2010.01.21 01:00 - Awareness and Meditation

The Guardian for this meeting was Zen Arado. The comments are by Zen Arado. Present were Pema, Liza, Calvino. Tarmel and her friend Dorothy visited briefly. A newcomer called Basam arrived but did not stay long.

Introductory remarks and comments about retreats and their activities:

    Zen Arado: Hi Pema :)
    Pema Pera: hi there, Zen!
    Zen Arado: how are you?
    --BELL--
    Pema Pera: fine! Back in New York briefly
    Pema Pera: hi Liza!
    Liza Deischer: hi guys
    Zen Arado: Hi Liza:)
    Liza Deischer: I can only stay for a short while
    Pema Pera: It's 4 am in New York, but with my Japanese jetlag I had a chance to come in anyway
    Zen Arado: I was waitng for beel there
    Pema Pera: glad to see you, Liza!
    Pema Pera: beel?
    Zen Arado: bell :)
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Liza Deischer: Yes, it is in the middle of the night in the states
    Zen Arado: yes jet lag is horrible
    Pema Pera: oh, I don't mind
    Pema Pera: it can be horrible if you have to work the next day at a fixed time
    Zen Arado: yes
    Liza Deischer: you've gotten used to it :-)
    Pema Pera: but in my case, I'm my own boss, so I sleep and work when I like
    Zen Arado: I hasd to do shift work for years
    Zen Arado: never liked it
    Pema Pera: it's actually quite nice, to have dream life and normal life mixed up a bit, for a while at least
    Liza Deischer: that certainly makes it easier Pema
    Pema Pera: (again, if you can adjust your own hours)
    Zen Arado: yes rigid shift times are the worst
    Pema Pera: and it's an interesting exploration, to hang around a city at 4 am
    Liza Deischer: yep
    Pema Pera: such a different energy
    Pema Pera: people are more friendly too!
    Liza Deischer: yes
    Zen Arado: yes but New York never sleeps they say
    Pema Pera: strangers greeting in New York City just doesn't happen during the day
    Pema Pera: but does at the wee hours at night
    Liza Deischer: :-)
    Pema Pera: tomorrow I'll fly on to Malta
    Zen Arado: it would be a great place to see
    Pema Pera: looking forward to the PaB retreat there
    Zen Arado: ah yes
    Zen Arado: I am going to a short zen retreat next weekend
    Liza Deischer: I'm ehhhh.....staying here :-)
    Pema Pera: how nice! Who is leading it?
    Zen Arado: a guy from the San Francisco zen center
    Zen Arado: Ingen Breen
    Zen Arado: he originally came from Ireland
    Pema Pera: it's always inspiring to take some time out, with a group, dropping it all, sharing the energy
    Zen Arado: and is here leading retreats for a few months
    Zen Arado: I love the silence
    Pema Pera: will the place have the proper access for you, Zen?
    Liza Deischer: yes it is filling up a certain energy
    Zen Arado: yes it is in a local retreat center
    Zen Arado: I go there every week for a meditation group anyway
    Liza Deischer: filling up is not the right word here I guess
    Pema Pera: I know what you mean, Liza :)
    Zen Arado: more of a letting go I think
    Pema Pera: both
    Pema Pera: energizing by letting go of the brakes :)
    Zen Arado: O do find retreats difficult physically
    Liza Deischer: letting go means you're making room for something different
    Zen Arado: letting go of my usual thought stream
    Pema Pera: yes, and for what is more natural (-> Liza)
    Liza Deischer: yes
    Zen Arado: I must admit I enjoy the chanting too
    Zen Arado: I do chant leader sometimes
    Pema Pera: it all supports each other: sitting, walking, chanting, bowing, eathing, coming, going
    Liza Deischer: Chanting is also a more physical experience
    Pema Pera: hi Calvino!
    Zen Arado: Hi Cal :)
    Liza Deischer: hi Cal
    Liza Deischer: new looks Cal?
    Zen Arado: something about voices in unison
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello all!
    Zen Arado: new perm ?
    Zen Arado: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: New hair at least :) Maybe I will change it occasionally
    Liza Deischer: and love is in the air I see :-)
    Zen Arado: it is?
    Calvino Rabeni: Now that the ice is gone, I don't need the jacket either
    Liza Deischer: unison with your body and others
    Pema Pera: :)
    Liza Deischer: I understand
    --BELL--

I introduce a topic concerning the practice taught by a spiritual organisation I discovered on the web a few days ago. This led to a discussion about integration of short periods of awareness with longer meditation periods.

