2010.01.03 08:00 - Guardians Seeing PaB

This Guardian meeting was attended by Calvino, Eden, Eliza, Eos, genesis, Lia, Maxine, stevenaia, Riddle, and Zen.  Log posted and commented by Calvino.

Things got underway - the standout feature was a spectacular party dress and outfit worn by Eden.  It was worth the price of admission :)

Eliza Madrigal: Morning Cal!
Calvino Rabeni: Good morning !
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Maxine! :)
Maxine Walden: hi, Eliza and Cal
Eliza Madrigal: All well? Are you relaxed and refreshed after the holidays?
Maxine Walden: actually, yes, quite refreshed, how about you>
Eliza Madrigal: yes I feel a bit energized I think...
Eliza Madrigal: Things don't get back to normal here until tomorrow so we'll see :)
Maxine Walden: ah, right, back to school and perhaps to work
Eliza Madrigal nods
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Eden!
Maxine Walden: hi Eden
Eliza Madrigal: great outfit :)
Maxine Walden: yes, rather spectacular, Eden
Eden Haiku: Hi. Thanks.
Eden Haiku: Yesterday's writers party outfit...
Eliza Madrigal: some wild writers
Eliza Madrigal giggles
Eden Haiku: ;-)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Eos! :)
Maxine Walden: hi, Eos
Eden Haiku: Good morning Eos!
Zen Arado: Hi All
Eden Haiku: Hello Zen! Nice colors!
Eos Amaterasu: Good morning, Eden, Max, Eli, Zen, Cal
Maxine Walden: hi, Zen
Zen Arado: thanks
Lia Rikugun: hello everybody, happy new year!
Maxine Walden: hi Lia
Eden Haiku: Happy new Year Lia!
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen, Lia :) Happy New Year!
Zen Arado: brightened myself up for the new year
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Lia, HNY!
Maxine Walden: yes, Happy Yew Year to everyone
Eden Haiku: Nice Zen ;-)
Eliza Madrigal: 'always look on the briiight side of life' :::whistles::::
Eden Haiku: I like the glasses too...
Eden Haiku: Chnaged your presciption? ;-)
Eliza Madrigal: :))

There are ways we affect one another's lives - ideas taken from the group and acted upon at some length.

Calvino Rabeni: Eden, I did the "100 accomplishments" list - thanks for the instigation
Eos Amaterasu: In itself your first accomplishment of the New Year?
Eden Haiku: Oh! Great, Calvino.
Maxine Walden: sounds like quite a task, Calvino
Zen Arado: you found 100?
Calvino Rabeni: Number 100 was "finished this list" :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: great !
Eliza Madrigal got to 60, admittedly, but they were an inspiring 60
Calvino Rabeni: It wasn't hard up to about 85, then I was in the home stretch
Eliza Madrigal is not attached to results...heheh
Eden Haiku: ;-)
Zen Arado: have to try it
Eden Haiku: And did the New Year resolution came easily to you?
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Eliza Madrigal: To me? Yes, thus far definitely
Calvino Rabeni: Really, I should start doing that one of these years :)
Zen Arado: it is the exercise of doing it that os good
Eliza Madrigal: Well it isn't like 1. walk the dog more, 2. buy a dog... it is more a framework... like we go into the 90 seconds with sometimes :)
Eos Amaterasu wonders about Eliza's sequencing... :-)
Eliza Madrigal: For me it is 'right time- expansiveness within limitations'....hehe... sounds like a corporate slogan I guess
Zen Arado: sounds good Eliza :)
Zen Arado: our new slogan
Calvino Rabeni: On zen's idea - I will use it with an exercise like the "100 words" homework from stim's workshop - to let the accomplishments soak in
Eliza Madrigal: hmm
Calvino Rabeni: That is the 2nd step actually realizing they were done
Zen Arado: so long as it doesn't boost our egos
Calvino Rabeni: Objectivity
Calvino Rabeni: and being alive
Calvino Rabeni: funny combination?
Eden Haiku: No the point is to feel good enough about yourself you then dare to make a challenging resolution for the New Year.
Zen Arado: remember Ozymandias !
Eden Haiku: Ozymandias?
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Gen! :)
Calvino Rabeni: Oprah is often about stoking up self-esteem
Eos Amaterasu: Hy Gen
Lia Rikugun: hello gen
Eden Haiku: Hello Genesis.
genesis Zhangsun: Hi Everyone!
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Riddle :)
Maxine Walden: hi, gen and riddle
Lia Rikugun: hello riddle
Riddle Sideways: Hi
Zen Arado: found on a scrap of paper in the desert - look upon my mighty works and tremble
Eden Haiku: Good morning Riddle,
Zen Arado: Hi Gen, Riddle
Eos Amaterasu: Thing is to note both positive and negative arrogance
Eliza Madrigal: hm
Eos Amaterasu: negative arrogance: self-absorption in "how pathetic am I"
Calvino Rabeni: yes
Zen Arado: yes
Eliza Madrigal: yes "I am the *most* pathetic"
Eos Amaterasu: so more objective, yes

That "ego" talk often feels a bit heavy - so naturally, levity soon appears.

Eliza Madrigal giggles
Zen Arado: eog looking for importance
Eden Haiku: Eog is a new guest here ;-)
Zen Arado: either pos or neg will do
Eden Haiku: I like Eog!
Maxine Walden: Eog is a mixed up character
Eos Amaterasu: long lost relative :-)
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Eden Haiku: Yes, a confused one. Too much Confucius reading, poor guy.
Zen Arado: :)
Maxine Walden: right...scrambled a bit
Eliza Madrigal: wobbly
Eden Haiku: Is he male or female? We should ask Archmage!
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Maxine Walden: a bit of both, I would imagine, Eden
Calvino Rabeni: Eog definitely contains rum, during the holidays
Eos Amaterasu nogs
Zen Arado: like egg nog ?
Eliza Madrigal prefers brandy
Calvino Rabeni: Yes a lot like that
Eliza Madrigal: okay... lots of silliness

OK, playtime's over for now, according to two simultaneous remarks.

