2014.01.12 07:00 - Glued Salami

The Guardian for this meeting was Bleu Oleander. The comments are by Bleu Oleander.

Catrinamonblue Resident: 's current display-name is "Catrinamonblue".
Bleu Oleander: 's current display-name is "Bleu".
Bleu Oleander: hiya Cat
Catrinamonblue Resident: Good Morning Bleu :)
Bleu Oleander: how are u?
Catrinamonblue Resident: recovering from a party last night :)
Bleu Oleander: was fun at least?
Catrinamonblue Resident: oh yes!! a lot of fun :)
Bleu Oleander: so makes recovery worth it then :)
--BELL--
Catrinamonblue Resident: yup :) I am lucky it seems, I only have a bit of a headache :) others seem to be a bit sicker than that this morning ;)
Bleu Oleander: strategies for dealing with too much partying ... :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Bleu Oleander: seems one can have too much of a good thing :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: laughs.... so it seems :)
Bleu Oleander: the body always tells you .... but do we listen?
Catrinamonblue Resident: lol but mom... I`m having too much fun
Bleu Oleander: lol
Bleu Oleander: been there .... said that!
Catrinamonblue Resident: smiles
Bleu Oleander: hiya Lila :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: morning Lila :)
Lila Darkmatter: Hi Cat, Bleu ~ Good Morning :)
Lila Darkmatter: wow Bleu... appearance reflective of disposition?
Bleu Oleander: hmmm in what way?
Bleu Oleander: dark?
Lila Darkmatter: yes
Bleu Oleander: no ... just different
Bleu Oleander: playing with different looks
Lila Darkmatter adjusts lighting.... ah, in daylight quite different
Bleu Oleander: have been listening to an interesting online class
Bleu Oleander: Yale professor on "death"
Bleu Oleander: has been taking interesting turns
Lila Darkmatter: that sounds familiar to me.. is it an Itunes U course?
Bleu Oleander: and will probably relate to some issues with "her'
Bleu Oleander: yale online courses
Lila Darkmatter: I think I may have downloaded that
Bleu Oleander: very interesting!
Bleu Oleander: started with Plato and his discussion of the soul
Bleu Oleander: now on "personal identity"
Bleu Oleander: hey skating Aggers
Lila Darkmatter giggles at Aggers dramatic entrance
Catrinamonblue Resident: morning Aggers :)
Agatha Macbeth skates in
Lila Darkmatter: wonderful :)
Agatha Macbeth: Afternoon Cat :)
Agatha Macbeth: And hello Lil & Bleuji ♥
Bleu Oleander: ♥ *•.¸♥¸.•* ♥
Lila Darkmatter: That's an interesting observation to make already, Bleu, regarding the film... the role of "death"
Agatha Macbeth: Oh wow Bleu you certainly did change your appearance!
Bleu Oleander: you gave me the idea ha!
Agatha Macbeth: You look great
Lila Darkmatter: yes
Bleu Oleander: ty !
Bleu Oleander: bleu-ed up my skin a bit
Lila Darkmatter: funny - it IS the same course
Bleu Oleander: great course
Bleu Oleander: lots of fun points to debate
Agatha Macbeth: Which course is this?
Bleu Oleander: http://oyc.yale.edu/philosophy/phil-176
Agatha Macbeth: Thanks
Bleu Oleander: part on personal identity is very interesting to think about re: "her"
Bleu Oleander: what is essential?
Lila Darkmatter: and is that individual
--BELL--
Bleu Oleander: so far he's discussed three theories of personal identity . . . soul, body, and personality . . . he included the brain as the best version of the body theory
Lila Darkmatter: the word soul seems antiquated in our time, but wonder if we replace it with "consciousness"
Agatha Macbeth: To me it's something way different
Lila Darkmatter: yes?
Bleu Oleander: just read Plato's Phaedo ... his dialogue on the soul
Agatha Macbeth: Mm
Agatha Macbeth: Ah good old Plato
Agatha Macbeth: Love his cave
Lila Darkmatter: what is soul?
