2009.08.07 19:00 - Prayer: Geo/Sophia theme session

The Guardian for this meeting was Dakini Rhode. The comments are by Dakini Rhode.

Pema Pera: Dakini, I hope it's okay with you that we're using your session for the Geo/Sophia theme session tonight
Dakini Rhode: that's excellent, Pema
--BELL--
doug Sosa: what time?
Pema Pera: Hi Sophia!
Pema Pera: 7 pm?
doug Sosa: oh, now?
Pema Pera: yes
SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Pema, hi all :)
Dakini Rhode: hi Sophia
Pema Pera: Hi Geo!
Dakini Rhode: hello Geo
SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Geo
doug Sosa: hello
Geo Netizen: Hi Sophia, Dakini, Pema, Doug :)
Pema Pera: Hi Adams!
SophiaSharon Larnia: HI Adams :)
Dakini Rhode: hi Adams
Geo Netizen bows to Adams
Adams Rubble: Hello Pema, Sophia, Dakini, Geo and Doug :)
Adams Rubble: Wonderful that you are doing this for us Geo :)
Pema Pera: indeed!
Pema Pera: Hi Eliza!
Eliza Madrigal: Hello everyone!
SophiaSharon Larnia: HI Eliza :)
Adams Rubble: Hello Eliza :)
doug Sosa: :)
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Geo Netizen: Hi Eliza :)
Dakini Rhode: hi Eliza
Adams Rubble: Hello Resting :)
Pema Pera: Hi Thor, good seeing you again!
Eliza Madrigal: So good to be here.
Eliza Madrigal waves to Resting
Dakini Rhode: howdy Resting
Geo Netizen bows to Resting
Pema Pera: I hope Sophia doesn't have trouble logging in, Sophia Placebo I mean
Geo Netizen nods
SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Resting
Pema Pera: it must be rather early in the morning for her too
Adams Rubble: very early
Geo Netizen: Time zones is always an issue here in SL :)
Pema Pera: 6 am perhaps?
Pema Pera: Hi there, Fef!
Resting Thor: hi Fef
Eliza Madrigal: Hello Fefonz :)
Geo Netizen: Hi Fefonz
Fefonz Quan: Hello everybody :)
Adams Rubble: Hello fefonz :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Fefonz
Fefonz Quan: this is a theme session, is it?
Pema Pera: Perhaps we should just get started, with Geo here, since we have no idea when/whether Sophia will be able to join us
Pema Pera: yes, Fefonz
Fefonz Quan nods
Pema Pera: If Sophia makes it in, we can give her a note card with the chat so far
Geo Netizen: Perhaps since I’ve had the opportunity to read the log of the wonderful session in which Sophia so wonderfully expressed her experience of prayer it would be appropriate for me to start
Pema Pera: yes, please!
Geo Netizen nods
Geo Netizen: The nature of prayer is inextricably linked to the nature of the divine.
Geo Netizen: As a Franciscan, I posit that this nature is three fold:
Geo Netizen: God exists, God is Love and God is perfect;
Geo Netizen: all other attributes of the divine flow from these and are moderated by them.
Geo Netizen: Therefore, prayer is the pillow talk of lovers.
Geo Netizen: As the beloved, I bring many different attitudes and dispositions to prayer depending on my current emotional state:
Geo Netizen: I praise, cajole, petition, complain, promise, I am creative, I am repetitious, and sometimes, I just rest in the love.
Geo Netizen: Now the lover desires the presence of the beloved and if the beloved comes because of obligation, is present because it is a good thing to do, is disciplined to do the right thing, the lover delights in the presence of the beloved.
Geo Netizen: If, on the other hand, the beloved can hardly contain herself, arrives as early has she possibly can, wants to be no where else and with no one else but the lover, and she can hardly drag herself away when she must depart, this presence is the perfect gift of the beloved to the lover.
Geo Netizen: Over the millenniums, we have been pulled between these two.
Geo Netizen: It is better to have the disciplined though reluctant prayer than to have no prayer at all because the possibility of developing a deeper relationship is much greater but mandatory prayers can sap the experience of volition.
Pema Pera: Hi Sophia!
