2009.08.03 13:00 - Influence

The Guardian for this meeting was Stim Morane. The comments are by Stim Morane.

Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Bertram and Scath :)
--BELL--
Bertram Jacobus: helllo gaya and scathatch :-)
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Gaya, Bertram
Scathach Rhiadra: How are you both today?
Gaya Ethaniel: A bit under the weather otherwise well, thanks. Yourself?
Bertram Jacobus: ty. okay. although some bad things happend today to me ... - and you ? ;-)
Gaya Ethaniel: I'm sorry to hear that Betram.
Scathach Rhiadra: I'm ok thank you
Bertram Jacobus: ty for compassion gaya :-)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Scathach Rhiadra: yes, and that you are not well Gaya
Bertram Jacobus: hi stim and hana ... :-)
Gaya Ethaniel: yay Stim, welcome back :)
Hana Furlough: hello everyone!
Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks Scath :)
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Stim!
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Hana :)
Bertram Jacobus: oh. hello pema. long time no see :-) ...
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Pema :)
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Hana
Hana Furlough: hi pema
Stim Morane: Hi Gaya, Hana, Scathach, Bertram, Pema
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Pema
Pema Pera: Hi everybody!
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Pema Pera: I'm back in the US, Bert, that's why I can attend afternoon sessions again (it was in the middle of the night for me in Japan)
Bertram Jacobus: yes, i thought about that pema ...
Pema Pera: And welcome back, Stim! Did you have a good retreat?
Stim Morane: It was OK, thanks.
Bertram Jacobus: may i ask : which kind of retreat that was ?
Stim Morane: Hard to describe ... meditation, basically.
Bertram Jacobus: buddhistic ? ;-)
Stim Morane: Yes, primarily
Bertram Jacobus: sorry - i may be to curious ... *slightly sigh* ...
Stim Morane: Sure ... I just don't have a very good short answer.
Pema Pera: Oh, Bert, you'll get used to Stim's "short answers" :-) if you keep asking you'll get more and more, just be patient :-)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Bertram Jacobus: oh. sometimes i´m shy ...
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Bertram Jacobus: hello qt ... :-)
Pema Pera: after he will say a few times more that there is little to say, all kind of interesting insights will come out
Pema Pera: so please keep asking!
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Qt :)
Pema Pera: Hi Qt
Qt Core: hi all
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Qt
Stim Morane: Hi QT
Bertram Jacobus: would be wonderful ! :-)
Hana Furlough: hi qt~
Bertram Jacobus: i had already in mind : long answers would be very fine, too ;-)
Bertram Jacobus: and ... how long was that stim ?
Stim Morane: 2 weeks
Stim Morane: It's hard to describe the events I do because they are quite different for different people
Bertram Jacobus: whaow ! that´s already a serious time for a retreat (!) ... :-)
Bertram Jacobus: and i think, also the own impressions always are interesting, because authentic ...
Pema Pera: Hi Fefonz!
Bertram Jacobus: which group is that who leads the retreats ?
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Fefonz
Bertram Jacobus: hello fefonz ... :-)
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Fefonz :)
Stim Morane: Hi Feforz
Stim Morane: Fefonz
Qt Core: hi fefonz
Hana Furlough: hi fefonz
Fefonz Quan: Hello Stim, Scath, Gaya, Pema, Bert, Qt and Hana
Fefonz Quan: and Hi eliza!
Bertram Jacobus: hello eliza ... :-)
Hana Furlough: hi eliza!
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello eliza
Pema Pera: Hi Eliza!
Stim Morane: Hi Eliza
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal: WB Stim, and nice to see you at a 1PM Pema :)
Bertram Jacobus: hello eos ... :-)
Fefonz Quan: Hey Eos
Stim Morane: thanks
Hana Furlough: hi there eos!
Stim Morane: Hi Eos
Pema Pera: Thanks, Eliza!
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Scath, Hana, Gaya, Bertram, QT, Fef, Eos! :)
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello eos
Eos Amaterasu: Hi all - wow, what a group ( i can only stay briefly)
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Eos :)
--BELL--
Pema Pera: As to <[13:12] Bertram Jacobus: which group is that who leads the retreats ?> the answer, Bert, is that Stim leads the retreats and the group is his group of students in RL, where he is Steven Tainer
Bertram Jacobus: :-)oh i see. and is it in any traditional line ?
Stim Morane: oh, sorry, I didn't see that question
Bertram Jacobus: np at all
Bertram Jacobus: hello sophias ... :-)
Pema Pera: Hi SophiaSharon!
