2009.08.25 13:00 - Minimalistic Thoughts Only-Strictly No Habits

    The Guardian for this meeting was Mickorod Renard.

    Yakuzza Lethecus: i constantly think about the issue how much material stuff i ,,want" to own
    Mickorod Renard: I have come to the idea that we bring too many complications on ourselves,,well I did anyway
    Bertram Jacobus: and janis jopling sang once "freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose" ... i like that very much ...
    Yakuzza Lethecus: but i guess i will buy a flat as soon as i have the money just not to pay monthly
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hehe :)
    Mickorod Renard: yes, both good
    Mickorod Renard: but minimalist is nice
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i think the most important thing for me is the ability to think about my own attitudes and the ability to verbalize thoughts
    Yakuzza Lethecus: for example second life is just about comunication and learning how to even express thoughts because for example at pab many people are opening up
    Yakuzza Lethecus: communication
    Mickorod Renard: I had lots of time to think,,which I did,,but it was spoilt with so many responsibilities to worry about
    Yakuzza Lethecus: it´s even pretty hard to find that in real life
    Hana Furlough: but do we always need to think?
    Hana Furlough: maybe we should spend some time not thinking?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: it depends, for me feeling is thinking
    Yakuzza Lethecus: we just don´t have words :)
    Bertram Jacobus: why can´t feeling be feeling and thinking be thinking yaku ? ;-)
    Mickorod Renard: well,,my Dad used to say,,'Micko,,you think too much'
    Yakuzza Lethecus: when i think i feel that i am often not thinking but stuck in thoughts i already had
    Yakuzza Lethecus: when i am feeling and relaxed i often come to new ideas and have even been more concentrated
    Mickorod Renard: If I am busy with my hands I think less, so its good for me to stay busy
    Mickorod Renard: yes yaku, I have heard it said that the subconcious is very good at thinking by itself
    Mickorod Renard: maybe thats where Hana's idea works well,,dont think conciously,,just enjoy and the subcon will work out the probs
    Wol Euler grins. Wu wei again.
    Hana Furlough: yes!
    Bertram Jacobus: wu wei is soooo nice !
    Hana Furlough: the challenge being to truly live in a way that is wuwei
    Wol Euler nods and smiles
    Mickorod Renard: does anyone know anything about white noise?
    Bertram Jacobus: i know the group. musicans.
    Wol Euler: depends what you want to know about it :)
    Hana Furlough: like a white noise machine?
    Mickorod Renard: well, i was thinking ,,that that is what all my thoughts seem to feel like,,a huge annoying noise
    Mickorod Renard: I think its used in torture
    Wol Euler: or in treating sleep problems
    Hana Furlough: yeah my friedn had one of those to block out street noise
    Bertram Jacobus: but it is teached that thoughts are nothing else then spirit. an expression, a kind of part of it.
    Mickorod Renard: so should we suppress thought??
    Wol Euler: god no.
    Bertram Jacobus: it is teached that definitly not
    Hana Furlough: i don't think we need to
    Sluggy Easterwood: hi peoipple
    Yakuzza Lethecus: take a pillow
    Mickorod Renard: come join us if you like sluggy
    Mickorod Renard: have you been here before?
    Hana Furlough: welcome!
    Sluggy Easterwood: no
    Yakuzza Lethecus: and consider big brother is logging you and putting everything you say on his website :)
    Mickorod Renard: I will give u a notecard
    Sluggy Easterwood: ive been to philsoophuy house
    Bertram Jacobus: and a warm welcome from me to you too sluggy :-)
    Mickorod Renard: yea, i go to Philo house sometimes
    Mickorod Renard: we are into all sorts of open discussion here,,but we try and keep it friendly and non abussive
    Wol Euler: and actually we do record and publish these conversations. May we have your permission to publish your name and comments?
    Sluggy Easterwood: philosophy house is usually friendly but sometimes aggresie ,i dont mind
    Sluggy Easterwood: i suppose you mean sl name?
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. sl name
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,these chats here are posted on a wiki,,so if you dont want anything that you say to become public please say
    Bertram Jacobus: it´s an interesting project ...
    Mickorod Renard: whats that Bert?
    Bertram Jacobus: to study life in this way ...
