2009.08.03 13:00 - Influence

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Stim Morane. The comments are by Stim Morane.

    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Bertram and Scath :)
    Bertram Jacobus: helllo gaya and scathatch :-)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Gaya, Bertram
    Scathach Rhiadra: How are you both today?
    Gaya Ethaniel: A bit under the weather otherwise well, thanks. Yourself?
    Bertram Jacobus: ty. okay. although some bad things happend today to me ... - and you ? ;-)
    Gaya Ethaniel: I'm sorry to hear that Betram.
    Scathach Rhiadra: I'm ok thank you
    Bertram Jacobus: ty for compassion gaya :-)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, and that you are not well Gaya
    Bertram Jacobus: hi stim and hana ... :-)
    Gaya Ethaniel: yay Stim, welcome back :)
    Hana Furlough: hello everyone!
    Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks Scath :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Stim!
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Hana :)
    Bertram Jacobus: oh. hello pema. long time no see :-) ...
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Pema :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Hana
    Hana Furlough: hi pema
    Stim Morane: Hi Gaya, Hana, Scathach, Bertram, Pema
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Pema
    Pema Pera: Hi everybody!
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Pema Pera: I'm back in the US, Bert, that's why I can attend afternoon sessions again (it was in the middle of the night for me in Japan)
    Bertram Jacobus: yes, i thought about that pema ...
    Pema Pera: And welcome back, Stim! Did you have a good retreat?
    Stim Morane: It was OK, thanks.
    Bertram Jacobus: may i ask : which kind of retreat that was ?
    Stim Morane: Hard to describe ... meditation, basically.
    Bertram Jacobus: buddhistic ? ;-)
    Stim Morane: Yes, primarily
    Bertram Jacobus: sorry - i may be to curious ... *slightly sigh* ...
    Stim Morane: Sure ... I just don't have a very good short answer.
    Pema Pera: Oh, Bert, you'll get used to Stim's "short answers" :-) if you keep asking you'll get more and more, just be patient :-)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Bertram Jacobus: oh. sometimes i´m shy ...
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Bertram Jacobus: hello qt ... :-)
    Pema Pera: after he will say a few times more that there is little to say, all kind of interesting insights will come out
    Pema Pera: so please keep asking!
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Qt :)
    Pema Pera: Hi Qt
    Qt Core: hi all
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Qt
    Stim Morane: Hi QT
    Bertram Jacobus: would be wonderful ! :-)
    Hana Furlough: hi qt~
    Bertram Jacobus: i had already in mind : long answers would be very fine, too ;-)
    Bertram Jacobus: and ... how long was that stim ?
    Stim Morane: 2 weeks
    Stim Morane: It's hard to describe the events I do because they are quite different for different people
    Bertram Jacobus: whaow ! that´s already a serious time for a retreat (!) ... :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: and i think, also the own impressions always are interesting, because authentic ...
    Pema Pera: Hi Fefonz!
    Bertram Jacobus: which group is that who leads the retreats ?
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Fefonz
    Bertram Jacobus: hello fefonz ... :-)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Fefonz :)
    Stim Morane: Hi Feforz
    Stim Morane: Fefonz
    Qt Core: hi fefonz
    Hana Furlough: hi fefonz
    Fefonz Quan: Hello Stim, Scath, Gaya, Pema, Bert, Qt and Hana
    Fefonz Quan: and Hi eliza!
    Bertram Jacobus: hello eliza ... :-)
    Hana Furlough: hi eliza!
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello eliza
    Pema Pera: Hi Eliza!
    Stim Morane: Hi Eliza
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Eliza :)
    Eliza Madrigal: WB Stim, and nice to see you at a 1PM Pema :)
    Bertram Jacobus: hello eos ... :-)
    Fefonz Quan: Hey Eos
    Stim Morane: thanks
    Hana Furlough: hi there eos!
    Stim Morane: Hi Eos
    Pema Pera: Thanks, Eliza!
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Scath, Hana, Gaya, Bertram, QT, Fef, Eos! :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello eos
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi all - wow, what a group ( i can only stay briefly)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Eos :)
    Pema Pera: As to <[13:12] Bertram Jacobus: which group is that who leads the retreats ?> the answer, Bert, is that Stim leads the retreats and the group is his group of students in RL, where he is Steven Tainer
    Bertram Jacobus: :-)oh i see. and is it in any traditional line ?
    Stim Morane: oh, sorry, I didn't see that question
    Bertram Jacobus: np at all
    Bertram Jacobus: hello sophias ... :-)
    Pema Pera: Hi SophiaSharon!
    Stim Morane: Again, I can't really characterize my emphasis because it varies depending on the participant's needs
    Hana Furlough: hi there sophias
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Sophiasharon
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi SophiaSharon :)
    Stim Morane: Hi SophiaSharon
    SophiaSharon Larnia: HI all am sorry I'm late (sits quietly)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello SophiaSharon :)
    Bertram Jacobus: "but" - which form of buddhism is it in your retreats stim ? if i may ask further on (?) zen, tibetan, anything else ?