    Zen Arado: I wonder if you noticed this website I talked about at one of the sessions Pema?
    Zen Arado: http://greatfreedom.org/
    Zen Arado: it seems so like what we do here
    Pema Pera: let me have a look . . .
    Zen Arado: just coming back to awareness for short moments during the day
    Zen Arado: it was started by a woman called Candice O'Denver
    Pema Pera: is it dzogchen related?
    Zen Arado: no not Buddhist related
    Pema Pera: Hi Tarmel!
    Pema Pera: it talks about "natural perfection", that's why I wondered :)
    Zen Arado: but ppl told her it is very like Dzogchen
    Pema Pera: Hi Dorothy!
    Zen Arado: Hi Dorothy
    Liza Deischer: Hi Tarmel, Dorothy
    Tarmel Udimo: hI folks
    Tarmel Udimo: this is a friend of mine
    Tarmel Udimo: Dorothy is the creator of an amazing sim
    Pema Pera: nice to meet you, Dorothy!
    Zen Arado: fine does Dorothy need an introduction?
    Tarmel Udimo: We are not stopped I am just showing her around
    Liza Deischer: maybe it is easier if you shut down your voice
    Zen Arado: ok
    Tarmel Udimo: how that
    Zen Arado: great
    Tarmel Udimo: what's the name of your sim again?
    Dorothy Porta: Macbeth
    Liza Deischer: thanks
    Tarmel Udimo: yeah check ot out
    Tarmel Udimo: anyway we will leave you to it!
    Zen Arado: nice to see you
    Dorothy Porta: goodbye
    Tarmel Udimo: bfn
    Liza Deischer: bye
    Pema Pera: take care!
    Zen Arado: drop in anytime !
    Zen Arado: bye
    Pema Pera: short & sweet :-)
    Zen Arado: when I read stuff on that site I started wondering about my meditation practice
    Pema Pera: how so, Zen?
    Zen Arado: whether I should drop it and just do short moments of awareness through the day
    Zen Arado: she says they eventually coalesce into an awareness that is always present
    Pema Pera: oh, I think you can do both
    Pema Pera: no need to choose
    Liza Deischer: actually, I think both are needed
    Zen Arado: but I think I will keep my meditation and add the short moments
    Zen Arado: yes
    Liza Deischer: one is giving you warereness, the other one is giving you deeper insight
    Pema Pera: yes, they reinforce each other
    Liza Deischer: needed is a big word,btw
    Pema Pera: :)
    Pema Pera: nothing is needed, but many things can be helpful :-)
    Pema Pera: supportive
    Liza Deischer: yes, thaths what I mean :-)
    Zen Arado: meditation should spill into your life they say
    Calvino Rabeni: Meditation is a very broad category - I think as broad as "what you do for your body" - like, I wouldn't give up exercise for vitamins
    Zen Arado: I like meditation
    Zen Arado: I know others who find it a chore
    Zen Arado: then I wonder if it is an escapes from life
    Pema Pera: nice analogy, Calvino!
    Pema Pera: btw, I am wondering whether I will be able to come into PaB eight times today, starting with this meeting, and adding also the happy (half) hours right in between the sessions, in the Village Cafe
    Liza Deischer: sorry, but before the bell goes
    Liza Deischer: I need to go
    Pema Pera: bye Liza!
    Zen Arado: bye Liza
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye Liza
    Liza Deischer: bye all
    Zen Arado: thanks for coming!
    --BELL--

Discussion ensued about the function of meditation and my worries about the dilution and 'psychologizing' of Buddhist traditions:

