2010.01.04 13:00 - More on YS, ES, BS

The Guardian for this meeting was Pema Pera. The comments are by Pema Pera.

This was another theme session, the third in a series; see the theme session page for more background.  The moderators for the current theme were Pema Pera and Wol Euler.

Some inital banter, before the hour starts.

Yakuzza Lethecus: nabend bert :)
Bertram Jacobus: lol. still dancing ...
Flux Constantine: "some dance to remember, some dance to forget..."
Yakuzza Lethecus: try that in real life on malta :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: i wait for that :)
Bertram Jacobus: hehe. don´t know ... :-)
Yakuzza Lethecus: especially when ur on ur head :)
Flux Constantine: hajimemashite
Flux Constantine: doozo yoroshiku
Eden Haiku: Feeling good!
Bertram Jacobus: lol - i´ll return - have to go to my stop all animation device :o)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey eden welcome
Flux Constantine: hehe, I have no idea how to move this avatar, so I'll just sit :)
Flux Constantine: that's the traditional move, no?
Yakuzza Lethecus: nabend wol
Yakuzza Lethecus: wb bert
Wol Euler: hello eden, bert, flux
Bertram Jacobus: ty and hello again all ... :-)
Eden Haiku: Hi Yakuzza and Flux , waving to Wol and Bertram.
Flux Constantine: hello
Wol Euler: hello yaku, sorry to leave you out
Flux Constantine: so now what shall we do? :)
Wol Euler: we wait :)
Flux Constantine: that works :)
Wol Euler: 555 days old today, a nice number.
Eden Haiku: ;-)
Bertram Jacobus: so often people speak for others (!) ... :o)
Flux Constantine: Wol, whose age is that?
Wol Euler: yours, flux :)
Flux Constantine: ah, OK.... guess I forgot :)
Bertram Jacobus: where can one see that wol ?
Wol Euler: users of the Emerald viewer have an extra field in the Profile, showing age in days
Flux Constantine: in RL I'm having cable installed.... the drama never ends :)
Bertram Jacobus: ah okay ty :-)
--BELL--
Flux Constantine: I know you're supposed to be silent, but my mind keeps right on spinning...

Wol Euler smiles. That's OK too, just note that fact and bring your mind back to stillness
Flux Constantine: ty
Wol Euler: hello pema, sharon, scath
Pema Pera: Hi everybody!
Wol Euler: hello liza
Eden Haiku: Hellos!!!
Flux Constantine: hello Pema
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello everyone :)
Zen Arado: Hi All
Liza Deischer: hi everyone
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi scath,sharonpema
SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi everyone :)
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Everyone:)
Wol Euler: hello zen, calvino, vendy
Vendy Walpole: Hello everyone
Calvino Rabeni: Hi all .
Flux Constantine: quite a large group, it seems :)
Vendy Walpole: seems I am a ghost tonight
Bertram Jacobus: whaow - so may arrivals - sry - was distracted - hello all ! :-)
Vendy Walpole: ㋡
Vendy Walpole: does not matter ㋡
Eden Haiku: wavng to all newcomers!
Wol Euler: hello gaya
SophiaSharon Larnia: waves back :)

Pema Pera: Today we will continue with a mini-series of theme sessions, moderated by Wol and me
Flux Constantine: alright, where's this punk Stim? he's already 3 minutes late :)
Bertram Jacobus: yes flux . sometimes more sometimes less. you´re the first time here ? :-)
Flux Constantine: Bertram: once before
Pema Pera: the topic is YS, ES, BS; see http://playasbeing.wik.is/PaB_Theme_Sessions for a list of theme sessions and pointers to sessions
Bertram Jacobus: oh. sry. listening now ...
Wol Euler: hello stim
Pema Pera: I hope that it is okay with Stim that we have taken over his session, just for this one time
Wol Euler: oh, did we forget to ask? Sorry about that.
Stim Morane: sue
Pema Pera: we have been jumping through the week, to find times that were good for both Wol and me
Stim Morane: sure
Pema Pera: thanks, Stim!
Wol Euler: what a difference a letter makes.
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Zen Arado: legal difference :)
Bolonath Crystal: namaste :)
Pema Pera: hahaha, Wol !
Flux Constantine: when a dragon wakes up, how do you put it back to sleep? :)
Pema Pera: Wol, would you like to start?
Pema Pera: :-)
Wol Euler: O.O
Wol Euler: okay
Wol Euler: I must apologise in advance for being somewhat jetlagged still, if I get lost in my own sentences that's the reason
Eden Haiku: ;-)
Pema Pera: :)
Flux Constantine: just breathing seems to work

