2009.08.18 13:00 - Spellbound Spirit

Expecting a quiet session I was suprised by the turnout

Bertram Jacobus: i doubt about my english skills
Mickorod Renard: Bertram,,I have never noticed that your english is not good
Bertram Jacobus: here first i understood the meetings at 1 pm had been silently in the last week, now i understand they were busy ... (?)
Eliza Madrigal: I will miss it once school starts. Then the weekends will be my only 1PM.
Eliza Madrigal: Ah
Mickorod Renard: yes,,same here
Isadora Davidov: Wiil you teach or study?
Eliza Madrigal: I will drive my children here there and everywhere like a good American mom. hahah
Bertram Jacobus: ;-)
Isadora Davidov: excellent; they are fortunate...
Eliza Madrigal: :) Yes, me too. Though, I did prefer it when I was able to tutor and such... we'll see.
Eliza Madrigal: Thank you :)
Isadora Davidov: well of course not too old, but I now am amzed that I can go back to something I'd read before and NO MEmory Whatsoever of having read the material
Bertram Jacobus: that is famous that good american moms are like that, even in europe (!) ... ;-)
Eliza Madrigal nods to Isadora... I know those details are in there somewhere but on the spot I often can't find them. haha
Isadora Davidov: I am no longer sure the details are even in there
Eliza Madrigal: we've been spoiled by google too perhaps :)
Mickorod Renard: he he , yes Isadora, I have enjoyed reading some old classics recently that I know I have read before,,yet cannot remember the story
Eliza Madrigal nods
Bertram Jacobus: brb (another big glass fluid. very hot here)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Isadora Davidov: I found that old copies of the NY Review of Books, with these long in-depth articles (social history, politics, lit crit etc)...I'd go back and God did I really read this??
Eliza Madrigal: hahah
Mickorod Renard: whats that nantucket one that Poe wrote?
Isadora Davidov: What did Poe write...a shortr story?
Mickorod Renard: its quiet a long one for him
Bertram Jacobus: hello hana ... :-)
Mickorod Renard: I have forgot the whole title
Isadora Davidov: Was anything buried like a Gold Bug?
Mickorod Renard: he gets passage on a ship that gets wrecked etc,,Edgar Allan Poe's only novel, "Arthur Gordon Pym of Nantucket"
Mickorod Renard: I found it disturbing
Isadora Davidov: Oh very good
Mickorod Renard: he he
Isadora Davidov: I mean that you came up with the reference..thanks
Mickorod Renard: np
Bertram Jacobus: it´s so strange and i don´t understand it yet : i don´t remember quiet meetings the last wek. only two times at 1 pm i was not here i guess. is my memory foolin me ?
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, at a site the reader is disappointed because the cannibalism wasn't scary enough. hahha
Bertram Jacobus: week*
Eliza Madrigal: Maybe Bert :) Maybe they are blneding and overlaping for you? :)
Eliza Madrigal: *blending
Bertram Jacobus: i have no idea ...
Mickorod Renard: grin,,Bertram, in english we just say things that are conversation pieces and are not nessessarily accurate
Bertram Jacobus: my life seems like a movie anyway - so ...
Eliza Madrigal: Maybe as we get older we retain *mostly* the essence of things...
Hana Furlough: bert how is your life like a movie?
Isadora Davidov: are you watching the movie as a sort of magical play?
Bertram Jacobus: it´s like unreal
Mickorod Renard: Pema likes the idea that we can look at things in life as if its a movie
Eliza Madrigal: like something you've seen already? hehe
Isadora Davidov: Hello
Mickorod Renard: well, I was thinking of something that we can observe from a diferent perspective
Isadora Davidov: That isa good skill to cultivate..not easy

