Pema Pera: which is one of the points Sophia made
Wol Euler: we'd have to give it a catchy name, something like "Play as Being" perhaps
Pema Pera: hahaha
Hana Furlough: lol nice
Fefonz Quan: hehe
SophiaSharon Larnia: laughs
sophia Placebo: :)
Eos Amaterasu: I wonder about the periodic "call to prayers", daily, in Islam re the understandings/views Sophia expressed
Eos Amaterasu: Several tims daily, like P as B
Pema Pera: like the 9-sec, yes :-)
Wol Euler: because I think that there is such an assumption, and an essence, and we gather to celebrate and investigate it.
Pema Pera: celebration is a wonderful starting point
Hana Furlough: right nothing to do so just be grateful
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
Pema Pera: we try to find ways to celebrate reality together, notwithstanding the initial differences of our formulations of our ideas
Adams Rubble: listening with love
Pema Pera: with the heart
Hana Furlough: on that beautiful note, i have to go
Pema Pera: bye Hana!
Hana Furlough: have a wonderful day everyone
Hana Furlough: bye~
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Hana :)
Wol Euler: bye hana, take care.
Fefonz Quan: bye Hana
Adams Rubble: bye Hana
sophia Placebo: bye hana :)
Scathach Rhiadra: have to say that the call to prayer is one of the most beautiful sounds I have heard in the east:)
sophia Placebo: :) have you been in the east scath ? it is indeed very peacefull mints - suddenly everyone just calm down and stop working and yelling at each other face :P
Scathach Rhiadra: yes:)
Wol Euler: :)
Adams Rubble: :)
Wol Euler: probably a very good idea even independently of prayer :)
Wol Euler: an official "stfu and be calm" moment
sophia Placebo: hehe yeah wol
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
Fefonz Quan: :)
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
Wol Euler: I#ve started doing something like that at work, I actually sent my boss out of the room on a timeout on THursday :)
Adams Rubble: hehe
Fefonz Quan: cool
Scathach Rhiadra: ha:)
Wol Euler: he was shocked, but he went, and calmed down, and when he came back we could solve the problem and carry on working
Wol Euler: but the emotion before had been in thte way
Pema Pera: well, I'll try to get some sleep, it is well past midnight here. Thank you so much, Sophia, for a wonderful presentation. I feel I have gotten more of a "taste" of your approach
Adams Rubble: night Pema :)
Eliza Madrigal: Night Pema
Eos Amaterasu: 'night!
Wol Euler: goodnight Pema, thank you. Sleep well
Scathach Rhiadra: yes thank you sophia, and Wol:)
Fefonz Quan: night Pema
sophia Placebo: goodnight pema , thank you too :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Pema, I have to go too....take care all :))
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Pema, good night:)
Pema Pera: good day most everyone else :-)
Adams Rubble seconds Scath
sophia Placebo: bye sophia
Wol Euler: bye sophiasharon
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Sophiasharion
Adams Rubble: byr Sophia
Wol Euler: thank you, sophia, and everyone else. This was a great discussion.
Eliza Madrigal: Sophia, Thank you very much.
Fefonz Quan: Thanks Sophia and Wol for the discussion!
Eliza Madrigal: And Wol, thank you!
Wol Euler: :)
sophia Placebo: wy ^^ hope i didnt distract anyone
Adams Rubble: It was a wonderful presentation and discussion
sophia Placebo: and thanks for coming , gotta leave too
sophia Placebo: thanks adams :)
Wol Euler: bye sophia, take care.
Adams Rubble: bye Sophia
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Sophia:)
Fefonz Quan: bye Sophia
Eliza Madrigal: Distract? No, is very interesting!
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Sophia
Eos Amaterasu: Thank you Sophia, Wol, Fef, all
Fefonz Quan: bye Eos
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Eos:)
Wol Euler: bye eos
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Eos )
Eos Amaterasu: Cao chao!
Adams Rubble: I am going to go to. bye everyone
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Adams
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Adams:)
Wol Euler: bye adams, enjoy the weekend
Fefonz Quan: c u adams'
Scathach Rhiadra: I must go too, Namaste all:)
Fefonz Quan: namaste!
Eliza Madrigal: Namaste Scath :)
Wol Euler: namaste
Wol Euler: enjoy the day
Wol Euler: well, the remains of the day :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye everyone
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Eliza Madrigal: ByeYa
Fefonz Quan: bye Yaku
Fefonz Quan: its nice to see afull circle once in a while
Wol Euler: indeed.
Wol Euler: there are so many silent sessions these days, especially inthe mornings
Eliza Madrigal: yes, especially this month with so many silent sessions. I've been without my 'morning papers'
Eliza Madrigal: hehe
Fefonz Quan: right, i noticed too
Wol Euler: it#s hard to say "you! yes you! wake up early and go to PaB"
Eliza Madrigal: hahah
Eliza Madrigal: Summer does that. I know that by the time the early session comes around normaly I've had a few hrs to be productive already, but not in summer :)
Eliza Madrigal: I thought questions asked today were very interesting
Wol Euler: yse indeed.