Eliza Madrigal: but do we have a guardian topic today?
Calvino Rabeni: * Business for Guardians *
Calvino Rabeni: ... hic
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Riddle Sideways: o thought that was your topic
Eos Amaterasu: GoC for Dummies
Eden Haiku: ;-)
Eliza Madrigal: usually that's my topic, but hm
Zen Arado: no I am the expert
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks Gen, for organizing the party with Tarmel and others. It was great fun

Eden knows how to play; also when to get down to the business at hand.  A recent previous session discussed the PaB group itself, reflectively. What followed was an active, somewhat chaotic mix of ideas and issues about the PaB group.  As is often the case, the ideas were proposed, touched, tossed around like a mixed vegetable salad, lightly sauteed rather than thoroughly cooked.

• Whether the PaB Pavilion is being adequately staffed.
• Whether there should be different expectations about entering and leaving sessions.
  
• Focus and themes, often thought of as being in tension with creativity and play.
• The relevance of spontaneous non-topical talk and casual "chit chat".
  
• Being aware of newcomers' impressions, and facilitation.
• Whether the character of the group has changed over time.
  
• The subjective feeling or "energy" of the experience of attending PaB sessions, and whether it indicates anything "objective" about the state of the group.
  
• The character of the PaB Pavilion itself.
  
• Being (or coming back to) "experience".
• Whether / how guardians should be directive and/or "push".
  
• Whether /how different-seeming perspectives - like political philosophy - can be brought into PaB.
  

