2009.08.06 19:00 - Value of vulnerability

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Sylectra Darwin. The comments are by Sylectra Darwin.

    Maxine Walden: hi, doug, nice to see you, but awhile
    doug Sosa: hi maxine
    Maxine Walden: been awhile
    doug Sosa: but awhile too. couln't get my laptop to connect with graphics. ok now.
    Maxine Walden: we will be seeing each other in RL soon, at the retreat
    Maxine Walden: I have had trouble with SL lately, myself
    doug Sosa: yes, looking forward. wonder what it will be like?
    Maxine Walden: me too
    doug Sosa: were you at princeton earlier?
    Maxine Walden: at the first RL meeting?
    doug Sosa: yes.
    Maxine Walden: yes, I was.
    doug Sosa: so you are a veteran. I am prepared to be foolish.
    Maxine Walden: I expect this will be different. More a retreat than the previous one...
    doug Sosa: we can sit and contemplate each other.
    Maxine Walden: on, no, not a veteran at all. Think we will all be novices....
    Maxine Walden: maybe that is the idea....no expectations, into the unknown....
    doug Sosa: but then people act so - normal.
    Maxine Walden: isn't it interesting that as we face the unknown we expect to appear/be foolish?
    doug Sosa: no, i hope to.
    Maxine Walden: I know that others seem so 'normal' when I am feeling vulnerable
    doug Sosa: i like to fel vulnerable, only learn when make mistakes.
    doug Sosa: *feel
    Maxine Walden: a creative place to be, but I can still feel some 'ouch' in the midst of it
    Maxine Walden: hi, Gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Maxine and doug :)
    doug Sosa: hi gaya, wat does the chinese mean?
    doug Sosa: *what
    Gaya Ethaniel: Long time doug :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: It reads Gaya/Kaya - a name of an ancient Korean kingdom as well as a mountain.
    doug Sosa: well time for you to change clothes :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Mother's family originates from that kingdom apparently :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Change of clothes?
    doug Sosa: the left character means something like trust, and the right
    Maxine Walden: is someone the goc?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Not sure Maxine ...
    doug Sosa: didn't you used to dress differently in SL? or do i imagine that?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Please don't let me interrupt the discussion.
    Maxine Walden: just noticing the chatlog has not been claimed. I could claim it but would not really be able to make much commentary
    Gaya Ethaniel: I have a huge wardrobe so ... different a lot of times :)
    doug Sosa: i am just me think.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Please say more about vulnerability? I've been thinking about that in relation to arts recently too.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Sylectra :)
    Maxine Walden: oh, Sylectra, hi! Has been a very long time...nice to see you.
    Sylectra Darwin: Good to see you all :)
    Sylectra Darwin: It has been a long time.
    Maxine Walden: yes, moons and moons
    Sylectra Darwin: sorry to interrupt....Gaya, you were asking about vulnerability?
    doug Sosa: Vulnerability. it is using one's feeling as aknd of readar, it is necessary to pick up subtle differences, it is a virtue rather than a weakness.
    Gaya Ethaniel: No problem I actually interrupted that discussion between doug and Maxine.
    Gaya Ethaniel: I'm inclined to call that being open and vulnerability a liability that comes with.
    Maxine Walden: but still it can be painful to feel vulnerable, because one's sensitivity often 'hurts' a bit
    Gaya Ethaniel nods.
    Bellily Millar: greetings, don't have ya'll's schedule down yet
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Bellily :)
    doug Sosa: but welcome Belilly
    Maxine Walden: hi, Bellily, nice to meet you.
    Bellily Millar: thank you for the warm welcome
    Bellily Millar: what's the topic... vulnerability?
    doug Sosa: sot of.
    doug Sosa: it started with the upcoming retreat, then how to be there, what will happen. I said people still act s in tole, and i want to rbeak out, even if it looks (is) foolsih.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Corvi :)
    doug Sosa: *sot=sort
    Sylectra Darwin: Corvi, hello!
    Maxine Walden: hi, Corvi
    Bellily Millar: this is a better place than any to be completely vulnerable.
    doug Sosa: sylectra claimed it. now we have to be careful about what we say.
    Bellily Millar: grins corvi
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hey Gaya, Bellily, Syl, Doug, Maxine.
    doug Sosa: hi
    Maxine Walden: right, doug :)
    Bellily Millar: (heh?)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Bellily Millar: me-zipping-it
    Sylectra Darwin: I would be happy to censor out anything you guys ask me to.
    Maxine Walden: Bellily, do you know that there is a chatlog which we post; would you be comfortable being included?
    doug Sosa: that would draw attention to it.
    Bellily Millar: yes i know and yes i would be comfortable
    doug Sosa: that was longer than 90 sec?
    Maxine Walden: great, just checking
    Bellily Millar: are we in a 90s moment?
    Gaya Ethaniel: We were :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: laughs.