Wol Euler: We spoke a few weeks ago on this topic: the three kinds of "seeing" exercises.
Stim Morane: Pema or Wol ... would you like to claim the session?
Wol Euler: YS, you seeing; ES, enlightened seeing; BS, Being seeing.
Pema Pera: Sure
Flux Constantine: this is quite a mandala :)
Wol Euler: I'll start by quoting for the record from Pema's e-mail today
Wol Euler: YS is phenomenology: you start by observing very carefully what is at hand, how you are functioning, how the world presents itself, without trying to change anything at all; you notice subjects and objects and subject/object interactions and you carefully watch and analyse their properties.
Wol Euler: You might say that this is just a formalization of what we try to do while "stopping and dropping"
Wol Euler: and to a certain extent that's true.
Wol Euler: ES is traditional spiritual practice: you train toward an ideal of becoming an enlightened person, and in order to keep your eyes on the goal, you can imagine from time to time what it would be like to view the world that way.
Wol Euler: Enlightened seeing is something of a bone of contention. I like it rather more than Pema does :)
Wol Euler: His objection is I think mostly to the word "enlightened" which is used a little too casually sometimes
Wol Euler: it can make us feel that we have "moved along" and "made progress"
Wol Euler: which are illusions.
Wol Euler: (Pema, feel free to jump in as I take your name in vain ;)
Pema Pera: you're doing fine, Wol!
Wol Euler: I like it rather more, as a deliberate exercise in visualizuation.
Wol Euler: Saying to yourself "what else is there here, that I am not noticing?"
Wol Euler: which pushes you a step beyond the possibly passive-observer of YS.
Wol Euler: The third type, Being Seeing, is where the fun starts.
Wol Euler: BS is a radical way of exploring reality: beyond all distinctions of categories, including those of science or religion or philosophy, you don't try to analyse as in YS or practice as in ES, instead you just let Being do the work, while still remaining completely present and attentive.
Wol Euler: That goes beyond the "you" of YS who sees; beyond the future enlightened you of ES.
Pema Pera: Thanks, Wol!
Wol Euler: Being is ... well, being just IS.

Pema Pera: Wol, shall we start with what you mentioned about ES?
Pema Pera: btw, for those new here:
Pema Pera: we typically spend twenty minutes or so with the two moderators
Pema Pera: in theme sessions like this
Pema Pera: talking with each other
Pema Pera: and then we open the floor
Pema Pera: Wol, you mentioned my concern with ES
Wol Euler: I hope I didn't misrepresent?
--BELL--
Pema Pera: in fact, it is an aspect of my concern with all three: all three can be easily misunderstood, and also misapplied in your live
Pema Pera: and no, you did fine, Wol :-)
Pema Pera: let's take all three of them
Pema Pera: YS is like phenomenology: a great start
Pema Pera: but with the danger that you get hung up in seeing the world purely as an interaction between subjecs and objects
Pema Pera: in fact, the phenomenologists I have talked with, professional philosophers, are of two groups:
Pema Pera: some firmly believe that subjects and objects is it -- that you have no kind of awarenes otherwise
Pema Pera: while others at least leave open the possibility of other kinds of awareness
Pema Pera: so the danger of YS is the first choice: to stop there
Pema Pera: now the danger of ES is an altogether different one
Flux Constantine: I'm waiting for Stim to speak. If he is silent, I will be silent :)
Pema Pera: the problem with letting the self/ego imagine how it will be to be "fully realized" or "enlightened"
Pema Pera: is that it is very very tempting for the ego to build a phantasy, one that can tend to let the ego get more stuck rather than less so
Pema Pera: what Trungpa used to call "spiritual materialism"
Pema Pera: we want to get goodies
Wol Euler smiles.
Pema Pera: and the highest goody is enlightenment
Pema Pera: that's my only qualm with ES -- and when used in the right way, as provisional encouragement, then of course it is fine!
Pema Pera: Now the drwawback of BS is that it, too, can be misused of course
Pema Pera: and there, too, the ego can think "ah, I got it, tha'ts it" in a premature way
Pema Pera: However, it is more difficult to fall into a delusion there, because the whole idea of "Being" is much further from everyday fantasy that "enlightenment" is
Pema Pera: so in that sense, I think that the idea of "Being" is a more self-protecting
Pema Pera: just like you want quickly fall into he delusion that you can solve differential equations before getting a grasp of arithmetic :-)
Pema Pera: Wol, would you like to respond?
Flux Constantine: isn't that what ramanujan did?
Pema Pera: hahaha, yes, exceptions are there always :)
Flux Constantine: :)
Wol Euler: I see your point about Being Seeing acting as a kind of insulator :)
Pema Pera: but for every ramanujan there are tens of thousands of crackpots thinking they can though the same :)
Flux Constantine: well, I will stand up for all the crackpots and defend them :)
Wol Euler nods. How many times was Fermat's last theorem "solved" before Wylie got it right?
Flux Constantine: being wrong is also quite good...