Eden Haiku: I read the last posted chat log. have you? Doug seems to have concerns.
genesis Zhangsun: sure!
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I was at that session
genesis Zhangsun: yes could you say more Eden?
Zen Arado: what about?
Eden Haiku: yes, the party was such a good idea Genesis!
Riddle Sideways: was good idea, but I missed it
Riddle Sideways: need to repeat it
Eliza Madrigal: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/2010/01/2010.01.02_19:00_-_Working_with_Solidity
genesis Zhangsun: nice to hang out and let loose some time and yes maybe we can repeat it
Eden Haiku: One of the concerns was about people being late for the sessions. Pema answered he liked the idea of a 24 hours coffee place.
Zen Arado: sounds good
Zen Arado: place to meet more infromally
Eden Haiku: I like the ebb and flow of the sessions very much.
Eliza Madrigal: It seems a good idea in many ways, but does it seem doug is talking about more containment than less...
Eliza Madrigal: like a definite structure for theme sessions in order to stay on track
Riddle Sideways: the village has a bar
Eliza Madrigal: it is difficult
Eden Haiku: No, I think Pema meant the PaB sessions would become a 24hour open space...
Eliza Madrigal: Ahh
Eden Haiku: With all the coming and going it implies...
Riddle Sideways: some of us remember doing 6+ hour sessions
Riddle Sideways: very tiring
genesis Zhangsun: so Pema is for the openness- the dropping in and out and Doug is not?
Maxine Walden: Steve just dropped in
Eliza Madrigal: :) Hi Steve
Zen Arado: Hi teve
stevenaia Michinaga: I often drop
Eliza Madrigal: Seems to me Pema is for many options
Lia Rikugun: hello steve
Eliza Madrigal: ?
Maxine Walden: good to see you, Steve
Eos Amaterasu: Pema Pera: one option is to acquire everybody to come in on time, at the hour; but I like the idea of a neighborhood cafe, where you can drop in at any time
stevenaia Michinaga: mornign (for me)
stevenaia Michinaga: morning
stevenaia Michinaga: and happy New year
Eos Amaterasu: I think Pema meant didn't mean 24-hour sessions, but like cafe, session where you can drop in
Eliza Madrigal: Happy New Year, Steve :)
stevenaia Michinaga: better wait till ppl have rezzed
genesis Zhangsun: I think Doug was speaking out of some frustration about what happened during our last theme session on PaB and Sustainability
genesis Zhangsun: it was a large group and the discussion was rather unfocused
Eos Amaterasu: Can u say more, Gen?
genesis Zhangsun: I think this is just part of the experience...
Maxine Walden: yes, please, gen
Eden Haiku: One night, I was checking if I could access the PaB pavilion through Sparkle so I went there at 11pM SLT , expecting there would be no one.
genesis Zhangsun: and I feel that the more focused the theme session leaders can become, setting the parameters of the topic the easier it is to have a focused discussion
genesis Zhangsun: at the moment I think Doug and I are still feeling out a very broad topic
Eden Haiku: I was surprised Pila rezzed there after a few minutes,. He helped me with my settings. I could disconnect and relogg with him telling me if it worked. It was a very nice experience. And I had the chance to wish him Happy New Year!
genesis Zhangsun: in my experience "theme sessions" seem to work better when the topic is narrow
Eos Amaterasu: I think there's two aspects: session focus, and returning to direct, personal experience of PaB both in talking about and doing during the sessions
Eos Amaterasu: they might be slightly different aspects
Calvino Rabeni: I think, both open and focused have their place, the question is, when to do them
Eos Amaterasu: the themes are pretty broad to begin with
Eliza Madrigal: it can be difficult to do even in a workshop setting rather than PaB, and yes perhaps it Sustainability topic is just beginning to be defined. Sometimes in a workshop a note is prepared saying that "comments/ questions will be welcomed at the half hr, etc..."
Eliza Madrigal: Would that help?
Eos Amaterasu: Yes, having clear protocol for theme sessions is good
genesis Zhangsun: yes ELiza perhaps
Eos Amaterasu: Dialog for twenty minutes; then multilogue
genesis Zhangsun: Eos would you like to say more about returning to experience?
Calvino Rabeni: Some of the PaB sessions consist of nearly 100% chit chat, however, no presence OR theme
Eden Haiku: I strongly disagree with that.
Zen Arado: different ppl want different things
Eos Amaterasu: Well, I think it's a personal responsibility to come back to personal experience - although it may be difficult, especially with big sessions
Maxine Walden: Agree with a clear protocol; also just thinking of what I also bring as an individual to each session
Maxine Walden: Just thinking that sometimes when I am rested I can be mor open and appreciate it in others, like several topics being discussed at the same time; at other times, when I am more closed down or fatigued, then such openness seems disturbing, so for me the issue is my state of mind
Eliza Madrigal nods
Eden Haiku: I meant the chit chat being 90% of PaB sessions.
genesis Zhangsun: I completely agree with that Maxine...often when I am "bored" I am impatient, tired or just "bored" with myself :)
Maxine Walden: yes, gen, know what you mean!
Calvino Rabeni: Maybe, Eden, but how can you tell - it doesn't seem to reference experience
Eos Amaterasu: One thread is to see how something said or expressed can be put in experiential terms that can be done right there and then, in the 90 secs, for example
Eos Amaterasu: 90 secs as micro lab
Eden Haiku: I know I like PaB a lot, even if you call it 100% chit chat.
Maxine Walden: yes, Eos
genesis Zhangsun: I agree! I do notice that at times people forget to observe the 90 seconds
Eos Amaterasu: Often the people who complain about lack of it :-)
Eliza Madrigal: :) @ Eden
Eden Haiku: ;-) Eos
Eliza Madrigal: I definitely don't think we are 90-100 % chit cat, but there is the occasional session...
Eos Amaterasu: that quality of rest Maxine mentioned - ideally one rediscovers that in PaB session
Calvino Rabeni: I didn't mean overall, just certain sessions that seem to "forget"
Riddle Sideways: please to remember PaB is 33% play :)
Eden Haiku: Right!
Eos Amaterasu ponders 33% "as"
stevenaia Michinaga: Play=creativity
Eden Haiku: Ad is the most profound of it...
Eden Haiku: *As
Eliza Madrigal: yes, play implies a bit of purposeful engagement
Calvino Rabeni: yes
Eos Amaterasu: "though he thinks he's in a play, he is anyway" - Beatles - :-)
Zen Arado: I find it difficult to stop 'old'ways of thinking
Eden Haiku: tell us more Zen?
Zen Arado: so I found the theme session so frustratingly unstructured
Riddle Sideways: yes, stoppingis hard... modifying is easier
Zen Arado: but I learned to keep quiet
Eden Haiku: This session is not posted yet I think?
Calvino Rabeni: Instead of trying to stop something, trying to start something different, is an alternative focus
Calvino Rabeni: That is the creativity part
Zen Arado: I have studied a lot of political philosophy and t is such a different outlook
Zen Arado: methods so different
Calvino Rabeni: Indeed different - have you been looking for a way to bring it into PaB?
Zen Arado: and structured
Zen Arado: no - heven't mentioned it really
Zen Arado: got a bit disillusioned with logical thought in the end
Calvino Rabeni: Every philosophy has its awareness component, that at least is compatible with PaB, if not the structures specifically
Zen Arado: pol phil is so full of -isms though
Eliza Madrigal: There are *many* times when it all falls into line beautifully... when there is, as Gaya used a phrase, an 'initial push' which then can give a bit of focus and momentum to the rest of the session. In some ways it might just be outining the format more directly/obviously
Eliza Madrigal: I think we can't forget those occasions when we go through a bit of turbulence here and there :)
genesis Zhangsun: and for all of us to patient :)
Eliza Madrigal: yes
genesis Zhangsun: and to practice on patience out of the sessions :)
genesis Zhangsun: or just practice in general
Zen Arado: painful to let go of our precious ways of thinking
Maxine Walden: staying open, yes patient as gen suggests...can iron out the wrinkles of the 'isms' sometimes
Eos Amaterasu: paticence is already holding some kind of bigger space
genesis Zhangsun: I think so Eos!
Maxine Walden: indeed, Eos.
Eos Amaterasu: *patience
Calvino Rabeni: OK, a question - on a feeling level, for the "old timers", has your experience changed over time about the quality of the PaB sessions?
Eos Amaterasu: old timer = GoC > 1 year?
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Eden Haiku: Went to the window for an intake of RL: it is snowing. It is so beautiful!
Eos Amaterasu: Ditto snowing here in RL
stevenaia Michinaga: looks at watch...old time?
Eden Haiku: ;-)
genesis Zhangsun: patience can provide the shift from "something needs to happen" to "its all okay the way it is"
