2010.01.05 19:00 - Space In Tension Ality

The Guardian for this meeting was Eos Amaterasu. The comments are by Eos Amaterasu.

Eos Amaterasu: Hi Calvino
Calvino Rabeni: Hello, Eos
Calvino Rabeni: Are you ready for a theme session?
Eos Amaterasu: Yes...

--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: My thought was to propose a few ideas for discussion, then open the floor.
Eos Amaterasu: The floor is pretty open :-)
Calvino Rabeni: Do you have some focus ideas for today?
Eos Amaterasu: Some themes have been coming up
Calvino Rabeni: It's open now, but others may show up soon. We could just get started and back-post to new arrivals
Calvino Rabeni: What has been coming up?
Eos Amaterasu: one is that of the intention of the facilitator
Eos Amaterasu: which seems a paradoxical thing to hold
Eos Amaterasu: if what you see fundamentally being facilitated
Eos Amaterasu: is openness
Eos Amaterasu: which means as a facilitator you do have to put your own intentions on the line, so to speak
Eos Amaterasu: otherwise you're not sharing what you intend to facilitate in others
Eos Amaterasu: another aspect could be called "we seeing"
Eos Amaterasu: in terms of facilitating the presence and activity of groups, communities
Eos Amaterasu: is there something analagous to what happens in individual practice?


Eos Amaterasu: so we could take YS, ES, BS as an example
Eos Amaterasu: You Seeing, Enlightened Seeing, Being Seeing
Eos Amaterasu: and in the case of a group
Eos Amaterasu: turn the You into a plural
Eos Amaterasu: You-all seein' :-)
Eos Amaterasu: or maybe we seeing
Calvino Rabeni: The we-seeing is a useful perspective
Eos Amaterasu: so the contemplation is that of the group process recapitulating the individual process
Eos Amaterasu: I think you get a stronger sense of that in retreat, at least in the group RL retreats I've experienced
Calvino Rabeni: I'm thinking of facilitation "in the large", not specifically how to facilitate a play-as-being session
Eos Amaterasu: I'm actually thinking about it the other way around
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Eos Amaterasu: How to facilitate _from_ PaB
Eos Amaterasu: both re the facilitator coming from that
Eos Amaterasu: and the group coming from that
Calvino Rabeni: So the internal experiential state of the facilitator is important for "coming from" into the world
Eos Amaterasu: in a way the facilitator holds the state of mind, or its call-by-future, for the group
Eos Amaterasu: but that's a paradoxical holding
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I see that - and demonstrating and communicating it is necessary
Calvino Rabeni: Presencing it
Eos Amaterasu: Although in many situations it's a totally unknown situation for the facilitator
Calvino Rabeni: And you're right, the facilitator may not be able to come from a "control" place
Eos Amaterasu: So maybe that's a saving grace :-)


Calvino Rabeni: I have been thinking about the "paradox" concept
Calvino Rabeni: Reality is not troubled by it :)
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
Eos Amaterasu: (Whitman again)
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Abe
Calvino Rabeni: In a way, paradox means, that people are trying to think with incompatible concepts, and shoe-horn them together
Abe Forsythe: hi
Abe Forsythe: not much going on?
Eos Amaterasu: Have you been to Play as Being, Abe?
Eos Amaterasu: before?
Abe Forsythe: no
Eos Amaterasu: I'll give you a notecard
Abe Forsythe: ok
Eos Amaterasu: basically we discuss the experience of reality, as directly as possible
Calvino Rabeni: The "pause" is coming up. When the bell rings, we stop for 90 seconds
Abe Forsythe: oh
Calvino Rabeni: Just so you know.
Calvino Rabeni: Every 15 minutes
Calvino Rabeni: It is an awareness exercise

--BELL--

Abe Forsythe: thank you
Eos Amaterasu: Our chats here are recorded, by the way, and posted to a Wiki: is that okay with you?
Abe Forsythe: yeah
Eos Amaterasu: http://playasbeing.wik.is/
Eos Amaterasu: We're having a "theme session" today, on "facilitation"