Stim Morane: Again, I can't really characterize my emphasis because it varies depending on the participant's needs
Hana Furlough: hi there sophias
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Sophiasharon
Eliza Madrigal: Hi SophiaSharon :)
Stim Morane: Hi SophiaSharon
SophiaSharon Larnia: HI all am sorry I'm late (sits quietly)
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello SophiaSharon :)
Bertram Jacobus: "but" - which form of buddhism is it in your retreats stim ? if i may ask further on (?) zen, tibetan, anything else ?
Fefonz Quan: Hi SophiaSharon
Bertram Jacobus: (sorry : i´m always very interested in such topics) ...
Fefonz Quan: the empty form? :)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Stim Morane: Ch'an (Zen), Indian Buddhism, other traditions
Bertram Jacobus: ah. ty :-)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: brb
Bertram Jacobus: at the moment i make again some experiences in my life as if i could influence nothing really - does anybody knows such feelings ? and if yes, how to cope with that ?
Gaya Ethaniel: Sorry to interrupt, please ignore me relogging. Lagging badly tonight ...
Stim Morane: what would be an example, Bertram?
Bertram Jacobus: that i try and try to prevent that starnge companies withdraw money from my bank account and even the bank employees don´t react in a proper way. same with the callcenters, again and again, all goes badly. not normal.
Bertram Jacobus: hello sophia ... :-)
Hana Furlough: hi sophia
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Sophia
Pema Pera: Hi Sophia!
SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi sophia :)
Bertram Jacobus: and that is only ONE example
Fefonz Quan: Hi Sophia, nice wings :)
Stim Morane: Yes, I understand now. The modern world is plagued by such things.
Bertram Jacobus: hello shyama ... :-)
sophia Placebo: ^^ ty
SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Shyama
Stim Morane: Hi Shyama
Fefonz Quan: Hi shyama
Shyama Sheryffe: hello everyone
Bertram Jacobus: is it a kind of decadence and nothing to be done ?
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello sophia and Shyama :)
Hana Furlough: hello shyama
Stim Morane: brb
Pema Pera: Hi Shyama
Fefonz Quan: Do you mean only influence in cases where other people are involved?
Fefonz Quan: (for Bert)
--BELL--
Bertram Jacobus: nice distinction fef. am not sure. would spontaneous say : no, not only with persons ... but i don´t know. why do you ask ? :-)
Fefonz Quan: cause for me i would less expect to have onfluence (not to say control) when others are invlolved.
Fefonz Quan: influence*
Bertram Jacobus: oh i see okay
Fefonz Quan: but if it goes also to more self-oriented issues, that sounds like a different game to me
Bertram Jacobus: self orientated ? that means to me or to the issues ? :-)
Eliza Madrigal: Gaya, I'd tie you down if I could :)
Eliza Madrigal: Sorry you are having trouble :(
Fefonz Quan: didn't manage to find the right term, meant for situations that are more seperated from other,
Eos Amaterasu departs quietly, wishes everone well
Bertram Jacobus: bye eos ... :-)
sophia Placebo: bye eos
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Eos :)
Hana Furlough: bye eos
Stim Morane: bye Eos
Shyama Sheryffe: bye eos
Fefonz Quan: (like, i can't influence my thoughts/feelings etc.)
Fefonz Quan: Bye Eos
Bertram Jacobus: oh yes. thats very clear now fef ty
Gaya Ethaniel: Bye Eos.
Bertram Jacobus: but what do you all think ? : do we have influence or is it only illusion ?
Fefonz Quan: guess that would require to talk about what 'we' has that influence
Gaya Ethaniel: I'm sorry but it's one of those sessions. Nice seeing you again Stim and Pema. Have a good day/night everyone :)
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Gaya
sophia Placebo: bye gaya
Fefonz Quan: nite Gaya!
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Gaya
Pema Pera: bye Gaya!
Stim Morane: Bye Gaya
Shyama Sheryffe: bye gaya
Hana Furlough: i should go too
Bertram Jacobus: wish you more luck with the technique very soon gaya !
Hana Furlough: bye everyone~
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Hana :)
Fefonz Quan: bye Hana
Shyama Sheryffe: bye hana
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Hana
sophia Placebo: bye hana
Bertram Jacobus: then bye hana too
Eliza Madrigal: Bert, it seems a little too large a scope to ask if we have influence at all? I know in my own life there are issues I feel are easily touched, right next to things that haven't moved in decades. :)
Stim Morane: By the standards normally applied to this case, yes, we can often have great influence, or some, or none, depending on the circumstances.
Fefonz Quan nods
Fefonz Quan: sometimes we have a lot of influence, though not the planned/desired one
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Stim Morane: :)
Bertram Jacobus: it´s a very basic question or may be eliza ...
Eliza Madrigal: Yes, it may be :)
Stim Morane: for example, we are trying to respond to your question, so you have influence over us.
Bertram Jacobus: but is that perhaps only a relative, deceptive impression ?
Stim Morane: how would you decide?
Bertram Jacobus: if i knew i wouldn´t ask i guess ? may be i´m confused ... (?)