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, but patience can mask objective changes and conditions
Eos Amaterasu: to "it's bigger than the way it seems to be"
Zen Arado: amusing to hear ppl hankering for 'the good old days' in Pab :)
Riddle Sideways: I may be old, but quality of the PaB sessions change every time
Eliza Madrigal: yes Zen :)
Eos Amaterasu: 'twas ever thus
Eden Haiku: yesterday, I poofed out of a session. Too much focus for me ;-)
genesis Zhangsun: what do you mean Calvino?
Maxine Walden: Guess I am an old-timer: I find my experience of the PaB sessions really has more to do with my state of mind, perhaps whether i am patient or not than the PaB session itself
Riddle Sideways: there is little to no sameness
stevenaia Michinaga: it is nice to think back at some of the topics I remember we discussed, including patience
Zen Arado: could resurrect some old topics?
Eliza Madrigal: I'm a bit uncomfortable whenever the discussion is 'that over there and everyone else' isn't like it should be....
Calvino Rabeni: If the session is a combination of the states of mind of the participants, it may change over time
stevenaia Michinaga: but to answer Cal's questions, the change in perception is person and varying, and is not necessarilly related to the quality of the sessions.. for me
Maxine Walden: But when I am goc, I do find that I can get a bit worried, as if I have to 'do' something to make the session 'better' etc.
Calvino Rabeni: Basically, people don't have same quality of beginners mind, perhaps
Lia Rikugun: me too maxine ;)
Zen Arado: me too
Zen Arado: my need to control :)
Maxine Walden: But to generally trust that we all are earnest, wishing to share and to grow...that helps in the long run, even when I am a fatigued goc
Eden Haiku: Our empathy is very important also.
stevenaia Michinaga: the gemtle puch towards "the subject" sometimes isn;t enough and you may jsut ahve to watch and see
stevenaia Michinaga: gentle
stevenaia Michinaga: push
Maxine Walden: yes, Eden, and yes, Steve
Eden Haiku: Thought you meant Punch Steve;-)
Calvino Rabeni: What accounted for the existence of those very long sessions, for instance?
Calvino Rabeni: Some kind of excitement in the air?
stevenaia Michinaga: sometimes we are a flock of birds in formation, other times we are herding cats for an hour
Zen Arado: but sometimes play is good - like what do they call allowing free flow of ideas?
Calvino Rabeni: And if they don't happen, what does that indicate?
Eden Haiku: What a beautiful image Steve!
Riddle Sideways: in our case ... one of the new members
Riddle Sideways: was just doing the experiment of living in PaB all day
Riddle Sideways: and we just stayed
Eden Haiku: Best PaB moments are like a fock of birds in formation yes!
Riddle Sideways: there was no pre-planning
Eden Haiku: And whatever the topic or no-topic.
Eliza Madrigal: a thrill of initial contact in some ways perhaps
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Eden Haiku: In happens in both.
Maxine Walden: the spontaneity Riddle mush have been wonderful
Zen Arado: brainstorming
Eos Amaterasu: spacestorming
Riddle Sideways: there is much to be said for both planned and spontanious
Calvino Rabeni: There is a different energetic quality of newness compared to familiarity.
Eliza Madrigal: yes, finding the balance between too much control or letting time leak away, in a sense...
Calvino Rabeni: Groups need renewal sometimes
Riddle Sideways: wwe should have both
Eden Haiku: One bird leading for a while then another bird for a while than another...alll going in the same direction.
Eliza Madrigal nods. I thought the party was energizing... nice to change the setting sometimes
Riddle Sideways: Goc sessions where I had a topic and many that I just let the flow go
Maxine Walden: we may be seeing the value of inclusiveness right now, and balance
Zen Arado: maybe we shold encourage quiet pppl more?
Calvino Rabeni: Can the pavillion design be change occasionally?
Eden Haiku: Why???
Eliza Madrigal: and we may be missing some great things going on that a year from now people will be complaining arent there? :)
Zen Arado: I often see ppl who hardly say anything all meeting
Eos Amaterasu: pavilion size etc can be changed on the fly
Calvino Rabeni: Remember the place before the PaB pavilion?
Calvino Rabeni: Having different environments evokes different feelings
Calvino Rabeni: a little variety can be stimulating
Eos Amaterasu: I see the Village as place for that
Zen Arado: I don't like the cold starkness and snow I admit
Riddle Sideways: there are at least3 ppl that don't talk if there are more then 3 at a session
Eos Amaterasu: ?
Eliza Madrigal: sure, again back to different kinds of sessions and such. I don't think we need to change the pavillion
Calvino Rabeni: Zen, agree
Eden Haiku: Variety in the people is quite enough for me.
Riddle Sideways: but are great chatters individually
Zen Arado: yes some talk a ot in smaller group
Eliza Madrigal: different settings at times for different reasons... like this is more what I was thinking of
Calvino Rabeni: Cozyness of the meeting place is conducive to different qualities
Riddle Sideways: sorry folks, I have a huge lag today
Calvino Rabeni: ELiza yes i agree
Eden Haiku: ;-) Riddle
Maxine Walden: can be frustrating, Riddle to have such lag
Eliza Madrigal: This week a few people expressed that when everyone falls silent for a long time it can be very confusing for newcomers... other end of the spectrum from herding cats I guess :)
Eden Haiku: waving through the lag
Eliza Madrigal: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/2009/12/2009.12.31_13%3a00_-_Insides%2c_Outsides%2c_Depths_-_Wild_Things
Eos Amaterasu: the asynchrony of lag has a bit of that birds flying, or frogs peeping, quality
Eden Haiku: But these long silences can feel like a matrix where ideas are being born also.
Eos Amaterasu: as well as play :-)
Eliza Madrigal: yes I agree
Riddle Sideways: we have had 100,000 word sessions about silence
Eliza Madrigal: maybe we might just be sensitive to IMing a newcomer
Riddle Sideways: and 25 word sessions about all
Maxine Walden: good idea, Eliza
Eden Haiku: chcuckles to what Riidle just wrote
Calvino Rabeni: Let me ask - if you were at that specific session - what was your experience?
Eliza Madrigal: I was there. We often do that at Stim's sessions... don't know why :)
Calvino Rabeni: and the quality of your experience ?
Calvino Rabeni: I was there also
Eliza Madrigal: It was a nice session, actually, when taken on the whole :)
Eden Haiku: I like these long silences, very much.
Calvino Rabeni: I meant about the long pause, was it relaxing or something else?
Eliza Madrigal: For me it was a meditative exercize of not always intervening :)
Eden Haiku: I understand Eliza's concern about the newcomers though. IM seems a good solution from the GoC.
Calvino Rabeni: Ok as an exercise, but the feeling ?
Eden Haiku: I like these long silences beacuse I feel very much conncted to the real people behind the avatars in RL then.
Calvino Rabeni: I'm being a little persistent about the difference , I know
Maxine Walden: It may be, Cal, that if one is feeling quiet and spacious internally, the experience of external silence is one of openness and quiet opportunity; but if one is feeling otherwise inside, or looking to the outside for guidance then the silence could feel disorienting
Eden Haiku: But then some silences are heavy, others are pregnant with possibilities.
Eliza Madrigal: yes my feeling is distinctly from the view of someone receptive to appreciate whatever was going on or not
Calvino Rabeni: My feeling of that particular silence, was heavyness
Eliza Madrigal: that day especially, so I can't speak objectively really, except that I can understand what a new person might feel
Calvino Rabeni: It may be the newcomer felt that - or multiple people did
Zen Arado: silence is very disturbing for ppl who don't meditat I think
genesis Zhangsun: and even for those who do :)
genesis Zhangsun: well I have to get going!
genesis Zhangsun: thanks everyone!
Maxine Walden: Aware the hour is over; I will have to go. Appreciated the conversation...
genesis Zhangsun: take care
Zen Arado: we forget that maybe
Lia Rikugun: bye gen
Eden Haiku: Bye Genesis!
Zen Arado: bye Gen
Maxine Walden: yes, bye as well
Calvino Rabeni: I'm just suggesting being discriminating about the experience in the moment and acting on that basie
stevenaia Michinaga: bye Gen
Lia Rikugun: bye maxine
Eliza Madrigal: so good manners are good manners.... if someone is at a party and no one is talking to them, you go and ask... see
Calvino Rabeni: Bye gen and max!
Eden Haiku: Bye Maxine!
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Maxine and Genesis :)
Eliza Madrigal: if someone new I should say
Eliza Madrigal: *is
Zen Arado: yes Eliza
stevenaia Michinaga: questions... were there newcommers at this session, or are we speaking in general
Calvino Rabeni: There were
Eliza Madrigal: well, not absolutely newcomers... newish...