    Calvino Rabeni: I have friends who overdo meditation
    Calvino Rabeni: It's not like meditation is good or bad in itself
    Zen Arado: how do you overdo it Cal?
    Calvino Rabeni: but important to look at what function it serves in a person's life
    Zen Arado: yes - if it is escapism?
    Calvino Rabeni: I look at what it does for them, and what it might be "instead of"
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: I know someone who uses it to manage anxiety
    Zen Arado: but in Zen they get away from any functional idea
    Calvino Rabeni: also takes a drug for that
    Calvino Rabeni: Because they are committed to Zen, ideologically
    Calvino Rabeni: but there are many stories of Zen practitioners branching out
    Calvino Rabeni: to compensate for the limitations of Zen practice
    Zen Arado: perhaps the MBSR idea promotes the idea of functionality
    Calvino Rabeni: instead of maintaining that it "fixes everything and is ALL you need"
    Calvino Rabeni: They keep the zen, if they want it, but add other things to their life practices
    Calvino Rabeni: So the become less one-sided
    Pema Pera: zen can be all you need, if seen and practice sufficiently broadly . . . but just taking "just sit" too narrowly won't do it
    Calvino Rabeni: Any tradition has people who over-do the practice in a one-sided way, maybe for the wrong reasons
    Zen Arado: I wonder if I am into too many side branches though
    Calvino Rabeni: their teachers have to encourage them to do other things
    Pema Pera: perhaps it is under-doing that is the problem, taking it too narrowly . . . . it is not that they spend too much time on it, I think
    Zen Arado: you can become a kind of 'spiritual gypsy 'perhaps
    Calvino Rabeni: I think American Zen is changing the envelope somewhat
    Calvino Rabeni: Zen is not meant to be a rigid fixed thing
    Calvino Rabeni: so some do more things for emotional development, for example
    Calvino Rabeni: The basic insights remain
    Zen Arado: no - but don't you see a danger in flitting from one thing to another?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, but they don't "flit".
    Calvino Rabeni: They continue for years, and gradually add things until they become more fully practiced
    Zen Arado: I tend to though
    Calvino Rabeni: It is not flighty
    Zen Arado: it is so easy to find spiritua teachings on the web
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm talking about people who achieve a respectable depth with things, not the butterfly types
    Zen Arado: you really need a teacher to keep you on track I think
    Calvino Rabeni: Beware of the web, my son :)
    Zen Arado: I know:)
    Zen Arado: we have an embarrassment of choice
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, that can be a problem,not just an opportunity
    Zen Arado: but it might be better to have a basic tradition to adhere to?
    Calvino Rabeni: Freedom without discrimination - hmmmm
    Pema Pera: it all depends on the individual, Zen
    Pema Pera: it is easier to stick to one tradition, for sure
    Calvino Rabeni: On the individual's character, and also their experience
    Pema Pera: and their motivation, the strength of their motivation, more than anything else
    Zen Arado: I think many come to Buddhism to solve personal problems initially
    Zen Arado: that is their motivation
    Calvino Rabeni: It's like learning anything in depth, perhaps - in the beginning you explore a bit, later follow some teacher or system that you have reason to respect, maybe later branch out independently
    Pema Pera: yes, to get back to "normal" and then they may discover something much better than "normal", the real normal (-> Zen)
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, that's a common legitimate motivation at first
    Zen Arado: but then that changes as their practice deepens
    Zen Arado: yes Pema
    Zen Arado: yes Cal
    Zen Arado: I japan Zen can be very tough
    Zen Arado: in Japan
    --BELL--

Discussion about Zen retreat experiences and whether their strictness is warranted:

    Pema Pera: bye Zen and Calvino!
    Calvino Rabeni: so can japan brush painting or flower arranging be tough - with ranks like the martial arts sometimes :)
    Pema Pera: perhaps see you later again today
    Zen Arado: bye Pema
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye Pema
    Zen Arado: thanks for coming
    Pema Pera: you both too!
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Zen Arado: I was reading about Eiheji (sp) monastery
    Zen Arado: about how much abuse the monks get
    Calvino Rabeni: What kind of abuse?
    Zen Arado: verbal I think
    Zen Arado: and beating with sticks as well as sleep deprivation
    Calvino Rabeni: Well, it's hard to say - that might be an exaggeration of a legitimate practice
    Zen Arado: I have a friend who did a rettreat at the San Francisco zen center lately
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe out of hand
    Zen Arado: and that was pretty tough too
    Zen Arado: you wonder if the strictness is necessary
    Zen Arado: what purpose it serves
    Calvino Rabeni: There is a difference between abuse and hard training
    Calvino Rabeni: Have you done the sits in the traditional setting?
    Zen Arado: yes - Japanese zen masters thought Westerners very weak
    Zen Arado: I have only done retreats here in Ireland
    Calvino Rabeni: How much did they sleep during the retreat?
    Zen Arado: they can be long days starting at around 6am to 9pm
    Calvino Rabeni: But no sitting at night?
    Zen Arado: no
    Calvino Rabeni: Did they use the keisaku stick?
    Zen Arado: they do an hours Samu (work practice)
    Zen Arado: and an hour of Yoga
    Zen Arado: no
    Zen Arado: I only saw that once
    Zen Arado: and you had to request it
    Zen Arado: it is good when you are sleepy
    Calvino Rabeni: yeah, it helps
    Zen Arado: it doesn't really hurt
    Zen Arado: I am a bad sleeper at retreats so I am usually half asleep
    Calvino Rabeni: Same here, when away with a group
    Calvino Rabeni: Earplugs help
    Zen Arado: I find the physical problems of being in a wheelchair greater than the actual meditation
    Zen Arado: earplugs?
    Calvino Rabeni: To block noise at night while sleeping - I am a light sleeper
    Zen Arado: ah noises don't disturb me ; just my mind racing
    Calvino Rabeni: In dormitory or zendo sleeping there are always lots of people around maybe, snoring and such :)
    Zen Arado: retreat centers are rarely very disabled accessible
    Zen Arado: so that gives me greatest problems
    Calvino Rabeni: When you sit zaze, can you get out of the chair?
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello Basam
    Zen Arado: Hi Basam
    basam Bruun: hi
    Zen Arado: you been here before?
    basam Bruun: what is this plase
    basam Bruun: no
    basam Bruun: this is first time
    basam Bruun: :)
    Zen Arado: I will give you an intro on a notecard
    basam Bruun: ok
    basam Bruun: but whit are you doiang
    Zen Arado: we sit and have discussions mostly
    Zen Arado: and talks are recorded
    Zen Arado: so you can have your comments deleted if you wish?
    --BELL--

Sitting posture and over-intellectualizing of Buddhism:

    Zen Arado: oh and we meet 4 times per day 1,7am and 1,7 pm SLT
    Zen Arado: we were talking about meditation retreats
    basam Bruun: aha
    Zen Arado: I was saying I have difficulties because I am in a wheelchair
    Zen Arado: and I can't get up from it now
    Zen Arado: but this boring to others?
    Zen Arado: I become a bit dependent on others at retreats
    Calvino Rabeni: When you do zen "sit", how is it different than traditional, in terms of posture etc. for you Zen?
    Zen Arado: it is easy - I just slide forward to the edge of the wheelchair and sit upright
    Calvino Rabeni: I see. Sometimes I use that position
    Zen Arado: yes - older ppl often have to use chairs
    Zen Arado: so long as I don't fall asleep and fall off the chair!
    Zen Arado: for walking meditation I just push chair around slowly
    Zen Arado: you practice Zen Cal?
    Calvino Rabeni: I have in the past, but now I do other sitting meditations
    Zen Arado: from other traditions?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, but I can't designate them
    Zen Arado: I read a lot from other traditions
    Zen Arado: I just ordered a book on the Bodicaryavata (sp)
    Zen Arado: by Pema Chodron
    Calvino Rabeni: I don't read any more - what I have has worked for a long time so I don't need new information
    Calvino Rabeni: Although occasionally an old teacher comes out with a new book or something, then I will read it
    Calvino Rabeni: Or for a class, such as the TSK book
    Zen Arado: I have that book but couldn't seem to get into it
    Zen Arado: maybe I'm not so keen on visualizations
    Calvino Rabeni: I have trouble getting into it also, but it's worth a try for the Time workshop
    Zen Arado: if I can't get into the book there isn't much point going to the workshop though
    Calvino Rabeni: I did pick up a tantra book a while back, but found it to be variations on what I already knew - and I didn't want to learn the "tradition"
    --BELL--