    Fefonz Quan: Hi SophiaSharon
    Bertram Jacobus: (sorry : i´m always very interested in such topics) ...
    Fefonz Quan: the empty form? :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Stim Morane: Ch'an (Zen), Indian Buddhism, other traditions
    Bertram Jacobus: ah. ty :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: brb
    Bertram Jacobus: at the moment i make again some experiences in my life as if i could influence nothing really - does anybody knows such feelings ? and if yes, how to cope with that ?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Sorry to interrupt, please ignore me relogging. Lagging badly tonight ...
    Stim Morane: what would be an example, Bertram?
    Bertram Jacobus: that i try and try to prevent that starnge companies withdraw money from my bank account and even the bank employees don´t react in a proper way. same with the callcenters, again and again, all goes badly. not normal.
    Bertram Jacobus: hello sophia ... :-)
    Hana Furlough: hi sophia
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Sophia
    Pema Pera: Hi Sophia!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi sophia :)
    Bertram Jacobus: and that is only ONE example
    Fefonz Quan: Hi Sophia, nice wings :)
    Stim Morane: Yes, I understand now. The modern world is plagued by such things.
    Bertram Jacobus: hello shyama ... :-)
    sophia Placebo: ^^ ty
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Shyama
    Stim Morane: Hi Shyama
    Fefonz Quan: Hi shyama
    Shyama Sheryffe: hello everyone
    Bertram Jacobus: is it a kind of decadence and nothing to be done ?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello sophia and Shyama :)
    Hana Furlough: hello shyama
    Stim Morane: brb
    Pema Pera: Hi Shyama
    Fefonz Quan: Do you mean only influence in cases where other people are involved?
    Fefonz Quan: (for Bert)
    Bertram Jacobus: nice distinction fef. am not sure. would spontaneous say : no, not only with persons ... but i don´t know. why do you ask ? :-)
    Fefonz Quan: cause for me i would less expect to have onfluence (not to say control) when others are invlolved.
    Fefonz Quan: influence*
    Bertram Jacobus: oh i see okay
    Fefonz Quan: but if it goes also to more self-oriented issues, that sounds like a different game to me
    Bertram Jacobus: self orientated ? that means to me or to the issues ? :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: Gaya, I'd tie you down if I could :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Sorry you are having trouble :(
    Fefonz Quan: didn't manage to find the right term, meant for situations that are more seperated from other,
    Eos Amaterasu departs quietly, wishes everone well
    Bertram Jacobus: bye eos ... :-)
    sophia Placebo: bye eos
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Eos :)
    Hana Furlough: bye eos
    Stim Morane: bye Eos
    Shyama Sheryffe: bye eos
    Fefonz Quan: (like, i can't influence my thoughts/feelings etc.)
    Fefonz Quan: Bye Eos
    Bertram Jacobus: oh yes. thats very clear now fef ty
    Gaya Ethaniel: Bye Eos.
    Bertram Jacobus: but what do you all think ? : do we have influence or is it only illusion ?
    Fefonz Quan: guess that would require to talk about what 'we' has that influence
    Gaya Ethaniel: I'm sorry but it's one of those sessions. Nice seeing you again Stim and Pema. Have a good day/night everyone :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Gaya
    sophia Placebo: bye gaya
    Fefonz Quan: nite Gaya!
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Gaya
    Pema Pera: bye Gaya!
    Stim Morane: Bye Gaya
    Shyama Sheryffe: bye gaya
    Hana Furlough: i should go too
    Bertram Jacobus: wish you more luck with the technique very soon gaya !
    Hana Furlough: bye everyone~
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Hana :)
    Fefonz Quan: bye Hana
    Shyama Sheryffe: bye hana
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Hana
    sophia Placebo: bye hana
    Bertram Jacobus: then bye hana too
    Eliza Madrigal: Bert, it seems a little too large a scope to ask if we have influence at all? I know in my own life there are issues I feel are easily touched, right next to things that haven't moved in decades. :)
    Stim Morane: By the standards normally applied to this case, yes, we can often have great influence, or some, or none, depending on the circumstances.
    Fefonz Quan nods
    Fefonz Quan: sometimes we have a lot of influence, though not the planned/desired one
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Stim Morane: :)
    Bertram Jacobus: it´s a very basic question or may be eliza ...
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes, it may be :)
    Stim Morane: for example, we are trying to respond to your question, so you have influence over us.
    Bertram Jacobus: but is that perhaps only a relative, deceptive impression ?
    Stim Morane: how would you decide?
    Bertram Jacobus: if i knew i wouldn´t ask i guess ? may be i´m confused ... (?)