((Eliza interrupting her own thoughts here to say that newcomer can obviously be someone who has attended several sessions at times and still may feel disoriented. This is something I learned this week rather than something obvious. Wanted to clarify. :)  ))

Eden Haiku: Good manners yes, being courteous, isn'it part of our guardian duty in general, and as GoC especially?
Eliza Madrigal: Yes Eden
Eliza Madrigal: Sometimes we have blindspots and it is good to be reminded
Calvino Rabeni: yes
Eden Haiku: I did not realize you were talking about a specific session...
Eos Amaterasu: Which session?
Calvino Rabeni: newcomers show us something we have gotten conditioned to ignore, sometimes
Eliza Madrigal: that session was a little extreme... was a nearly 30 minute silence outside of hellos/goodbyes :)
Eliza Madrigal: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/2009/12/2009.12.31_13%3a00_-_Insides%2c_Outsides%2c_Depths_-_Wild_Things
Eliza Madrigal: this is where they talked about it....
Eliza Madrigal: let me find the other log if posted

Added later: 2009.12.28 13:00 - "a nice simple storie" 

Lia Rikugun: (sorry to interrupt but: who can post the log for this session? I would leave soon too)
Calvino Rabeni: Is there a recorder here, or is it done from SL chat file?
Lia Rikugun: from the chat file
Calvino Rabeni: I can post it
Lia Rikugun: great thank you!
stevenaia Michinaga: I must be off, have a good day/night
Lia Rikugun: so I leave you here have a great day night..
Eliza Madrigal: No log posted yet. It will read like a nice session, and indeed it was! The pause did seem to be pregnant and you can't rush those things :)
Eden Haiku: I will have to leave also. Have a good Sunday everyone! Going in the snow!
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Lia and Steve and Eden. :) Thanks
Lia Rikugun: bye
Zen Arado: bye Eden
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks for posting, Cal
Calvino Rabeni: YW
Zen Arado: Bye Lia
Zen Arado: I better go too
Zen Arado: bye everyone
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Zen :)
Eliza Madrigal: Well, I think some interesting points were made.... patience seems the key :)
Riddle Sideways: ah I too must go thank you all
Eos Amaterasu: Bye gang
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Eos and Riddle:)

Eliza and Calvino remained, and had an extended talk about aspects of the PaB group and its process.

