2009.08.25 13:00 - Minimalistic Thoughts Only-Strictly No Habits

The Guardian for this meeting was Mickorod Renard.

Yakuzza Lethecus: i constantly think about the issue how much material stuff i ,,want" to own
Mickorod Renard: I have come to the idea that we bring too many complications on ourselves,,well I did anyway
Bertram Jacobus: and janis jopling sang once "freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose" ... i like that very much ...
Yakuzza Lethecus: but i guess i will buy a flat as soon as i have the money just not to pay monthly
Yakuzza Lethecus: hehe :)
Mickorod Renard: yes, both good
Mickorod Renard: but minimalist is nice
Yakuzza Lethecus: i think the most important thing for me is the ability to think about my own attitudes and the ability to verbalize thoughts
Yakuzza Lethecus: for example second life is just about comunication and learning how to even express thoughts because for example at pab many people are opening up
Yakuzza Lethecus: communication
Mickorod Renard: I had lots of time to think,,which I did,,but it was spoilt with so many responsibilities to worry about
Yakuzza Lethecus: it´s even pretty hard to find that in real life
Hana Furlough: but do we always need to think?
Hana Furlough: maybe we should spend some time not thinking?
Yakuzza Lethecus: it depends, for me feeling is thinking
Yakuzza Lethecus: we just don´t have words :)
Bertram Jacobus: why can´t feeling be feeling and thinking be thinking yaku ? ;-)
Mickorod Renard: well,,my Dad used to say,,'Micko,,you think too much'
Yakuzza Lethecus: when i think i feel that i am often not thinking but stuck in thoughts i already had
Yakuzza Lethecus: when i am feeling and relaxed i often come to new ideas and have even been more concentrated
Mickorod Renard: If I am busy with my hands I think less, so its good for me to stay busy
Mickorod Renard: yes yaku, I have heard it said that the subconcious is very good at thinking by itself
Mickorod Renard: maybe thats where Hana's idea works well,,dont think conciously,,just enjoy and the subcon will work out the probs
Wol Euler grins. Wu wei again.
Hana Furlough: yes!
Bertram Jacobus: wu wei is soooo nice !
Hana Furlough: the challenge being to truly live in a way that is wuwei
Wol Euler nods and smiles
Mickorod Renard: does anyone know anything about white noise?
Bertram Jacobus: i know the group. musicans.
Wol Euler: depends what you want to know about it :)
Hana Furlough: like a white noise machine?
Mickorod Renard: well, i was thinking ,,that that is what all my thoughts seem to feel like,,a huge annoying noise
Mickorod Renard: I think its used in torture
Wol Euler: or in treating sleep problems
Hana Furlough: yeah my friedn had one of those to block out street noise
Bertram Jacobus: but it is teached that thoughts are nothing else then spirit. an expression, a kind of part of it.
Mickorod Renard: so should we suppress thought??
Wol Euler: god no.
Bertram Jacobus: it is teached that definitly not
Hana Furlough: i don't think we need to
Sluggy Easterwood: hi peoipple
Yakuzza Lethecus: take a pillow
Mickorod Renard: come join us if you like sluggy
Mickorod Renard: have you been here before?
Hana Furlough: welcome!
Sluggy Easterwood: no
Yakuzza Lethecus: and consider big brother is logging you and putting everything you say on his website :)
Mickorod Renard: I will give u a notecard
Sluggy Easterwood: ive been to philsoophuy house
Bertram Jacobus: and a warm welcome from me to you too sluggy :-)
Mickorod Renard: yea, i go to Philo house sometimes
Mickorod Renard: we are into all sorts of open discussion here,,but we try and keep it friendly and non abussive
Wol Euler: and actually we do record and publish these conversations. May we have your permission to publish your name and comments?
Sluggy Easterwood: philosophy house is usually friendly but sometimes aggresie ,i dont mind
Sluggy Easterwood: i suppose you mean sl name?
Bertram Jacobus: yes. sl name
Mickorod Renard: yes,,these chats here are posted on a wiki,,so if you dont want anything that you say to become public please say
Bertram Jacobus: it´s an interesting project ...