Bert reveals enchanting ways

Bertram Jacobus: for example my last relation with a girl or better i should say woman was like a relation with a real witch. but - i don´t like to believe that such elements exist ... undescribable ...
Eliza Madrigal: :) Sorry Bert ... maybe a learning experience for you both, hope so
Isadora Davidov: A bad enchantment...that you allowed yourself to be made captive of or did she have some wild Halloween costumes?
Bertram Jacobus: yes mick. i made also experiences like that and even more : different worlds are to be experienced fort different people . all total strange
Mickorod Renard: was she a white witch or a bad one?
Eliza Madrigal: hahahah Isadora
Bertram Jacobus: no. i for example lost all my material background (money) for example in that time. after that i got it back
Eliza Madrigal: I knew someone who was very drawn to a woman who loved drama and causing problems for him with people. He would shake his head

and say "she has a spell on me"
Eliza Madrigal: I would shake my head and say "You must like the spell cause you stay"
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Mickorod Renard: ahhhhhhh,,its a long time since I had a spell on me
Eliza Madrigal grins
Mickorod Renard: fond memories
Isadora Davidov: Oh dreadful...I've had THat lesson too! And I was enchanted or I guess in love and did not understand thedisatrous possibilites
Eliza Madrigal: I don't have enough energy for those kinds of spells anymore :)
Isadora Davidov: And I haven't enough money to magnetize a wizard (if he needs gold)
Bertram Jacobus: and at the moment my ligfe is again very new and strange for me. the last relation is a few month back now ...
Eliza Madrigal: hehhe
Hana Furlough: lol
Mickorod Renard: I found a rich free woman a month back but I couldnt find my magic bag
Eliza Madrigal giggles
Isadora Davidov: Now that is a shame!
Mickorod Renard: yea..out of practice
Isadora Davidov: But if your life feels "unreal" or whatever...is that because you are makeing a big transition to a new point of view, a new study, a new profession or have left your homeplace and are isolated?
Bertram Jacobus: i made and make serious heavy experiences. at the moment many people fight against me for example
Mickorod Renard: or full of anxious worry?
Bertram Jacobus: quite exhausting
Mickorod Renard: thats not good Bert
Eliza Madrigal nods
Isadora Davidov: OH enemies rising up...hmmm, being in an embatttled position is very very stressful,,,wathch that you don't get into a depression
Bertram Jacobus: and i work in very starnge surroundings : get more money than my work should bring
Bertram Jacobus: don´t understand that all
Isadora Davidov: Well...there will be good use for that money somewhere somehow
Bertram Jacobus: but i don´t earn enough for the company. it is small. so they normally coul not pay me so much. not to be understood
Mickorod Renard: I still think we all hold onto the idea that money will make us happy
Bertram Jacobus: it´s some of that isa - relation over, moved to my old town. work is new and friends not present like before. all strange, simply strange
Mickorod Renard: you will settle down and it will fall into place Bert
Isadora Davidov: This is the liquid life we live now...structures, communites broken down
Hana Furlough: but getting rebuilt too in every moment
Eliza Madrigal: Lately for me, it isn't money so much as how I use it. I feel very sensitive to how wasteful 'we' are including myself
Qt Core: it may not lead to happiness but solve many "mundane" problems
Bertram Jacobus: yes. but i never experienced it in such a strong way
Bertram Jacobus: my life often changed
Bertram Jacobus: i did many different things
Bertram Jacobus: but in the moment - i can only repaet : like unreal
Eliza Madrigal: Some of the happiest/nicest homes I've been in were/are very simple... but cared for well, for example
Eliza Madrigal: Sometimes deconstruction is a time to re-think the 'way' one does things
Mickorod Renard: even if things are not perfect Bert, you can always look at it as an experience
Isadora Davidov: But holding on through that process...that is an anxious time..maybe not so bad when there are pelnty of distractions...but for ong stretches..isolation, anxiety,
Isadora Davidov: long stretches
Isadora Davidov: ONe good thing is you notice and express, this "unreality"
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Hana Furlough: yeah i agree
Hana Furlough: you don't have to identify with it
Isadora Davidov: Oh good point
Isadora Davidov: But when our feelings / emotiuons are involved...sometimes it's hard to recognize the trap of identifying (and reather strongly)
Eliza Madrigal: Sure. Don't strong emotions kind of signify a strong identification in some ways too?
Eliza Madrigal: A pointer: "Look here!"
Isadora Davidov: Oh...definitely...then you get completely sucked in
Hana Furlough: but what if you just felt the feeling as it was happening, without thinking
Bertram Jacobus: "without thinking" seems not possible to me (?) ...
Isadora Davidov: maybe without "thinking" but it's also in the body and something like the subconscious (or whatever you call it...the momentariy unrecognized)
Isadora Davidov: Bertram, this is so important, on several dimensions, what

you speak of...
Bertram Jacobus: which dimensions you mean for example isa ? may i ask

