2009.08.30 19:00 - Void Nature

The Guardian for this meeting was stevenaia Michinaga. The comments are by stevenaia Michinaga.

stevenaia Michinaga: hello bene
Benedizione Vita: whats up steve
Benedizione Vita: ah, my old friend doug sosa
Benedizione Vita: long time no see
stevenaia Michinaga: just got here
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: hi doug
doug Sosa: hi..? gettin old, did you go by different name?
--BELL--
doug Sosa: (to vita).
Benedizione Vita: I once wrote a newspaper about our qwaq activities, but I'll remain anonymous in SL ;^)
doug Sosa: ah, so, well, maybe I am younger than I thought after all.
stevenaia Michinaga: going to be an interesting week listening to everyones description of the retreat last week
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Pila
Benedizione Vita: who conducted the retreat?
Benedizione Vita: stim?
doug Sosa: so vita, do email me and catch up.
stevenaia Michinaga: doug was there.. did anyone conduct it?
doug Sosa: well, Piet sort of, but very cooperative.
Benedizione Vita: would be my pleasure, sosa
Benedizione Vita: ah, so pema was there
Benedizione Vita: where was it held in RL?
Pila Mulligan: hi folks
Benedizione Vita: I haven't seen pema in a while
Benedizione Vita: hi pila
doug Sosa: piet set frameworks, we then reflected on them for ten, twenty minutes or so, then talked about our experience for half hour, hour..
Benedizione Vita: how many avatars?
doug Sosa: well, in the meeting None! but 12 people together.
doug Sosa: people left their SL's home.
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: Hello Paradise
doug Sosa: ah paradise was a missing ingredient. :)
Pila Mulligan: hi Paradise
Benedizione Vita: hello paradise
Paradise Tennant: hello everyone :))
Paradise Tennant: :)
Paradise Tennant: so doug you are home and feeling refreshed :)
stevenaia Michinaga: curious what was to happen next?
doug Sosa: well, it was pretty relaxed, but lot of psychic input made it tiring. There was a beautiful pool there so i went in about five times a day!!
Paradise Tennant: nice !
stevenaia Michinaga: post retreat, other than the "book"
doug Sosa: next?
doug Sosa: ah, just reports byt the participants, nothing formal.
Benedizione Vita: was anyone else I would know there, sosa?
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, they are very interesting, so many perspectives and presentation styles so far
doug Sosa: steve, i think that is all (different steve)..
Benedizione Vita: stem?
doug Sosa: yessiree.
Benedizione Vita: interesting
Benedizione Vita: I saw him earlier today
Benedizione Vita: does anything of your experience strike you at the moment as sharable, doug?
Benedizione Vita: of the retreat, I mean
doug Sosa: well, the men were all 40 lbs lighter.
Benedizione Vita: fasting?
doug Sosa: i mean than here in SL.
Benedizione Vita: hahahaha
doug Sosa: i mean than in RL.. what do I mean?
Benedizione Vita: SL adds some extra height and muscles, I suppose?
doug Sosa: seems so.
Benedizione Vita: imagine that
stevenaia Michinaga: ya think
Benedizione Vita: had you met everyone in RL before the retreat, doug?
doug Sosa: No, only two.
Benedizione Vita: incidentally I just realized I have never met you in RL haha
Benedizione Vita: how was that, to encounter the RL versions of your SL collaborators?
doug Sosa: you mean yu don' look like qwaq avatar? So I've got to think of all three of you.
doug Sosa: Well, i was relieved to be able to make sense of body language, thought style and body for real.
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, some avatars have more control over their SL "body" language than others
doug Sosa: Paradise, got a thought?
Paradise Tennant: well .. I have met a fair number of sl people in rl .
stevenaia Michinaga: I have as well
Paradise Tennant: always find they are who you know .. in a slightly different package but not really that different
Benedizione Vita: it would be interesting to give people personality tests in rl and sl and compare results
Paradise Tennant: they would be the same
Paradise Tennant: same people
Paradise Tennant: people
--BELL--
Paradise Tennant: just slightly different presentation
Benedizione Vita: sorry about that
Benedizione Vita: apparently the keyboard shortcut for show all windows in osx is also laugh...