Mickorod Renard: whats that Bert?
Bertram Jacobus: to study life in this way ...
Bertram Jacobus: with the means of pab
Sluggy Easterwood: i could become famous ... well i dont mind my sl name being used but i like to seperate sl from rl usually
Wol Euler: sure, most people do :)
Wol Euler: thanks for agreeing :)
Bertram Jacobus: (may be i should have said "instruments" and not "means" - may be was a total wrong word) -
Mickorod Renard: we were discussing thoughts,,and whether its good to have less
Zen Arado: maybe to give less importance to them
Mickorod Renard: that sounds nice
Bertram Jacobus: and then i may be one of the exceptions : for me, sl and fl (first life) - coinside quite often ...
Hana Furlough: yeah see them for what they are and keep going
Zen Arado: use them as tools not masters
Zen Arado: not easy though
arabella Ella: but ... and hope I am not off track ... what about thoughts about external issues that need decision making but which are terribly complex?
Mickorod Renard: its funny, i sometimes wonder ,,like in Samsara,,where u have to recognise that what u have done may impose on the present or future,,that is in some way control
Zen Arado: oh yes...functional thought is important
Hana Furlough: good point mick
Mickorod Renard: yet control is frwned upon
Hana Furlough: but if we didn't have this control, then we couldn't rely on ourselves for liberation
Wol Euler: tre
Wol Euler: +u
arabella Ella: :)
Zen Arado: contro is probably an illusion though?
Mickorod Renard: yes Zen?
Zen Arado: we only think we control our lives
Mickorod Renard: ahh,,yes
Wol Euler raises an eyebrow.
Hana Furlough: this is true
Zen Arado: every day brings surprises
Hana Furlough: or koans
Mickorod Renard: it sort of goes around in circles though
Zen Arado: you sure ?
Zen Arado: :)
Bertram Jacobus: i think the circles are at least a helix
Mickorod Renard: i had a debate where someone said that they had no control over life so they would do what they wanted,,good or bad
Zen Arado: we tend to solidify it
Zen Arado: put artificial patterns on it
Hana Furlough: or ignore other patterns that run contrary to our preconceived notions
arabella Ella: i think the only valid context for control is in a task work related situation which requires concrete results ...
Zen Arado: but it is unpredictable I think
Zen Arado: yes Hana
arabella Ella: in our personal lives it is different and we often try to control others through power play
Hana Furlough: it is beyond predictable and unpredictable
Mickorod Renard: sorry, I meant the discussion in circles,,like do we control or not?
Zen Arado: sometimes we have to try to control I guess
Hana Furlough: or just be in harmony
Hana Furlough: with Being
Zen Arado: yes but we have to make plans
Mickorod Renard: I am working on just doing the right thing,,then hoping that thats enough
arabella Ella: however in our personal lives we often think that by controlling others thoughts or actions then it will provide a better outcome for ourselves but i think that is a mistaken tack to take and we need to give others greater autonomy and responsibility
Hana Furlough: give people the benefit of the doubt
Zen Arado: good point Ara
Zen Arado: ppl know they are being controlled too and rebel often
arabella Ella: exactly
Zen Arado: manipulation
arabella Ella: i dont think any of us like to have either our thoughts or actions controlled by others
Hana Furlough: i agree
Mickorod Renard: but as you have poinrted out before Ara,,others have control over us, in ways,,and as such we may need to steer this
Hana Furlough: we start to rebel when that happens
arabella Ella: yes
Wol Euler: well, outside of specific play contexts :)
arabella Ella: :)
Zen Arado: gets like a game
Zen Arado: life I mean
Mickorod Renard: like when others do actions that effect us
Hana Furlough: where are the instructions, zen?
Mickorod Renard: no man is an island
Zen Arado: aren't any :)
arabella Ella: ehrm ... Mick ... no human is an island
arabella Ella: gender :)
Zen Arado: :)
Hana Furlough: or don't need any
Mickorod Renard: grin,,sorry ladies
Zen Arado: hard to stop trying to control others though
Zen Arado: we want them to behave the way we want
Mickorod Renard: yes
arabella Ella: but ... if we dont wish them to control us, then why should we wish to control them?