Bleu Oleander: so Plato came up with the idea of immortality of the soul
Bleu Oleander: a dualist at heart
Agatha Macbeth: 'I challenge you to a duelism sir'
Lila Darkmatter grins
Bleu Oleander: ha ha!
Lila Darkmatter: the mind/body split
Bleu Oleander: soul/body split
Bleu Oleander: interchangeable in some ways
Lila Darkmatter: it feels to me a lot about terminology we use... 'soul' I guess, feels like a more religious term
Lila Darkmatter: which was more of a given 'back in the day'
Bleu Oleander: yes
Catrinamonblue Resident: nods
Bleu Oleander: although people still use it
Lila Darkmatter nods
Bleu Oleander: so what does it mean to be the same person from one day to the next?
Agatha Macbeth: These things seem to belong to the province of religion only because they are not quantifyable empirically I think
Bleu Oleander: or one year to the next?
Agatha Macbeth: Good question that
Agatha Macbeth: Can we and do we change?
Bleu Oleander: how much can change and still remain the same person?
Lila Darkmatter: yes... was thinking too of music with "soul" and whether that is the same as music with "heart"
Agatha Macbeth: For me it's the same yes
Agatha Macbeth: But that's just me :p
Lila Darkmatter: :)
Bleu Oleander: we do change, in many ways all the time
Bleu Oleander: but what is it that makes us feel we are the same person?
Bleu Oleander: what is essential?
Lila Darkmatter: but we still make choices based on memory
Lila Darkmatter: and create the continuity
Bleu Oleander: if we lose our memory, are we the same person?
Lila Darkmatter: hard question
Bleu Oleander: he talked about a "space-time worm"
Agatha Macbeth: Hehe
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Bleu Oleander: with different slices or stages
Bleu Oleander: kinda like salami
Agatha Macbeth: Wonder if Dr Who knows about it?
Lila Darkmatter: ? lol
Lila Darkmatter: salami time?
Bleu Oleander: if you slice it up its stilll the same salmai
Bleu Oleander: lol
Agatha Macbeth: The whole is the sum of the parts?
Bleu Oleander: but what is the glue that keeps the parts together?
Catrinamonblue Resident: but once sliced it can never be put back together again
Agatha Macbeth ponders glued salami
Bleu Oleander: so interesting to think about "her"
Bleu Oleander: is an OS enough?
Lila Darkmatter: agreed... really on the edge of my seat waiting for folks to see it ^.^
Agatha Macbeth: Operating system?
Bleu Oleander: will see it tomorrow evening :)
Lila Darkmatter: yay :)
Agatha Macbeth: Ooh what's happening tomorrow?
Bleu Oleander: movie "her"
Agatha Macbeth: <-Nosey
Agatha Macbeth: Ah
Bleu Oleander: guy falls in love with his OS
Catrinamonblue Resident: I will hopefully be seeing it this week (torrent)
Lila Darkmatter smiles
Agatha Macbeth: He falls in love with Windows?
Agatha Macbeth: >.<
Bleu Oleander: a Siri creation
Catrinamonblue Resident: laughs
Catrinamonblue Resident: not sure many people even like windows :)
Agatha Macbeth: Ok, now you need to explain Siri to me @.@
Lila Darkmatter: not so far off... that's one thing I can say without giving anything away... that the closeness to our reality (in the film) was spooky
Bleu Oleander: haha
Agatha Macbeth: Man I need a dictionary here
Bleu Oleander: Siri is Apples "ask me something" system for your iPhone
Agatha Macbeth: Oh
Lila Darkmatter: it wasn't that far or a stretch... didn't feel like "science fiction"
Lila Darkmatter: *of
Catrinamonblue Resident: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1798709/
Agatha Macbeth: I wouldn't have a clue about that then
Catrinamonblue Resident: link to the movie page
Bleu Oleander: exactly Lila
Bleu Oleander: but are we thinking clearly on that one?