Paradise Tennant: did you do any dream work in the retreat I understand maxine is interested in lucid dreaming ?
doug Sosa: lots of dream talk. people seemed to let reflections meld into dreams, or dram like states. Why do you ask?
doug Sosa: hope that wasn't harsh..
Paradise Tennant: just wondered .. what the topics were ?
Paradise Tennant: seemed a likely one
doug Sosa: Maxine pays lots of attention to her dreams and seems very good at remembering them.
doug Sosa: topics i think i shouldn't go into.. grey area.
Benedizione Vita: am I missing part of the conversation?
doug Sosa: must have wore everyone out though as i think i am the only one from the retreat who is here.
Pila Mulligan: you go tto drive home, Doug
Paradise Tennant: I would guess .. that many have to catch up with rl stuff ? being away for a week is a long time :)
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, and this seems to be a week of questions from those who weren;t there
Paradise Tennant: well the curious :)
doug Sosa: in my case it was amazing, back in time to rive back down again for a silicon valley big shot party. What a difference in pace and mutual awareness.
Pila Mulligan: :)
Paradise Tennant: big shot party's are highly overrated :)) though often the food is good :)
Paradise Tennant: *parties
doug Sosa: i was struck byhow many were also successful musicians.
Benedizione Vita: do you find that people get drunk faster at big shot parties as well?
doug Sosa: i saw little drining, no dizziness.
doug Sosa: drinking
doug Sosa: many had children there.
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Fox
Paradise Tennant: hiya fox
Fox Monacular: hello everyone
Pila Mulligan: hi Fox
Benedizione Vita: hello fox
doug Sosa: :)
Pila Mulligan: ah, symmetry :)
Fox Monacular: :)
Benedizione Vita: ah! very nice avatar! this is the creature from the film... what film is it?
doug Sosa: not quite
Fox Monacular: spirited away by myazaki
doug Sosa: oh, yes..
Benedizione Vita: yes, that one!
Benedizione Vita: what a splendid idea
Fox Monacular: yes, I thought my RL avatar is human already... so in SL... something else:)
Paradise Tennant: :) would be very interesting if you rl avatar was not human ! :))
Benedizione Vita: why this one in particular, rather than haku or one of the other characters?
Fox Monacular: it was free
Benedizione Vita: hahaha
Fox Monacular: :)
Paradise Tennant: lol
stevenaia Michinaga: brb
Benedizione Vita: anyways, I had best be back to my quantum mechanics
Benedizione Vita: goodnight, all!
Paradise Tennant: :)
Benedizione Vita: or good morning, depending on wher eyou may be
Paradise Tennant: good nite .. bene :)
Fox Monacular: take care
Paradise Tennant: enjoy the math !
Fox Monacular: care
Benedizione Vita: thanks, all
Benedizione Vita: I'll drop you a note sosa :)
Pila Mulligan: bye
doug Sosa: yes i need to go cook :) bye at the bell.
Paradise Tennant: good nite doug :))
Pila Mulligan: bye Doug
Paradise Tennant: well what would we like to talk about ?
--BELL--
stevenaia Michinaga: back, hmmm everyone leaving?
stevenaia Michinaga: and re-arranging
Paradise Tennant: we are in symmetry :)
Fox Monacular: nice:)
Paradise Tennant: been reading dilgo khyentse the heart treasure of hte enlightened ones .. had by bedside for a long time .. just getting into it now ..very powerful prose
Fox Monacular: what is it about?
Paradise Tennant: so much grace and confidence in his ideas
Paradise Tennant: hmm how to become enlightened .. see through samsara .which incidently does not really exist .. :)
Pila Mulligan: he has been reborn I hear
Paradise Tennant: be aware of the totality .. the purity of all phenomena
Paradise Tennant: oh cool
Paradise Tennant: where
stevenaia Michinaga: http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductDetail.asp?PID=4896
Pila Mulligan: I'm not sure, a buddhist friend told me
Fox Monacular: thanks, I was just reading this too
Fox Monacular: do you think in 21st century some of the lamas could be reborn as women?