Zen Arado: but they don't sigh :(
Hana Furlough: yeah that's the hardest part of life i think
Mickorod Renard: he he , maybe we just want to control the effect of their actions
Zen Arado: I knbow Ara but we still do I think
arabella Ella: yes
Hana Furlough: so what do we do with this feeling of wanting to control people/outcomes?
Zen Arado: guess we have to admit it first
arabella Ella: i personally think it is difficult to generalise control to all possible situations
Mickorod Renard: become a hermit
Zen Arado: notice ourselves doing it
Zen Arado: :)
arabella Ella: control is ok in some situations i guess ... work related, under age kids and as Wol said ... amongst consenting adults :)
Hana Furlough: but is it enought to notice?
Mickorod Renard: I think this is why some decide to be monks
Hana Furlough: should we water it with a little love too?
Mickorod Renard: or nuns
Zen Arado: no but we often dont do that I think
arabella Ella: :)
Zen Arado: until somebody tells us
arabella Ella: what scares me about control is how it often invades long term relationships in a very nasty way ... ends up being subtle bullying or power play which is not desirable
Zen Arado: you would try to control monastery then :)
Zen Arado: yes Ara - my very thoughts
arabella Ella: it is said that ppl take their own personal attributes into monastries too
Mickorod Renard: yea,,controlling nuns is a lifelong fantacy
Zen Arado: :)
Wol Euler: :-PPPPP
Zen Arado: make them lose their habits :)
arabella Ella: you like their habits Mick?
Zen Arado: sorry
arabella Ella: :)
Wol Euler makes a note to wear her habit next time
Mickorod Renard: grin,,just some humour
Hana Furlough: lol
Mickorod Renard: ;-)
arabella Ella: the Irish nuns who tried to educate me had lots of weird habits
Zen Arado: yes ?
Mickorod Renard: best keep them private Ara?
arabella Ella: :)
Mickorod Renard: dont forget the wiki
arabella Ella: enough said on that topic
arabella Ella: best delete that bit mick :)
Mickorod Renard: he he
arabella Ella: the way i see it ...
Mickorod Renard: ahh,,yes I am in control as the guardian
arabella Ella: in order to avoid too much control getting into long term relationships ...
arabella Ella: one needs to create lots of space
arabella Ella: and freedom
arabella Ella: and that is very difficult for most
Wol Euler nos
Wol Euler: *nods
arabella Ella: an example that comes to mind is
Wol Euler: and knows
Zen Arado: for oneself :)
Wol Euler: damn typos.
arabella Ella: what was written about Jean Paul Sartre and Simone du Beauvoir
Mickorod Renard: yea,,I cud buy a nice batchellor pad
Zen Arado: ah yes the open relationship
Zen Arado: yes Ara?
arabella Ella: but too much space can create a situation where one person creates embarassement for the other ... or humiliation which may not be desired
Mickorod Renard: ok,,a batchellor pad next door to wife
arabella Ella: yes Sartre and du Beauvoir had an open relationship
arabella Ella: or so it is said
Zen Arado: is there such a thing?
arabella Ella: not easy either
Wol Euler: he certainly had one that was open, was hers too?
Zen Arado: I think they had problems though
arabella Ella nods
arabella Ella: an open relationship may tend to end up one sided to the detriment of the other party
Mickorod Renard: wasnt that comas chap involved too?
Hana Furlough: maybe it's different for different people
Wol Euler: Albert Camus? not that I knew.
Mickorod Renard: thats him
arabella Ella: I dont think so
Mickorod Renard: ohh
Zen Arado: he was an outsider :)
arabella Ella: he was brought up in Algeria under the French and I expect they were quite repressed and not too open in those days
Zen Arado: big problem is jealousy I think
arabella Ella: altho in those days they would just sweep things under the carpet
arabella Ella: polyamorous is another alternative :)
arabella Ella: but again difficult
Mickorod Renard: whats that Ara?
arabella Ella: complicated relationships which are open
Hana Furlough: what about simply renewing the freedom in our minds?
arabella Ella: i once went to a discussion on SL on polyamorous relationships, some claimed they could work
Zen Arado: are you all ok with your lover making love to someone else?