Wol Euler: During the pause I tried a bit of ES to remind myself of the "flavour" of it, and actually discovered an objection to it
Wol Euler: I felt htat there was too much "thinking" in it
Pema Pera: (Flux, please wait till we open the floor for everybody)
Wol Euler: that the effort of visualization can stand in the way
Wol Euler: this backs into what pema was saying about being led astray by the idea that you may "become enlightened"
Wol Euler: (sorry, I'm geting lost in my own thoughts here)
Wol Euler: the idea is that ES lends itself to overthinking, to analysis, to not actually *dropping* the viewer
Wol Euler: so on consideration I'd have to agree with you, Pema.
Wol Euler: it's nearly the half-hour. Shall we try an exercise at the break, then open to the floor?
Pema Pera: the problem is that *any* kind of practice is like a lollipop held out in front of the self/ego . . . and Being doesn't seem as tasty as a lollipop, hard to imagine what to do with it . . . . -- but we can find ways to put the lollipops to good use, I don't want to condemn them in any way
Pema Pera: Sure!
Pema Pera: would you like to formulate the exercise, Wol?
Wol Euler: mmmm, actually no, if I may :)
Pema Pera: hahaha
Pema Pera: How about all of us trying out all three?
Pema Pera: YS, ES, BS?
Liza Deischer: in 90 sec?
Pema Pera: perhaps 9 seconds each, at first, and then spending the rest of the 90 seconds reflecting on the experience(s)?
Pema Pera: actually, they don't need to "take" time . . . .
Pema Pera: in a flash, you can do each one
Flux Constantine: no offense, but it all sounds like "BS" to me :)
Pema Pera: perhaps not terribly deeply
--BELL--
Wol Euler: hello ara
arabella Ella: Hiya!
Pema Pera: we'll open the floor now for anyone who would like to comment
Pema Pera: and reporting your experience of the last exercise has high priority !

Bertram Jacobus: ( i saw the movie "avatar" and it seemed to me as if they had already found perfect seeing and bring it to the public - so nice!) ...
Gaya Ethaniel: I think ES came about initially not as a separate practice but as a part of discussion what BS is not. So for me, ES has been an important point to keep in mind rather than a practice ... if that makes sense.
Flux Constantine: I walked out of avatar in the middle. I was tired.
Flux Constantine: I tried to keep the precepts, but they all broke as well...
Wol Euler nods to Gaya. It was definitely the third of the set to be imagined
Pema Pera: yes
Pema Pera: Play as Being is our title, after all :)
Pema Pera: not Play as Enligtenment :)
Vendy Walpole: I have a question; does someone who see as ES does know that he/she sees that way? Is it possible to know?
Pema Pera: well, the question is whether anyone can be enlightened?
Pema Pera: whethere there is anyone there there then :)
Flux Constantine: if not, then maybe we should cancel these meetings
Pema Pera: if it involves dropping the self, then who can be said to be enlightened?
Wol Euler: I'm inclined to think that anyone who *did* achieve enlightenment, would automatically be in BS.
Wol Euler: taking the usual loose and weak definition of Enlightenment :)
Pema Pera: the main point is that the separation between self and other doesn't apply then any longer
Flux Constantine: there are angels on both sides. you can stay in the center, or move to the left or right. or at least, that's how it seems to me.
Pema Pera: does anyone else like to comment, who hasn't spoken yet?
Eden Haiku: This is what I experienced in 3 parts: Part 1: YS: breathing, my head floating in an orange translucent mixture, like a gel, eyes closed breathing.
Liza Deischer: it is difficult for me, because I word with a slightly different structure
Liza Deischer: and like to stick to that
Eliza Madrigal: ES, to me it seems, can help a bit with a kind of obstacle/tendency in "Being Seeing' to project notions of 'personhood' in thinking of Being... it can be a kind of clarifier
Liza Deischer: *work
Pema Pera: that's perfectly fine, LIza, of course; and in fact, the two can be combined: what you do and the "Being" orientation, they don't bite each other
Wol Euler: Eden, did you have parts 2 and 3=
Wol Euler: ?
Pema Pera: (Eden is still typing)
Pema Pera: (so please continue, Eden!)
Eden Haiku: Part 2: going to Enlightened Seeing; from above (level of the ceiling maybe) knowing waht this substance is, watery phenomenon, bubbling water, body all water
Eden Haiku: Part3: going to Being Seeing: bublling, bubbling, bub, bub, bub, syllables, sounds, fear of desorientation, of being lost somewhere, lingering there yet fearful. IM sound shaking me back to the screen a few seconds before the bell. THE END, ;-)
Stim Morane: :)
Flux Constantine: ah, there's a smile :)
Pema Pera: desorientation is an important part of the adventure, Eden, thanks for the direct impressions!
Eden Haiku: ;-)