--BELL--
Agatha Macbeth: Thinking clearly is a topic on its own
Bleu Oleander: so begs the question what is essential
Bleu Oleander: will be interesting to juxtapose this class with the movie :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: from everything I have read and from the disscussions I have heard I feel that as long as needs are being met and no one else is being hurt then what difference does it make. Though for me I don`t think I could live without the human interation of touch. I need touch
Lila Darkmatter: cat's out of the bag I think... I think we've already made decisions to give up things that may be essential.. and now grapple with how to live with those choices
Bleu Oleander: well as a society we make lots of decisions based on "personhood"
Agatha Macbeth: ^.^
Agatha Macbeth: That darned cat
Bleu Oleander: so can we procreate with "Siri's"?
Agatha Macbeth: (Not you Cat ;-)
Lila Darkmatter: :))
Bleu Oleander: are they different species?
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Bleu Oleander: what defines a species?
Lila Darkmatter: I like that question... about 'what is alien'
Agatha Macbeth: Different from Schroedinger's probably (tho that's a supposition)
Bleu Oleander: are we re-defining species?
Lila Darkmatter: actually the film has a lot to say about whether so-called 'enlightenment' is something other than humanity...and which is/would be preferable
Bleu Oleander: big questions ... I think the movie will make us think about a lot of things
Bleu Oleander: enlightenment of what or whom?
Agatha Macbeth: Think enlightenment is largely in the eye of the beholder
Bleu Oleander: is there an objective "enlightenment"?
Lila Darkmatter: right... there is a fundamental difference between the two and it isn't necessarily all about being without a body
Lila Darkmatter: haha, back to whether what is essential is an individual matter
Agatha Macbeth nods
Bleu Oleander: :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Bleu Oleander: lots of "lines" being challenged
Lila Darkmatter: I agree with you Cat, re touch, but then wonder... what if one 'forgets' that touch is important.. and copes without that...
Lila Darkmatter: or many do
Bleu Oleander: have we lost a layer of complexity then?
Lila Darkmatter: there are interesting questions regarding how the ease of online porn has changed the dating world and what people need, or think they need, from one another
Agatha Macbeth: Maybe we got peeled
Agatha Macbeth: That's an interesting thought Lil
Bleu Oleander: well there is the larger issue of the society as a whole
Bleu Oleander: not just about individual needs?
Lila Darkmatter nods
Lila Darkmatter: I guess I'm wondering about the lines between even knowing what 'needs' are
Bleu Oleander: so are we falling in love with ourselves?
Bleu Oleander: our own creations?
Lila Darkmatter: hmmm
Agatha Macbeth: Easier to do in SL I think
Bleu Oleander: computer programs are giving us what we want
Bleu Oleander: we are creating them
Bleu Oleander: and loving them
Lila Darkmatter: yes... but do we love them or the intelligence that is in them...
Lila Darkmatter: which is unlocatable
Bleu Oleander: we have created that intelligence
Catrinamonblue Resident: maybe we need to differentiate love as in a love of the inanimate and a love of the living
Lila Darkmatter: not sure... we create the outlines that enable that intelligence to come through perhaps
Bleu Oleander: we've created an intelligence that gives us what we want and we love it
Lila Darkmatter: part of the question is what is living... this OS did seem alive.. and in fact was alive in a certain way
Lila Darkmatter: learning, growing
Agatha Macbeth: A bit like HAL
Lila Darkmatter: yes!
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Bleu Oleander: so is it the same species as us?
Agatha Macbeth: 'Daisy daisy'
Lila Darkmatter: :)
Lila Darkmatter: maybe so... our offspring, in a sense
Bleu Oleander: we retain ultimate power over it ... can always unplug
Lila Darkmatter: there are some other films, animes especially, that play with the point at which we can't unplug
--BELL--
Lila Darkmatter: so many directions with this!
Bleu Oleander: indeed
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes!
Agatha Macbeth: Better than the topic
Lila Darkmatter: hehhee
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Bleu Oleander: i thought this was the topic lol
Agatha Macbeth: (which I can't even remember!)
Lila Darkmatter: I think in SL, but maybe in all relationships, there comes a point at which the relationship is "inconvenient" - what happens then? what if we could have a relationship that was never inconvenient?
