2009.08.30 19:00 - Void Nature

    Table of contents
    No headers

    The Guardian for this meeting was stevenaia Michinaga. The comments are by stevenaia Michinaga.


    stevenaia Michinaga: hello bene
    Benedizione Vita: whats up steve
    Benedizione Vita: ah, my old friend doug sosa
    Benedizione Vita: long time no see
    stevenaia Michinaga: just got here
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: hi doug
    doug Sosa: hi..? gettin old, did you go by different name?
    doug Sosa: (to vita).
    Benedizione Vita: I once wrote a newspaper about our qwaq activities, but I'll remain anonymous in SL ;^)
    doug Sosa: ah, so, well, maybe I am younger than I thought after all.
    stevenaia Michinaga: going to be an interesting week listening to everyones description of the retreat last week
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Pila
    Benedizione Vita: who conducted the retreat?
    Benedizione Vita: stim?
    doug Sosa: so vita, do email me and catch up.
    stevenaia Michinaga: doug was there.. did anyone conduct it?
    doug Sosa: well, Piet sort of, but very cooperative.
    Benedizione Vita: would be my pleasure, sosa
    Benedizione Vita: ah, so pema was there
    Benedizione Vita: where was it held in RL?
    Pila Mulligan: hi folks
    Benedizione Vita: I haven't seen pema in a while
    Benedizione Vita: hi pila
    doug Sosa: piet set frameworks, we then reflected on them for ten, twenty minutes or so, then talked about our experience for half hour, hour..
    Benedizione Vita: how many avatars?
    doug Sosa: well, in the meeting None! but 12 people together.
    doug Sosa: people left their SL's home.
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: Hello Paradise
    doug Sosa: ah paradise was a missing ingredient. :)
    Pila Mulligan: hi Paradise
    Benedizione Vita: hello paradise
    Paradise Tennant: hello everyone :))
    Paradise Tennant: :)
    Paradise Tennant: so doug you are home and feeling refreshed :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: curious what was to happen next?
    doug Sosa: well, it was pretty relaxed, but lot of psychic input made it tiring. There was a beautiful pool there so i went in about five times a day!!
    Paradise Tennant: nice !
    stevenaia Michinaga: post retreat, other than the "book"
    doug Sosa: next?
    doug Sosa: ah, just reports byt the participants, nothing formal.
    Benedizione Vita: was anyone else I would know there, sosa?
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, they are very interesting, so many perspectives and presentation styles so far
    doug Sosa: steve, i think that is all (different steve)..
    Benedizione Vita: stem?
    doug Sosa: yessiree.
    Benedizione Vita: interesting
    Benedizione Vita: I saw him earlier today
    Benedizione Vita: does anything of your experience strike you at the moment as sharable, doug?
    Benedizione Vita: of the retreat, I mean
    doug Sosa: well, the men were all 40 lbs lighter.
    Benedizione Vita: fasting?
    doug Sosa: i mean than here in SL.
    Benedizione Vita: hahahaha
    doug Sosa: i mean than in RL.. what do I mean?
    Benedizione Vita: SL adds some extra height and muscles, I suppose?
    doug Sosa: seems so.
    Benedizione Vita: imagine that
    stevenaia Michinaga: ya think
    Benedizione Vita: had you met everyone in RL before the retreat, doug?
    doug Sosa: No, only two.
    Benedizione Vita: incidentally I just realized I have never met you in RL haha
    Benedizione Vita: how was that, to encounter the RL versions of your SL collaborators?
    doug Sosa: you mean yu don' look like qwaq avatar? So I've got to think of all three of you.
    doug Sosa: Well, i was relieved to be able to make sense of body language, thought style and body for real.
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, some avatars have more control over their SL "body" language than others
    doug Sosa: Paradise, got a thought?
    Paradise Tennant: well .. I have met a fair number of sl people in rl .
    stevenaia Michinaga: I have as well
    Paradise Tennant: always find they are who you know .. in a slightly different package but not really that different
    Benedizione Vita: it would be interesting to give people personality tests in rl and sl and compare results
    Paradise Tennant: they would be the same
    Paradise Tennant: same people
    Paradise Tennant: people
    Paradise Tennant: just slightly different presentation
    Benedizione Vita: sorry about that
    Benedizione Vita: apparently the keyboard shortcut for show all windows in osx is also laugh...