Pila Mulligan: sure
Paradise Tennant: :)) happy news
stevenaia Michinaga: I was reading about that possibility somewhere , or even found before the death of the current lama
Pila Mulligan: hmm, found before?
stevenaia Michinaga: nods
Pila Mulligan: seems improbable logically
Paradise Tennant: " there is no thought . that is something other than voidness if you recognize the void nature of thoughts at the very moment they arise they wil dissolve ..
stevenaia Michinaga: times seem to change what is possible
Pila Mulligan: trying to imagine how one soul fills two bodies, if that is the idea
Fox Monacular: dalai lama seems to be moving in the direction to accept women lamas
Fox Monacular: sorry, i was lagging, it was an aol comment
Fox Monacular: old
Paradise Tennant: sexism and enlightenment .. I suspect are at odds :)
Pila Mulligan: :)
Paradise Tennant: no worries
Paradise Tennant: I think I will have to read this a few times ..
Pila Mulligan: SL is a tricketer in reordering comments
Paradise Tennant: feels like only little bits are getting in
Pila Mulligan: trickster*
Paradise Tennant: loves typos
Paradise Tennant: so much fun sometimes ..we can invent new words ..
stevenaia Michinaga: other times there are unintended freudian slips :)
Paradise Tennant: I think the lamas just scoot through the bardos .. like they have a flashlight and a map and poop right back into the world where they are needed most
Pila Mulligan: typo :)
Fox Monacular: :)
Pila Mulligan: back into the pooping world
Paradise Tennant: lol
Fox Monacular: yes!:) pooping samsara
Pila Mulligan: Freudian indeed
Fox Monacular: typo:)
--BELL--
Pila Mulligan: :)
Paradise Tennant: spent the day today .. whilst doing laundry ..cooking .. and other chores trying to visualize the void .. :)) .. almost makes housework nonsensical :)
Pila Mulligan: :)
Paradise Tennant: :) a make work project
Pila Mulligan: did you have a vision?
Pila Mulligan: or arrive at an idea/image
Paradise Tennant: hm think I have an idea of what the void feels like
Pila Mulligan: empty?
Paradise Tennant: get a vertigo condition sometimes if I get really dehydrated ..puts your inner ear out of whack
stevenaia Michinaga: complete?
Pila Mulligan: yes, I've had that kind of ear-wacko vertigo
Paradise Tennant: you can look a the room you are sitting in ..and it is like the vertical hold button has broken the image flips
Fox Monacular: I can't wrap my mind around void... since I learned about zero ....
Paradise Tennant: if it really is bad ...it flips on a variety of axis and it feels like you are tumbling through space whilst you are lying in bed
Pila Mulligan: yep, been there
Paradise Tennant: pretty much feels like a void ;)
Pila Mulligan: what is there about zero Fox?
stevenaia Michinaga: I remember that feeling from my youth, and when my son also told me about it
Fox Monacular: how can there be nothing... of anything
Pila Mulligan: a riddle?
Fox Monacular: :) a pre-school existential crisis
Pila Mulligan: the total number of elephants in my living room = 0
Paradise Tennant: phenomena is both empty and form .. one and the same .. created by our senses..
Pila Mulligan: for now any way
Paradise Tennant: if your sense go out of whack .. the forms .. go out of wack lol
Paradise Tennant: would love to see an elephant in pila's living room
Pila Mulligan: is it the forms or their coherence?
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: maybe some day
Fox Monacular: yes, but how can you be really sure...