Mickorod Renard: I have a sneaky idea that my mind is too conditioned now
arabella Ella: hey Zen for those of us in Europe ...
arabella Ella: you got to distinguish
arabella Ella: between lover and long term partner or wife or hubby
arabella Ella: see
Wol Euler: I'd have some trouble with that, Zen
Zen Arado: well.....same question
Zen Arado: but some dont get jealous?
Wol Euler: or aren't as possessive, which may not be the same thing
Mickorod Renard: not really,,and you have to think health issues nowadays too
Zen Arado: true
Zen Arado: jealousy stems from possessiveness I guess
Mickorod Renard: I am jelous,,in some ways
arabella Ella: it is likely to be easier to have an open relationship with a lover rather than with a long term partner
Zen Arado: but having a partner is by nature a possessive act?
arabella Ella: yes i think so
Hana Furlough: is a duet a possessive act?
Mickorod Renard: but then a partnership is by mutual concent
Mickorod Renard: and contractual
Zen Arado: is some jealousy justified?
Hana Furlough: of course
Mickorod Renard: well,,I think to live in any relationship,,comunal or personal there are ground rules
Zen Arado: Jealousy *
Hana Furlough: neither negative nor positive
Mickorod Renard: ground rules is a form of control
Zen Arado: but it is an undesirable trait
arabella Ella: i think that if you really love someone then you are likely bound to be both jealous and possessive to some extent
Wol Euler: I disagree, Mick, if they are mutually formed and agreed to they are not "control".
Mickorod Renard: we are creatures of desire,,therefore temptation will always be a beconning
Zen Arado: jealousy is a form of anger
arabella Ella: why Zen?
Zen Arado: we want something someone else is getting
Mickorod Renard: I see your point Wol
arabella Ella: but it is more dissonance Zen rather than anger
Zen Arado: and get angry about not having it
arabella Ella: what i hate about thoughts are those which result from deceit on the part of others, mud slinging and attempts to ruin reputation and integrity
Zen Arado: it certainly can simmer like anger
arabella Ella: only if obsessive
Mickorod Renard: open aggreement is great until only one wants to break off
Wol Euler nods
Zen Arado: jealousy is obsessive I think
arabella Ella: not always
Zen Arado: just its nature?
Zen Arado: ok you can have pangs
arabella Ella: :)
Mickorod Renard: I think jealous is often used out of context by whoever

wants to use it to control someone
Zen Arado: by telling them you are jealous?
Mickorod Renard: yes
Zen Arado: ah
Mickorod Renard: well, i think I have been victim of that
Zen Arado: how do you overcome jealousy?
Hana Furlough: open your arms and accept it with love
Zen Arado: not easy !
arabella Ella: by keeping yourself busy elsewhere to take your mind off your jealousy?
Mickorod Renard: become a monk or nun?
Zen Arado: distraction?
arabella Ella: maybe
Zen Arado: I mditate with it
Zen Arado: watch the churning thoughts
Zen Arado: usually wears it out
arabella Ella nods
Zen Arado: but takes time and is painful
arabella Ella: yes
Mickorod Renard: I guess its give in,,become humble and grateful for what life gives
Zen Arado: maybe better to try not to get into possible jealousy creating scenarios
Mickorod Renard: then get your own back
Zen Arado: :)
arabella Ella: but often jealousy arises as a result of actions of others
arabella Ella: which we cannot control
Zen Arado: and unexpected actions
arabella Ella: ye
Mickorod Renard: we can try
arabella Ella: yes
arabella Ella: some people can be very cruel in their ways and arouse jealousy without even realising the damage they cause to others
Mickorod Renard: I guess its something that effects the human race
Zen Arado: yes
Zen Arado: lack of empathy
arabella Ella: and lack of compassion ... related to empathy
Mickorod Renard: whilst there are always going to be people who are happy to take advantage,,I guess we have to be on our guard
Mickorod Renard: Zen,,Are you the Zen I knew before?