    Paradise Tennant: did you do any dream work in the retreat I understand maxine is interested in lucid dreaming ?
    doug Sosa: lots of dream talk. people seemed to let reflections meld into dreams, or dram like states. Why do you ask?
    doug Sosa: hope that wasn't harsh..
    Paradise Tennant: just wondered .. what the topics were ?
    Paradise Tennant: seemed a likely one
    doug Sosa: Maxine pays lots of attention to her dreams and seems very good at remembering them.
    doug Sosa: topics i think i shouldn't go into.. grey area.
    Benedizione Vita: am I missing part of the conversation?
    doug Sosa: must have wore everyone out though as i think i am the only one from the retreat who is here.
    Pila Mulligan: you go tto drive home, Doug
    Paradise Tennant: I would guess .. that many have to catch up with rl stuff ? being away for a week is a long time :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, and this seems to be a week of questions from those who weren;t there
    Paradise Tennant: well the curious :)
    doug Sosa: in my case it was amazing, back in time to rive back down again for a silicon valley big shot party. What a difference in pace and mutual awareness.
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Paradise Tennant: big shot party's are highly overrated :)) though often the food is good :)
    Paradise Tennant: *parties
    doug Sosa: i was struck byhow many were also successful musicians.
    Benedizione Vita: do you find that people get drunk faster at big shot parties as well?
    doug Sosa: i saw little drining, no dizziness.
    doug Sosa: drinking
    doug Sosa: many had children there.
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Fox
    Paradise Tennant: hiya fox
    Fox Monacular: hello everyone
    Pila Mulligan: hi Fox
    Benedizione Vita: hello fox
    doug Sosa: :)
    Pila Mulligan: ah, symmetry :)
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Benedizione Vita: ah! very nice avatar! this is the creature from the film... what film is it?
    doug Sosa: not quite
    Fox Monacular: spirited away by myazaki
    doug Sosa: oh, yes..
    Benedizione Vita: yes, that one!
    Benedizione Vita: what a splendid idea
    Fox Monacular: yes, I thought my RL avatar is human already... so in SL... something else:)
    Paradise Tennant: :) would be very interesting if you rl avatar was not human ! :))
    Benedizione Vita: why this one in particular, rather than haku or one of the other characters?
    Fox Monacular: it was free
    Benedizione Vita: hahaha
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Paradise Tennant: lol
    stevenaia Michinaga: brb
    Benedizione Vita: anyways, I had best be back to my quantum mechanics
    Benedizione Vita: goodnight, all!
    Paradise Tennant: :)
    Benedizione Vita: or good morning, depending on wher eyou may be
    Paradise Tennant: good nite .. bene :)
    Fox Monacular: take care
    Paradise Tennant: enjoy the math !
    Fox Monacular: care
    Benedizione Vita: thanks, all
    Benedizione Vita: I'll drop you a note sosa :)
    Pila Mulligan: bye
    doug Sosa: yes i need to go cook :) bye at the bell.
    Paradise Tennant: good nite doug :))
    Pila Mulligan: bye Doug
    Paradise Tennant: well what would we like to talk about ?
    stevenaia Michinaga: back, hmmm everyone leaving?
    stevenaia Michinaga: and re-arranging
    Paradise Tennant: we are in symmetry :)
    Fox Monacular: nice:)
    Paradise Tennant: been reading dilgo khyentse the heart treasure of hte enlightened ones .. had by bedside for a long time .. just getting into it now ..very powerful prose
    Fox Monacular: what is it about?
    Paradise Tennant: so much grace and confidence in his ideas
    Paradise Tennant: hmm how to become enlightened .. see through samsara .which incidently does not really exist .. :)
    Pila Mulligan: he has been reborn I hear
    Paradise Tennant: be aware of the totality .. the purity of all phenomena
    Paradise Tennant: oh cool
    Paradise Tennant: where
    stevenaia Michinaga: http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductDetail.asp?PID=4896
    Pila Mulligan: I'm not sure, a buddhist friend told me
    Fox Monacular: thanks, I was just reading this too
    Fox Monacular: do you think in 21st century some of the lamas could be reborn as women?