Calvino Rabeni: About paradox in practice - is the topic we were on.
Calvino Rabeni: The idea of a paradox often assumes people are very limited in time and space.
Calvino Rabeni: And knowledge, as if, were you to emphasize one principle it would interfere with another
Calvino Rabeni: Like an athlete runner thinking - hey I run, so I can't sleep.
Calvino Rabeni: It doesn't make sense, because he can do both!
Calvino Rabeni: Likewise with openness - sometimes open, sometimes structured
Calvino Rabeni: Or sometimes both at once.
Calvino Rabeni: At first, with practice, "one at a time" helps for learning.
Calvino Rabeni: I think that is more about letting people focus on learning
Calvino Rabeni: rather than about what is possible.
Calvino Rabeni: Ah, Pema, welcome
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Pema
Calvino Rabeni: I liked what you said earlier, Eos, about the facilitator kind of risking
Pema Pera: Calvino, Eos is trying to IM the session chat so far -- bear with us
Calvino Rabeni: OK thx
Pema Pera: ah, no reason to send it, Eos!
Pema Pera: I just clicked on the temp place of the listener
Eos Amaterasu: Yes, some risk is necessary cause the facilitator comes with an intention
Pema Pera: which you sent me -- it's all there already!!
Eos Amaterasu: and has to be willing to risk that intention
Pema Pera: so please go on and I'll catch up
Calvino Rabeni: And to be transparent
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Storm
Calvino Rabeni: Not completely, but to a greater degree
Storm Nordwind whispers "Hi everybody"
Pema Pera: Hi Storm, and hi Arch
Calvino Rabeni: Arch, Storm
Eos Amaterasu: In a way to hear each other the members of the group need to do the same
Eos Amaterasu: and then that opens the possibility of "we seeing"
Eos Amaterasu: not "group think" :-)
Calvino Rabeni: RIght, that is a derogative I suppose
Calvino Rabeni: I have two viewpoints, one from being, and one that is topical
Eos Amaterasu: topical re that intention we were talking about?
Calvino Rabeni: I think a combination is good, because "states of consciousness" are ephmeral
Calvino Rabeni: Perspectives on facilitation that can help orient
Eos Amaterasu: One perspective is that to facilitate is to hold an open container
Calvino Rabeni: Kind of like Sun Tzu said about the art of war. In a nutshell, know yourself, know your opponent. I'm not likening facilitation to war, but the principle holds of seeing both sides

--BELL--

Eos Amaterasu: One of the things we do in PaB sessions is to hold / stop / drop / share space / 90 secs together
Archmage Atlantis: Are we not at war? Is there not a side that seeks to destro? and another that seeks to preserve?
Eos Amaterasu: If it's correct to say that a group holding a group openness is what is facilitated
Calvino Rabeni: Well it is a metaphor that can lead to certain understandings
Eos Amaterasu: then we have the very seed of that in a very literal way.
Archmage Atlantis: Even inside ourselves?
Calvino Rabeni: May I present some topical perspectives?
Eos Amaterasu: Sure
Calvino Rabeni: They move from external to internal
Calvino Rabeni: Some perspectives in facilitation Organizational - Facilitation has something to do with leadership, and something to do with power. - Much study of facilitation is in the context of organizations, their needs, and the consultants who serve organizations. - Facilitation is regarded as a mode or skill of leadership. Coaching - Facilitation applied to the needs of individuals in the context of their normal affairs, such as life planning, professionalism. There is a growing industry in each of these areas. For links some links, see http://delicious.com/ca1vino/facilitation
Calvino Rabeni: Those are "external" perspectives.
Calvino Rabeni: I'm actually more intersted in some internal perspectives
Calvino Rabeni: I think PaB kind of predisposes one to internal.
Calvino Rabeni: So I would add the following:
Calvino Rabeni: To an extent, both of these perspectives assume what I call the "cult of the expert" - the idea that facilitation is a specialist skill, like accounting or operating heavy machinery. I want to advocate for more "internal", more personal, more "peer-oriented" perspectives on facilitation: Co-Facilitation - Create one-on-one relationships in which you learn to help each other in a systematic way, with personal issues and goals. Self-Facilitation - Do you have internalized authoritarianism? Do you tell yourself what to do, and then feel pulls in many directions? If it doesn't work so well in the real world, why should it work inside you? - There are many independent "voices" and needs/desires/objectives within an "individual". Why would it work for one stronger piece of "ego" to take control and expect the others to obey "its" commands? - There are also many people working with "voices", a kind of internal facilitation.
Calvino Rabeni: A principle - Skills of "internal" facilitation are partly transferable to the other facilitation contexts. - People who can relate skillfully and compassionately to their inner "voices" and shadow material are likely to be more capable when other people carry those same perspectives.
stevenaia Michinaga: hello
Calvino Rabeni: (I have a note card with that text - I don't actualy type like mad)
Pema Pera: Hi Steve!
Eos Amaterasu: Hi stevenaia
Calvino Rabeni: Good day, steve
Eos Amaterasu: Perhaps we can open the floor, so to speak?
Calvino Rabeni: My concern I suppose, is bridging the internal and external perspectives
Eos Amaterasu: I actually was going to object to characterizing PaB as being concerned with the internal
Calvino Rabeni: I see it as requiring some awareness practice to create the openness, along with some specific concepts about what to do with it in the world.
Archmage Atlantis: Bad metaphor for me *g*, falling on the floor is something I try to prevent due to physical limitations *g*
Eos Amaterasu: PaB can help bridge that .... contradiction?.... divide....
Eos Amaterasu: in which case Applied PaB is a non-issue :-
Calvino Rabeni: Openness plus structure - the "dreaded paradox"
Eos Amaterasu: It's like the container we are in
Eos Amaterasu: structure and lots of openness


