2009.08.03 07:00 - Wish Upon a Star

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    Twinkle Twinkle, Kira Kira ...


    Kallie Kira: hi Doug :)
    doug Sosa: morning!
    doug Sosa: been a while, have we met?
    Kallie Kira: mmmm, yes roundabouts, you know my sister Cal :)
    doug Sosa: ah, ok. the mystery of "know".
    Kallie Kira: sure, :) well, we did have RL dinner once so a little more "know" in the mix :)
    doug Sosa: that you and this may not look alike.
    Kallie Kira: close but of course, not the same
    Kallie Kira: hi Nymf :)
    Nymf Hathaway: Hello you two :) Kallie long time :)
    doug Sosa: oor never :)
    Kallie Kira: yes! a while! nice to see you again :)
    Nymf Hathaway: Yes sure is :)
    Kallie Kira: I was just telling Doug about my sister Caledonia to make a connection back to the beginning of PaB :)
    Nymf Hathaway: Interesting :))
    Kallie Kira: let's scoot up Doug, the symmetry is strange :)
    Nymf Hathaway: smiles
    Kallie Kira: hi Pema :)
    Nymf Hathaway: Hello Pema :)
    doug Sosa: i still recall fondly the old pavillion, semed more intimate, flexible. than the walled pond.
    Pema Pera: Good morning!
    doug Sosa: ah, behind the fountain.
    Kallie Kira: yes, we've met at a few good places haven't we?


    doug Sosa: ah, wishes..
    Kallie Kira: if wishes were fishes we'd all be fed
    Kallie Kira: if wishes were horses we'd all ride
    Pema Pera: :)
    Nymf Hathaway: :)))
    Kallie Kira: any burning topic today? :)
    doug Sosa: we would learn not to wish.
    Pema Pera: dropping wishes is a great way to find freedom . . . .
    Pema Pera: . . . and to appreciate what is thrown your way anyway, every day
    Kallie Kira: are you suggesting they are mutually exclusive?
    Kallie Kira: (not arguing, asking)
    doug Sosa: i was writing about that this morning. If we chose voluntary simplicity, it makes the things we didn't buy cheaper for the rich.
    Pema Pera: like your account, Kallie, a week or so ago, in the email group, of letting everything go -- that would be hard to wish for, I guess it just happened.
    Nymf Hathaway: hehehhe Doug
    Pema Pera: not mutually exclusive, but wishes are like clouds, tending to obscure the sky
    Pema Pera: too many wishes may obscure the sky altogether :)
    Kallie Kira: true Pema, that example was a "what's so", not a wish


    doug Sosa: Is there a place for wishes?
    Pema Pera: interesting question . . .
    Pema Pera: like you have rethorical questions -- perhaps rethorical wishes?
    doug Sosa: if one species retreats, another will take its place. Passivity can be abdication.
    Pema Pera: as another way to make a point, perhaps even to express appreciation?
    Pema Pera: oh, Doug, no wishes doesn't mean passivity!
    Kallie Kira: or wishes for humanity, the planet... like, yes, like in appreciation of what those things are
    Pema Pera: as little as wu-wei means passivity
    Pema Pera: rather humming along quiet activity!
    doug Sosa: yet in wu wei it does get done.
    Pema Pera: without growling, without friction, without noise
    Pema Pera: perhaps the opposite of wishing is responding -- responding to what is at hand, in an alive and natural way
    Kallie Kira: lol, sounds like a perfect karmic machine :)
    Pema Pera: hahaha
    Pema Pera: from boom to zoom
    Pema Pera: zooming along
    Kallie Kira: in 60 seconds flat :)
    doug Sosa: but very organic. The question is, for us prostheticalll ehanced, such as second life, "what is at hand?"
    Kallie Kira: kind of a bender isn't it Doug? :)


    Pema Pera: Hi Jard, come join us!
    Nymf Hathaway: Hello Jard :)
    Jard Ceres: hii ^--^
    Kallie Kira: hi Jard :)
    Kallie Kira: what a great av, like a surfer dragon or something :)
    Jard Ceres: surfer?
    Kallie Kira: have you come here before?
    Jard Ceres: first time here here
    doug Sosa: welcome
    Jard Ceres: thank you
    Nymf Hathaway: Really beautiful avi :)
    Kallie Kira: mmm, k ... this is the play as being discussion group, we are exploring the nature of reality through a type of micro meditation
    Kallie Kira: the sessions are recorded to a chat log and posted on the web, may we include your comments?
    doug Sosa: a surfer school for surfing mostly invisible waves
    Pema Pera: http://playasbeing.wik.is/ is our blog
    Jard Ceres: can i see the spot where it's all going to be posted?
    Kallie Kira: you can find info at http://playasbeing.wik.is
    Kallie Kira: lol, faster than I on the typing Pema :)
    Pema Pera: :)
    Pema Pera: we get together four times every day -- at 1 am 7 am 1 pm 7 pm
    Pema Pera: not all of us, of course, whoever has time
    Kallie Kira: yes, we meet to discuss our experiences or whatever other related topic may arise
    Pema Pera: among a group of about 50 or so regulars
    doug Sosa: breakfast, lunch, dinner times.. so it is the best way to lose weight of a kind while gaining weight of another.
    Jard Ceres: what i could gather so far sounds interesting. i consent to my comments being published.
    Kallie Kira: lol.... I can see it now on Oprah (Okra)..... the 9Sec Weight Plan :)
    Pema Pera: thanks, Jard!
    Kallie Kira: ok, thx Jard :)