    Pila Mulligan: sure
    Paradise Tennant: :)) happy news
    stevenaia Michinaga: I was reading about that possibility somewhere , or even found before the death of the current lama
    Pila Mulligan: hmm, found before?
    stevenaia Michinaga: nods
    Pila Mulligan: seems improbable logically
    Paradise Tennant: " there is no thought . that is something other than voidness if you recognize the void nature of thoughts at the very moment they arise they wil dissolve ..
    stevenaia Michinaga: times seem to change what is possible
    Pila Mulligan: trying to imagine how one soul fills two bodies, if that is the idea
    Fox Monacular: dalai lama seems to be moving in the direction to accept women lamas
    Fox Monacular: sorry, i was lagging, it was an aol comment
    Fox Monacular: old
    Paradise Tennant: sexism and enlightenment .. I suspect are at odds :)
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Paradise Tennant: no worries
    Paradise Tennant: I think I will have to read this a few times ..
    Pila Mulligan: SL is a tricketer in reordering comments
    Paradise Tennant: feels like only little bits are getting in
    Pila Mulligan: trickster*
    Paradise Tennant: loves typos
    Paradise Tennant: so much fun sometimes ..we can invent new words ..
    stevenaia Michinaga: other times there are unintended freudian slips :)
    Paradise Tennant: I think the lamas just scoot through the bardos .. like they have a flashlight and a map and poop right back into the world where they are needed most
    Pila Mulligan: typo :)
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Pila Mulligan: back into the pooping world
    Paradise Tennant: lol
    Fox Monacular: yes!:) pooping samsara
    Pila Mulligan: Freudian indeed
    Fox Monacular: typo:)
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Paradise Tennant: spent the day today .. whilst doing laundry ..cooking .. and other chores trying to visualize the void .. :)) .. almost makes housework nonsensical :)
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Paradise Tennant: :) a make work project
    Pila Mulligan: did you have a vision?
    Pila Mulligan: or arrive at an idea/image
    Paradise Tennant: hm think I have an idea of what the void feels like
    Pila Mulligan: empty?
    Paradise Tennant: get a vertigo condition sometimes if I get really dehydrated ..puts your inner ear out of whack
    stevenaia Michinaga: complete?
    Pila Mulligan: yes, I've had that kind of ear-wacko vertigo
    Paradise Tennant: you can look a the room you are sitting in ..and it is like the vertical hold button has broken the image flips
    Fox Monacular: I can't wrap my mind around void... since I learned about zero ....
    Paradise Tennant: if it really is bad ...it flips on a variety of axis and it feels like you are tumbling through space whilst you are lying in bed
    Pila Mulligan: yep, been there
    Paradise Tennant: pretty much feels like a void ;)
    Pila Mulligan: what is there about zero Fox?
    stevenaia Michinaga: I remember that feeling from my youth, and when my son also told me about it
    Fox Monacular: how can there be nothing... of anything
    Pila Mulligan: a riddle?
    Fox Monacular: :) a pre-school existential crisis
    Pila Mulligan: the total number of elephants in my living room = 0
    Paradise Tennant: phenomena is both empty and form .. one and the same .. created by our senses..
    Pila Mulligan: for now any way
    Paradise Tennant: if your sense go out of whack .. the forms .. go out of wack lol
    Paradise Tennant: would love to see an elephant in pila's living room
    Pila Mulligan: is it the forms or their coherence?
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: maybe some day
    Fox Monacular: yes, but how can you be really sure...
    Pila Mulligan: my eyes still work :)
    Paradise Tennant: we create the world that we think of as substantive and real with our brains .. just not sure how that works if your brain is not substantive and real
    Paradise Tennant: lol
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Fox Monacular: it's not just the brain I thin... it's also body and environment
    Pila Mulligan: I think we look to abstractions in part to pacify the mind
    Fox Monacular: I agree, Pila
    Paradise Tennant: on some level .. the mind is a something :::
    stevenaia Michinaga: why... cause you can ask it?