    Bertram Jacobus: with the means of pab
    Sluggy Easterwood: i could become famous ... well i dont mind my sl name being used but i like to seperate sl from rl usually
    Wol Euler: sure, most people do :)
    Wol Euler: thanks for agreeing :)
    Bertram Jacobus: (may be i should have said "instruments" and not "means" - may be was a total wrong word) -
    Mickorod Renard: we were discussing thoughts,,and whether its good to have less
    Zen Arado: maybe to give less importance to them
    Mickorod Renard: that sounds nice
    Bertram Jacobus: and then i may be one of the exceptions : for me, sl and fl (first life) - coinside quite often ...
    Hana Furlough: yeah see them for what they are and keep going
    Zen Arado: use them as tools not masters
    Zen Arado: not easy though
    arabella Ella: but ... and hope I am not off track ... what about thoughts about external issues that need decision making but which are terribly complex?
    Mickorod Renard: its funny, i sometimes wonder ,,like in Samsara,,where u have to recognise that what u have done may impose on the present or future,,that is in some way control
    Zen Arado: oh yes...functional thought is important
    Hana Furlough: good point mick
    Mickorod Renard: yet control is frwned upon
    Hana Furlough: but if we didn't have this control, then we couldn't rely on ourselves for liberation
    Wol Euler: tre
    Wol Euler: +u
    arabella Ella: :)
    Zen Arado: contro is probably an illusion though?
    Mickorod Renard: yes Zen?
    Zen Arado: we only think we control our lives
    Mickorod Renard: ahh,,yes
    Wol Euler raises an eyebrow.
    Hana Furlough: this is true
    Zen Arado: every day brings surprises
    Hana Furlough: or koans
    Mickorod Renard: it sort of goes around in circles though
    Zen Arado: you sure ?
    Zen Arado: :)
    Bertram Jacobus: i think the circles are at least a helix
    Mickorod Renard: i had a debate where someone said that they had no control over life so they would do what they wanted,,good or bad
    Zen Arado: we tend to solidify it
    Zen Arado: put artificial patterns on it
    Hana Furlough: or ignore other patterns that run contrary to our preconceived notions
    arabella Ella: i think the only valid context for control is in a task work related situation which requires concrete results ...
    Zen Arado: but it is unpredictable I think
    Zen Arado: yes Hana
    arabella Ella: in our personal lives it is different and we often try to control others through power play
    Hana Furlough: it is beyond predictable and unpredictable
    Mickorod Renard: sorry, I meant the discussion in circles,,like do we control or not?
    Zen Arado: sometimes we have to try to control I guess
    Hana Furlough: or just be in harmony
    Hana Furlough: with Being
    Zen Arado: yes but we have to make plans
    Mickorod Renard: I am working on just doing the right thing,,then hoping that thats enough
    arabella Ella: however in our personal lives we often think that by controlling others thoughts or actions then it will provide a better outcome for ourselves but i think that is a mistaken tack to take and we need to give others greater autonomy and responsibility
    Hana Furlough: give people the benefit of the doubt
    Zen Arado: good point Ara
    Zen Arado: ppl know they are being controlled too and rebel often
    arabella Ella: exactly
    Zen Arado: manipulation
    arabella Ella: i dont think any of us like to have either our thoughts or actions controlled by others
    Hana Furlough: i agree
    Mickorod Renard: but as you have poinrted out before Ara,,others have control over us, in ways,,and as such we may need to steer this
    Hana Furlough: we start to rebel when that happens
    arabella Ella: yes
    Wol Euler: well, outside of specific play contexts :)
    arabella Ella: :)
    Zen Arado: gets like a game
    Zen Arado: life I mean
    Mickorod Renard: like when others do actions that effect us
    Hana Furlough: where are the instructions, zen?
    Mickorod Renard: no man is an island
    Zen Arado: aren't any :)
    arabella Ella: ehrm ... Mick ... no human is an island
    arabella Ella: gender :)
    Zen Arado: :)
    Hana Furlough: or don't need any
    Mickorod Renard: grin,,sorry ladies
    Zen Arado: hard to stop trying to control others though
    Zen Arado: we want them to behave the way we want
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    arabella Ella: but ... if we dont wish them to control us, then why should we wish to control them?