Eliza Madrigal: Maybe tried to cover too much today :)
Calvino Rabeni: There was a lot "up"
Eliza Madrigal: up?
Calvino Rabeni: in the air, on peoples minds
Eliza Madrigal: yes seems to be
Calvino Rabeni: and some of them are the "wicked" issues
Eliza Madrigal: elaborate if you can? wicked?
Calvino Rabeni: Sure, the word means, themes that can't be "solved"
Calvino Rabeni: I've seen them hashed at length in different groups
Eliza Madrigal nods, I see
Calvino Rabeni: one is structure versus freedom
Calvino Rabeni: or spontaineity
Eliza Madrigal: oh for sure :)
Calvino Rabeni: The emotional needs of the group members differ
Calvino Rabeni: and their attachments to having the group function in a particular way
Eliza Madrigal: that often adds to the play :)
Calvino Rabeni: differ on that basis
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, well 'going back to the past' doesn't work for me so well... but starting 'anew' all the time...
Eliza Madrigal: more comfortable :)
Calvino Rabeni: There is a tension, but play keeps it moving
Calvino Rabeni: People resist different things also
Eliza Madrigal: I think it is about initiative. if one feels they'd like to talk poetry... bring poetry...
Eliza Madrigal: energy...bring energy :)
Calvino Rabeni: Yes that often works :)
Eliza Madrigal: and in that spirit, learn practical things from one another
Eliza Madrigal: swap tips!
Calvino Rabeni: The newcomers don't know - they can make the group their own.
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Calvino Rabeni: Swap energy
Eliza Madrigal: yes, IMing with newcomers seems key
Eliza Madrigal: or just engaging if there seems a gap
Eliza Madrigal: some of the newcomers have been coming a while so it is a surprise to me to see that it can take a while to join the rhythm, etc
Eliza Madrigal: there is something practical to learn there
Calvino Rabeni: Probably because they have been listening for a sign of an authoritative statement about what the group norm is
Calvino Rabeni: And that is not forthcoming
Calvino Rabeni: so they feel confused
Eliza Madrigal: well, again, that's the fun
Calvino Rabeni: because they don't decide for themselves
Calvino Rabeni: It is fun, if one feels empowered to it
Eliza Madrigal: yes, we can give permission, too
Calvino Rabeni: RIght
Calvino Rabeni: They sometimes need it
Eliza Madrigal: empowerments, yes interesting
Calvino Rabeni: newcomers may need to be given ...
Eliza Madrigal: and also regulars who fall out of habit a bit...
Calvino Rabeni: it is a ritual function of the group container
Calvino Rabeni: yes that too :)
Eliza Madrigal: well, we're not going to find a formula I don't think... and if we do, it will change and need a new one...
Eliza Madrigal: and that seems safer to me
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Calvino Rabeni: yes, rituals are living formulas, have to evolve
Calvino Rabeni: Do you know the psychological perspective on groups?
Eliza Madrigal: well there can't be just one :)
Calvino Rabeni: For example, the idea of the "shadow"
Eliza Madrigal understands a bit about shadows, yes
Calvino Rabeni: Things accumulate that are not spoken, in relationships
Eliza Madrigal: and learning to 'dance in the dragon's den'
Calvino Rabeni: 1 on 1, or in a group
Eliza Madrigal: yes, okay... see what you are bringing up
Calvino Rabeni: psychotherapists pay attention to it
Calvino Rabeni: Normally people don't pay attention to it
Eliza Madrigal: and yes I think that is part of things.... saying things 'in the light', and 'in the open' seems half the work
Calvino Rabeni: And then they are more subject to the influences
Eliza Madrigal: hm
Eliza Madrigal: influences?
Calvino Rabeni: One can intend to be open, but it is more a declaration, unless those things are actually brought to light
Eliza Madrigal: well, that's why it is work
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Eliza Madrigal: and one is willing to work for what they see the value in and appreciate
Calvino Rabeni: I feel some limitations of the non-private nature of the dialogue in these groups
Eliza Madrigal: so sometimes getting out of one's own sense of nostalgia can be helpful.. just dig in 'where we are'?
Eliza Madrigal: yes, sure there is that. We've talked about doing longer, non recorded SL retreats
Calvino Rabeni: (thinking about your idea)
Eliza Madrigal: for a while now... maybe we actually organize one?
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Calvino Rabeni: So I could mention my personal example of those influences, but don't necessarily want it in the log
Eliza Madrigal: Well you are posting the log :)
Calvino Rabeni: Do you have a feeling for those "influences" - things that build up, but aren't spoken?
Eliza Madrigal: yes I think that people often grumble in private when they feel not heard...
Calvino Rabeni: I'm suggesting, one can say "yes" without making them explicit
Calvino Rabeni: that is a challenge in a group like this - to be "heard"
Calvino Rabeni: People naturally want it
Eliza Madrigal: yes... the thing is, sometimes it isn't that people are reticent as personalities...
Calvino Rabeni: I suspect, there's lots of private "grumbling"
Calvino Rabeni: It doesn't indicate things being "wrong"
Eliza Madrigal: I tend to agree
Calvino Rabeni: But it can lead to some kinds of stuckness, if not dealt with in some way
Calvino Rabeni: The question is how
Eliza Madrigal: stomping one's foot? :)
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Eliza Madrigal: I can only deal with it by being honest without being unkind... and encouraging others to do the same....
Eliza Madrigal: to say, especially those who have been here from early on and have nurtured pab...
Eliza Madrigal: I care enough to keep working at it with everyone
Eliza Madrigal: and just to hang out with everyone til they/we might feel something new :)

At this point, Calvino and Eliza started an additional conversation on the IM channel, with both happening in parallel.  The PaB group assumes openness and public visibility of the dialog, whereas confidentiality definitely has its uses too.  I (Calvino) found it fun and also interesting to be sorting and engaging both these conversations at once.  It is something we generally can't do in RL.  The closest thing is an "internal dialogue" with oneself while talking to another.