Stim Morane: well, it's a time-honored question you're asking.
Stim Morane: But one that has resisted analysis. Meanwhile, the world goes on, and we do our best.
--BELL--
Fefonz Quan: DOn't you feel, on a very daily level, that if you learn more for a test it will increase the chance to pass it?
Bertram Jacobus: sure i do
Eliza Madrigal: Our best surely counts for something ? :))
Bertram Jacobus: you are right
Bertram Jacobus: fef
Fefonz Quan: So it is another level that bothers you?
Bertram Jacobus: yes. my old question : suffer seems not to end. (sry pema - you said, no logic would help here) - but my experience seems to show that. it´s cruel and only lies can cover this impression at the moment for me (that suffer never ends)
Fefonz Quan: maybe the cause to suffer goes on...
Shyama Sheryffe: as long as we cling...
Fefonz Quan: cling on :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bertram Jacobus: yes. it is said and seems to be plausible that that runs already since beginningless times. so it has to run firther on to endless times, too, logically
Bertram Jacobus: further*
Fefonz Quan: me wasn't aiming for that...
sophia Placebo: going out of the womb is painfull process for baby but then it is his birth process
Fefonz Quan: claims about beginningles times are quite hard to respond to for my opinion
Eliza Madrigal: yes, isn't it more helpful to ask how to respond to suffering, in some ways?
Bertram Jacobus: nice reactions ...
Fefonz Quan nods, and look at relevant present suffering and it's reason,
Fefonz Quan: otherwise it is like talking about world peace. not doing much good...
Fefonz Quan: and btw - if you look around you ca also find joyful things happening, not just suffering
Fefonz Quan: can*
Bertram Jacobus: switch to the absolute may help ... ;-)
Shyama Sheryffe: yes, shouldnt we ask first, why do i suffer ?
Fefonz Quan: i am not sure about that Bert.
Fefonz Quan: (not that i now how to do that switch really, not philosophically)
Pema Pera: good question, Shyama!
Qt Core: need to go, bye all
Fefonz Quan: Bye Qt
sophia Placebo: bye qt
Bertram Jacobus: and i am quite convinced, that the relative always is accompanied by pain, but sometimes only very subtile ...
Shyama Sheryffe: bye qt
Bertram Jacobus: bye qt
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Qt
Stim Morane: bye qt
Fefonz Quan: oain and suffering are not the same.
Fefonz Quan: pain*
Eliza Madrigal: I see what you are saying Bert. It is like the forgiveness issue. That the facts may be that someone commited a wrong, but the truth is the person isn't just the wrong they commited.
sophia Placebo: can you say more about relative and pain bert
--BELL--
Bertram Jacobus: yes sophia : i feel the three forms of pain which are explained in buddhism for example : the apperently suffering, the suffering because of impernanance and the most subtile, the suffering of the relative in general. i think that is because of the seperation
Scathach Rhiadra: I must go, good night all, nice to see you Stim and Pema
Fefonz Quan: nite Scath
Stim Morane: Bye Scathach
Eliza Madrigal: Night Scath :)
sophia Placebo: bye scath
Pema Pera: yes, time for me too, bye everybody!
Bertram Jacobus: bye scathatch ...
Fefonz Quan: nite Pema
Stim Morane: Bye Pema
Shyama Sheryffe: nite scath
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Pema
Bertram Jacobus: bye pema ...
sophia Placebo: bye pema
Pema Pera: good seeing you again, Bert, and nice meeting you Shyama
Shyama Sheryffe: and pema
Bertram Jacobus: ty ...
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye all :) I must leave also, take care all!!!
Eliza Madrigal: Me too... dd and friends to take out for her birthday :) Thank all :)
Fefonz Quan: bye sophiasharon
Bertram Jacobus: bye sophais - same for you
sophia Placebo: bye sophia
Fefonz Quan: and Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: :) Bfn
sophia Placebo: bye eliza
Stim Morane: same here ... bye, everyone!
Bertram Jacobus: bye eliza have a nice day
Bertram Jacobus: bye stim
sophia Placebo: bye stim
Fefonz Quan: Bye Stim
Shyama Sheryffe: good time to go to bed, nite everyone
Fefonz Quan: nite
sophia Placebo: nite shayam
Bertram Jacobus: good nite shyama
sophia Placebo: i see bert , i dont have a clear idea about pain and buddism so ...
sophia Placebo: or sufffering
Bertram Jacobus: may i stop at this point ? sorry if i interrupt to much - but ... nap attack here ...
sophia Placebo: :) me too time to sleep
Fefonz Quan: ok, sleep well Bert, Sophia
Bertram Jacobus: fine - yes - have a good time please and ty
Fefonz Quan: have a good night Sophia
sophia Placebo: bye fef :)