    Pema Pera: we were just talking about wishes
    Pema Pera: how nice it is to live without wishes and just appreciate everything that comes our way
    Pema Pera: (alles schaetzen was es gibt, so wie es erscheint)
    Kallie Kira: yes, the question arose also, is there a place for wishes?
    Pema Pera: that was Doug, and Kallie's response: for a better treatment of the environment, for example
    Pema Pera: but perhaps rather than wishing for that, doing something might be a better response :-)
    Kallie Kira: lol, or maybe just an ice cream sundae :)
    Pema Pera: haha, yes
    Pema Pera: appreciating the possibility of eating ice cream sundae
    Pema Pera likes the A word :)
    Kallie Kira: yes no wish required to appreciate what appears .... perhaps wishes are for potential appreciation?
    doug Sosa: in my neighborhood, when the foxes turned vegetarian, the rabbits multiplied and ate all the vegetables.
    Pema Pera: ?
    Kallie Kira: meaning that there was an imbalance Doug?
    Pema Pera: the Bay Area sure is a weird place
    Kallie Kira: lol, for all the right reasons :)
    Kallie Kira: mostly


    Pema Pera: (as for wishes, wishes come with their opposites, fear/dislike, like two sides of a stick -- the best recipe for dropping fear is dropping wishes, so you can drop the whole stick)
    Kallie Kira: good point .... perhaps they sometimes come from scarcity also
    Kallie Kira: hmmm, perhaps fear/dislike is a better fit
    doug Sosa: i'd love to see a guarannteed annual wage, enough to live on simply, and see what happens..
    Kallie Kira: so that everyone could live creatively, without need or want of basics?
    Kallie Kira: were you a founder of The Farm Doug? ha ha
    doug Sosa: but some would want more, and work for it, thus providing the basics or all.
    doug Sosa: no but i been there.
    Pema Pera: that would be a great experiment! Start with a negative tax baseline, so you get money to start with, and pay tax over what you earn
    Kallie Kira: lol, I knew it
    Pema Pera: The Farm?
    Kallie Kira: a high profile commune experiment :)
    Kallie Kira: Zorn was there
    Kallie Kira: my RL buddy
    Nymf Hathaway: Is more interested in http://www.thevenusproject.com/ very curious how it develops in the future
    Kallie Kira: he didn't stay long, turned out it was a pretty closed community
    doug Sosa: http://www.thefarmcommunity.com/
    Nymf Hathaway: Looking :)
    doug Sosa: venus community is a challenge. Is there any path frm here to there? I ask becasue that is what we are working on at Stanford in the sustainability project.
    Kallie Kira: yes, pictorially it looks very futuristic
    Pema Pera: did the Venus project actually start yet, or is it mostly a plan or dream?
    doug Sosa: wsy too technical. a world unsafe for pets and children. we need something ore organic and "local".
    Nymf Hathaway: back... he makes YouTube video's on which he explains Pema
    Kallie Kira: the Farm and the Venus Project .... forms of wishing? activism toward change? or simply types of sustainability?
    Kallie Kira: very different, yet similarities
    Nymf Hathaway: I agree on the simularities


    Pema Pera: wishing and getting started have an interesting dynamic and difference . . . The difference between wishing and responding to a situation is that you will be disappointed and possibly discouraged if wishes don't come true; whereas responding to a situation means doing the best you can, the natural thing to do, while leaving the results for the Universe to take care of, given that the whole world is far too complex to try to figure out and control.
    Kallie Kira: "a better world" "a bettery way" kind of vibe
    Nymf Hathaway: Wonderfully put Pema :)
    Kallie Kira: the part about wishes coming true, .... that is about expectations ... and wishes and expectations are different animals... if you have unfullfilled expectations you will likely be disappointed
    Pema Pera: "a different world" that might turn out to be better, when arising from more appropriate responses -- response comes from the presence, wishes from the future, through colored glasses often
    Kallie Kira: yes, give your best effort and then release ... the rest will unfold
    Pema Pera: anger often comes from the past, resentment, lack of acceptance
    Pema Pera: yes
    Kallie Kira: yes, I have thought my selective lack of memory for what made me angry very useful :) ha ha
    Pema Pera: in the previous century more than 100,000,000 people have been killed on the basis of forms of idealism, whether cloaked in fascism or communism, all "wishing" for implementing an imaginary "better" world . . . .
    Kallie Kira: probably what has made my marriage so long :)
    Pema Pera: :)


    doug Sosa: As a species our spontaneous approach has led to the rapid rise in population. Do we need to rethink that approach? to do so seems to violate the beautiful Pema approach.
    Pema Pera: no, our approach so far has been far from natural
    Pema Pera: as you often emphasize, Doug :)
    Pema Pera: much of our approach has violated being response-based
    Pema Pera: but rather idealism based
    Pema Pera: whether Christian, communist, fascist, you name it
    doug Sosa: no species has ever tried to manage its own size, but to expand till it meets resistance. Can we do better?
    Pema Pera: science based too, hope for technological fixes
    Pema Pera: we might . . . . we have the kind of understanding, question is do we have the will
    doug Sosa: Of course i tend to agree with you pema, and think that planning our way forward won't work.
    doug Sosa: ah, will and wish?