    Zen Arado: but they don't sigh :(
    Hana Furlough: yeah that's the hardest part of life i think
    Mickorod Renard: he he , maybe we just want to control the effect of their actions
    Zen Arado: I knbow Ara but we still do I think
    arabella Ella: yes
    Hana Furlough: so what do we do with this feeling of wanting to control people/outcomes?
    Zen Arado: guess we have to admit it first
    arabella Ella: i personally think it is difficult to generalise control to all possible situations
    Mickorod Renard: become a hermit
    Zen Arado: notice ourselves doing it
    Zen Arado: :)
    arabella Ella: control is ok in some situations i guess ... work related, under age kids and as Wol said ... amongst consenting adults :)
    Hana Furlough: but is it enought to notice?
    Mickorod Renard: I think this is why some decide to be monks
    Hana Furlough: should we water it with a little love too?
    Mickorod Renard: or nuns
    Zen Arado: no but we often dont do that I think
    arabella Ella: :)
    Zen Arado: until somebody tells us
    arabella Ella: what scares me about control is how it often invades long term relationships in a very nasty way ... ends up being subtle bullying or power play which is not desirable
    Zen Arado: you would try to control monastery then :)
    Zen Arado: yes Ara - my very thoughts
    arabella Ella: it is said that ppl take their own personal attributes into monastries too
    Mickorod Renard: yea,,controlling nuns is a lifelong fantacy
    Zen Arado: :)
    Wol Euler: :-PPPPP
    Zen Arado: make them lose their habits :)
    arabella Ella: you like their habits Mick?
    Zen Arado: sorry
    arabella Ella: :)
    Wol Euler makes a note to wear her habit next time
    Mickorod Renard: grin,,just some humour
    Hana Furlough: lol
    Mickorod Renard: ;-)
    arabella Ella: the Irish nuns who tried to educate me had lots of weird habits
    Zen Arado: yes ?
    Mickorod Renard: best keep them private Ara?
    arabella Ella: :)
    Mickorod Renard: dont forget the wiki
    arabella Ella: enough said on that topic
    arabella Ella: best delete that bit mick :)
    Mickorod Renard: he he
    arabella Ella: the way i see it ...
    Mickorod Renard: ahh,,yes I am in control as the guardian
    arabella Ella: in order to avoid too much control getting into long term relationships ...
    arabella Ella: one needs to create lots of space
    arabella Ella: and freedom
    arabella Ella: and that is very difficult for most
    Wol Euler nos
    Wol Euler: *nods
    arabella Ella: an example that comes to mind is
    Wol Euler: and knows
    Zen Arado: for oneself :)
    Wol Euler: damn typos.
    arabella Ella: what was written about Jean Paul Sartre and Simone du Beauvoir
    Mickorod Renard: yea,,I cud buy a nice batchellor pad
    Zen Arado: ah yes the open relationship
    Zen Arado: yes Ara?
    arabella Ella: but too much space can create a situation where one person creates embarassement for the other ... or humiliation which may not be desired
    Mickorod Renard: ok,,a batchellor pad next door to wife
    arabella Ella: yes Sartre and du Beauvoir had an open relationship
    arabella Ella: or so it is said
    Zen Arado: is there such a thing?
    arabella Ella: not easy either
    Wol Euler: he certainly had one that was open, was hers too?
    Zen Arado: I think they had problems though
    arabella Ella nods
    arabella Ella: an open relationship may tend to end up one sided to the detriment of the other party
    Mickorod Renard: wasnt that comas chap involved too?
    Hana Furlough: maybe it's different for different people
    Wol Euler: Albert Camus? not that I knew.
    Mickorod Renard: thats him
    arabella Ella: I dont think so
    Mickorod Renard: ohh
    Zen Arado: he was an outsider :)
    arabella Ella: he was brought up in Algeria under the French and I expect they were quite repressed and not too open in those days
    Zen Arado: big problem is jealousy I think
    arabella Ella: altho in those days they would just sweep things under the carpet
    arabella Ella: polyamorous is another alternative :)
    arabella Ella: but again difficult
    Mickorod Renard: whats that Ara?
    arabella Ella: complicated relationships which are open
    Hana Furlough: what about simply renewing the freedom in our minds?
    arabella Ella: i once went to a discussion on SL on polyamorous relationships, some claimed they could work
    Zen Arado: are you all ok with your lover making love to someone else?