    Maxine Walden: maybe just meditative, tonight
    Bellily Millar: strolling in a little too late...
    Bellily Millar: i hope you don't think of me as being disrespectful
    Maxine Walden: not at all
    doug Sosa: not at all.
    Bellily Millar: ty
    doug Sosa: oh are we coislaize!
    doug Sosa: *socialized!
    Bellily Millar: smirk
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    doug Sosa: that might be our first smirk.
    Bellily Millar: continue with where you left off before i barged in
    Gaya Ethaniel: Sometimes we talk during 90 secs as well ... it's not a rule.
    doug Sosa: but each one of us barged in on what was here before, kid of like a slinkey going dow the stairs.
    doug Sosa: kid=kind
    doug Sosa: dow=down
    Maxine Walden: nice image, doug
    Bellily Millar: indeed
    Sylectra Darwin: And nice shorthand
    doug Sosa: so, vulnerability.
    Bellily Millar: vulnerability = being able to showcase your ugliness
    doug Sosa: bt sometimes being vulnerable lets the othe reveal themselves.
    Bellily Millar: without going back, although there might be fright and sweat involved
    Bellily Millar: exactly doug
    Bellily Millar: it's being a flagship, posterchild, of what it means to be human, the good and the bad
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: nods.
    doug Sosa: yesterday in a conversation. one colleage, male descriving anothe. "he is dissapointed in how his agee affects his sexuality (83 years). The woman says. Yes, it is so hard. The sixies were easier.
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Sylectra Darwin: lol
    Bellily Millar: ha! something to look forward to!
    Bellily Millar: do you think vulnerability lessens as we get older?
    Bellily Millar: or better: does self-consciousness?
    Maxine Walden: if we get more comfortable with ourselves self-consciousness might lessen
    Maxine Walden: accepting our humanness
    doug Sosa: no. but it shuts some up, some kust keep going despite.. I hope I am more like that.
    Sylectra Darwin: being comfortable with our vulnerability...possible?
    Bellily Millar: me too doug
    doug Sosa: yes, if we know how effective it is in learning about the world, allowing things to happen.
    Maxine Walden: wondering if that is possible, Sylectra, comfort with our vulnerability?
    doug Sosa: Thing f the pain of NOT being vulnerable. horrible.
    doug Sosa: *think of..
    Bellily Millar: i say yes, sy.ectra, because after time we are more open to the huge-ness of our humanity, the good, bad and ugly, vs when we are young and are modeling ourselves after a very narrrow segment
    Bellily Millar: agrees with doug - pain of not being vulnerable gets bigger and bigger
    doug Sosa: vulnerability is like a baby, like avilin, like soft grass, likfe flirting, like kittns playing, like seeing the world as it is.
    doug Sosa: avilin = violin
    Bellily Millar: avilin is a cool word too.. was wondering what it could mean...
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Maxine Walden: mixed up vanilla?
    Bellily Millar: ha!
    Sylectra Darwin: awww
    Gaya Ethaniel: So vulnerability is a 'natural' state?
    Sylectra Darwin: vulnerability is like humility and it is also likeable
    Bellily Millar: yes, when we consider we are fallible, easy-to-hurt creatures. anything that helps us survive is divine to me.
    Sylectra Darwin: smiles
    Sylectra Darwin: It's a good state of mind. Can we be vulnerable and have detachment?
    Gaya Ethaniel: What is the cause of vulnerability you think? Isn't a distorted view of our natural being by fear for oneself?
    doug Sosa: lack of protectiveness is necessary for going with the flow. detachment sounds more cut off, though I know it is a popular idea.
    Maxine Walden: not sure, Syl, the two don't seem to go together in my mind.
    Sylectra Darwin: not in mine either, Maxine.
    doug Sosa: "cause of vulnerability?" I don't thin it has a cause, except maybe natural responsiveness. Being invulnerable has a cause.
    Sylectra Darwin: maybe there is a way, though
    Bellily Millar: the two things: vulnerability and detachemnt?
    Bellily Millar: the best things about life come when we are not being self-protective... broad statement, I know, but love and comfort and all those nice things come more readily when we are bold enough to be vulnerable
    Sylectra Darwin: yes, Beilly
    Maxine Walden: richness of life and all comes from being vulnerable/connected
    Bellily Millar: that's what i think, maxine.
    Bellily Millar: yes
    doug Sosa: nothing left but to be it.
    Bellily Millar: 90 seconds again?
    Sylectra Darwin: When you go into any situation that you fear, and you say that you will let it change you, in a way that kind of position can protect you from harm. Maybe it's the fear causing the harm in that case.
    Bellily Millar: fear can certainly cause harm
    Maxine Walden: wonderful example, syl, or the fear of being changed, not in control
    doug Sosa: so here I am with all these amazing women!
    Bellily Millar: you lucky dog you, doug!
    Bellily Millar: giggle
    Gaya Ethaniel: Fear of what might happen to one or/and what one may do.