Storm Nordwind: Have you been considering transparency (rather than openness) in facilitation at all?
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Calvino Rabeni: a bit
Pema Pera: yes, Eos, the whole notion of "Being" and hence the direction of "Play as Being" is to go beyond opposites such as internal and extrenal
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Storm Nordwind: The reason I ask about transparency is that I find it's hard to get greater cooperation without it.
Calvino Rabeni: My early training was Zazen in a martial arts dojo - I suppose that openness and structure were well-mixed in that school
Calvino Rabeni: I don't find the paradox very disturbing
Eos Amaterasu: can u say more about "transparency", Storm?

Meanwhile Archmage throws in the periodic riff...

Archmage Atlantis: Pema, there are those who judge......to be more open is to invite their judgement
Pema Pera: hi Hotaru!
Eos Amaterasu: Come jump in our pool, Hotaru!
Hotaru Myoo: hi Pema
Hotaru Myoo: ty!
Hotaru Myoo: I just might
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
Archmage Atlantis: ty for no snow
Hotaru Myoo: aww
Hotaru Myoo: I come with snow

Storm Nordwind: I find that facilitation is not the act of a single person and that the wider group needs to be involved - a kind of group meta-negotation. Without transparency on the part of the person supposed to be facilitator, about their motives (for example), there is no buyin and the project is obstructed at best
Calvino Rabeni: Yes really
Calvino Rabeni: the facilitator has to demonstrate the workability of openness
Calvino Rabeni: A real world example, teaching buddhist awareness techniques at a military base
Calvino Rabeni: where most of the soldiers are fundamentalist christian
Hotaru Myoo: obvoiusly
Calvino Rabeni: they are quick to judge
Calvino Rabeni: but also,motivated

--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: in that case some cultural sensitivity is important
Hotaru Myoo: aww
Hotaru Myoo: I am moved by the christian perspective
Hotaru Myoo: but I always aquiesce to the moment
Hotaru Myoo: sp*]
Pema Pera: there is also the question whether anything like facilitation has to be developed, or whether it would be a natural by-product of something else, in case it might be more effective to just focus on the something else -- awareness, compassion, appreciation . . . . so far we seem to assume that there is something that needs to be "done" in some way, are we sure that is actually correct?
Hotaru Myoo: b/c it is the moment that moves us
Hotaru Myoo: not really
Calvino Rabeni: In some ways, people are like an ocean liner - where they can go now, depends on what they started some time ago.
Hotaru Myoo: nothing needs to be done

Storm Nordwind: My experience with facilitation is that it works best when people feel they are all involved in it themselves. This comes from both an individual and group awareness, and a certain level of compassion.
Storm Nordwind: Thus there seems to be no one person people can point to as facilitator

Calvino Rabeni: it is pretty fluid
Pema Pera: like "resting in ease" might be enough, if enough of us really try to do that ("ease = facile => facilitation as a group)
Hotaru Myoo: nothing needs to be done
Calvino Rabeni: Earlier I stated the paradigm of "facilitator as leader" as a kind of oxymoron
Calvino Rabeni: In other words, I agree storm
Storm Nordwind nods
Hotaru Myoo: it is already happening
Eos Amaterasu: including our stirring of the soup
Calvino Rabeni: Resting at ease does not typically seem to shake people out of habits of being "on automatic"
Pema Pera: there's where the 9 sec comes in!
Calvino Rabeni: Unless someone is quite alert to the new energy that emerges
Calvino Rabeni: and sponsors it to come out
Pema Pera: stir, wait, stir again
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, rather taoist
Hotaru Myoo: always stirring
Pema Pera: or trust others to let it come out
Storm Nordwind: And breathe the aroma while waiting!
Hotaru Myoo: but
Calvino Rabeni: Drop Don't Stop
Hotaru Myoo: what is at the bottom of the pot?
Eos Amaterasu: this is not turtle soup
Calvino Rabeni: Can only speculate
Calvino Rabeni: Normally it is bottomless
Hotaru Myoo: hmmm
Hotaru Myoo: but is it
Hotaru Myoo: haha
Calvino Rabeni: It's like the bottomless cup of coffee in american diners :)
Hotaru Myoo: no it isn't
Storm Nordwind: Yeah - you can have as much as you like, but it's all ghastly!