    Mickorod Renard: I have a sneaky idea that my mind is too conditioned now
    arabella Ella: hey Zen for those of us in Europe ...
    arabella Ella: you got to distinguish
    arabella Ella: between lover and long term partner or wife or hubby
    arabella Ella: see
    Wol Euler: I'd have some trouble with that, Zen
    Zen Arado: well.....same question
    Zen Arado: but some dont get jealous?
    Wol Euler: or aren't as possessive, which may not be the same thing
    Mickorod Renard: not really,,and you have to think health issues nowadays too
    Zen Arado: true
    Zen Arado: jealousy stems from possessiveness I guess
    Mickorod Renard: I am jelous,,in some ways
    arabella Ella: it is likely to be easier to have an open relationship with a lover rather than with a long term partner
    Zen Arado: but having a partner is by nature a possessive act?
    arabella Ella: yes i think so
    Hana Furlough: is a duet a possessive act?
    Mickorod Renard: but then a partnership is by mutual concent
    Mickorod Renard: and contractual
    Zen Arado: is some jealousy justified?
    Hana Furlough: of course
    Mickorod Renard: well,,I think to live in any relationship,,comunal or personal there are ground rules
    Zen Arado: Jealousy *
    Hana Furlough: neither negative nor positive
    Mickorod Renard: ground rules is a form of control
    Zen Arado: but it is an undesirable trait
    arabella Ella: i think that if you really love someone then you are likely bound to be both jealous and possessive to some extent
    Wol Euler: I disagree, Mick, if they are mutually formed and agreed to they are not "control".
    Mickorod Renard: we are creatures of desire,,therefore temptation will always be a beconning
    Zen Arado: jealousy is a form of anger
    arabella Ella: why Zen?
    Zen Arado: we want something someone else is getting
    Mickorod Renard: I see your point Wol
    arabella Ella: but it is more dissonance Zen rather than anger
    Zen Arado: and get angry about not having it
    arabella Ella: what i hate about thoughts are those which result from deceit on the part of others, mud slinging and attempts to ruin reputation and integrity
    Zen Arado: it certainly can simmer like anger
    arabella Ella: only if obsessive
    Mickorod Renard: open aggreement is great until only one wants to break off
    Wol Euler nods
    Zen Arado: jealousy is obsessive I think
    arabella Ella: not always
    Zen Arado: just its nature?
    Zen Arado: ok you can have pangs
    arabella Ella: :)
    Mickorod Renard: I think jealous is often used out of context by whoever

    wants to use it to control someone
    Zen Arado: by telling them you are jealous?
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    Zen Arado: ah
    Mickorod Renard: well, i think I have been victim of that
    Zen Arado: how do you overcome jealousy?
    Hana Furlough: open your arms and accept it with love
    Zen Arado: not easy !
    arabella Ella: by keeping yourself busy elsewhere to take your mind off your jealousy?
    Mickorod Renard: become a monk or nun?
    Zen Arado: distraction?
    arabella Ella: maybe
    Zen Arado: I mditate with it
    Zen Arado: watch the churning thoughts
    Zen Arado: usually wears it out
    arabella Ella nods
    Zen Arado: but takes time and is painful
    arabella Ella: yes
    Mickorod Renard: I guess its give in,,become humble and grateful for what life gives
    Zen Arado: maybe better to try not to get into possible jealousy creating scenarios
    Mickorod Renard: then get your own back
    Zen Arado: :)
    arabella Ella: but often jealousy arises as a result of actions of others
    arabella Ella: which we cannot control
    Zen Arado: and unexpected actions
    arabella Ella: ye
    Mickorod Renard: we can try
    arabella Ella: yes
    arabella Ella: some people can be very cruel in their ways and arouse jealousy without even realising the damage they cause to others
    Mickorod Renard: I guess its something that effects the human race
    Zen Arado: yes
    Zen Arado: lack of empathy
    arabella Ella: and lack of compassion ... related to empathy
    Mickorod Renard: whilst there are always going to be people who are happy to take advantage,,I guess we have to be on our guard
    Mickorod Renard: Zen,,Are you the Zen I knew before?
    Zen Arado: how do I know?
    arabella Ella: yes you are
    Mickorod Renard: grin
    Wol Euler: hheheheheh
    Wol Euler: fair answer, but also a dead giveaway
    arabella Ella: you used to come to the philo classes didnt you?