    Nymf Hathaway: I think Pema has a point...seems the world doesn't want to think about over population...China did and is seen as harsh for it... of course different problems came from that like dumping girls and unsafe abortions :(
    Pema Pera: as for will: do we have the will to take responsibility ourselves, by dropping our childish looking forward to the future, to abdicate our responsibility for a future savior (technological advances, or the proletariat, or a Messiah, or whatever) . . .
    doug Sosa: is not a wish the will dressed in fairydust?
    Kallie Kira: some do have the will, many do not ..... there are so many variations about the "how" that it can fall to the side
    Pema Pera: overpopulation is intertwined with economic inequality, and need to protect you against it by having many children . . . so we probably need to start with economic minimal basis
    doug Sosa: I agree, but I don't yet see a path to get there.
    Pema Pera: education of some sort, giving more people a sense of emancipation, empowerment, self confidence
    Kallie Kira: perhaps there is no path, perhaps the path is meltdown, it is the woo-whee of the process
    Pema Pera: enough to switch from wishfull thnking and relying on others to appreciating the possibilitiesof the present
    Pema Pera: yes, Kallie, perhaps where we are is the path, this very place we stand
    doug Sosa: Ther s a book, thegreat wave, that argues with data that population increases in the more econoically equal tmes ( falling price and rising wages), data across the whole hisoty of the world.
    Kallie Kira: exactly, the person in your chair, in my chair, here and now ...
    Pema Pera: yes, Doug, it's one of those very complex problems that are not easily "solved" by a few rules
    Nymf Hathaway: Thinks earth will solve overpopulation itself...by virusses, nature-disasters etc
    Kallie Kira: ha ha, unless of course you are lying in your bed :) or on a picnic blanket


    doug Sosa: can't we do better? Those are stupid ways of dealing with ourselves.
    Kallie Kira: we can do better personally
    Kallie Kira: and suggest such to our circles of influence
    Pema Pera: and inspire others thereby
    Pema Pera: yes
    Nymf Hathaway: yes we just cannot make others do what we think is right
    Pema Pera: giving an example may be the most powerful way to influence others
    Pema Pera: just showing forms of wu-wei, doing by not-doing, acting without friction, may snowball . . . .
    Kallie Kira: I agree, example is a powerful motivator .... I have hope (same as a wish?) for the power of pab :)
    Pema Pera: hope as an orientation is fine :-)
    Pema Pera: as a direction to work in
    Nymf Hathaway: Needs to log off, wishing everyone a nice rest of a discussion :)
    Pema Pera: bye Nymf, thanks for joining us!
    doug Sosa: elites are ina sealed cacoon. The bankers own the system and can pay for legislation to keep their ownership intat. how can one nicely disolve that ?
    Kallie Kira: bye Nymf :)
    Kallie Kira: make it irrelevant?
    doug Sosa: "intact
    Pema Pera: perhaps it is easier to see how we can't dissolve that, Doug: by partisan polarising discussions it is unlikely to be resolved -- at best bankers will be kicked out and replaced by worse apparatchiks
    Pema Pera: so by starting with a wu-wei spirit, chances are that a better solution can be found
    doug Sosa: i spend time trying to scenario thatout wiht real possibilities. Local actions that are not systmic across the whole look best.
    Kallie Kira: che said to infiltrate from the belly of the beast .... can woo-whee infiltrate? :)
    doug Sosa: as soon as it is, it does.
    Pema Pera: any attitude can infiltrate, simply when enough people take it up
    doug Sosa: so now that we are inthat belly, ..
    Kallie Kira: exactly so :)
    Kallie Kira: it's started
    doug Sosa: reminds me of the child who said "i can't tell if i am eating my dinner or it iseating me."
    Pema Pera: partisan and polarising attitudes form shields against attitude change
    Pema Pera: :)
    Pema Pera: sorry, have to take off
    Pema Pera: great conversation, thank you all !
    Kallie Kira: lol, funny .... I think that when I eat meat
    doug Sosa: yes, me too.
    Kallie Kira: yes, for sure ... enjoyed it :)
    Pema Pera: bye for now
    Kallie Kira: bye :)
    Pema Pera: thanks for joining us, Jard!
    Kallie Kira: yes, thanks Jard ... don't talk so much next time! :)
    Jard Ceres: :p

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