Pema Pera: I have this strange trust in PaB, resting on the combination of 9-sec breaks as the low-level daily practice and the notion of Being as the high-level vision, and the play connecting the two, as being enough, without needing any specific extra "action" other than just a kind of administration (like wiki work, guardian schedules, scribe organization, etc)
Calvino Rabeni: Well, you can go to better establishments, storm :)

Pema Pera: perhaps it is enough to do the dishes, and leave the cooking to the Universe?
Hotaru Myoo: Pema...that is such a buy-out
Calvino Rabeni: That is an important perspective and experiment for some to have, Pema
Calvino Rabeni: Of course, there are lots of people in the world who think in lots of different ways

Archmage Atlantis: Perception vs buyout, interesting

Pema Pera: let me clarify: I mean no need for pre-meditated and organized "action" -- spontaneous action on the spot may be enough
Pema Pera: I'm not advocating total inaction

Calvino Rabeni: A facilitator must be somewhat of a chameleon , or very adaptable

Pema Pera: wu-wei is what I mean
Storm Nordwind: Simply being sensitive at the time to what is needed. Seeing what is in the process of becoming.
Hotaru Myoo: explain?
Calvino Rabeni: Wu Wei is following the condition of what exists - including any structure
Pema Pera: and wu-wei grows not from analyzing notions like facilitation, but from appreciation and awareness
Hotaru Myoo: uh uh
Hotaru Myoo: no
Pema Pera: "wu-wei" is literally "not-doing" meaning not forcefully intervening
Hotaru Myoo: being trumped makes you move
Hotaru Myoo: in some other direction

Calvino Rabeni: Yes, "forcefully" means, imposing something contrary to what is already there
Hotaru Myoo: abstructing the structure
Calvino Rabeni: But you are a creator of what is already thre
Calvino Rabeni: The creating happens now, and in the past
Hotaru Myoo: so what?

Eos Amaterasu: which means any doing is possible

Pema Pera: we've talked about facilator as a person or as a group, but how about a no-self picture, in which there are no selves, no persons as such, just wu-wei? facilitation as just appearing?
Pema Pera: without a you there!
Calvino Rabeni: That would be dualistic in a sense.
Hotaru Myoo: hmm
Paradise Tennant: :) is hmmm too
Hotaru Myoo: but how can that happen without buyin

Storm Nordwind: On an individual level Pema, that would appear possible, even easy. But what about working with a group, where levels of trust and insight may vary widely?

Eos Amaterasu: "Does Being need us to facilitate it?" may not be the right question

Calvino Rabeni: I agree Pema, but it is not the whole picture in my opinion

Pema Pera: Storm, it is a matter of sowing seeds and seeing what grows

Calvino Rabeni: Facilitation is our way to go along with being

Hotaru Myoo: yes, but
Hotaru Myoo: whose seeds?

Pema Pera: whether the group will grow into it is an open question, an experiment, an adventure
Hotaru Myoo: and what grows?
Calvino Rabeni: Storms point is well taken
Pema Pera: seeds: anyone exploring wu-wei
Eos Amaterasu: ideally you find the seeds... right now!
Pema Pera: grows: the group moving to more and more wu-wei
Calvino Rabeni: Cultivation
Calvino Rabeni: requires time
Pema Pera: 9-sec breaks are also good seeds
Hotaru Myoo: yes,
Pema Pera: :)
Eos Amaterasu: and the 90 secs is such a seed
Hotaru Myoo: of course
Hotaru Myoo: that is the buy-in
Hotaru Myoo: ahh
Calvino Rabeni: yes, in a sense, what you "plant" in the 9-sec will grow later
Hotaru Myoo: perhaps

Eos Amaterasu: gateless gate
Pema Pera: Being needs no help, ultimately -- THAT is wu-wei

--BELL--

Hotaru Myoo: but that requires the ego to dissolve
Storm Nordwind: The seed is a biased metaphor, as two different plants cannot grow from the same type of seed. But in this circumstance they could.