    Zen Arado: yes
    Mickorod Renard: I havnt seen u for ages

    Zen Arado: those classes are on nights that dont suit me
    Zen Arado: I go to RL events Tues Thurs

    Zen Arado: and to a Buddhist roup in SL Sundays

    Zen Arado: which is a pity
    Zen Arado: cos I like Herman
    Mickorod Renard: me too
    Mickorod Renard: cant do everything
    Zen Arado: sorry I typed through bell
    arabella Ella: :)
    Mickorod Renard: no probs
    Mickorod Renard: I recall there was an issue over the access to the rl zen building
    Zen Arado: ah yes
    Zen Arado: still is :)
    Mickorod Renard: lol
    Zen Arado: going to a zen retreat this weekend
    Zen Arado: 3 day only
    arabella Ella: cool
    Mickorod Renard: nice,,wherabouts?
    arabella Ella: in the USA?
    Zen Arado: no in N.Ireland
    Mickorod Renard: nice
    arabella Ella: interesting
    Zen Arado: Place called Benburb
    Zen Arado: an old Servite priory
    Mickorod Renard: u r midlands yes?
    Zen Arado: no I live in Carrickfergus
    Mickorod Renard: ahhh
    Zen Arado: 10 miles north of Belfast
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    arabella Ella: oh i was about to ask which country would that be :)
    Zen Arado: I do 3 retreats a year
    Zen Arado: usually
    Wol Euler: nice

    Zen Arado: it is hard to meditate all day
    arabella Ella: no speaking at all?
    Zen Arado: no
    arabella Ella: ouch
    Zen Arado: noly functional speech
    arabella Ella: ah
    Zen Arado: like pass me the salt ...
    Mickorod Renard: I could have done that years ago,,but I have become a chatterbox lately
    arabella Ella: it must be so difficult
    Zen Arado: talking would make your mind work too much
    arabella Ella: i dunno
    Mickorod Renard: how do you mean Zen?
    Zen Arado: you kinda get into it though
    arabella Ella: sometimes talking can take your mind off your thoughts too
    Zen Arado: usually stimulates though
    Mickorod Renard: thats a woman quality ASra
    Zen Arado: :)
    arabella Ella: what do you find are the greatest benefits after a retreat Zen?
    Zen Arado: you feel calmer
    arabella Ella: is it then difficult to re-adjust to RL?
    Zen Arado: but you shouldn't do it for benefits
    arabella Ella: ah
    Zen Arado: after a long retreat they say it can be
    Zen Arado: like 3 months
    arabella Ella: yes
    Zen Arado: it is removing your usual distractions
    arabella Ella: but if it is not done for benefits ... i mean ... self cleansing, thought purification ... are they not considered benefits?
    Wol Euler: wow.
    Mickorod Renard: I may need something like that
    Zen Arado: so you can see what is going o in your mind more clearly
    arabella Ella: ah
    Zen Arado: yes Ara but it is not the right attitude at the end
    arabella Ella: because ... what i mean is ... people go with some sort of motivation
    Zen Arado: that is the way we start though
    arabella Ella: yes
    Zen Arado: you can't know in advance what will happen
    arabella Ella: true
    Zen Arado: it is not conceptual
    arabella Ella: ok
    Zen Arado: it is experience
    arabella Ella: yes
    arabella Ella: the PaB retreat must be on at the moment
    Wol Euler nods
    arabella Ella: i wonder how they are getting along
    Zen Arado: oh?
    Wol Euler smiles.
    Zen Arado: in SL?
    arabella Ella: no in RL in Calif
    Zen Arado: ah
    arabella Ella: they were expected to be around 10 to 12 people
    arabella Ella: all of who attend PaB here
    Zen Arado: where do they go?
    arabella Ella: ehrm ... cant remember the name of the location ... can you Wol?
    arabella Ella: i think it is close to SF
    Wol Euler: mmmmmm, no.
    Mickorod Renard: I bet its on the wiki
    arabella Ella: yes
    Wol Euler: or in any one of three dozen e-mails :)
    Zen Arado: SF Zen Center?
    Mickorod Renard: no
    arabella Ella: no it is outside SF somewhere in the hills and woods
    Mickorod Renard: but its in the hills some way up from SF
    Zen Arado: Tassajara?