Bleu Oleander: what would that look like?
Catrinamonblue Resident: in what way inconvenient
Lila Darkmatter: well an OS is there only when you turn it on
Bleu Oleander: its not always convenient our relationship with ourselves haha
Agatha Macbeth: Maybe the inconvenience only arises because we ourselves evolve?
Lila Darkmatter: right, hehehe
Lila Darkmatter nodding
Bleu Oleander: power, the ability to turn on ...
Bleu Oleander: perhaps more about power than convenience?
Agatha Macbeth: What worked 20 years ago may well not work now
Lila Darkmatter: yes... always doing what you think would be best
Bleu Oleander: well at least what you want
Bleu Oleander: so what relationships are acceptable for a society?
Bleu Oleander: they used to commit people who had relationships with imaginary people?
Lila Darkmatter giggles
Agatha Macbeth: There goes me then :p
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Bleu Oleander: ha ha!
Lila Darkmatter: I'm out too
Catrinamonblue Resident: i`ve danced with faries all my life so count me in with the rest of you
Bleu Oleander: castles in the sky ... we've all moved in at some point
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes
Lila Darkmatter: the funny thing is that as we 'evolve' past certain things, it feels as though we also long for nostalgic things at the same time
Agatha Macbeth: Actually isn't everybody in SL having a relationship with 'imaginary' people?
Agatha Macbeth: And yes LIl, agreed
Bleu Oleander: good question
Lila Darkmatter: I know a lot of techies who love to knit
Bleu Oleander: isn't there a "real" person behind the avatar though?
Agatha Macbeth: I love lots of nits who love to tech ;-)
Lila Darkmatter: right.... I feel SL is quite different
Lila Darkmatter: although the lines people draw for the 'way they are in SL' do matter
Bleu Oleander: we sense the difference between human controlled avatars and bots, right?
Lila Darkmatter: not just parroting... but in the film she isn't either
Agatha Macbeth: Pretty polly
Bleu Oleander: so not so big a step to computer controlled avatars
Lila Darkmatter: then people talk about if we are dreaming within dreaming and each characters in one another's dreams... philosophically we're right there
Agatha Macbeth: Back to frogs and butterflies
Lila Darkmatter: because in a sense we 'can' turn another off... we can walk away or not listen, etc
Bleu Oleander: can OS's dream?
Bleu Oleander: like screen savers :)
Lila Darkmatter: suppose if programmers thought it served a useful purpose... to power down
Lila Darkmatter: yes, hah
Agatha Macbeth: 'Will I dream Dr Chandra?'
Bleu Oleander: oi
Bleu Oleander: brain starts to hurt lol
Lila Darkmatter: stretching
Agatha Macbeth: Doctor!
Lila Darkmatter: I need a nap, lol
Catrinamonblue Resident: just thought of a book I read years ago called `Siler Metal Lover`by tanith Lee
Bleu Oleander: I need more coffee :)
Agatha Macbeth: Yes Cat?
Catrinamonblue Resident: have to go look but think it`s a similar idea but other way around, girl falls in love
Agatha Macbeth: Sounds familiar so far
Catrinamonblue Resident: don`t know why I didn`t think of it earlier sry
Catrinamonblue Resident: that`s all I really rmember of it at the moment, I have to check my shelves and see if I still have it
Agatha Macbeth: Please do
Agatha Macbeth: Would be interesting
Catrinamonblue Resident: sory it`s silver metal lover
Bleu Oleander: so that's an interesting question ... would we accept the reverse of the movie?
--BELL--
Bleu Oleander: or are we used to reducing women to just a voice in our heads lol
Lila Darkmatter: hahahahahaha....yeah..... what is a woman is a big issue in this film too
Agatha Macbeth: So much thinking to do on a sunday
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Bleu Oleander: want to see the movie today but will have to wait until tomorrow lol
Lila Darkmatter: in the pause I thought about relationships and how we are perhaps programming ourselves and one another all the time
Bleu Oleander: yes!
Lila Darkmatter: when we convey wants/needs/boundaries
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes
Bleu Oleander: people we hang out with have a huge influence on us and vice versa
Lila Darkmatter: absolutely
Agatha Macbeth: Ain't that true?