Hotaru Myoo: yes
Hotaru Myoo: given the same sod
Hotaru Myoo: the same fruit
Hotaru Myoo: the same love
Hotaru Myoo: perhaps

Pema Pera: Being needs no help, but can and will express its help through us -- but not by us planning to help Being beforehand, rather by us creating the space, stepping aside, letting Being express itself while celebrating that expression.
Calvino Rabeni: Facilitation is chop-wood-carry-water
Archmage Atlantis: To be, or not to be, that is the question, whether it is nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, or by opposing end them
Hotaru Myoo: but what about the universals?
Eos Amaterasu: "rather by us creating the space" : that is what takes form :-)

Pema Pera: and from the outside it may seem as if we are becoming very good facilitators, while we actually become more like children . . . .
Calvino Rabeni: Can't chop against the grain

Paradise Tennant: being is the "as is" view ... the whole.. in a way .. backing out the self .. lets you really see it ..

Calvino Rabeni: Sure Pema
Hotaru Myoo: that assumes no patterns in the universe
Calvino Rabeni: And there is form along with the formless
Paradise Tennant: but so very hard to do ..
Hotaru Myoo: no widely universal norms
Pema Pera: actually one pattern is my work calling me back, sorry, 1 pm here after lunch
Hotaru Myoo: that affecxt al of us
Calvino Rabeni: Thanks for joining, Pema
Pema Pera: (yes, very hard, but the 9-sec breaks are relentness, training us!)
Paradise Tennant: :) waves at pema .. enjoy your day..
Hotaru Myoo: see!!!!
Calvino Rabeni: Bye
stevenaia Michinaga: bye pema
Storm Nordwind waves
Hotaru Myoo: tada!
Pema Pera: thanks for organizing these sessions, Calvino and Eos -- much food for thought!
Hotaru Myoo: matane
Calvino Rabeni: YVW
Pema Pera: bfn, hehe Hotaru!
Calvino Rabeni: Pema is a champion of the "void" side of things
Hotaru Myoo: kma
Eos Amaterasu: He would deny that
Paradise Tennant: hmm not sure it is a void as much as base
Calvino Rabeni: And it is a principle of PaB
Archmage Atlantis: Yes, Pema deserves appreciation
Hotaru Myoo: hehe
Calvino Rabeni: Yes he does
Hotaru Myoo: awww
Calvino Rabeni: Standing up for the occluded awareness
Hotaru Myoo: c'mon
Paradise Tennant: :) cal
Storm Nordwind: Standing up for the non-dual
Hotaru Myoo: I love him like myself...but c'mon
Calvino Rabeni: Of course, someone should give him a hard time :)
Calvino Rabeni: Maybe we could out-source it.
Hotaru Myoo: haha

Eos Amaterasu: Hypothesis: it is sufficient to inject 9-secs or 90-secs gaps into an organization's being-time to significantly affect it

Hotaru Myoo: ok
Eos Amaterasu: that in a way is the claim of applied PaB?
Storm Nordwind: Evidence to support the hypothesis?
Eos Amaterasu: doug?
doug Sosa: :)
Archmage Atlantis: It is the concept Eos, not the application, that matters here
Calvino Rabeni: Disagree, perhaps - concepts live in the world
Calvino Rabeni: and are its creature
Paradise Tennant: :)
Eos Amaterasu: concepts also shape the world
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
doug Sosa: and the world shapes concepts too?
Calvino Rabeni: But they do not have to limit it
Paradise Tennant: the world is really kind of shifty .. when you get right down to it !
Calvino Rabeni: Right
doug Sosa: shifty world, shifty concepts. good dance.
Eos Amaterasu: it swivels its hips
Eos Amaterasu: it swivels and bops
Calvino Rabeni: Be bops
Eos Amaterasu: the play part is the wilingness to play with form