    Mickorod Renard: lol,,I cant remem
    arabella Ella: no idea
    Wol Euler: doesn't sound quite right, trying to remember - nd to find in e_mail
    arabella Ella: it is somewhere with log cabins
    arabella Ella: and lovely wooded areas
    arabella Ella: seems very peaceful venue
    arabella Ella: just right for a retreat
    Zen Arado: Tassajara had bad fires last year
    arabella Ella: oh
    arabella Ella: if i remember correctly i think it is a couple of hours drive out of SF but no idea which direction
    Zen Arado: ok doesn't matter
    Zen Arado: just curious
    arabella Ella: yes
    arabella Ella: we will hopefully hear all about it once they are back
    Zen Arado: did Moon Fargis go?
    arabella Ella: i did not get the list of participants
    Zen Arado: ok just wondered
    arabella Ella: but two days ago here Isadora and Maxine said they were going
    arabella Ella: and Tarmel from Oz and Fefonz too
    arabella Ella: Pema of course
    Wol Euler: got it! Pema Osel Ling http://www.polmountainretreat.com/
    Wol Euler: near santa cruz
    arabella Ella: brilliant Wol
    Wol Euler smiles modestly. It's a Macintosh, it Just Works.
    Mickorod Renard: well done wol,,i was searching too
    Zen Arado: ah ty interesting
    Zen Arado: not a zen place
    Zen Arado: Tibetan
    Wol Euler: not as such, no. buddhist though. I think
    Wol Euler: yes
    Mickorod Renard: I think there was some free space but the flights were expensive from uk
    arabella Ella: well the only european there will be Pema
    Wol Euler: I remember there was some debate about whether Storm could be accomodated there, since he belongs to some faction anathematized by the Dalai Lama
    arabella Ella: i think all the others are from the USA, plus Fef and Tarmel
    Zen Arado: a teacher from SFZC comes here twice a year to lead retreats
    arabella Ella: oh yes Wol i remember that
    Mickorod Renard: yes Wol,,but they did make arrangements for Storm
    Mickorod Renard: sounds good Zen
    arabella Ella: ok so must be Pema, Storm, Fef, Tarmel, Maxine, Isadora ... not sure who else
    Zen Arado: it would be good to have a full time zen priest though
    arabella Ella: :)
    arabella Ella: it would also be interesting to have the next PaB retreat in Europe
    Wol Euler: definitely!
    arabella Ella: hey this is lovely and symmetric now Wol :)
    Mickorod Renard: that was nice to see him again
    Wol Euler: :)
    Mickorod Renard: well,,that was a good long session again
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    arabella Ella: Wol ... is it already cold where you are?
    arabella Ella: in RL
    Mickorod Renard: I can see I will have lots to do on the log
    Wol Euler: no, alas. high twenties and very humid.
    Wol Euler: I hate summer.
    arabella Ella: oh so very warm by your standards
    arabella Ella: here it is yet another heatwave
    arabella Ella: takes away all energy
    Wol Euler: well, it was ten degrees warmer last week. that was awful
    arabella Ella: wow incredible
    arabella Ella: and i hear it is warm in your area too Mick?
    Wol Euler: far too hot for me.
    arabella Ella: :)
    Mickorod Renard: I just went south france 4 a few days,,mosquitoes got me
    arabella Ella: i dont mind being in the sea which is 25 degrees
    Wol Euler: nice.
    arabella Ella: yes
    Mickorod Renard: couldnt sleep
    arabella Ella: but driving around in the midday heat is terrible
    Mickorod Renard: yea
    arabella Ella: it is still considered to be middle of summer here
    Mickorod Renard: are u not using m bike Ara?
    arabella Ella: we still have two months of heat to go
    arabella Ella: i use bike most days but got to use car every two days or so
    arabella Ella: battery
    Mickorod Renard: ahhh
    arabella Ella: but even on bike it is so hot with sun scorching me
    arabella Ella: :)
    arabella Ella: bike helps me to maintain my tan
    Mickorod Renard: well,,I guess I had best be going too
    Wol Euler smiles.
    Wol Euler: bye mick, take care, sleep well.
    Mickorod Renard: bye,,and you Wol,,see u soon
    Wol Euler: tomorrow possibly :)

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