Pema Pera: Stim, Arabella, Bolonatch, Scathach, others: would you like to throw in a line (or two)?
Pema Pera: while we also continue the current threads?
arabella Ella: i only arrived immediately after the pause ...
Bolonath Crystal: as an advaitin i think of life as a dream. the dream selves cannot be enlightened, and the dreamer already is. so YS is actually done by being. i can't find the difference between YS, ES and BS, except maybe that in YS the dream self identifies with his/her/its illusion of 'self'. maybe i'm only lacking fantasy...
Pema Pera: exactly Bolo!!
SophiaSharon Larnia: nods
Pema Pera: that's what I meant, to Liza, that they don't bite each other
Pema Pera: Being allows all views, while all views can be informed by Being
Pema Pera: without having to force or change anything
Liza Deischer: probably not, but Im not convinced
Pema Pera: Sharon, would you ilke to add something?
Gaya Ethaniel nods @ Bolo. Essentially ES is YS for me, I don't do the three separate practices.
--BELL--
Gaya Ethaniel: But initally knowing the three concepts were very helpful.
Wol Euler: yes, sharon, you said something about fear yesterday, that seems to correspond to Eden's 3rd state
Pema Pera: Your concern is a valid one, LIza -- perhaps we should take that as a separate topic for a new theme session, soon(ish) !
Liza Deischer: ok
SophiaSharon Larnia: seeing things that are impermenant as something solid, alive and there, and being afraid of that, is that what you mean?
SophiaSharon Larnia: glows in its own luminosity
Eden Haiku: Yes, Bolo ES seems to me just like a more figurative way, Being Seeing would be abstract 'painting' sort of...Obvioulsy, we use our imagination in the 3 practices but the, sometimes, something happens that does go beyond our imagination and we know it then.
Vendy Walpole: ㋡
Vendy Walpole: Thank you, I must leave, will read the rest ㋡
Vendy Walpole: Bye
Stim Morane: bye, Vendy
Wol Euler: bye vendy, take care
arabella Ella: bye Vendy
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Vendy
Gaya Ethaniel: Bye Vendy :)
Pema Pera: yes, Eden, we can sense a difference, actually many more than one, there are many many stages/steps/jumps
Pema Pera: Stim, is there anything you would like to add?
Stim Morane: should I? not sure it would help ...
Wol Euler grins
Flux Constantine: go for it
Pema Pera: I'm sure it would!
Flux Constantine: do it, damn you! :)
Stim Morane: Flux, I'm shocked that you are so naughty!
Flux Constantine: haha
Flux Constantine: I'm incorrigible