Calvino Rabeni: Can I give you an example, in IM?
Eliza Madrigal: I think the 'with everyone' is key
Calvino Rabeni: Say more about that, please
Eliza Madrigal: well... if I talk to you in IM and share my deepest concerns...
Calvino Rabeni: Privacy has important uses for protection of sensitive knowledge
Eliza Madrigal: and I email that one privately too...
Calvino Rabeni: As any therapist or lawyer or spouse knows :)
Eliza Madrigal: and we all agree... but don't really want to work it out in the larger group ...
Eliza Madrigal: then it seems um... Unhelpful
Eliza Madrigal: IF what we want is for there to be openness
Eliza Madrigal: I'm not being clear....
Eliza Madrigal: its difficult
Calvino Rabeni: People can be very persistent - they may have a need for something to be witnessed in the group, and when that happens, they will relax about the issue
Eliza Madrigal: yes I agree
Eliza Madrigal: but if the group cant always meet exact specifications
Calvino Rabeni: and it can't :)
Eliza Madrigal: the person might feel unwitnessed for a long time
Eliza Madrigal: yes, it can't
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, that is hard for people - they may leave, on that basis
Eliza Madrigal: even one on one with friends it is hard to know exactly how to validate someone else
Calvino Rabeni: Although I find it easier then in the complexity of a group
Eliza Madrigal: say more?
Eliza Madrigal: they may leave, and come back, too ...
Eliza Madrigal: and leave again and come back again and stay... :)))
Calvino Rabeni: People will say different things in private
Calvino Rabeni: Pema has a special situation, in many ways, as the one who "created" the PaB group
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Calvino Rabeni: Other group members have more freedom than he does, in certain ways
Eliza Madrigal: freedom?
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, they can take different risks. I see his role as a bit more conservative, necessarily
Eliza Madrigal: Interesting
Eliza Madrigal: So it keeps coming back to personal responsibility and initiatives, and patience, and TIME
Calvino Rabeni: The group has certain values and expectations about what we are here for.
Calvino Rabeni: They aren't spelled out - just a little bit
Eliza Madrigal: Whose quote is it that 'infinite patience yields instantaneous results' ?
Calvino Rabeni: Not sure :)
Eliza Madrigal: Does 'the group' have expectations? :)
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, collectively
Calvino Rabeni: Shared assumptions, some that have been declared
Calvino Rabeni: But many not
Calvino Rabeni: Newcomers try to figure it out
Eliza Madrigal: For me the group has many nests that are deconstructed and constructed every time...
Calvino Rabeni: Oldtimers may still be ambiguous
Eliza Madrigal: or many lego houses might be a better analogy
Calvino Rabeni: But there are some things you know to try to do, some you know not to do, and a lot of gray area
Eliza Madrigal: I get a sense of what a session may or may not be from those who arrive for it
Eliza Madrigal: sometimes I'm wildly wrong, that's fun
Calvino Rabeni: Being argumentative is definitely "out"
Eliza Madrigal: well, argumentative for the sake of argumentative
Eliza Madrigal: or insulting
Calvino Rabeni: Being helpful is sort of "in", but only if done in certain ways
Eliza Madrigal: well, we are learning
Eliza Madrigal: Are you refering to the therapy lines?
Calvino Rabeni: Sharing positive feelings is encouraged; ones people think of as "negative" are rather discouraged
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I was thinking of the "therapy" policy
You decline Meridian Cafe, Prism Lila (150, 58, 21) from A group member named Bryce Galbraith.
Eliza Madrigal: Hm, I don't agree with that really... about negatives
Calvino Rabeni: What do you believe about that?
Eliza Madrigal: but yes therapy is tricky
Eliza Madrigal: I think we can bring our negatives, fine...
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, it is
Calvino Rabeni: Also, "negatives" are tricky
Eliza Madrigal: we may not get feedback in the way we want it like "Go here do that"
Eliza Madrigal: and if we *just* want to share, we can say so
Calvino Rabeni: I think feedback is useful, if one is open, wants it, and it is well-presented
Calvino Rabeni: I mean, conscioujs feedback.
Calvino Rabeni: Of course, every response is a kind of feedback
Eliza Madrigal: it can be, agreed...
Calvino Rabeni: But perhaps more ambiguous
Eliza Madrigal: OR it can be that it is impossible... because we're dealing with one another out of context, as it were
Eliza Madrigal: So if I assure you that "THIS" is what is going on in my life... you are still listening to my view...
Eliza Madrigal: and if you say "You MUST do this"
Eliza Madrigal: that might be disasterous :) Therapists knows this
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Eliza Madrigal: But I can say, I'm feeling this way about this...
Eliza Madrigal: and you can give me some suggestions for how I might handle my own feelings....
Eliza Madrigal: without saying 'this is the way'
Calvino Rabeni: Sure
Eliza Madrigal: but 'this is one way I have tried'
Eliza Madrigal: and I may still walk away dissatisfied
Calvino Rabeni: Some groups have clearer standards about these things
Calvino Rabeni: Not that I am suggesting being like them
Calvino Rabeni: 12-step groups for instance
Eliza Madrigal: hm, yes that is an interesting model in many ways
Calvino Rabeni: They have a careful line to walk, because they want sharing, but there is so much strong feeling and habits involved
Calvino Rabeni: They have to carefully structure the openness
Eliza Madrigal: maybe we're being too careful in some ways
Eliza Madrigal: for instance...
Calvino Rabeni: (listens)
Eliza Madrigal: I know I can be pushy sometimes... I go overboard talking... am working to find the lines...
Eliza Madrigal: I have a sense of wanting to really deeply explore with others...
Eliza Madrigal: and my emphasis is often spiritual... so I revel in those sessions.
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, same here
Eliza Madrigal: Generally, if one throws out enough, there is quite a lot to work with...
Eliza Madrigal: in whatever group of us assembles, imo
Eliza Madrigal: and I feel basically satisfied... so I can then enjoy a session where we talk about movies or whatever :)
Eliza Madrigal: if it became all movies and I kept trying new things and everything kept falling flat... not sure...
Eliza Madrigal: but I don't think that's the case at all :)
Calvino Rabeni: OK good
Eliza Madrigal: but then that's me, who is able to go to many sessions perhaps
Eliza Madrigal: every one of us is quite distinct
Calvino Rabeni: Pema for instance, I think has changed over time, in the group
Calvino Rabeni: perhaps to have more discretion about the "push"
Eliza Madrigal: that's interesting to note...
Calvino Rabeni: But you or I could push occasionally, no problem
Calvino Rabeni: If he did, it would be more significant to the group
Eliza Madrigal: sometimes people email privately and we all want to implement every suggestion...
Eliza Madrigal: but then it can seem it comes from one place
Eliza Madrigal: if some of us are more vocal than others :)
Calvino Rabeni: I am in favor of a process there - of bracketing the suggestions - so they can be expressed, and let to simmer and find their significance. (I meant, with email)
Calvino Rabeni: Suppose there were a web page like a "suggestion box" in which there is some anonymity, could that be useful?
Eliza Madrigal: It might be
Eliza Madrigal: it will *always* depend on people determining to use it...
Eliza Madrigal: I don't see we have 'problems ' but think sometimes people like to frame it that way
Eliza Madrigal: to get a sense of a handle to change something...
Eliza Madrigal: perhaps that is a mistake
Calvino Rabeni: mistake how?
Eliza Madrigal: we can address the little things (and really, I think they are all little things) while appreciating the bigger picture
Eliza Madrigal: and being attentive to that
Eliza Madrigal: that it is a wonderous and great thing to be able to meet 4 times a day
Eliza Madrigal: with thoughtful people and engage in intersting, life changing practices
Calvino Rabeni: I agree, holding the big picture appreciatively is important, and it changes the little things
Eliza Madrigal: which often startle us out of our habitrails
Eliza Madrigal: IF *WE* use it that way
Eliza Madrigal: yes, exactly... the little things can open up in the light of the big picture
Eliza Madrigal: if we don't let our own 'preferences' obscure it
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Eliza Madrigal: and when we feel strongly it isn't just a preference, then we have this meeting...
Eliza Madrigal: we have an email group...
Eliza Madrigal: we have sessions...
Eliza Madrigal: Lots of things :)
Eliza Madrigal: if we don't get traction, perhaps it is just 'our deal'
Calvino Rabeni: There are some objective factors that can't be handled by working with one's private outlook
Eliza Madrigal: that we can then sit with it and face and work though, with help
Calvino Rabeni: with help ...
Eliza Madrigal: yes... "I know I'm being small, but this is how I feel"
Eliza Madrigal: or "I feel unheard"
Eliza Madrigal: can't always be controlled or solved
Eliza Madrigal: but being in the company of people itself can help
Eliza Madrigal: I'm talking too long about this and making less n less sense :)
Calvino Rabeni: Quoting is a good skill, bracketing actually, many people understand it.
Calvino Rabeni: One objective characteristic of the group is, there are people with very different outlooks and stages of development
Eliza Madrigal: yes, but just my opinions right this moment, and opinions aren't always helpful either :) Getting out of our own opinions and letting Being see....
Eliza Madrigal: that seems what we're here for. Being is more patient perhaps and then we benefit :)
Calvino Rabeni: And it's a peer group. Those two things are major
Eliza Madrigal nods
Calvino Rabeni: When I speak, I try to have it come from experience, but if others have not had that experience, it may be merely speculative to them
Calvino Rabeni: And vice versa for others
Eliza Madrigal: experience is important... but we don't want to be limited to our experience I think....
Eliza Madrigal: even as a group!
Eliza Madrigal: Do you know what I mean when I say that...
Eliza Madrigal: it is important and full of treasure of course... but only in light of the wider sky, in a sense...
Calvino Rabeni: I have an opinion, but tell me more
Eliza Madrigal: I think it is about stepping back
Eliza Madrigal: like the Tao story you told