Zen Arado: how do I know?
arabella Ella: yes you are
Mickorod Renard: grin
Wol Euler: hheheheheh
Wol Euler: fair answer, but also a dead giveaway
arabella Ella: you used to come to the philo classes didnt you?
Zen Arado: yes
Mickorod Renard: I havnt seen u for ages

Zen Arado: those classes are on nights that dont suit me
Zen Arado: I go to RL events Tues Thurs

Zen Arado: and to a Buddhist roup in SL Sundays

Zen Arado: which is a pity
Zen Arado: cos I like Herman
Mickorod Renard: me too
Mickorod Renard: cant do everything
Zen Arado: sorry I typed through bell
arabella Ella: :)
Mickorod Renard: no probs
Mickorod Renard: I recall there was an issue over the access to the rl zen building
Zen Arado: ah yes
Zen Arado: still is :)
Mickorod Renard: lol
Zen Arado: going to a zen retreat this weekend
Zen Arado: 3 day only
arabella Ella: cool
Mickorod Renard: nice,,wherabouts?
arabella Ella: in the USA?
Zen Arado: no in N.Ireland
Mickorod Renard: nice
arabella Ella: interesting
Zen Arado: Place called Benburb
Zen Arado: an old Servite priory
Mickorod Renard: u r midlands yes?
Zen Arado: no I live in Carrickfergus
Mickorod Renard: ahhh
Zen Arado: 10 miles north of Belfast
Mickorod Renard: yes
arabella Ella: oh i was about to ask which country would that be :)
Zen Arado: I do 3 retreats a year
Zen Arado: usually
Wol Euler: nice

Zen Arado: it is hard to meditate all day
arabella Ella: no speaking at all?
Zen Arado: no
arabella Ella: ouch
Zen Arado: noly functional speech
arabella Ella: ah
Zen Arado: like pass me the salt ...
Mickorod Renard: I could have done that years ago,,but I have become a chatterbox lately
arabella Ella: it must be so difficult
Zen Arado: talking would make your mind work too much
arabella Ella: i dunno
Mickorod Renard: how do you mean Zen?
Zen Arado: you kinda get into it though
arabella Ella: sometimes talking can take your mind off your thoughts too
Zen Arado: usually stimulates though
Mickorod Renard: thats a woman quality ASra
Zen Arado: :)
arabella Ella: what do you find are the greatest benefits after a retreat Zen?
Zen Arado: you feel calmer
arabella Ella: is it then difficult to re-adjust to RL?
Zen Arado: but you shouldn't do it for benefits
arabella Ella: ah
Zen Arado: after a long retreat they say it can be
Zen Arado: like 3 months
arabella Ella: yes
Zen Arado: it is removing your usual distractions
arabella Ella: but if it is not done for benefits ... i mean ... self cleansing, thought purification ... are they not considered benefits?
Wol Euler: wow.
Mickorod Renard: I may need something like that
Zen Arado: so you can see what is going o in your mind more clearly
arabella Ella: ah
Zen Arado: yes Ara but it is not the right attitude at the end
arabella Ella: because ... what i mean is ... people go with some sort of motivation
Zen Arado: that is the way we start though
arabella Ella: yes
Zen Arado: you can't know in advance what will happen
arabella Ella: true
Zen Arado: it is not conceptual
arabella Ella: ok
Zen Arado: it is experience
arabella Ella: yes
arabella Ella: the PaB retreat must be on at the moment
Wol Euler nods
arabella Ella: i wonder how they are getting along
Zen Arado: oh?
Wol Euler smiles.
Zen Arado: in SL?
arabella Ella: no in RL in Calif
Zen Arado: ah
arabella Ella: they were expected to be around 10 to 12 people
arabella Ella: all of who attend PaB here
Zen Arado: where do they go?
arabella Ella: ehrm ... cant remember the name of the location ... can you Wol?
arabella Ella: i think it is close to SF
Wol Euler: mmmmmm, no.
Mickorod Renard: I bet its on the wiki
arabella Ella: yes
Wol Euler: or in any one of three dozen e-mails :)
Zen Arado: SF Zen Center?
Mickorod Renard: no
arabella Ella: no it is outside SF somewhere in the hills and woods
Mickorod Renard: but its in the hills some way up from SF
Zen Arado: Tassajara?