Pila Mulligan: my eyes still work :)
Paradise Tennant: we create the world that we think of as substantive and real with our brains .. just not sure how that works if your brain is not substantive and real
Paradise Tennant: lol
Fox Monacular: :)
Fox Monacular: it's not just the brain I thin... it's also body and environment
Pila Mulligan: I think we look to abstractions in part to pacify the mind
Fox Monacular: I agree, Pila
Paradise Tennant: on some level .. the mind is a something :::
stevenaia Michinaga: why... cause you can ask it?
Fox Monacular: or maybe the mind is a process
Pila Mulligan: people have personalities. minds seem to reflect those same traits
Fox Monacular: are they fixed? or perhaps change over time?
Pila Mulligan: this one is ethereal, this one is scientific, thisone likes to dance
Pila Mulligan: I'm sure mine changed
Fox Monacular: I thought i was scientific... but now i'm pretty sure I'm a humanities person
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: dreams could do that :)
Fox Monacular: :) for sure, and some actually did...
Pila Mulligan: dreams certainly played a role in changing my views
Fox Monacular: how did that happen?
Pila Mulligan: well, easy to relate to this way maybe: part a Pila seens waking world fixed and dream world in flux
Pila Mulligan: part b Pila seems dream world fixed
Pila Mulligan: at that point the waking world lost some statuts
stevenaia Michinaga: how long ago?
Pila Mulligan: 30 years :)
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
Fox Monacular: that's interesting
Fox Monacular: as your waking world lost some status, did your dream world gain some?
Pila Mulligan: some yes
Pila Mulligan: but they both became more integrated
Pila Mulligan: so they shared the loss and the gain
--BELL--
stevenaia Michinaga: unfortunately I must go
Pila Mulligan: bye Steve, have a nice evening
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
Paradise Tennant: nite nite steve :)
Fox Monacular: take care Steve
Fox Monacular: Paradise, do you think void resembles dreamless sleep?
Paradise Tennant: no
Paradise Tennant: it is ... just empty space .. it the empty before space
Paradise Tennant: *not just empty space but the empty before space
Paradise Tennant: space has to have parameters .. the void has no parameters
Pila Mulligan: can we please try to define 'void' in this context -- what are we describing
Pila Mulligan: the moments of death?
Paradise Tennant: true reality
Pila Mulligan: ok
Pila Mulligan: live and die?
Fox Monacular: right, what I meant was perhaps the feeling of void from our own subjectivity
Pila Mulligan: d*
Pila Mulligan: so Void = Reality
Fox Monacular: but reality is not void...?
Pila Mulligan: Fox, this may be what Chinese call the 10,000 things, to keep the context in Paradise's terms
Paradise Tennant: depends on who you listen to
Pila Mulligan: so there is the void, filled with the 10,000 things
Fox Monacular: right
Pila Mulligan: is this clos eto your idea Paradise?
Pila Mulligan: )I'm listening to you:)
Paradise Tennant: sorry hard to express
Pila Mulligan: 'the empty before space'
Pila Mulligan: this happens to be one of my mind's favorite treats
Paradise Tennant: naked void awareness .. is the term dilgo uses
Pila Mulligan: what do you suppose he meant?
Paradise Tennant: recognizing that samsara our earthly world .. and nirvana .. are both the creation of thought and thought is part of the void in reality .. sigh ...
Paradise Tennant: blinks
Pila Mulligan: :) sigh
Paradise Tennant: so hard to wrap our little tiny minds around that one !
Pila Mulligan: col dit be really simple?
Pila Mulligan: could*
Pila Mulligan: naked void awareness
Fox Monacular: naked void is when you remove the 10 000 things?
Paradise Tennant: at least all the clothes and shoes :)
Pila Mulligan: what is left?
Paradise Tennant: the nature of mind
Pila Mulligan: what is the essential nature of mind?
Pila Mulligan: don't worry or think about it
Fox Monacular: change
Pila Mulligan: change is what?
Pila Mulligan: this is not trickery
Fox Monacular: essential nature
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: I'd say the essential nature of mind is perception
Pila Mulligan: including the perception of change
--BELL--
Pila Mulligan: does that work with you?