Eliza had a good point and used the Tao story to refer to her meaning.  The "stepping back" in that case meant a time after an action has been accomplished, that you take time to look at and appreciate (and thereby reinforce) its greater significance.  I started to talk about the story, but at this point, lost Eliza's particular thread.

Calvino Rabeni: The Tao story has experiential meaning to me.
Eliza Madrigal listens
Calvino Rabeni: Generally I tell stories that I have a first-hand feeling about their significance

Here I went "meta" - trying to tie it back in to the earlier theme about how-to-be-present.  Mentally, I was juggling several balls in the air at once.  (Note to self - consider this).

Calvino Rabeni: People get confused about the issues of "experience" versus "thinking"
Calvino Rabeni: Neither limits the other, but they seem to think so.
Calvino Rabeni: It is a habit, not something about the nature of thinking and experience
Calvino Rabeni: We have been taught to assume they are separate
Calvino Rabeni: But they aren't really
Calvino Rabeni: You've heard "stop thinking, be experiential" ?
Eliza Madrigal: not really in that way, no :)
Calvino Rabeni: or "when I'm experiential, I'm not thinking"
Calvino Rabeni: It's a common disconnect
Eliza Madrigal: Ah... okay.... I see what you mean
Calvino Rabeni: Reinforced in many circles
Calvino Rabeni: e.g. "get out of your head" - meaning, pay attention be experiential
Eliza Madrigal: You mean that when people think that getting creative and spontaneous is going backward in some way
Eliza Madrigal: to pre-strategic thinking, etc
Eliza Madrigal: rather than getting beyond it
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, they assume we can't do them together
Calvino Rabeni: And also assume, that thoughts are about fixed patterns that leave "presence" behind
Eliza Madrigal: I think all three ways of doing things have their place :) I admit the beyond place is the one I find most powerful
Eliza Madrigal: and I think it is particularly interesting when we as a group do exercizes that bring us there together...
Calvino Rabeni: Tell me more about the "beyond place" so I know what you mean
Eliza Madrigal: showing one another that everything is new
Eliza Madrigal: Well, rather than 'stop thinking'... stop just thinking... open it up... work with the thougs
Eliza Madrigal: thoughts
Eliza Madrigal: What APAPB seems to be about... the expansiveness of life we already have
Eliza Madrigal: in every little thing
Eliza Madrigal: and we need one another to remember sometimes....
Eliza Madrigal: to hold the notes ... the doors open
Calvino Rabeni: The assumed definition of "thinking" is too limited, it cramps people's abilities
Eliza Madrigal: til we break through. THERE to me is the potential

I thought at that time, it would be a good place to wind it up, and so did Eliza.

Eliza Madrigal: Anyway, I'm exhausted now! haha
Eliza Madrigal: So much for not talking as much
Eliza Madrigal: hehehe
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Calvino Rabeni: I like it when you do :)
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks :)
Eliza Madrigal: And I do appreciate that you have energy and ideas you're bringing to the collective table
Eliza Madrigal: we all need to do that :)
Eliza Madrigal: And we need to rest up so that they ideas will keep generating...
Calvino Rabeni: I always appreciate when people dig deeper like that
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks for the long post-meeting brainstorming session :)
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, thanks for lingering.
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Eliza Madrigal: yes, indeed
Eliza Madrigal: :) Bye for now
Calvino Rabeni: Bye!
Eliza Madrigal: :)