Eos Amaterasu: to wei
Eos Amaterasu: not just to wu

Hotaru Myoo: of course it is
Eos Amaterasu: and to play with dropping
Calvino Rabeni: So, the invitation is - to take on facilitation without stepping into the control fantasy
Hotaru Myoo: pfft
Eos Amaterasu: but to "hold space": heh heh
Eos Amaterasu: just like this pavilion holds space
Storm Nordwind: But is open to all comers
Eos Amaterasu: yes
Calvino Rabeni: Some think that would be enough, to hold space
Archmage Atlantis: Dorothy did the last good dropping I remember, *g*
Hotaru Myoo nods
Eos Amaterasu: can you hold space without form?
Paradise Tennant: control fantasy is a lovely term
Calvino Rabeni: And when the meditation is over, then what?
Storm Nordwind: Yes, Eos. You clear it of clutter!
Hotaru Myoo: then there is peace\\
Calvino Rabeni: It is back to "form city", unless your group is enlightened
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
Paradise Tennant: which is here right now
Paradise Tennant: :)
Archmage Atlantis: Reality as we understand it, it comes back Cal
doug Sosa: ut there is lots of clutter here too, and it is ok.
Hotaru Myoo: mmmm...let there be peace
doug Sosa: so it is seing whatever it is with a a calmer engagement. not denial, not neediness.
Calvino Rabeni: When it comes back, you need to have "stories" or things that are in an enlightened view, fiction
Eos Amaterasu: how you describe the seeing
Eos Amaterasu: PaB is not blind
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, a shift in the feeling of stories, can be important in the world
Calvino Rabeni: Like the story of "the economy"
Calvino Rabeni: It won't go Poof
Calvino Rabeni: But it may seem different as time goes on
Calvino Rabeni: If Doug's desire comes towards fruition
Calvino Rabeni: Keep it up :)
Eos Amaterasu: Suggestion for next 90 secs: what is the story?
Calvino Rabeni: :) 

--BELL--

Eos Amaterasu: Wow!
Eos Amaterasu: This was great - first time in this session, a 90 secs all held by all
Storm Nordwind chuckles
Hotaru Myoo: awww

Archmage Atlantis: This is an old thought poem
Archmage Atlantis: I have shared it before
Archmage Atlantis: It is still my answer
Archmage Atlantis:

Ziggarat Clarity as Insanity 
The ziggarat is built it stands in the world of dreams 
The past is brought forward 
To guide the future 
All gods and Gods are called home 
All the female force is gathered 
The birthing shall begin a new creation

Hotaru Myoo: wow
Hotaru Myoo: thank you

doug Sosa: the story to me starts here in this strange place, eight people gather, hearts beating, thoughts congealing or vaporizing..
Calvino Rabeni: Usually the female force is so spread around, it is unusual to think if it gathered into a potent mass
Calvino Rabeni: yin becomes yang
Hotaru Myoo: a wonderful perspective
Eos Amaterasu: Yes, I had a very strong sense of the 8 people here
doug Sosa: I had a teaher once, said "when in doubt, feed them."
Paradise Tennant: :) yes .. amazing how prescence is felt .. how we perceived attention .. proximity regardless of the medium
Hotaru Myoo: ^^;

Calvino Rabeni: be a good host
Calvino Rabeni: think with stomach not head
Calvino Rabeni: empty head, full belly, or something like that
Hotaru Myoo: hehe
Storm Nordwind: Do we project ourselves into a common space? Or do we sense and locate the others in our own space? Or something else entirely?
Hotaru Myoo: if you are lucky enough
Eos Amaterasu: hard to tell, isn't it?
doug Sosa: isn't a mix of those?
Calvino Rabeni: Something slightly else, I guess
Calvino Rabeni: we create the space by reaching out to others doing the same
Paradise Tennant: :) well ..I think it is our occluded awareness .. at full tilt :)

doug Sosa: Pure stsates of mind seem to me to be the most dangerous.
Calvino Rabeni: Paradise what is occluded?
Storm Nordwind runs and hides from the doug's danger!
Eos Amaterasu: thank goodnes they're transitory, doug
Paradise Tennant: the ability to know an object is there when it is blocked by another object
Paradise Tennant: babies have it
Calvino Rabeni: right, they are self canceling
Paradise Tennant: makes us more evolved
Calvino Rabeni: light without dark is the dangerous thing
Storm Nordwind: We can know objects inferentially though
Calvino Rabeni: as we generally / always do

Eos Amaterasu: in a way we can never be totally sure..... which means we're either in humor or in paranoia

Archmage Atlantis: the moment is passed, I go to dance......thank you all for your kindness

doug Sosa: then we face the inferencer - ourself. object and knower are co-determined.
Calvino Rabeni: Oh there I go again, universalizing. :)