    Fox Monacular: or maybe the mind is a process
    Pila Mulligan: people have personalities. minds seem to reflect those same traits
    Fox Monacular: are they fixed? or perhaps change over time?
    Pila Mulligan: this one is ethereal, this one is scientific, thisone likes to dance
    Pila Mulligan: I'm sure mine changed
    Fox Monacular: I thought i was scientific... but now i'm pretty sure I'm a humanities person
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: dreams could do that :)
    Fox Monacular: :) for sure, and some actually did...
    Pila Mulligan: dreams certainly played a role in changing my views
    Fox Monacular: how did that happen?
    Pila Mulligan: well, easy to relate to this way maybe: part a Pila seens waking world fixed and dream world in flux
    Pila Mulligan: part b Pila seems dream world fixed
    Pila Mulligan: at that point the waking world lost some statuts
    stevenaia Michinaga: how long ago?
    Pila Mulligan: 30 years :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Fox Monacular: that's interesting
    Fox Monacular: as your waking world lost some status, did your dream world gain some?
    Pila Mulligan: some yes
    Pila Mulligan: but they both became more integrated
    Pila Mulligan: so they shared the loss and the gain
    stevenaia Michinaga: unfortunately I must go
    Pila Mulligan: bye Steve, have a nice evening
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Paradise Tennant: nite nite steve :)
    Fox Monacular: take care Steve
    Fox Monacular: Paradise, do you think void resembles dreamless sleep?
    Paradise Tennant: no
    Paradise Tennant: it is ... just empty space .. it the empty before space
    Paradise Tennant: *not just empty space but the empty before space
    Paradise Tennant: space has to have parameters .. the void has no parameters
    Pila Mulligan: can we please try to define 'void' in this context -- what are we describing
    Pila Mulligan: the moments of death?
    Paradise Tennant: true reality
    Pila Mulligan: ok
    Pila Mulligan: live and die?
    Fox Monacular: right, what I meant was perhaps the feeling of void from our own subjectivity
    Pila Mulligan: d*
    Pila Mulligan: so Void = Reality
    Fox Monacular: but reality is not void...?
    Pila Mulligan: Fox, this may be what Chinese call the 10,000 things, to keep the context in Paradise's terms
    Paradise Tennant: depends on who you listen to
    Pila Mulligan: so there is the void, filled with the 10,000 things
    Fox Monacular: right
    Pila Mulligan: is this clos eto your idea Paradise?
    Pila Mulligan: )I'm listening to you:)
    Paradise Tennant: sorry hard to express
    Pila Mulligan: 'the empty before space'
    Pila Mulligan: this happens to be one of my mind's favorite treats
    Paradise Tennant: naked void awareness .. is the term dilgo uses
    Pila Mulligan: what do you suppose he meant?
    Paradise Tennant: recognizing that samsara our earthly world .. and nirvana .. are both the creation of thought and thought is part of the void in reality .. sigh ...
    Paradise Tennant: blinks
    Pila Mulligan: :) sigh
    Paradise Tennant: so hard to wrap our little tiny minds around that one !
    Pila Mulligan: col dit be really simple?
    Pila Mulligan: could*
    Pila Mulligan: naked void awareness
    Fox Monacular: naked void is when you remove the 10 000 things?
    Paradise Tennant: at least all the clothes and shoes :)
    Pila Mulligan: what is left?
    Paradise Tennant: the nature of mind
    Pila Mulligan: what is the essential nature of mind?
    Pila Mulligan: don't worry or think about it
    Fox Monacular: change
    Pila Mulligan: change is what?
    Pila Mulligan: this is not trickery
    Fox Monacular: essential nature
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: I'd say the essential nature of mind is perception
    Pila Mulligan: including the perception of change
    Pila Mulligan: does that work with you?
    Paradise Tennant: nope it is the empty before space .. it is the mirror which plays perception
    Fox Monacular: what about sense making?