Bleu Oleander: PaBers included!
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Agatha Macbeth: PaBers especially!
Lila Darkmatter: and we live in a world that isn't as circumscribed by environment... we have choices of environment, like PaB for sure
Lila Darkmatter: so we become aware of the programming only because we have input in it
Bleu Oleander: so we've moved from nature's environments to increasingly environments that we create
Catrinamonblue Resident: nods
Lila Darkmatter: seems so
Bleu Oleander: what we consider to be human friendly lol
Lila Darkmatter: which makes the power pyramid really relevant but we don't have time to solve that issue today ;-)
Bleu Oleander: hardly!!!
Catrinamonblue Resident: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_S.I.L.V.E.R._Series
Lila Darkmatter: Oh, thanks Cat
Bleu Oleander: thanks Cat
Agatha Macbeth: Pyramids rock
Catrinamonblue Resident: link for the book if any interested
Agatha Macbeth: TY
Bleu Oleander: ok have to go and influence a few peeps haha
Bleu Oleander: thanks for an interesting conversation!
Catrinamonblue Resident: :) bye Bleu
Agatha Macbeth: Influence well Bleuji
Lila Darkmatter: bye Bleu, thanks so much
Bleu Oleander: take care and have a great week
Lila Darkmatter: you too! look forward to upcoming talks ^^
Bleu Oleander: indeed!
Bleu Oleander: byeeee
Lila Darkmatter: "Robots have replaced human labor on earth, causing massive unemployment in a world devastated by pollution and natural disasters. Then Electronic Metals releases a new line: performing artists and sexual companions designed to entertain human partners. Jane, a rich, lonely, and insecure 16-year-old, meets one, the minstrel Silver, and falls passionately in love, despite revulsion at the idea of preferring a mechanical man to a human. She gives up everything she has known for him, and discovers herself. Silver becomes more and more "human" in loving her—a clever illusion created by his programming. Or is it? This unstable society can't afford any evidence that some robots might be indistinguishable from humans. Tragedy is inevitable."
Lila Darkmatter: (plot summary)
Catrinamonblue Resident: do you think it`s relevant to the current discussions
Agatha Macbeth: Looks like we're in Bladerunner territory
Lila Darkmatter: so IS tragedy inevitable? ::suspense music::::
Lila Darkmatter: quite relevant definitely
Lila Darkmatter: really the film is just giving us a springboard
Agatha Macbeth: Boing
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Lila Darkmatter: ^.^
Agatha Macbeth: Spring is a while off yet
Lila Darkmatter: I had insomnia and was up in the middle of the night, a few nights ago, and said to the person I was IMing with, that they only existed for me at 3am... it was a joke
Lila Darkmatter: but ... hm :)
Agatha Macbeth: Yes
Agatha Macbeth: There is truth in that
Catrinamonblue Resident: makes you think yes
Lila Darkmatter nods
Agatha Macbeth: Just trying to work out what time that is for me :p
Lila Darkmatter: haha
Agatha Macbeth: Ah, 8AM not so bad
Lila Darkmatter: 1 hr before 1am PaB time
Agatha Macbeth: Exactly :p
Lila Darkmatter: I'm prgrammed to think in terms of "PaB time"
Agatha Macbeth: Time is relative, dinner time doubly so
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Lila Darkmatter: have enjoyed being with you ladies but must away
Agatha Macbeth: Aww
Catrinamonblue Resident: me as well :)
Lila Darkmatter: hoping to sign on later
Agatha Macbeth: Sunday calls
Catrinamonblue Resident: much to do today :)
Agatha Macbeth: Mm
Lila Darkmatter: be good
Lila Darkmatter smiles at Cat
Agatha Macbeth: Why?
Lila Darkmatter: hah...
Catrinamonblue Resident: you to :) Bye Lila
Agatha Macbeth skates off
Catrinamonblue Resident: Bye Aggers
Lila Darkmatter: we're awfully cute today
Lila Darkmatter waves
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)