Intellectual versus emotional and unconscious ways of knowing and back to the purity of Zen and how it is changing in the West:

    Calvino Rabeni: Nothing spiritual happens for me any more through the intellect
    Zen Arado: I haven't been practicing Buddhism very long abot 5 1/2 years
    Calvino Rabeni: So I don't study that way
    Zen Arado: but I can also see the same things coming up just in a slightly different way
    Calvino Rabeni: 5 years can be long, if the practice is intensive
    Zen Arado: yes - I can see I am coming to the end of thinking too much about it
    Zen Arado: there is a trap there too
    Calvino Rabeni: I basically just study on emotional and unconscious levels
    Calvino Rabeni: But I read a great deal in the past, I'm not anti-intellectual
    Calvino Rabeni: maybe post- though
    Zen Arado: you see - I came to Buddhism through philosophy
    Zen Arado: from a study on personal identity
    Calvino Rabeni: I see. I came to it through martial arts
    Calvino Rabeni: that would make a difference :)
    Zen Arado: :)
    Zen Arado: so I find it harder to slough off the rationality
    Calvino Rabeni: I took training in budshist-flavored psychotherapy at one time
    Calvino Rabeni: but decided not to practice it as a profession
    Calvino Rabeni: I liked the combination though, it made sense to me
    Zen Arado: yes - Buddhist ideas are gaining ground in that discipline
    Calvino Rabeni: Since the late '80's more or less
    Zen Arado: CBT sounds very Buddhist to me
    Calvino Rabeni: In a way, but they are going even more in the mindfulness direction lately
    Zen Arado: it is happening here in Ireland too
    Calvino Rabeni: With the help of some science
    Zen Arado: my Zen teacher also lectures on Mindfulness Meditation when he comes over here - to doctors and psychiatristrists etc
    Calvino Rabeni: mindfulness methods compare favorably with CBT in studies of drug rehabilitation
    Zen Arado: woder if it might dilute Zen practice though
    Calvino Rabeni: no big surprise, but the people in those areas want some proof
    Zen Arado: he sees it as a kind of outreach too though
    Calvino Rabeni: Do you have a personal concern with purity and/or "going astray"? Or are you thinking of a kind of public relations issue?
    Zen Arado: and some come to the Zen center here after starting with mindfulness
    Calvino Rabeni: Could go either way
    Zen Arado: not sure - but if you water it down too much...
    Zen Arado: on the other hand zen has always changed as it moved to different cultures
    Calvino Rabeni: it must be a living thing
    Calvino Rabeni: not an ideology
    Zen Arado: we now are starting to have an Irish Zen
    Zen Arado: :)
    Zen Arado: people who are practicing Catholica but also practice Zen
    --BELL--

Catholic/Zen mixture and bookishness:

    Calvino Rabeni: These things are much less compartmentalized than they were 30 years ago
    Zen Arado: a Jesuit priest who is also a Zen teacher comes here to lead retreats
    Zen Arado: he performs a Catholic mass during the retreat
    Zen Arado: some of the Protestants here don't like that:)
    Calvino Rabeni: I would imagine not :)
    Zen Arado: I don't see how he reconciles ideas about God with Zen but he does somehow
    Calvino Rabeni: I would recommend a zen-like discipline to you for reading - but not if you feel it might dilute your focus.
    Zen Arado: yes - I can be too much of a dilettante
    Calvino Rabeni: because it fits with zen and identity, which you mentioned
    Zen Arado: should re-read old books
    Calvino Rabeni: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1556438575
    Zen Arado: insted of always buying new ones
    Zen Arado: thanks
    Zen Arado: hungry ghost for books :)
    Zen Arado: looks interesting
    Zen Arado: a bit like Seung Sahn - 'don't know mind'
    Zen Arado: my teacher put 'only don't know' on my rakusu
    Calvino Rabeni: It might be appropriate for a "Ways of NOT Knowing" workshop :)
    Zen Arado: yes :)
    Zen Arado: anyway - I'm afraid I will have to go now Cal
    Zen Arado: nice talking to you
    Calvino Rabeni: Same here - see you later, Zen
    Zen Arado: ok bye :)
    Calvino Rabeni: bye for now