    Paradise Tennant: lol
    Paradise Tennant: fox ..lovely question :)))))
    Pila Mulligan: naked void awareness of the empty before space makes sense i the simplest context to me
    Fox Monacular: i mean we experience something and we make sense of it as void or change?
    Pila Mulligan: our experience is an accumulation of perceptions
    Fox Monacular: accumulation of perceptions through the lens of our sense-making apparatus perhaps?
    Pila Mulligan: yes
    Pila Mulligan: our perceptions fill up space
    Paradise Tennant: eats a cookie .. happy in her senses :)
    Fox Monacular: but how do we start making sense? what determines it?
    Pila Mulligan: continuity
    Pila Mulligan: observed continuity
    Pila Mulligan: even if false
    Fox Monacular: but do you think it is universal for human mind, or culture and context dependent?
    Fox Monacular: yes, I see what you mean
    Pila Mulligan: the latter
    Pila Mulligan: and a l;ittle the former
    Fox Monacular: right:)
    Pila Mulligan: mostly context
    Pila Mulligan: we give significance to things
    Pila Mulligan: it is not inherent in things to have signifcance
    Pila Mulligan: we make that an attribute of our perception
    Pila Mulligan: oh, this is significant
    Fox Monacular: right, things before us have data, but we attribute information to them
    Pila Mulligan: and from that we construct sace
    Pila Mulligan: space
    Pila Mulligan: as a perception
    Fox Monacular: what do you think is the difference between perception and sensation?
    Pila Mulligan: maybe none
    Pila Mulligan: maybe none
    Pila Mulligan: yet there seem to be 'universal' perceptions in the human mind
    Pila Mulligan: mountain, sea, clouds, hot, cold, light, dark
    Fox Monacular: right, like face recognition
    Pila Mulligan: so those are real by consensus
    Fox Monacular: through learning
    Pila Mulligan: and expereince :)
    Pila Mulligan: sea, swim
    Pila Mulligan: mountain, climb
    Pila Mulligan: clouds, fly
    Fox Monacular: dark, monsters:)
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: eeek
    Pila Mulligan: now let's let those things be then, simply be
    Pila Mulligan: what are they when we just let them be?
    Pila Mulligan: answer: a form
    Fox Monacular: nothing, really
    Pila Mulligan: a mountain form, a clud form, etc
    Pila Mulligan: an empty form
    Fox Monacular: form is also a property... perhaps just stuff...
    Pila Mulligan: here, I'm saying a shape then
    Pila Mulligan: an image
    Pila Mulligan: an empty shape or image
    Pila Mulligan: until we fill it up
    Paradise Tennant: ..to recognize the continuity and all pervasiveness of this void nature.. this absence of any true existence is to recognize absolute truth.. this is the natural state of mind .. untouched by any obscuration.. in which all phenomena are seen a the buddha sees them .. as dreams or magical illusions ..
    Pila Mulligan: 'the empty before space'
    Pila Mulligan: naked void awareness
    Fox Monacular: so to see this one has to clearly get un-attached to all things, and recognize that everything is the same, including the very mind
    Paradise Tennant: hmm yes
    Pila Mulligan: well, and to stop filling them up
    Fox Monacular: right
    Paradise Tennant: lol
    Paradise Tennant: we be right on it :))
    Fox Monacular: sounds easy
    Pila Mulligan: the magical illusions do not disappear
    Fox Monacular: :))
    Pila Mulligan: pass the tea please :)
    Paradise Tennant: shares her oatmeal cookies :))
    Pila Mulligan: thank you
    Fox Monacular: my neighbors are noisy again... think time I'll think of them as a magical illusion
    Pila Mulligan: oops was that aplant I just gave you paradise?
    Pila Mulligan: meant ot be tea
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Fox Monacular: thank you
    Pila Mulligan: thanks
    Pila Mulligan: noisy neighbors are horrible
    Fox Monacular: yes... and they bbq on our shared balcony
    Pila Mulligan: ah, smelly too then
    Fox Monacular: so next time the noise wakes my baby up, i'll just tell her - chill out, it's just a magical illusion:)
    Paradise Tennant: :))
    Fox Monacular: yes... and I'm a vegetarian...