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Sophia :)
Geo Netizen bows deepy to Sophia
Pema Pera: I just IMed to Sophia the content of what we've discussed
sophia Placebo: Hi Pema all
Fefonz Quan: Hi Sophia
Pema Pera: so let us give her a couple minutes to read it all
Adams Rubble: Hello Sophia :)
Geo Netizen nods
--BELL--
Pema Pera: (but I didn't mean to stop you, Geo; you can of course continue, and then, when Sophia has read the previous part, she can respond)
Geo Netizen nods
Geo Netizen: We try to cultivate volition and some benefit greatly but other do not pray at all so then we react by legislating certain prayers but then respected spiritual people point out the loss of quality and we try to cultivate volition but then ...
Geo Netizen: This back and forth over the centuries has created a variety of diverse approaches to prayer in the Catholic Church.
Geo Netizen: This is an incredibly brief treatment of the topic of prayer but I should at least pause here for others to comment or question.
Pema Pera: So we play the female role and God the male role, do I understand that correctly, Geo, in this metaphor, so to speak?
Eliza Madrigal: exquisite, Geo
Geo Netizen: Whether the role of male or female is lover or beloved is not important
Pema Pera: but we are the beloved and God the lover?
Pema Pera: or also the other way around?
Geo Netizen: It is our experience based on our own being that matters
sophia Placebo: im sorry im late !
Geo Netizen: Yes Pema
sophia Placebo: Hi Geo , nice to meet you
Geo Netizen: I am honored to finally meet you Sophia
sophia Placebo: :)
Geo Netizen: Have you been able to review the log so far Sophia?
sophia Placebo: yes , God is love
Geo Netizen: I suggest it is fundamental to both Sufism and Franciscanism
sophia Placebo: it is really intersting that that is what all are looking and hanging on
sophia Placebo: so soft yet so strong
Geo Netizen: The strength comes from the softness
sophia Placebo: im too amazed at the diffrent emotion point you made
Geo Netizen listens
sophia Placebo: true , with true love one can express them all
Geo Netizen: God is all since perfect love express all
Geo Netizen: all good
sophia Placebo: well in islam as we are the third version of ibrahimic religions we are not that far
Geo Netizen: May I tell a story of Francis that may highlight that point?
sophia Placebo: prayer is too based on love and trust
sophia Placebo: sure !
Geo Netizen nods
Geo Netizen: In the early 1200’s, Francis of Assisi crossed battle lines near the city of Damietta, a large Muslim city on the route between Europe and Palestine, in order to convert Malik-al-Kamil, the sultan of Egypt.
Geo Netizen: What transpired was a lengthy dialogue between Francis and the Sultan and his Sufi wise men.
Geo Netizen: The only conversion that took place was a mutual conversion of the heart to great respect.
Geo Netizen: The effects of that encounter on Francis are quite evident in his actions and writings after the event.
Geo Netizen: As an example, he was clearly inspired by the devotion to daily prayers and began to promote the thrice daily (dawn, noon and dusk) recitation of the Angelus including the call to prayer by the ringing of church bells.
Geo Netizen: Our Muslim brethren have clearly set the better example of disciplined prayer by the faithful today but, I believe, we all still struggle to reach that perfection of prayer that requires true freedom of being.
--BELL--
Geo Netizen: I find my spiritual heritage to be close linked to that of Sufism.
Geo Netizen: I am very interested in your perspective on this Sophia
sophia Placebo: prayer is considered a purification act , one time at which poeple look down themselves honstly , i remmber one member here talking about a silent retreat where the first barrier she has to break was looking down self , we struggle all our life in the disciplin of ourselves , making it more powerfull stable
Geo Netizen: Stability is ultimately found in God as the lover and we the beloved
sophia Placebo: prayer - salat the five times a day - is a daily approtunity to strenthen our ability to look at self as it is , prayer that we talk about here is handfull at times when self seek the closeness
Geo Netizen: But the structure of salat is only the beginning
sophia Placebo: i seek the closeness of God , the feeling that he is everywhere , knowing everything , i seek the peace knowing he knows what im going through wit an eye of mercy , seeking the closeness by this whisper with him asking him the giudance , the power to the patienace
sophia Placebo: peayer thus rises the hope , bringing it infront of eye , im not alone ,im not forgotton , im not just a thing
Geo Netizen: I am the beloved
Geo Netizen: You are the beloved
sophia Placebo: but , as much as love as much as just , actually one cant put love with injust in one hand
Geo Netizen nods
sophia Placebo: the fear of Allah , of breaking hi laws , is also a factor
sophia Placebo: here where the love is at its peak
sophia Placebo: i go to him as sinner and confesss , thats how i declair the love
Geo Netizen: We act not out of fear of law but out of response to divine love
Geo Netizen nods
sophia Placebo: i acknowldge that he knows , he inside and outside , and that i acknowladge that i cant be without him
sophia Placebo: Truly Allah loveth those who turn unto Him, and loveth those who have a care for cleanness.