Eliza Madrigal: and I think it is our heart that wants to reconcile what we see with that sense of essential oneness that brings us here :)
Fefonz Quan nods
Wol Euler: which is in the end why people like Samuel and Kenji don't fit. Not because they argue, Fef argues too :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Wol Euler: but because they do not share that belief and starting point.
Fefonz Quan: yes, i try to be gentle though :)
Eliza Madrigal: yes, the intention is not the same
Wol Euler: we make allowances for your triple handicap :)
Fefonz Quan: ? what's the last term?
Wol Euler: heheheheh
Wol Euler: male, physicist and Israeli :)
Wol Euler: all argumentative types
Fefonz Quan: ah! hehe :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Wol Euler: and I have known a few, they were all strong believers in the value of loud and strenuous discussion
Fefonz Quan: well pema has two of them. though he seems to transcend that much more than myself :)
Wol Euler: physicists, I mean
Wol Euler: he is really quite an unusual man. He has a gift for ... calmness.
Wol Euler: well, you've met him in RL too.
Fefonz Quan: sure. wouldn't be here otherwise :)
Wol Euler: he is the least arrogant person I have ever met, and yet he is probably the man wiht the strongest claim to be arrogant taht I have ever met
Fefonz Quan: adn btw, i didn't think this discussion was loud.
Wol Euler: heheheheheh
Wol Euler: no, really, it was fine.
Eliza Madrigal: I didn't either Fef :)
Fefonz Quan: talking about similarities, the first quotes Sophia gave was almost exact translations of the first two commendments.
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Fefonz Quan: were*
Wol Euler: there is a core of basic commonsense that runs through every religion I've heard of.
Eliza Madrigal: "Hear Oh Israel, The Lord our Gd is One?"
Wol Euler: have you read the Koran?
Fefonz Quan: no, didn't
Fefonz Quan: haven't read the new testimony too :)
Wol Euler: oh, I recommend it. (I'Ve only read it in English, obviuosly)
Eliza Madrigal nods to Wol... there *is* an essential String of sorts
Wol Euler: I was amazed to find that jesus and Abraham and Jakob all are found in the Koran too.
Wol Euler: all honoured prophets, who came before Mumanad
Wol Euler: *muhamad
Fefonz Quan: one of the most fascinating things is how far a religion can travel from its original scriptures
Wol Euler: well, yes, amazing and sad usually.
Fefonz Quan: exactly
Eliza Madrigal: I've not read it and yet in discussions I've been told this also... they are honored
Fefonz Quan: think i should go, bye Wol, Eliza!
Eliza Madrigal: In Kira one day I had a longish discussion with an Islamic man who talked much about everything being 'signs' ...this resonated with me as being universal and transcendent
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Fef :)
Wol Euler: bye fef, take care, see you later.
Eliza Madrigal: hehe Wol
Wol Euler: I'd forgotten I was wearing that.
Eliza Madrigal: I thought during this discussion of making you a tag that reads "Smart Cookie"...thought your questions were very well timed
Eliza Madrigal: hehe
Wol Euler: :)
Wol Euler: awww, thank you.
Wol Euler: Pema was IMing me, a little meta-conversation
Wol Euler: he held back to let hte group run itself.
Eliza Madrigal: Ah :)
Eliza Madrigal: I thought it was rather smooth....
Eliza Madrigal: but I am a little conflicted....
Wol Euler: mmmm?
Eliza Madrigal: in that I think there is a place for the 'argumentative' types of discussions
Eliza Madrigal: in light of the celebration of unity as a foundation though...
Wol Euler: sure, they have their uses and their proper place. but it isn't here IMHO.
Wol Euler: we shold send them to Kira :)
Eliza Madrigal: yes perhaps that's it :)
Wol Euler: y'know, that may be it.
Wol Euler: the people who don't fit, like kenji and samuel, have mostly come from Kira.
Wol Euler: not all kira's don't fit, obviously.
Eliza Madrigal: and they are looking for the 'debate first' setting perhaps
Wol Euler: yeo
Wol Euler: scientists have a binary mindset. Something is either entirely correct or entirely false.
Wol Euler: "my experience" doesn't exist for a scientist, if it is _only_ your experience, not mine and his and hers too, then it is wrong
Wol Euler: experimentally verified :)
Eliza Madrigal: I would think scientists would find it paralyzing to be aware of all they don't know
Eliza Madrigal: which one can't help but run into when 'seeking'
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Wol Euler: their egos develop to protect them from that :-PPP
Eliza Madrigal: hhe
Eliza Madrigal: yes I suppose...plow through first, gather info, then sort
Eliza Madrigal: hmm. I'm happy that Sophia's here...felt a bit priveleged today
Wol Euler: yes, indeed, I think she is a great addition to the group.
Eliza Madrigal nods...another dimension
Wol Euler: I think I shall hve to go, I feel the need to lie down for an hour or so.
Wol Euler: slept badly because of the storm this morning
Eliza Madrigal: Ah... good idea then. :)
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks so much Wol :)
Wol Euler: it was great to talk to you again, eliza. Take care.
Eliza Madrigal: Bye for now :)
Wol Euler: see you Monday at the latest ;-)
Eliza Madrigal: :)))