Eos Amaterasu: Ciao, arch
Paradise Tennant: waves at arch :) enjoy the dance
Storm Nordwind waves
Hotaru Myoo: we are
Hotaru Myoo: waves back

doug Sosa: 9 sec in the middle of a political discussion today. Saw that
stevenaia Michinaga: night all
Paradise Tennant: I think the progress we will make if we persist in this practise is understanding .. better the "whole" the big picture ...
Calvino Rabeni: Bye steve
doug Sosa: the repubs and dems will struggle into this next election over who has power, but
Paradise Tennant: nite steve :)
doug Sosa: there is no discussion of what to do with it.
Calvino Rabeni: That is power as an abstraction
Calvino Rabeni: Sad
doug Sosa: I don't think it is abstract at all. very visceral.
Storm Nordwind: Please excuse me. I need to go. And for those with an acute eye, the ice on the pond is slowly melting! ;)
doug Sosa: "this place is open to all", but it is not. there are many real
Eos Amaterasu: concentrically
Paradise Tennant: waves at storm :)
Paradise Tennant: looks hard at the ice :)
Storm Nordwind: Namaste
Calvino Rabeni: C U , storm
Eos Amaterasu: ~~

--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
doug Sosa: barriers to being here.I love noticing the ice. thanks.
Hotaru Myoo: _/ <3 |-

Storm Nordwind: It will take another 40 hours or so Paradise
Calvino Rabeni: SL's best obi flies now
Paradise Tennant: wow hotaru .. that is cool :)
Hotaru Myoo: nite all!
doug Sosa: i recognize that dance.
Paradise Tennant: nite nite
Eos Amaterasu: appreciate the presence of Hotaru :-)



Eos Amaterasu: power is a kind of energy or stance, frozen into identity
Eos Amaterasu: the medium has become the message
Eos Amaterasu: the rigidity of holding
Eos Amaterasu: and totally forgetting the space
Eos Amaterasu: no "mother" (Eos' mind is addled by "Avatar")
Calvino Rabeni: Power may be used well
doug Sosa: avatar was intense.
Paradise Tennant: did you see the film eos
Eos Amaterasu: yes, digital 3D
Paradise Tennant: I want too have not had a chance
Paradise Tennant: wow
Calvino Rabeni: What was the intensity Doug?
doug Sosa: No power, the body cannot stand. no poer society does not cohere.
Calvino Rabeni: Structure is your friend
Calvino Rabeni: gravity, friction too
Eos Amaterasu: space is invisible without form
doug Sosa: The beauty of the people, thier primitiveness, the tech of the film, the edginess of political themes.
Calvino Rabeni: the rigidity of your bones, something you depend on at every moment
Paradise Tennant: is happy she has a skeletal structure ..does make life easier :)
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Eos Amaterasu: Re facilitation, and seeing it as hosting, part of it is holding the space in a literal way: the container in which people are meeting
Eos Amaterasu: renting it
Eos Amaterasu: arranging it
Eos Amaterasu: serving it over the time period of the group getting together
Paradise Tennant: :) thank you .. tonight was very lively .. I will scurry out in the cold with the dog .. _ smiling :) happy I was part of this shared space ;)
Calvino Rabeni: generosity of lending being to create the container
doug Sosa: I must say
Eos Amaterasu: be para
Eos Amaterasu: bye
doug Sosa: i like sitting with the three of you.
Calvino Rabeni: Bye
doug Sosa: bye.
Eos Amaterasu: ^_^
Paradise Tennant: big wave from a very frosty toronto :)
doug Sosa: female company is good.
Eos Amaterasu: "the world moves on a woman's hips" (Talking Heads)

doug Sosa: Dare i take a minute to tell you what is on my mind?
Eos Amaterasu: Sure

doug Sosa: OK. we are on a trian careening across a landsape that we can hardly see, but for those with eyes and hearts, there are people out there not doing well, and the train is falling apart, but we can't stop because most of the people on the train are fed and nourished by its speed. if the train were to stop or slow, they would die, yet the train continues to disintegrate. What to do? Write poems?


Eos Amaterasu: go down with the ship
Eos Amaterasu: the train being nourished by its speed is a suicidal proposition, utlimately
doug Sosa: i take that as well considered opinion.
Calvino Rabeni: It is an exaggerated metaphor - although partly true