?
Isadora Davidov: But it would also seem you have a developed ability to

"wathch" yourself
Isadora Davidov: 'watch...that's so important also
Hana Furlough: bert, if it's in the body, how about just feeling that place?
Isadora Davidov: well...the important topic of social, physical isolation or

rapid shift to a new environment, then the "unreality"...the watching...maybe

I infer there are challenging emoational states that you're not

experienceing...I Only infer that
Bertram Jacobus: i notice. that body and mind can be separated in relation

to experiences. no must but a can
Isadora Davidov: hmmm
Bertram Jacobus: and the body is like physics - the mind can be "more

free" is my impression
Isadora Davidov: oh yes
doug Sosa: well, in tai chi, one of the great learnings is that the movement

of one muscle requires rebalancing by all the others.. In a way there is lots

of freedom in that.
Eliza Madrigal: Interesting point, Doug. Maybe also expecting that shifting

helps one to be patient with it
Bertram Jacobus: which way of freedom is that doug please ? i don´t

understand (?) ...
Mickorod Renard: yes,,I am interested too
Archmage Atlantis: If I may say, sometimes the body and the things of the

world dominate, ususally due to problems or concerns......Escaping through

through some techique to where the quietness of being is works for many
doug Sosa: yes, and like the mind. i don't find them (any longer, distinct

from each other. both are part of experience, which always comes first.
Archmage Atlantis: The mind, imho, is also of the world, the quiet place is

between .....one might say spiritual

Found in translation, or should that be lost?

Bertram Jacobus: it´s strange in german : the word for mind and

spirituality is the same ("geist") ... (!)
Mickorod Renard: wow
Archmage Atlantis: Hm
Eliza Madrigal: Hm :)
Archmage Atlantis: No modifyers, like zeitgeist vs. ??
Hana Furlough: bert, what about the words for heart and mind?
Bertram Jacobus: one could more precise try to explain - it´s like a kind of

"lower" and "higher" "geist" - the one the rational one the other the not

material one
Hana Furlough: nice
Archmage Atlantis: That sounds right to me
Bertram Jacobus: they are so different like in english too hana
Mickorod Renard: like a ubergeist?
Isadora Davidov: We have many separate terms: mind, spirit,
Bertram Jacobus: that would describe the spiritual aspect of "geist" mick - yes (?)
Hana Furlough: thanks bert
Bertram Jacobus: what is tzhe difference between mind and spirit exactly ? :-)
Bertram Jacobus: or is there some at all ? ;-)
Isadora Davidov: Hmm, smart peopel should speak up
Bertram Jacobus: okay : must not be "exactly" -
Bertram Jacobus: ;-)
arabella Ella: well since i understand a bit of german and english ...
Hana Furlough: everyone should speak up
arabella Ella: not that i am smart but ...
arabella Ella: giest is the tranbslation of soul or spirit
doug Sosa: James Hillman said you can have a messy (screwed up) mind but a clean spirit. Mind is more images and logics, spirit is closer to the tone of the soul.
arabella Ella: and in english some people equate mind with soul
Bertram Jacobus: nice doug
Archmage Atlantis: Geist seems closer to the world than spirit, i what I am

reading
Hana Furlough: mind is habit, spirit is every fresh possibility
Bertram Jacobus: no arch and ara sorry : geist is really both
arabella Ella: yes but bertram soul is often considered to be mind in english

too although sould also has more religious connotations
Bertram Jacobus: and that brings a lot of misunderstandings in german (!)
arabella Ella: geist was a word often used by Hegel
Isadora Davidov: OK...well commonly , in my mind..I use the term " when