Stim Morane: Hmm. I don't know of any spiritual tradition that would accept ES as a meaningful characterization. It does reflect how beginners might think about what they embarking on, and what they want, but that's a different matter. Spiritual traditions would critique ES, but not embrace it.
Stim Morane: This does not mean ES has no proper role in PaB, that's another matter entirely. Perhaps it has the same role in PaB, that of a lesson in wrong views.
Flux Constantine: Stim, is it better if I meet you in Berkeley? it can be arranged, of course...
Stim Morane: what happens in SL should stay in SL
Stim Morane: :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Flux Constantine: oh, like Fight Club? :)
Wol Euler: heheh
Pema Pera: I agree, Stim, on both counts
Eden Haiku: In the Tibetan Empowerment of Kalachakra there is very obvious ES practice Stim.Also in Shivaism of Kashmir.
Pema Pera: as Gaya already reminded us earlier too
Stim Morane: Yes, Eden, but that sort of thing has to be understood in context
Stim Morane: It's not really the same.
Eden Haiku: Would point the difference please?
arabella Ella: Could ES perhaps be likened to having 'visions' or some sort of 'ecstacy'?
Stim Morane: Tantric "imagining" is nothing like what someone would typically understand ES to be saying
Liza Deischer: right
SophiaSharon Larnia: can you say more?
Eden Haiku: Typically?
Stim Morane: arabella, Eden's comment is very apt, but requires a lot to be clarified.
Eden Haiku: How do you see ES Stim?
Stim Morane: Eden, a tradition like the ones you mentioned would critique every aspect of ES.
arabella Ella: just to clarify ... my comment was separate and not triggered by Eden ... I don't know much about that
Stim Morane: Sure, ara, sorry
Gaya Ethaniel: I think if we were to practise and communicate BS experiences, YS & ES are useful to discussed alongside. So I'm not dismissing ES completely ...
arabella Ella: saints for example
Eden Haiku: Would you critique every aspect of ES for me Stim so I can see what you mean?
Stim Morane: sure, Gaya, I admit it might have roles here that I don't know about.
Stim Morane: Piet has pretty much done that here ... same points
Stim Morane: I mean, Pema, sorry
Stim Morane: :)
Pema Pera: :)
Pema Pera: I'm Piet here too :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Just that I don't know what ES practice should be ^^;;; I think 9/90 sec for me are BS -- am I wrong in this?
Wol Euler: ((that's why I always use SL names in RL e-mail conversation :))
Stim Morane: this is a q for pema
Pema Pera: BS is the main focus of PaB, Gaya, as the name PaB implies
Pema Pera: but as you indicated, it is nice to explored the neighborhood :)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Pema Pera: anyone starting with any of the three, YS, ES, BS, will misunderstand them -- like anyone practicing the violin for the first time :-)
Pema Pera: that's okay . . . .
Pema Pera: as long as you don't go on stage!
Gaya Ethaniel: Stim I agree with you, in my winded way I tried to explain what you said as "a lesson in wrong views."
Gaya Ethaniel: :)

Eliza Madrigal sees that ES can be a filter, which may be a distraction but also could be a tool or something to add a cushion. Until today I'd not really tried to do it as a practice.
Stim Morane: Sure, many things are possible
Pema Pera: what did you find, Eliza?
Wol Euler nods.
Pema Pera: today?
Stim Morane: I was just commenting on traditional views
Liza Deischer: Well I have a problem we
Liza Deischer: with ES too
Liza Deischer: I still dont know what it really means
Eliza Madrigal nods. For me today it was just a kind of reminder not to expect/project 'personhood'... project a box I guess...
Liza Deischer: and I agree with Stim, that in tantra, it has a quite differing meaning
Pema Pera: (I'll have to leave now, to go to the TSK workshop -- great seeing you all, and please feel free to continue of course!)
Gaya Ethaniel: Bye Pema :)
--BELL--
Wol Euler: bye pema, thank you
arabella Ella: bye Pema
Liza Deischer: bye Pema
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye everyone
arabella Ella: bye Yaku
Calvino Rabeni: Bye all - off to tsk also
Eliza Madrigal: Yes I'll be going also. Thanks everyone :)
Eden Haiku: slipping out quietly...
SophiaSharon Larnia: I have to go too!! Bye all for now!
Wol Euler: bye cal, eliza, sharon ...
Gaya Ethaniel: Time to go here too. Thanks everyone :)
Stim Morane: same here, bye everyone!
Eliza Madrigal waves
Scathach Rhiadra: good night all:)
Wol Euler: heheh
Bolonath Crystal: bye everybody, om shanti :)
Liza Deischer: Im going too
Wol Euler: bye stim, bye gaya, bye bolo, bye liza
Wol Euler: well, that looks pretty much like the end :)
Wol Euler: 'night scath
Bertram Jacobus: what is the tsk workshop, please ?
arabella Ella: yes i guess most people must have gone to the TSK workshop
Flux Constantine: where is that? can I get a link?