    Stim Morane: well, it's a time-honored question you're asking.
    Stim Morane: But one that has resisted analysis. Meanwhile, the world goes on, and we do our best.
    Fefonz Quan: DOn't you feel, on a very daily level, that if you learn more for a test it will increase the chance to pass it?
    Bertram Jacobus: sure i do
    Eliza Madrigal: Our best surely counts for something ? :))
    Bertram Jacobus: you are right
    Bertram Jacobus: fef
    Fefonz Quan: So it is another level that bothers you?
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. my old question : suffer seems not to end. (sry pema - you said, no logic would help here) - but my experience seems to show that. it´s cruel and only lies can cover this impression at the moment for me (that suffer never ends)
    Fefonz Quan: maybe the cause to suffer goes on...
    Shyama Sheryffe: as long as we cling...
    Fefonz Quan: cling on :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. it is said and seems to be plausible that that runs already since beginningless times. so it has to run firther on to endless times, too, logically
    Bertram Jacobus: further*
    Fefonz Quan: me wasn't aiming for that...
    sophia Placebo: going out of the womb is painfull process for baby but then it is his birth process
    Fefonz Quan: claims about beginningles times are quite hard to respond to for my opinion
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, isn't it more helpful to ask how to respond to suffering, in some ways?
    Bertram Jacobus: nice reactions ...
    Fefonz Quan nods, and look at relevant present suffering and it's reason,
    Fefonz Quan: otherwise it is like talking about world peace. not doing much good...
    Fefonz Quan: and btw - if you look around you ca also find joyful things happening, not just suffering
    Fefonz Quan: can*
    Bertram Jacobus: switch to the absolute may help ... ;-)
    Shyama Sheryffe: yes, shouldnt we ask first, why do i suffer ?
    Fefonz Quan: i am not sure about that Bert.
    Fefonz Quan: (not that i now how to do that switch really, not philosophically)
    Pema Pera: good question, Shyama!
    Qt Core: need to go, bye all
    Fefonz Quan: Bye Qt
    sophia Placebo: bye qt
    Bertram Jacobus: and i am quite convinced, that the relative always is accompanied by pain, but sometimes only very subtile ...
    Shyama Sheryffe: bye qt
    Bertram Jacobus: bye qt
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Qt
    Stim Morane: bye qt
    Fefonz Quan: oain and suffering are not the same.
    Fefonz Quan: pain*
    Eliza Madrigal: I see what you are saying Bert. It is like the forgiveness issue. That the facts may be that someone commited a wrong, but the truth is the person isn't just the wrong they commited.
    sophia Placebo: can you say more about relative and pain bert
    Bertram Jacobus: yes sophia : i feel the three forms of pain which are explained in buddhism for example : the apperently suffering, the suffering because of impernanance and the most subtile, the suffering of the relative in general. i think that is because of the seperation
    Scathach Rhiadra: I must go, good night all, nice to see you Stim and Pema
    Fefonz Quan: nite Scath
    Stim Morane: Bye Scathach
    Eliza Madrigal: Night Scath :)
    sophia Placebo: bye scath
    Pema Pera: yes, time for me too, bye everybody!
    Bertram Jacobus: bye scathatch ...
    Fefonz Quan: nite Pema
    Stim Morane: Bye Pema
    Shyama Sheryffe: nite scath
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Pema
    Bertram Jacobus: bye pema ...
    sophia Placebo: bye pema
    Pema Pera: good seeing you again, Bert, and nice meeting you Shyama
    Shyama Sheryffe: and pema
    Bertram Jacobus: ty ...
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye all :) I must leave also, take care all!!!
    Eliza Madrigal: Me too... dd and friends to take out for her birthday :) Thank all :)
    Fefonz Quan: bye sophiasharon
    Bertram Jacobus: bye sophais - same for you
    sophia Placebo: bye sophia
    Fefonz Quan: and Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Bfn
    sophia Placebo: bye eliza
    Stim Morane: same here ... bye, everyone!
    Bertram Jacobus: bye eliza have a nice day
    Bertram Jacobus: bye stim
    sophia Placebo: bye stim
    Fefonz Quan: Bye Stim
    Shyama Sheryffe: good time to go to bed, nite everyone
    Fefonz Quan: nite
    sophia Placebo: nite shayam
    Bertram Jacobus: good nite shyama
    sophia Placebo: i see bert , i dont have a clear idea about pain and buddism so ...
    sophia Placebo: or sufffering
    Bertram Jacobus: may i stop at this point ? sorry if i interrupt to much - but ... nap attack here ...
    sophia Placebo: :) me too time to sleep
    Fefonz Quan: ok, sleep well Bert, Sophia
    Bertram Jacobus: fine - yes - have a good time please and ty
    Fefonz Quan: have a good night Sophia
    sophia Placebo: bye fef :)

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