Geo Netizen: Not just knows but desires all that is good for me and you
sophia Placebo: and due to just too , we have too to work well
sophia Placebo: wishing alone is not enough
sophia Placebo: talikng alone is not enough
Geo Netizen: God is love and God is perfect, therefore God is perfect love
Geo Netizen: There is nothing that we can do that reduces God's love
sophia Placebo: one should work , one shooul thank God by using his powers in good way then pray to god that he did what he can and ask allah the good results the good outcomes wheather they appear good or not
sophia Placebo: there we have thankfullness for everything even the sins
Geo Netizen: God has alread done all good for us and we just need to cooperate
sophia Placebo: God give us free will
sophia Placebo: well something in btw free and not free
Geo Netizen: But still, in our pillow talk we can , cajole, petition, complain, promise ...
sophia Placebo: and this life is an exam , is a passing by
--BELL--
sophia Placebo: we were not created for it , but we decide what other life we want after it here , thats why we need a pure self ,free from arrogance envy and predjuce ,
Geo Netizen: Free will is essential for the lover-beloved relation
Geo Netizen: Otherwise it devolves in to just a power play
sophia Placebo: true
Geo Netizen nods
Geo Netizen: Yes ... we have the power to decide
sophia Placebo: yes and wrong decisions we done in the past are not an excuse to continou to future
Geo Netizen nods
sophia Placebo: for the door is always open to ask for forgivness and guidance
sophia Placebo: whatever you did
Geo Netizen: We do that too in pillow talk :)
sophia Placebo: :)
Geo Netizen: I hope that others feel free to challenge and question :)
Pila Mulligan: a question for Sophia and Geo, please: in addition to prayer, what helps us progess on the path to paradise?
sophia Placebo: good manners
Paradise Tennant: :))
Pila Mulligan: thank you Sophia
Geo Netizen: It is not possible for God to love Sophia more than he/she does
Geo Netizen: or to love Pila more
Geo Netizen: or anyone
Fefonz Quan loved the notion of prayer as an act of intimacy with (an ultimate( being
Eliza Madrigal: And would we say in this sense, that 'fear' is akin to 'awe'.. expansion of capacity?
Geo Netizen: What more can I do for God that to also love them
SophiaSharon Larnia: I love the idea of prayer being pillow talk
Geo Netizen smiles
sophia Placebo: God love me more than i dose , i was away from him but he keep put me in good company all time !
Geo Netizen nods
Geo Netizen: Yes ... we can move away from that love by our free will but
Geo Netizen: that does not change the love of God for us
Geo Netizen: we just create a distance by our action
Geo Netizen: or we move towards that love
Geo Netizen: the lover waits for us with longing
sophia Placebo: no , nor the justice , if you dont want God to Guid you so strongly , he will not , that your choice , you are on your own
SophiaSharon Larnia: is there a sense of essential being in this, of oneness?
Resting Thor: i wondered if you might want to speak more about this love, maybe characterize it some?
Geo Netizen: I am at peace when I rest in the embrase of my lover
Geo Netizen: If I truly care about what happens to someone
Geo Netizen: If when something good happens to them
Geo Netizen: my immediate response is joy
Geo Netizen: perhaps that is love
Resting Thor: the desire to make others happy is one definition :)
Fefonz Quan: i wondered about sin and punishment in that view
--BELL--
Geo Netizen: If something bad happens,
Geo Netizen: is my immediate response to feel their pain
Geo Netizen: or am I first jealous of their good
Geo Netizen: do I think, yes!!, they got what they deserved when bad happens
Geo Netizen: perhaps that is the opposite of love
sophia Placebo: out of just out of choice fef, one sins and would see the result now or then , what we are asked not to do is just to make us better
sophia Placebo: one is punshied and then relizes his mistakes
sophia Placebo: correct himself
Geo Netizen: I posit that we punish ourselves
sophia Placebo: it is natural consequences geo so yes we punish our selves
Fefonz Quan nods to geo
sophia Placebo: you lie , you go to trouble
Eliza Madrigal: It seems that every tradition has a central teaching/focus toward 'stirring'..which seems prayer?