    Paradise Tennant: yep
    Pila Mulligan: imagine it was not long ago when people would go for months in quiet places with no neighors at all
    Paradise Tennant: and long for the noise
    Fox Monacular: it's quite amazing
    Pila Mulligan: maybe see a traveller a few times a year
    Paradise Tennant: and the news of town
    Fox Monacular: it felt a little bit like this in a silent retreat
    Pila Mulligan: do you know what the earth's population was fror most of the time since 2000 years ago?
    Fox Monacular: how many people?
    Pila Mulligan: 300,000,000 people
    Pila Mulligan: 300 million
    Fox Monacular: wow, cool
    Pila Mulligan: we are on our way now to a peak of 10 Billion
    Pila Mulligan: it was hygiene and antibiotics
    Pila Mulligan: set off the explosion
    Fox Monacular: hard to imagine so many people...
    Pila Mulligan: then by about 1990 birth control stopped the rapid rate of expansion
    Paradise Tennant: ahh bathing was a bad idea ..
    Pila Mulligan: so we will peak this century at around 10 Billion by most estimates
    Fox Monacular: I knew it
    Paradise Tennant: lol
    Fox Monacular: and then what? the rapture?
    Pila Mulligan: then the population will decrease and there will be fewer noisy neighbors
    Paradise Tennant: lol the laundry :)
    Pila Mulligan: and think of this ....
    Pila Mulligan: the economy opportunites will bein resoration
    Pila Mulligan: restoring natural areas
    Paradise Tennant: sadly I have to scoot .. the dog is making a ruckus .. and tomorrow is a work day .. thank you two .. enjoyed it !
    Pila Mulligan: empty buildings becemo parks
    Pila Mulligan: bye Paradise, thank you
    Fox Monacular: bye Paradise , take care
    Fox Monacular: ecological utopia:)
    Pila Mulligan: aloha `oe
    Paradise Tennant: be well :)))
    Paradise Tennant: aloha 'oe
    Pila Mulligan: well, with more economic opportunites in environmental preservation/restoration it will be better
    Fox Monacular: for sure, but first something will have to happen to a couple billion people
    Pila Mulligan: yes, this presumes we avoid the disasters and death rates reduce them to birth rate replenishment
    Pila Mulligan: the birth rate is already there I believe
    Fox Monacular: I don't know about the birth rate though... many fundamentalist groups even in countries where birth control is cheap and readily available seem to want more children
    Pila Mulligan: yes, but as a world average I think we are ok
    Pila Mulligan: the thing that surprised the demographers seem to have been how quickly third world women embraced birth control
    Fox Monacular: perhaps.... I know that in Russia the demographics are in the negative now... but that's simply because life
    Fox Monacular: is too hard
    Pila Mulligan: they thought third world woen would want to spend their whole lives making babies
    Pila Mulligan: yes
    Pila Mulligan: that was what the demographers missed
    Fox Monacular: interesting, I guess the demographers were no feminists
    Pila Mulligan: it is hard to live in most places
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: yes, it does seem like 2+2=4, doesn't it
    Pila Mulligan: http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/idb/worldpopinfo.php
    Pila Mulligan: I got into this about ten years ago
    Pila Mulligan: may have forgotten or misrttaed it
    Fox Monacular: yes, but it's not what it seems:)
    Fox Monacular: oh, thanks, cool link
    Pila Mulligan: this one shows the birth rate incremental change oin 1990 -- http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/idb/worldpopchggraph.php
    Pila Mulligan: but that is the rate of change, not population total
    Pila Mulligan: total still goes up
    Fox Monacular: oh, ok
    Pila Mulligan: on veloicty
    Fox Monacular: right
    Fox Monacular: thanks for the conversation, Pila, I have to go catch some sleep while my baby's sleeping too:)
    Pila Mulligan: ok, sweet dreams Fox, nice chatting with you
    Fox Monacular: good night, Pila, see you next time
    Pila Mulligan: aloha `oe
    Fox Monacular: aloha 'oe
    Tag page (Edit tags)
    You must login to post a comment.
    Powered by MindTouch Core