arabella Ella: it is a discussion on a book with that name
Wol Euler: probably at Kira
arabella Ella: Time Space Knowledge
Wol Euler: ah, right!
Wol Euler: ty
arabella Ella: you could google it and get some info on it
Bertram Jacobus: ah. i see. ty :-)
arabella Ella: i did not find the book itself available open source
Wol Euler: very likely it's in the cafe
Flux Constantine: can you give me the direct link? I think I forgot how google works :(
Alfred Kelberry: oh, the crowd is gone :)
Wol Euler: ah, alf is awake
Alfred Kelberry: :P
arabella Ella: Hiya Alfred :)
Alfred Kelberry: want to try my orange cube, woly? :)
Bertram Jacobus: search inworld kira cafe and you´ll find it and can tp there flux
Alfred Kelberry: hi, ara :)
Wol Euler looks around.
Alfred Kelberry: i wonder if i should make a hud thingy
Alfred Kelberry: i'm wearing it in my.. er.. hip :)
Wol Euler: I am *not* putting my hand in your pocket :-P
Bertram Jacobus: [13:32] Bertram Jacobus: ( i saw the movie "avatar" and it seemed to me as if they had already found perfect seeing and bring it to the public - so nice!) ...
Alfred Kelberry giggles
Alfred Kelberry: no worries, giving it to you :)
Alfred Kelberry: sorry, no readme yet :)
Alfred Kelberry: is your channel 1 free?
arabella Ella: did you watch it as 3D Bert?
Bertram Jacobus: no. did you ?
arabella Ella: only today i heard it is possible to watch it 3D here so I am dying to find time to go watch it
Alfred Kelberry: so: /1 message
Bertram Jacobus: i see. but you saw the movie already - right ? :-)
arabella Ella: not yet
Alfred Kelberry: also: /1 url - gives you slurl
arabella Ella: only bits and pieces on TV
Bertram Jacobus: oh. not yet ! okay ...
Alfred Kelberry: then usual: /1 hide and /1 show
arabella Ella: need to find time
arabella Ella: and not easy to find 2 to 3 hrs
arabella Ella: but i must
Bertram Jacobus: wish you 3 free hours (!) ...
arabella Ella: :)
arabella Ella: ty
Bertram Jacobus: yes ! it´s really worth
arabella Ella: not easy at the moment ... too many work deadlines
Bertram Jacobus: i see ...
Bertram Jacobus: as i try to say : my impression is, they don´t have to worry about seeing anymore (!) ...
Bertram Jacobus: and it´s inspiring for millions ...
Bertram Jacobus: of people
arabella Ella: yes i am sure it must be
Bertram Jacobus: very good
arabella Ella: i'm afraid i must go now
arabella Ella: bye Wol Bert Alf
Wol Euler: bye ara, take care
Alfred Kelberry: bye, ary :)
Bertram Jacobus: okay - as i already said : wish you more space and time ara ! ...
Wol Euler: hello zon, you're a little late :)
Zon Quar: hi, was actually looking for teh discussion on time
Wol Euler: oh, that is in the cafe, and it's not now.
Wol Euler: mmmm, wonder when?
Zon Quar: it said 14
Zon Quar: in the note
Wol Euler: oh!
Wol Euler: hmmmmm
Zon Quar: but noone is there
Zon Quar: i go and look again, c u
Wol Euler: bye zon, good luck
--BELL--
Wol Euler: awww, a shoulderbunny. cute.
Bertram Jacobus: :-))
Bertram Jacobus: it´s the best scripted shoulder pet i know in sl - and it was / is a gift above that (!) ... :-)
Bertram Jacobus: it always seems very curious to me and open minded lol
Wol Euler: :)
Wol Euler: an inspiration to us all
Bertram Jacobus: okey :-)
Bertram Jacobus: for them who can see ... ;o)
Wol Euler: gentlemen, it seems we are finished. Shall we switch off the recorder and adjourn to more comfortable shores?
Wol Euler: 3 ... 2 ... 1 ... gone.