I'm referring to cognitive functions (althoug we use the term colloquially

when we say " Ihave a mind to go or do something, meaning I feel I want

to...and spirit relates to something more complex..a total unlimited sense of

Being..a fresh whole sort of immaterial inner sense..somehow transcendent
Archmage Atlantis: I understand Bert, but I am saying it misses the place

of the soul/essense/being, in what I am reading
Bertram Jacobus: like love - where the old greek have the nice words eros,

philia and agape. much more precise ...
Eliza Madrigal: Time to check in on Maxine :) Nice to see everyone today!
Isadora Davidov: use the term "mind"
Bertram Jacobus: ara - that´s a additional point i guess : that philosophers

give words own kinda "colours" (!) - which makes the things not easier ... ;-)
Bertram Jacobus: sometimes
arabella Ella nods
Bertram Jacobus: or often (?)
arabella Ella: yes
Archmage Atlantis: Often, is my experience Bert
Bertram Jacobus: okay -
arabella Ella: but perhaps we ought to remember that there are languages

which do not have a proper translation for 'mind' but do for 'soul' ... and that

'mind' was inherited following Descartes and his separation of everything

into two realms
Archmage Atlantis: How would the word Transcendent be expressed in

German?
Bertram Jacobus: and now my understanding of mind and spirit increased i

think ty :-)
Bertram Jacobus: it´s transzendent :-)
Archmage Atlantis: and Bert if you defined "transendent", how would you

define it?
Bertram Jacobus: i would say, for example "beyond duality" (?)
Hana Furlough: yeah
Archmage Atlantis: Well, that seems to hit the issue on the head, so to

speak
Qt Core: sometimes i find funny that the word for mind in italian is "mente"

but that can be also be read as "he/she/it is lying
arabella Ella: :)
Bertram Jacobus: whaow lol :o)
Hana Furlough: wow qt that is amazing!
Isadora Davidov: giggle
Hana Furlough: thanks for that
Pema Pera: :)
arabella Ella: never realised that QT ... like 'sto mentendo' i am lying?
Qt Core: yes
arabella Ella: :)
Archmage Atlantis: Qt, what is the origin....that the mind does not see the

actuality, but only the illusion, would be my guess
Qt Core: i don't think there is a connection there, just two words converging

on the same form
arabella Ella: we use 'mente' for mind in my language too Qt but it is

obviously derivative from Italian and a recent addition to the language I

guess
Qt Core: (may have to check that)
Archmage Atlantis: I think the etymology would be an interesting small

project
arabella Ella: (and it does not mean lying here)
arabella Ella: perhaps you could check the Latin form of both words, may

be interesting
Isadora Davidov: a new word, clear thought constructs open new

understandinng, bring knowledge
Bertram Jacobus: nice idea isa
Hana Furlough: i like it
Bertram Jacobus: construct and create ... hm ... (another pair of words) ...
Archmage Atlantis: Yes, not equivalent, but close in result
Archmage Atlantis: In this world, anyway
Bertram Jacobus: yes. again i´m interested in the difference of both ... hm
Bertram Jacobus: construct may handle with already created "parts" (?) ...
Bertram Jacobus: but not too important. only playing ... :o)
arabella Ella: ok bert so here goes
Archmage Atlantis: depend, Bert, as a noun yes, as a verb, not so much
arabella Ella: construct ... if a then b, if b then c, if c then d etc so if a then

c
arabella Ella: create ... if x then b8fc90
arabella Ella: unrelated but
Bertram Jacobus: lol ara :-)) nice.
Mickorod Renard: lol Ara
arabella Ella: in hindsight one can trace back the relation
arabella Ella: for create
arabella Ella: for construct the relation is obvious from the start like

constructing a pyramid on solid foundations and each building on the

previous
Archmage Atlantis: Yes, Ara, if we accept the traditional rules of logic
arabella Ella: not sure if that is clear enough?
arabella Ella: the traditional rules of logic provide foundations metaphorical