Mickorod Renard: lol,,I cant remem
arabella Ella: no idea
Wol Euler: doesn't sound quite right, trying to remember - nd to find in e_mail
arabella Ella: it is somewhere with log cabins
arabella Ella: and lovely wooded areas
arabella Ella: seems very peaceful venue
arabella Ella: just right for a retreat
Zen Arado: Tassajara had bad fires last year
arabella Ella: oh
arabella Ella: if i remember correctly i think it is a couple of hours drive out of SF but no idea which direction
Zen Arado: ok doesn't matter
Zen Arado: just curious
arabella Ella: yes
arabella Ella: we will hopefully hear all about it once they are back
Zen Arado: did Moon Fargis go?
arabella Ella: i did not get the list of participants
Zen Arado: ok just wondered
arabella Ella: but two days ago here Isadora and Maxine said they were going
arabella Ella: and Tarmel from Oz and Fefonz too
arabella Ella: Pema of course
Wol Euler: got it! Pema Osel Ling http://www.polmountainretreat.com/
Wol Euler: near santa cruz
arabella Ella: brilliant Wol
Wol Euler smiles modestly. It's a Macintosh, it Just Works.
Mickorod Renard: well done wol,,i was searching too
Zen Arado: ah ty interesting
Zen Arado: not a zen place
Zen Arado: Tibetan
Wol Euler: not as such, no. buddhist though. I think
Wol Euler: yes
Mickorod Renard: I think there was some free space but the flights were expensive from uk
arabella Ella: well the only european there will be Pema
Wol Euler: I remember there was some debate about whether Storm could be accomodated there, since he belongs to some faction anathematized by the Dalai Lama
arabella Ella: i think all the others are from the USA, plus Fef and Tarmel
Zen Arado: a teacher from SFZC comes here twice a year to lead retreats
arabella Ella: oh yes Wol i remember that
Mickorod Renard: yes Wol,,but they did make arrangements for Storm
Mickorod Renard: sounds good Zen
arabella Ella: ok so must be Pema, Storm, Fef, Tarmel, Maxine, Isadora ... not sure who else
Zen Arado: it would be good to have a full time zen priest though
arabella Ella: :)
arabella Ella: it would also be interesting to have the next PaB retreat in Europe
Wol Euler: definitely!
arabella Ella: hey this is lovely and symmetric now Wol :)
Mickorod Renard: that was nice to see him again
Wol Euler: :)
Mickorod Renard: well,,that was a good long session again
Wol Euler: mmhmm
arabella Ella: Wol ... is it already cold where you are?
arabella Ella: in RL
Mickorod Renard: I can see I will have lots to do on the log
Wol Euler: no, alas. high twenties and very humid.
Wol Euler: I hate summer.
arabella Ella: oh so very warm by your standards
arabella Ella: here it is yet another heatwave
arabella Ella: takes away all energy
Wol Euler: well, it was ten degrees warmer last week. that was awful
arabella Ella: wow incredible
arabella Ella: and i hear it is warm in your area too Mick?
Wol Euler: far too hot for me.
arabella Ella: :)
Mickorod Renard: I just went south france 4 a few days,,mosquitoes got me
arabella Ella: i dont mind being in the sea which is 25 degrees
Wol Euler: nice.
arabella Ella: yes
Mickorod Renard: couldnt sleep
arabella Ella: but driving around in the midday heat is terrible
Mickorod Renard: yea
arabella Ella: it is still considered to be middle of summer here
Mickorod Renard: are u not using m bike Ara?
arabella Ella: we still have two months of heat to go
arabella Ella: i use bike most days but got to use car every two days or so
arabella Ella: battery
Mickorod Renard: ahhh
arabella Ella: but even on bike it is so hot with sun scorching me
arabella Ella: :)
arabella Ella: bike helps me to maintain my tan
Mickorod Renard: well,,I guess I had best be going too
Wol Euler smiles.
Wol Euler: bye mick, take care, sleep well.
Mickorod Renard: bye,,and you Wol,,see u soon
Wol Euler: tomorrow possibly :)