Paradise Tennant: nope it is the empty before space .. it is the mirror which plays perception
Fox Monacular: what about sense making?
Paradise Tennant: lol
Paradise Tennant: fox ..lovely question :)))))
Pila Mulligan: naked void awareness of the empty before space makes sense i the simplest context to me
Fox Monacular: i mean we experience something and we make sense of it as void or change?
Pila Mulligan: our experience is an accumulation of perceptions
Fox Monacular: accumulation of perceptions through the lens of our sense-making apparatus perhaps?
Pila Mulligan: yes
Pila Mulligan: our perceptions fill up space
Paradise Tennant: eats a cookie .. happy in her senses :)
Fox Monacular: but how do we start making sense? what determines it?
Pila Mulligan: continuity
Pila Mulligan: observed continuity
Pila Mulligan: even if false
Fox Monacular: but do you think it is universal for human mind, or culture and context dependent?
Fox Monacular: yes, I see what you mean
Pila Mulligan: the latter
Pila Mulligan: and a l;ittle the former
Fox Monacular: right:)
Pila Mulligan: mostly context
Pila Mulligan: we give significance to things
Pila Mulligan: it is not inherent in things to have signifcance
Pila Mulligan: we make that an attribute of our perception
Pila Mulligan: oh, this is significant
Fox Monacular: right, things before us have data, but we attribute information to them
Pila Mulligan: and from that we construct sace
Pila Mulligan: space
Pila Mulligan: as a perception
Fox Monacular: what do you think is the difference between perception and sensation?
Pila Mulligan: maybe none
Pila Mulligan: maybe none
Pila Mulligan: yet there seem to be 'universal' perceptions in the human mind
Pila Mulligan: mountain, sea, clouds, hot, cold, light, dark
Fox Monacular: right, like face recognition
Pila Mulligan: so those are real by consensus
Fox Monacular: through learning
Pila Mulligan: and expereince :)
Pila Mulligan: sea, swim
Pila Mulligan: mountain, climb
Pila Mulligan: clouds, fly
Fox Monacular: dark, monsters:)
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: eeek
Pila Mulligan: now let's let those things be then, simply be
Pila Mulligan: what are they when we just let them be?
Pila Mulligan: answer: a form
Fox Monacular: nothing, really
Pila Mulligan: a mountain form, a clud form, etc
Pila Mulligan: an empty form
Fox Monacular: form is also a property... perhaps just stuff...
Pila Mulligan: here, I'm saying a shape then
Pila Mulligan: an image
Pila Mulligan: an empty shape or image
Pila Mulligan: until we fill it up
Paradise Tennant: ..to recognize the continuity and all pervasiveness of this void nature.. this absence of any true existence is to recognize absolute truth.. this is the natural state of mind .. untouched by any obscuration.. in which all phenomena are seen a the buddha sees them .. as dreams or magical illusions ..
Pila Mulligan: 'the empty before space'
Pila Mulligan: naked void awareness
Fox Monacular: so to see this one has to clearly get un-attached to all things, and recognize that everything is the same, including the very mind
Paradise Tennant: hmm yes
Pila Mulligan: well, and to stop filling them up
Fox Monacular: right
Paradise Tennant: lol
Paradise Tennant: we be right on it :))
Fox Monacular: sounds easy
Pila Mulligan: the magical illusions do not disappear
Fox Monacular: :))
Pila Mulligan: pass the tea please :)
Paradise Tennant: shares her oatmeal cookies :))
Pila Mulligan: thank you
--BELL--
Fox Monacular: my neighbors are noisy again... think time I'll think of them as a magical illusion
Pila Mulligan: oops was that aplant I just gave you paradise?
Pila Mulligan: meant ot be tea
Pila Mulligan: :)
Fox Monacular: thank you
Pila Mulligan: thanks
Pila Mulligan: noisy neighbors are horrible
Fox Monacular: yes... and they bbq on our shared balcony
Pila Mulligan: ah, smelly too then
Fox Monacular: so next time the noise wakes my baby up, i'll just tell her - chill out, it's just a magical illusion:)
Paradise Tennant: :))
Fox Monacular: yes... and I'm a vegetarian...