--BELL--

Eos Amaterasu: Avatar is an example of taking advantage of the speed, wealth of the train to illuminate the train
Calvino Rabeni: Seems to be two possibilities - die, or arrange for softer landing
doug Sosa: also well considered.
Calvino Rabeni: Speed is an omnipresent psychological motif
Calvino Rabeni: Slowing the train down is not an impossibility
doug Sosa: the slower the fewer people it feeds, unless we get really smart.
Calvino Rabeni: there is a lot of headroom with efficiency
Calvino Rabeni: lots of waste
Eos Amaterasu: that's questionable though, isn't it, doug?
doug Sosa: which eos?
Eos Amaterasu: from today's framing we say we need more and more speed
Calvino Rabeni: that is the constructed myth
doug Sosa: and?
Eos Amaterasu: slowing down could feed more
doug Sosa: how?
Calvino Rabeni: the economic-growth myth
Eos Amaterasu: grow locally
Eos Amaterasu: takes more time
Eos Amaterasu: is less efficient
Eos Amaterasu: is much richer
Calvino Rabeni: not necessarily less efficient
Eos Amaterasu: generates wealth of goods and of time
doug Sosa: yes, but as we see, in much of the world that looks like a narrowing possibility.
Calvino Rabeni: when oil is expensive the distribution economies will change a lot
Eos Amaterasu: beacaue we've ripped it away from that rest of the world
doug Sosa: Yes, but increasing the price willl fall harder on poorer people.
Eos Amaterasu: food aid calls for faster farming in develeoped countries, and destroys farming in undeveloped
doug Sosa: yes, deeply agree.
Calvino Rabeni: see, most of the thinking on this issue is predicated on the idea that we must maintain our present system and rate at all costs
Calvino Rabeni: that is non-negotiable in the usual dialogue
Eos Amaterasu: two things I see: 1) basic mythologies of majority of people need to grow, deepen
doug Sosa: which we know is not working. lsow suicide getting faster. but how to slow, how to help the weaker. how to prevent lots of violence?
Eos Amaterasu: 2) that's not enough: there is much power concentrated in a very few people
Eos Amaterasu: those have to be moved, or allowed to self-destruct
Calvino Rabeni: How, doug?
Calvino Rabeni: What are the proposals?
doug Sosa: yes, but letting up on the structure would probably rupture it. this is a delicate operation.
Calvino Rabeni: What is the evidence for that idea?
Eos Amaterasu: for example, the pseudo financial system needs to be allowed to self-destruct
Calvino Rabeni: It sounds like the "ego of the economy"
Eos Amaterasu: without taking dow the "real" wealth generation systems with it
doug Sosa: there really are not many proposals. local are the most obvious. tech fixes only aim to maintain the speed.
Eos Amaterasu: speed limits
Calvino Rabeni: How many versions of localism are there?
doug Sosa: i think we can look at revolutions, civil wars, when old strucutres fallaway, the increased entropy leads to violence.

Eos Amaterasu: localism is also in time, as well as in space

doug Sosa: Still supposition, though worthy.

Eos Amaterasu: PaB helps with resting with increased entropy :-)
Calvino Rabeni: Economic and social activists get scared, paranoid.
Calvino Rabeni: What are they doing to counter that?
doug Sosa: Yes, PaB really helps
Eos Amaterasu: but then how do you scale up PaB?
Eos Amaterasu: 9 sec pauses during newscasts?

doug Sosa: to the extent that activists sacre the train owners and staf, they are in danger.
Calvino Rabeni: They scare themselve silly

doug Sosa: on scaling 9 sec. i noticed it the last week when people said "happy new year"..
Eos Amaterasu: (I will have to depart after next bell : 1 am here...)
doug Sosa: they seemed to have a different tone, more 'we need a happy new year", or even deeper, more aware of our mutual compassion, not so flip.
Calvino Rabeni: The PaB pause is a way of dropping the fear
Eos Amaterasu: sounds good, doug
Calvino Rabeni: but there are many ways of doing that
Calvino Rabeni: and they all have value
Calvino Rabeni: It is important to sense what is in the wind like that, doug
doug Sosa: eos and cal, thanks for the discussion.
Calvino Rabeni: glad you came
doug Sosa: me too. night ..
Eos Amaterasu: facilitation and applied PaB (as in PaB and sustainability) intersect, for sure
Calvino Rabeni: I was eating some of doug's "economic" corn chips
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
Calvino Rabeni: Tasting the "economy" in them
doug Sosa: i like to not use applied pab. i think the issues show up in any old Pab. not special
doug Sosa: rules or focus necessary.

Eos Amaterasu: APaB (A=applied) is just a meta-statemnet, that PaB is not separate from this world

Calvino Rabeni: Is that a proposed rule, doug, of "no rules" :)
doug Sosa: the economy is in any Pab setting, and if we don't notice it, repression.
Calvino Rabeni: I need to talk to you about this, Doug. Soon / another time.
Eos Amaterasu: this is the nightcap coming up

--BELL--

doug Sosa: and you both have neen great listeners as i've struggled with this.
doug Sosa: poof.
Eos Amaterasu: Bye Calvino!
Eos Amaterasu: Thanks for this!
Calvino Rabeni: Bye, Eos
Calvino Rabeni: YW, same to you :)