    Maxine Walden: yes, Gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: I'd very much like to loose the grip on that self ...
    Bellily Millar: the fear of what might happen or thinking of all the negative ways that could transpire is a dangerous way of being
    Bellily Millar: but so many times, more than not, we are getting all excited about negatives that don't happen
    Gaya Ethaniel: Those feelings tend to feel worse than what one feels at the acutal outcome, funny really.
    Bellily Millar: fear is the oposite of faith some say.
    Bellily Millar: indeed gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Vajra :)
    Vajra Raymaker: Hi Gaya, hi all. Sorry for lateness.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: pfft...I'm always late.
    Vajra Raymaker: : -)
    Maxine Walden: I am afraid I have to go, RL tugging at my sleeve. Lovely to see everyone. Hope to see you again soon.
    Sylectra Darwin: aww
    Gaya Ethaniel: Bye Maxine :)
    Maxine Walden: bye for now
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye Maxine..it was nice to see you again.
    doug Sosa: bye.
    Sylectra Darwin: Lovely to see you too MAxine.
    Bellily Millar: have a good evening/day/??, maxine.
    Bellily Millar: grins to you
    Vajra Raymaker: Are you discussing fear?
    doug Sosa: vulnerability
    Vajra Raymaker: ah
    Sylectra Darwin: hi Vajra
    Vajra Raymaker nods to Syl
    Bellily Millar: i'm about to fall asleep, so i'm scedaddling... thank you for being here and thank you for such interesting conversation! blessings-a-bling-bling to you all.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Nice to meet you Bellily, good night :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: grins..Night, you.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: sleep good.
    doug Sosa: bling
    Sylectra Darwin: ok Beililly
    Sylectra Darwin: hehe, have a good night
    Vajra Raymaker: What did you decide about vulnerability? That it is a state desirable to be in, or one to avoid? :-)
    Vajra Raymaker: or one not to have opinions about?
    doug Sosa: for me that it is part of, a way to, know the world.
    Vajra Raymaker: I see... something that affects your experience in total?
    Sylectra Darwin: I think we saw vulnerability as a gateway to new realizations and more courage.
    doug Sosa: its like taking the screens off the windows.
    doug Sosa: But I can fly out, you can fly in.
    Gaya Ethaniel: hm ... that's interesting ... so vulnerability as the other side of coin of courage.
    Vajra Raymaker: nice metaphor
    Gaya Ethaniel: brb
    doug Sosa: brb?
    Vajra Raymaker: My worry about making myself vulnerable always, however much I might value it, is that I think many people in the world despise it when they see it in others. It causes in them unnecessary pain, because it doesn't seem to them like it should be a goal of anyone to make himself vulnerrable
    doug Sosa: how much is vulnerability like taking risks?
    Vajra Raymaker: It is thought to be irrational, or too idealistic (and thus elitist)
    Gaya Ethaniel: back
    Vajra Raymaker: oh thank you for that question, let me consider
    Gaya Ethaniel: [brb - be right back]
    Sylectra Darwin: wb gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: ty :)
    Vajra Raymaker: It seems very close to taking risks to me Doug....
    Gaya Ethaniel: I'm still unsure if you really mean vunerability here instead of sensitivity ...
    Sylectra Darwin: Gaya, what do you think is the difference?
    doug Sosa: sensitivity seems to me more on the surface, vulnerability is at the heart.
    Gaya Ethaniel: For me sensitivity is neutral while vulnerability is laced with fear.
    doug Sosa: oops, i missed the opportunity to ask a question rather than spout off.
    Gaya Ethaniel: But then it could be my lack of understanding subtle meanings of the English words :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks for the discussion. Will head back to bed now :)
    Vajra Raymaker: Night Gaya : -)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Good night :)
    Sylectra Darwin: nite!
    doug Sosa: bye
    doug Sosa: bye
    Vajra Raymaker: If you make yourself really vulnerable it is like the man who gave his body to the lioness to eat
    Vajra Raymaker: leaving it up to the lioness to decide whether she was hungry enough to eat
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: G'night all.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: it's time for my bed too.
    doug Sosa: A child yesterday said "i can't tell if I am eating my food or it is eating me."
    Sylectra Darwin: okies Corvi
    Sylectra Darwin: hehe
    Sylectra Darwin: cool.
    Vajra Raymaker: night Cor
    Sylectra Darwin: interesting, Vajra.
    doug Sosa: night..
    Vajra Raymaker: : -)
    Sylectra Darwin: Well, I need to be hitting the hay myself.
    Sylectra Darwin: Got work early in the morning.
    Vajra Raymaker: Well good meeting you
    doug Sosa: bye all, me too.
    Sylectra Darwin: good meeting you too!
    Vajra Raymaker: both, thanks
    Sylectra Darwin: Night to both of you :)
    Vajra Raymaker: interesting topic
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