Paradise Tennant: yep
Pila Mulligan: imagine it was not long ago when people would go for months in quiet places with no neighors at all
Paradise Tennant: and long for the noise
Fox Monacular: it's quite amazing
Pila Mulligan: maybe see a traveller a few times a year
Paradise Tennant: and the news of town
Fox Monacular: it felt a little bit like this in a silent retreat
Pila Mulligan: do you know what the earth's population was fror most of the time since 2000 years ago?
Fox Monacular: how many people?
Pila Mulligan: 300,000,000 people
Pila Mulligan: 300 million
Fox Monacular: wow, cool
Pila Mulligan: we are on our way now to a peak of 10 Billion
Pila Mulligan: it was hygiene and antibiotics
Pila Mulligan: set off the explosion
Fox Monacular: hard to imagine so many people...
Pila Mulligan: then by about 1990 birth control stopped the rapid rate of expansion
Paradise Tennant: ahh bathing was a bad idea ..
Pila Mulligan: so we will peak this century at around 10 Billion by most estimates
Fox Monacular: I knew it
Paradise Tennant: lol
Fox Monacular: and then what? the rapture?
Pila Mulligan: then the population will decrease and there will be fewer noisy neighbors
Paradise Tennant: lol the laundry :)
Pila Mulligan: and think of this ....
Pila Mulligan: the economy opportunites will bein resoration
Pila Mulligan: restoring natural areas
Paradise Tennant: sadly I have to scoot .. the dog is making a ruckus .. and tomorrow is a work day .. thank you two .. enjoyed it !
Pila Mulligan: empty buildings becemo parks
Pila Mulligan: bye Paradise, thank you
Fox Monacular: bye Paradise , take care
Fox Monacular: ecological utopia:)
Pila Mulligan: aloha `oe
Paradise Tennant: be well :)))
Paradise Tennant: aloha 'oe
Pila Mulligan: well, with more economic opportunites in environmental preservation/restoration it will be better
Fox Monacular: for sure, but first something will have to happen to a couple billion people
Pila Mulligan: yes, this presumes we avoid the disasters and death rates reduce them to birth rate replenishment
Pila Mulligan: the birth rate is already there I believe
Fox Monacular: I don't know about the birth rate though... many fundamentalist groups even in countries where birth control is cheap and readily available seem to want more children
Pila Mulligan: yes, but as a world average I think we are ok
Pila Mulligan: the thing that surprised the demographers seem to have been how quickly third world women embraced birth control
Fox Monacular: perhaps.... I know that in Russia the demographics are in the negative now... but that's simply because life
Fox Monacular: is too hard
Pila Mulligan: they thought third world woen would want to spend their whole lives making babies
Pila Mulligan: yes
Pila Mulligan: that was what the demographers missed
Fox Monacular: interesting, I guess the demographers were no feminists
Pila Mulligan: it is hard to live in most places
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: yes, it does seem like 2+2=4, doesn't it
Pila Mulligan: http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/idb/worldpopinfo.php
Pila Mulligan: I got into this about ten years ago
Pila Mulligan: may have forgotten or misrttaed it
Fox Monacular: yes, but it's not what it seems:)
Fox Monacular: oh, thanks, cool link
Pila Mulligan: this one shows the birth rate incremental change oin 1990 -- http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/idb/worldpopchggraph.php
Pila Mulligan: but that is the rate of change, not population total
Pila Mulligan: total still goes up
Fox Monacular: oh, ok
Pila Mulligan: on veloicty
--BELL--
Fox Monacular: right
Fox Monacular: thanks for the conversation, Pila, I have to go catch some sleep while my baby's sleeping too:)
Pila Mulligan: ok, sweet dreams Fox, nice chatting with you
Fox Monacular: good night, Pila, see you next time
Pila Mulligan: aloha `oe
Fox Monacular: aloha 'oe