for explaining 'construct'
Mickorod Renard: did we cover tranccendant ok?
Mickorod Renard: transcendent*
Archmage Atlantis: Remember Einstein only had to drop one of Euclid's

postulates to recreate our understanding on time and space
Isadora Davidov: not quite, but nonduality was proposed ...or pointing in that

direction
arabella Ella nods
Isadora Davidov: Which one did he drop?
arabella Ella: for me transcendent implies a holistic but metacognitive (over

and above everything else) point of view
Mickorod Renard: Surpassing others; preeminent or supreme Lying beyond

the ordinary range of perception
Archmage Atlantis: The shortest distance between 2 points is a straight

line
Bertram Jacobus: i would agree ara
arabella Ella: :)
Isadora Davidov: Oh, thank you...so is the shortest distance curved?
Archmage Atlantis: In Einsteins world, although he could not accept all the

logical consequences ot that
arabella Ella: depends which world we are taking about
Mickorod Renard: only when U go round the bend
Archmage Atlantis: It was left to others
Archmage Atlantis: Bye Pema, I should like to meet you some day
Archmage Atlantis: Blessings be
Isadora Davidov: "meta" is good, but also ineffable (so not exactly in Bye
Bertram Jacobus: [90 secs] ... ;-)
arabella Ella: if we talk about the law of gravity for example in this world it is

not always the case that things fall to the ground, take the sea where they

float or outer space where they may move in different dimensions too
Isadora Davidov: Oh...very expansive...but in the sea, heavy dense objects

do go "downward"...inflated things float
arabella Ella: depends
arabella Ella: on density
Archmage Atlantis: Yes Ara, it seems so
arabella Ella: hot air balloons are another thing again
Bertram Jacobus: i think too : gravity must not always mean that things fall

to the ground - doesn´t it mean, that mass attracts mass ?
Archmage Atlantis: That came out incorrect, I agree Ara
arabella Ella: i can only explain things from a layperson's point of view as I

am not a physics expert
Archmage Atlantis: Not a physicist, but I believe that is the current

explanation Bertram
Bertram Jacobus: and only one phenomenon between others ...
Isadora Davidov: so do planets in the solar systme stay in oprbit because

the sun's mass is a sort of "gravity"?
Mickorod Renard: if I increase my mass I would become more

attractive,,,cool
Isadora Davidov: exerts some type of gravity..
Archmage Atlantis: That also is the current explanation I believe Isa
Archmage Atlantis: The gravity of the sun forms a well, or vortex, that cause

the planets to fall inward toward it in an elliptical movement
arabella Ella: altho i saw a documentary about the sun the other week and

it sounded amazing how the sun itself is composed of various masses

which vibrate and move around within what we consider to be one mass but

in fact is lots of masses moving around together
Bertram Jacobus: that is one of the mentioned phenomenons i think isa.

another is there the so called "centrifugal force" - and both in a certain sort

of "balance" bring the well known effects of our sunsystem
Mickorod Renard: some astral boddies actually curb space
Mickorod Renard: making light bend during its travel through space
Isadora Davidov: I need to return to physics class
Qt Core: not some every one, but most in undetectable little amount
Bertram Jacobus: lool mick ! :o)
Bertram Jacobus: (mass and atraction)
Archmage Atlantis: There are are I believe currently 4 forces in the basic

physics assumptions
Archmage Atlantis: Gravity being one
Isadora Davidov: the weak force, Waals?
Isadora Davidov: I have forgotten, though I hardly ever understood in the fiirst

place...
Archmage Atlantis: Yes, and the strong force, gravity and.....I forget the

other
Bertram Jacobus: i´ll leave - ty all for the great session. may all beings be

happy ...
Qt Core: electromagnetic
Archmage Atlantis: May you experience transcendence
Isadora Davidov: Ah...and I shoudl go and tryp to exert some force on the

mass of unsorted and unfiled papers nearby