Paradise Tennant: oft times think love is the emotional articulation of our connectedness - and the negative is an emotional articulation of something less real .. our selves :))
Geo Netizen: to dwell in the arms of the beloved is peace
Geo Netizen: to move away is into the dry and barren desert
Geo Netizen: And I am in the arms of the beloved when I love those beloved of the divine
Fefonz Quan: which are everyone?
Geo Netizen: Which I hope, by this time, everyone know I mean everyone here
SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles
Eliza Madrigal: Yes :)
Adams Rubble: :)
Geo Netizen: I understand the incredulity at this is a natural reaction
Geo Netizen: In case anyone wants to say yes ... but ... :)
Eliza Madrigal: We are still in the arms of the beloved in the desert?
Geo Netizen: Yes!!
Resting Thor: sounds like a blissful path :)
Geo Netizen: We have moved into the desert but that does not change the perfection of divine love
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Geo Netizen: the lover for us the beloved
Geo Netizen: Ahhh yes Resting ... the tie into Buddhism :)
Pema Pera: with the love being unconditional we can truly give up grasping and judging
SophiaSharon Larnia: does envisioning a 'he' (or 'she' or neither) enforce asense of separation, or can this be seen as one coming home
Geo Netizen: That as a difficulty flows strongly from our own background SophiaSharon
Geo Netizen: I posit that it ultimately makes no difference
SophiaSharon Larnia: thank you :)
sophia Placebo: true pema , no one knows what inside of each one of us , no one nows what one did and why ,and somtimes we dont know even our own deeds ,and the mercy is for eveyone
Geo Netizen: So when night comes to each of us, perhaps we can indulge in some pillow talk today :)
Adams Rubble: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Eye of mercy is a beautiful term, Sophia
Geo Netizen nods
--BELL--
sophia Placebo: but i can judge deeds , what i witness of deeds, though judging poeple is not my job
Geo Netizen: I judge my deeds ...
Geo Netizen: I look to see if I am moving towards divine love
Geo Netizen: or am I moving away from that love
Pema Pera: yes, that is so important, Sophia, to make a distinction between what someone does and what someone is
Fefonz Quan: can you say something about the relation of prayers and words?
Resting Thor: and perhaps something about our own divinity/
Resting Thor: ?
sophia Placebo: you must mean it fef
Geo Netizen: That someone is always the beloved of God ...
sophia Placebo: truly whole heartedly
Adams Rubble quietly says good night to all :)
Fefonz Quan: i meant can there be prayer with no word oriented act?
Geo Netizen bows to Adams
sophia Placebo: for muted poeple ?
sophia Placebo: still have their hearts
Pema Pera: Sophia and Geo, I am so impressed and happy to be here with you both, and with all of you here. Thank you so much for sharing your tender yet strong convictions and devotion! -- alas, I am traveling again, and perched in a corner of a bar, with my battery running low, so I'll have to read the rest in the chat log. Thank you again, and see you soon. I hope you'll continue next week, or whenever convenient!
Geo Netizen: Can you be in the of the beloved and not talk but still be in communion?
Fefonz Quan: no, regular people can also have non-verbal jestures/feelings/intentions/
Geo Netizen: *presence
Geo Netizen: Tis not the deepest communion without words at times
sophia Placebo: thanks pema for arranging wonderful session
Fefonz Quan: Bye Pema
sophia Placebo: fefe yes one can if one heart was really directed
Eliza Madrigal: yes thank you Pema
Pema Pera: thanks for rising way beyond my challenge :-)
Geo Netizen bows to Pema
Pema Pera: bows to all of us here
sophia Placebo: i must leave as well
Pila Mulligan: bye Sophia &Pema
Geo Netizen: Pax et bonum
sophia Placebo: been wonderfull session geo , hope we meet again
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye all
sophia Placebo: bye all
Eliza Madrigal: Bye sophia, Geo, Thank you both
Pema Pera: next week?
Fefonz Quan: Night Sophia, Geo,thanks for the theme talk
Pema Pera: oops
Pema Pera: hehehe
Geo Netizen: I have enjoyed out sharing very much
Eliza Madrigal: yes, quite stirring :)
Paradise Tennant: thank you all :)) and good night :))
Eliza Madrigal: Nite Paradise
Pema Pera: we'll have to arrange the next meeting by email :)
Pema Pera: bye everybody!
Dakini Rhode: nite all :)
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Pema
SophiaSharon Larnia: waves
Eliza Madrigal: Night Dakini
Pema Pera: and thank you, Dakini, for lending us your session!